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Originally posted by Andrew Pratt
Jeff Kohn
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You could fix the problem with Sub=Yes acting as Sub=Max, and you could fix the bass-doubling of two-channel analog. But I think you would lose the LFE track of any 6.1 music with this configuration, and you're also making your mains' amp work harder (which may or may not be an issue depending on how much headroom you have).
Jeff Kohn
Jeff Kohn
http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn -
edited due to answer already being posted.Comment
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I wonder if amping a full range signal really makes it that much harder then if it were getting a highs only feed from the pre amp...it could I guess but not sure how audible that would be.and you're also making your mains' amp work harder (which may or may not be an issue depending on how much headroom you have).
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It also won't work if you have a passive subwoofer. Which is the situation I have with dual Shiva's driven by an 200 W/ch amp. The signal to the sub-amp is passed through a BFD also.
I suppose I could get two plate amps and use the amp to drive the mains. But it would be sooooooooooo much easier if the bass management worked as it is supposed to. Also much cheaper!Comment
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I don't know for sure. That's just the answer people always seem to give on the net. Could be a myth though, who knows.I wonder if amping a full range signal really makes it that much harder then if it were getting a highs only feed from the pre amp...it could I guess but not sure how audible that would be.
Good point, I'm using a BFD too, and wouldn't want to give it up.The signal to the sub-amp is passed through a BFD also.
Jeff Kohn
Jeff Kohn
http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohnComment
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Poor mans solution (Non-ICBM)
Note: This fix will not help the 6.1 multi-channel input. you will need to use one of the other solutions listed in my original post or purchase a TA-P9000ES analog preamplifier.
RSP-1066 settings:
Speakers->
Setting Mains to Large
Subwoofer to No
Center to Small
Rears to Small
Backs to small
Set the subwoofer crossover to the value for your center and surrounds.
Just like I've reported in my other ICBM fix threads, do not use the subwoofer output!
You will need to have a subwoofer that has a built in crossover OR an external crossover like Paradigm's X-30.
If you read the Rotel RSP-1066 Bass Management Report, you will understand why this will work. It eliminates the 0.1 channel from the configuration. As stated in my other fix reports above, the Rotel 1066 redirects DTS and DD LFE information to the Mains defined as large when the subwoofer is set to "NO".
The Left and Right Main outputs will go to your Subwoofer crossover OR the x-30. The high-pass side will go to your Amplifier for your mains. The subwoofer will handle the low frequency information. (X-30 users will send the low frequency output to your subwoofer amplifier.)
This configuration will work for all modes except the 5.1 multi-channel input.
The downside of this arrangement is the extra LFE information bundled with the L/R mains. The crossover will only send LFE information below the cutoff frequency. The Mains handle any LFE information above the cutoff frequency.
The other issue is the debate of use of a subwoofer for music if you have capable Mains. (In my case, the mains outperform the sub on proper tonal characteristics and impulse response for music.)
Hope this helps
Dre
My little corner of the world
"ILL-PLEX 007.1"Comment
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My mains and subs are integrated into the same cabinet, like a bi-amped arrangement except the have a different source. Trough the BFD the in room response measures flat down to 16 Hz. So there's really no getting around my need to have the subs on in all cases. They were designed that way.Comment
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Bobbi,
I'm not really understanding what your saying about your arrangement.
If your Sub and speakers are using different sources, I don't see why you can't use an external crossover like the X-30 or ICBM.
Are you using the BFD on the entire full range audio signal?
Please explain more so we can help.
Dre
My little corner of the world
"ILL-PLEX 007.1"Comment
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Dre J,
An X-30 or an ICBM would definitely work in my situation. Although it does add just one more item in the chain from source to speaker that I don't believe is a good thing. I guess my real point is that I resent the possiblity of having to spend more money to get something I have already paid for.....bass management.
My partner already considereds me crazy for what I've spent on this system. My equipment already doesn't all fit in the cabinet. Telling my partner that I need to buy an ICBM or an X-30 so that bass isn't doubled would beg the question of why is it doubled. How do you explain adding more equipment instead of getting rid of a the offending unit and replacing it with something that does what even my outdated $350 JVC did correctly?
Yes I do love the sound of the Rotel, but when I said "Wow, this sounds so much better!" I got back "It sounds the same to me." So, there ya go. Impossible to justify expending more for what I already should have. I just hope that Rotel realizes that it is a problem and that they can fix it with a firmware release.Comment
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Regarding the 1066+ICBM bass management fix - In this configuration, do you lose the standard 120hz LFE channel crossover? Since the 1066 will be including the LFE info in the main channels, which is then subjected to the ICBM crossovers, will the sub only be playing LFE info below the specificed crossover points, while LFE info from the crossover point up to 120hz will be played by the main speaker?Comment
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What the arrangement does is remove the bass doubling as described in the bass management report. When the LFE information is recombined with the L/R mains, the user set crossover frequency will dictate what frequencies go to the SUB and what frequencies the Mains have to contend with.
