Will a Marantz SR8500 power 700s?

[Verinnal]

Is anyone here using an SR8500 to drive B&W 700 series speakers. I'm going to be auditioning 600s and 700s this weekend based on stunning reviews and recommendations. I'd rather not disappoint myself and listen to the 700s if the 8500 won't be enough juice to make these sound good. The room will be 14x14 with 8' ceilings. If I'm in for a big disappointment when I get these home I'll just keep the 600s on my shortlist of speakers that I'm considering and drop the 700s altogether.

I'm looking for Floorstanders (703?) for LR and the smaller 705s for the surrounds. Center channel would, of course, be the HTM7. I have a Marantz SR8500 which is rated at 125x7.

I don't have the option of getting an additional amp to juice them and probably wouldn't have that option for quite some time. I'm already pushing the limits with the fiance by looking at speakers of this price. The one thing thats saving me is B&Ws incredibly good looks.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[audioqueso]

I'm going to say yes because I am driving 805s with my SR6400 (100watts). I also auditioned the 704s with the SR7400 and it sounded great. Only difference between the 6400 and 7400 is 1 extra channel. Your 8400 has more power. You could ask your dealership if you could bring your own receiver, or even borrow the speakers. Some will let you do one or the other.

[Verinnal]

Thanks for your reply. I'll see if I can follow your advice and possibly bring my receiver with me. On side note, I was looking at the specs and the power handling requirements were 50-150 watts. The 703s are to 200w. Will this make a significant difference? Despite the amount of reading that I've done I've seen so much conflicting information with regards to what is considered sufficient power for a floorstander like the 700s.

[audioqueso]

Yes, it will be enough. But also keep in mind that a dedicated amp putting out 130 watts on a channel is going to be a lot more potent than a 150 watt from a A/V receiver. So it's not always about the number.

[Mark_C.]

For home theater, what you're looking at is plenty good. Seems like a winning combination to me.

[goalie81]

I've been to two different stores that have had 703's on the floor. The first was a big room with a 703 main/HTM7/DS7 being driven by a Rotel CD, pre and amp at 200W/channel. The second room was a tad smaller, and had the 703/HTM7/and two small white B&W's for surround, driven by a Marantz receiver at around 100W/channel with a Pioneer universal player. Sorry- I've forgotten the model- it might be yours...

I've listened to both for about 90 minutes each with almost the same discs (the big room didn't have SACD playback.) Although the 703/HTM7 speakers were the same, it's still not a true apples to apples test of course, but what the heck.

I've found that in the big room with the bigger amp, the soundfield was better, but the harder material I took sounded almost a tad compressed (specifically the track "Blackest Eyes" from Porcupine Tree.) In the smaller room the 703's sounded a tad brighter across the board, and Blackest Eyes sounded better to my ears. In fact, I could specifically hear a ride cymbal crystal clear under the distorted guitar tracks that I never noticed before.

Does this really prove anything? Who knows. But seeing that I have a 100W/channel amp (Outlaw 7100) with a smallish room too (20x10 8 ft) I feel that the 703's would fit the bill for my ears. By the by, the HTM7 sounded fantastic with the SACD material I took with me. Good luck this weekend and please post your results!

Cheers!
Marty

[Verinnal]

Thanks for the info folks. I'll be checking out the 700s tomorrow and will post my experiences and if I like what I hear I might be taking home some shiny new speakers.

[sugarmedia]

In my opinion many hi-fi amplifiers available are grossly underpowered. With speakers of anything less than 95dB efficiency it is a fact that amplifiers with less than 200 wpc are clipping (and that means distortion and non-linearities) frequently.

[Verinnal]

I appreciate everyone's help but, unfortunately, I guess it was a moot point. I went and listened to the 600s (which didn't really do it for me) then the 700s (which sounded great) and then the salesperson had the nerve to switch to the 800 series which proceeded to blow me out of my socks. I have no idea what to do now. I don't want to overextend myself financially but I fell in love with the 804 and 805s. I'm considering gettings 2 805s and a center channel to use as mains and save up for 2 804 mains at which point I'd move the 805s to the surrounds. I have an SVS PB12-ISD for a sub so I'm thinking the combo of the sub + the two bookshelves wouldn't be all that bad for a while. The big downer would be that I'd have to keep my bose acoustimass rears for a while.

Argh this is so confusing and frustrating.

[Mark_C.]

You got sucker-punched. Never wonder what a higher-priced speaker sounds like, no matter the brand, because the next thing you know you'll be trying to come up with excuses to buy them. Budget? What budget?

[Dutch in USA]

That was a brilliant move of the salesman :T
But ehh. Did you get to hear it over your amp or was it a dealer set up?
I don't know how long you think you need to stand those "B" speakers (although I cannot but bow to their marketing department...), but the shorter the better :B

[Verinnal]

Yeah, it was a serious low blow. Unfortunately I didn't get to hear it over my amp but the sales person said that he was driving the setup with a 100wpc amp. I think it was an Arcam. After thinking long and hard about it last night I might try and pick up some or all of the speakers used. They'd have to be in mint condition but I figure if I do that I won't have to settle and I can probably get the whole setup for a "reasonable" price.

Anyone on here ever picked up used high end gear? Any regrets?

[Dutch in USA]

[QUOTE=Verinnal]Yeah, it was a serious low blow. Unfortunately I didn't get to hear it over my amp but the sales person said that he was driving the setup with a 100wpc amp. I think it was an Arcam. QUOTE]

This is where he handed you another low blow...but this one I can not appreciate. He is introducing you to the world of the 800 series and then he mentions on the fly that the amp is comparable as it rates 100wpc. This statement by itself should be enough to not take this guy serious anymore. The only Arcam I know of that is an integrated 100wpc is the FMJ A32 with a $2,100 MSRP. If he was using a pre/power amp set up this will double. Your 8500 has an $1,600 MSRP. You cannot compare a dedicated stereo amp of this class with your surround amp (even though it is a great machine for what it was designed for).
While we are going down this rocky road...what source was he using?
Do not get me wrong, the 800's will still be the better speaker, but the difference will be a lot less using your current components and possibly not worth the price difference. Do not get suckered in too deep too fast. Take it step by step and enjoy the long road. Taking a shortcut can hurt more than it gives you joy. Go to a different salesman/dealer as this one is not playing a fair game.

enjoy the search!

[lidistick]

There's also the Arcam AVR 300 which is a fabulous receiver and does 100wpc x 7 and you can bi-amp the fronts...

so what was it ? :B

[Verinnal]

First of all, thanks for taking the time to respond. With a big ticket item like a set of speakers I can definitely appreciate the fact that now I have much more information and hope that I'll make a wise decision.

About what he was using:
I'm pretty sure it was a setup consisting of arcam separates. I was using a CD I burned at home with songs that were either ripped from CD into a lossless format or songs that I downloaded from the web in lossless format (flac and monkey's audio).

Dutch in the USA may have a good point that a receiver that was pumping out enough juice for the 700s might not have enough juice for the 800s. I was hoping someone could help me out with a question I have. It involves bi-amping/bi-wiring. Can someone explain to me what the difference is or how it pertains to my particular receiver. In the manual for my 8500 I have read the following snippet:



Is this bi-wiring, as the manual states, or is it bi-amping since I'd be using the power that would normally be going to the rear channels and it wouldn't be using the same outs on the receiver? Also, does this mean I'm effectively delivering 250wpc to each bi-amped speaker since the receiver is 125wpc or are the calculations done differently? I'm guessing that if this effectively delivers twice the amount of power to each speaker then I run a much better chance of providing adequate power to the 804s.

[alkalay]

Hi Verinnal,

You may call it bi-amping as each pair of terminals is fed by a differnet amp.

Unfortunately, it would not give a 250W amplification, and personally I think that to do justice with a 800 setup a pre/power is a must.

I think that aiming high is a good thing and I find your path to a 804/805 plus a 800 series' center is a good one, given that you really liked it.

Goodluck and enjoy walking the path.

Itai.

[brendon]

Hi ,I just purchased a SR7500 and it has the same bi amping feature which I am experimenting with on my B&W602s3s.As the standard 105 watts a channel is probabley ample in my small room and my speakers are not broken in yet I have not been able to hear a great deal of difference.I am suspect that actual power figures available with 7 chanels running (5.1 plus 2 channels biamping) would actually be approx 75-80 watts .I recently compared specs on the Denon 2805 (100w ch x 7) vs marantz sr7500 (105 x 7) and noted the Denons pulls a max of 290 w out of the socket and the Marantz 600w !
Brendon

[KenK]

The only problem with those power rating is they might not be telling you the whole story. They stated 105 watts a channel under 20-20k or at 1kHZ? Also what the power rate at 4 ohm? My guess is if they skip that info, most like it is 105 watts at 1kHZ driving two channels only. As B&W does down to 3.7 ohm, you need an amp that have the juice (current) and can go down to lower ohm. My old denon 4800 was able to go down to 4 ohm and it weight close to 50lb. I used it to power my old CDM9NT (with the FST driver) and I can tell you that the CDM9NT sounded better with an external amp. But if you don't listen at higher volumn, then your receiver might be ok.

[Verinnal]

KenK,
I'm not sure if this is what you're asking but the SR8500 is rated at the following on their website: Power Output (8 Ohm) 125W x 7 (<0.08%, 20 Hz - 20 kHz/THD)
The 7500 is: Power Output (8 Ohm) 105W x 7 (<0.08%, 20 Hz - 20 kHz/THD)

How does that factor into the equation? Also, how would I determine what the power rating would be at 4 ohms?

One the the reasons I picked the 8500 was because I had hoped it would have enough juice to power almost any application. I'm not quite sure what the end result is of having a "torroidal transformer" in my receiver but I was under the impression that this would help me power a set of hard to drive speakers.

[KenK]

Hi Verinnal,

Ops, I did not see that power was for 20-20k on their website. As far as 4ohm rating, the only way to tell is if someone actually tests this using a 4ohm dummy loan and measure the output. Normally, if they have good power rating at 4 ohm rating, i they would publish it.

As far as you question on Toroidal transformer, I think (MHO) Toroidal Transformers are better for audio due to space saving, lower EMI, efficiency, lower noise etc than an E-core transformer. Of cause, by selecting a receiver with Toroidal transformer, you are already getter more VA (power) than a similar size receiver with E-core transformer. IMHO, the determining factor is the entire design of the amp. For example, even with an oversize Toroidal transformer, if the output transistors are not capable in operating in 4ohm or lower it will overheat or give out much lower power. In general, the receiver with Toroidal transformer will perform better then a receiver with E-core transformer (in both 8 ohm and 4 ohm power)

I might be wrong as I am just an accountant so I am not really familiar with the real reason behind all this stuff. I kind of pick this up went I was building my own preamp and amp (60w) from scratch. My DIY amp had two big Toroidal transformers (over killed) but it did not improve RMS power at 4 ohm. But all these power things will not matter much if you don’t turn it up. Most amp sound very similar at low volume (please don’t kill me for saying this), but if you turn up the volume, then you can tell between a powerful and a weak amp.

Again, YMMV.

[Verinnal]

Ken,
Thanks much for all your info. I think its going to come down to trial and error. I.E. I hook it up and see how it sounds and hope for the best. I'm not done shopping around at different dealers. I'll need to find someone I'm comfortable with and someone that will give me a good price on a package. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll find someone that will either let me bring my receiver or will have a similar receiver that I can pair the speakers with.

As for my listening levels, I usually listen to music at around -15 to -5 on my receiver, depending on my mood. I'm not sure to what extent this would push the amp. While watching movies I'm usually at between -10 and 00, again depedning on mood, hour of the night, etc.

[KenK]

Hi Verinnal,

what kind of speakers are you using now? As the 703s are rated at 90db spl you might not need to turn up that high. I don't have any experience on your receiver, but I think i pretty loud at 00 (THX reference level if your receiver is THX certified). Also, the 703s are very similar to my old CMD9NT (just ordered the 805S last week) and an external amp should help, but different system & room, different results. Just bring your amp to your dealer, I am sure he will let you do it if you are serious about buying.

[Verinnal]

Right now I'm using a 10 year old set of bose acoustimass speakers. I don't think I'll have the option of purchasing an external amp for at least another year. I'll have to tlak to the sales guy so I can get my reciever in there and connected. Its in NYC and getting my receiver from long island to there will be a bit of a proble, but I'll figure something out.

[Verinnal]

I guess another question is would I be satisfied with 805s over 804s for music listening? Do a lot of people here have any experience for using these for like 60% music /40% movies. I'm concerned that losing the range of the 804s would be a bad thing if I was listening to music in 2 channel mode.

[weijst]

I guess another question is would I be satisfied with 805s over 804s for music listening?

I'm currently using 705's as mains (+ $500 sub). A while back I had a pair of N804's for about 2 weeks and all I can say is I can't wait to get myself a pair of floorstanders! I couldn't ignore the advantage they had over bookshelves because of their full range capabilities, especially with music. Since you mentioned a 60/40 ratio (Music/HT), I'd say, if you can stretch your budget, get those 804s right away!

Good luck and enjoy!

[KenK]

I guess another question is would I be satisfied with 805s over 804s for music listening? Do a lot of people here have any experience for using these for like 60% music /40% movies. I'm concerned that losing the range of the 804s would be a bad thing if I was listening to music in 2 channel mode.

It really depends on your personal taste and your current room. My room sucks as it is square (20 x 20), small speakers w/sub actually sound better than floorstanding. Small speakers just has less interaction with my room. Both bookselfs and floorstandings have their pros and cons and you might just have to demo them or try it out in your "own" room. Bigger does't always = better. 8O

[Verinnal]

This will most likely be the layout of the A/V room once its finished.

http://www.jasonlopes.com/room.jpg

Right now the A/V system will be upstairs. The room that the speakers will be pretty small but I heard the 804s and 805s in a dedicated listening room that was more or less the size of the room that I'll be using and they both sounded incredible.

weijst, when you pick up some floorstanders do you think you'll still be using your sub when listening to music or will you be going pure two channel with no sub.

[weijst]

...weijst, when you pick up some floorstanders do you think you'll still be using your sub when listening to music or will you be going pure two channel with no sub.

Definately without the sub!
First of all, those 804's already gave me enough bass (in my room that is as placement plays a big part in this compartment). Furthermore, my sub tends to 'stay behind' when playing music. It's ok for HT, but it's not a very musical sub. Finally, the 804's bass was a lot tighter (didn't roll of that long) compared to the sub's bass. Something I believe is prefferable with music.
Now maybe it's my sub, but the characteristic described above are not uncommon for subs; not for subs in the more affordable area that is .

[KenK]

For B&W you will need a "fast" sub like REL (expensive), but for movie, a slower sub will sound better as the effect just last sooooooo much longer. More BOOM

[Verinnal]

Right now I'm running an SVS PB12-ISD. I'm pretty happy with its performance overall but I haven't heard paired with speakers in the caliber of B&W yet so I don't know if it will be a good match. I was thinking that if I got the 804s I could just run without a sub when listening to music. Sounds like I was on the right track. Thanks folks.