This is the nature of the beast when trying to deal with Bass Management issues with regard to Rotel.
We would not be in this situation if the unit worked as advertised (Subwoofer "YES/MAX" and Analog Bass doubling)
Hope this helps
Dre
My little corner of the world
"ILL-PLEX 007.1"Comment
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Somewhere next month Rotel will issue a new firmware version with bassmanagement on multi input.Comment
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We are still waiting for that priority fix..........
Dre
My little corner of the world
"ILL-PLEX 007.1"Comment
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>> Somewhere next month Rotel will issue a new firmware version with bassmanagement on multi input.
Can this be true? Wouldn't that mean that either the Rotel must have an analog crossover already inside (which we all know isn't the case anyway), or else an extra digital conversion is going to take place?Comment
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Bass Management for the LPCM, 2-channel analog inputs, and the 6.1 Multi-channel analog inputs are not fixed as of yet. It is broke for everything but the DSP modes.
I thought Rotel said this was a Priority.
I'm starting to feel cheated with a device that does not meet the features outlined in the manual.
This is becoming very disappointing.
We were told that this defect would be a priority. However, the lack of response indicates this issue will not be addressed because they are not willing to take care of customers that have invested in one of there product offerings. I am beginning to think that I have been told a lie to pacify my displeasure with the bass management.
I'll be happy to talk to anyone at Rotel, again, about the broken bass management controls.
Dre J
e-mail: ill-dre (at) fuse (dot) net
My little corner of the world
"ILL-PLEX 007.1"Comment
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I agree that it would be nice to get an update on the status of the upgrade.
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OK guys and gals. I've been quietly sitting back and listening to all the double bass talk for months. Actually between the new house we bought and turning the unfinished basement into a dedicated theater I've been waaaayy too busy to pay much attention the the bass problems. Long story short ,the theater is almost done and I have a question. I'm one of the crazy people that run four subs in his setup. I've always used two identical 250w LFE subs and two identical 150w(line level connected) one for each surround.
OK so here's my question. Since I have four subs wouldnt the following setup accomplish the same thing as the ICBM.
1. Set the 1066 to "sub =no"
2. Set 1066's crossover to 80hz.
3. Set the front L&R and surround L&R speakers to "large" and connect one sub (line level connected)to each speaker and let the subs crossovers control the crossover point.
4. Set center channel to "small" and let it's bass below the 1066's crossover role into the fronts or other speakers set to "large".
That's it. Just curious.
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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This looks like an enhanced version of my "Poor man's solution (Non-ICBM)" above.
The setup you are using will work just like the "Poor man's solution (Non-ICBM)" above. The extra benefit you get is rear left and right low frequency information in those subs.
The downside is the Center channel and LFE information for the multi-channel output will not function correctly. There is lost low frequency from the center during use of the multi-channel inputs and the subwoofer input cannot be used.
If you are only using the Rotel in a 5.1 setup, you can purchase an ICBM; follow my connection suggestions, to retrieve fully unaltered signals with a single ICBM.
If you are running a 6.1 or 7.1 setup, you will need Dual ICBMs or a TA-P9000ES analog preamp to accomplish the deeds.
Hope this helps
Dre
My little corner of the world
"ILL-PLEX 007.1"Comment
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Thanks for the reply,
My multi-sub setup has always been for 5.1 movies and 2 channel music. I'm not a SACD or DVD Audio guy or do I plan on being one. I've demoed SACD several times at friends houses and I just wasn't that impressed. Sure there was a difference but the subtle difference(IMO) and the lack of titles just makes the format undesirable to me(right now).
For 6.1 or 7.1 movies It would probably work if one surround and one back speaker were wired into each rear sub allowing the subs to handle the crossovers.
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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I don't really grasp the concept of the ICBM... Does it require you to run your pre-amp outs to it prior to running them to the amplifiers? If this is the case I would hesitate to use one due to the potential for signal quality issues.
Sayer - Musical Creations and Home PageSayer - Musical Creations and Home PageComment
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I agree - the RSP-1066 is a great value for the money.
Perspective:
You know, I listened to the President's speech tonight. We (Americans) are probably headed for war with Iraq in the next few weeks. Then there is the North Korean nuke problem, and possible future terrorists acts. Taking these things into account - in the total scheme of things that could go wrong in the universe - the double bass issue does not seem so earth shattering.
Consider: We in North America enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world - I'm just thankful to live in a country where I can earn enough to afford to own (a luxury like) an RSP-1066 instead of wondering where my next meal is coming from.
Just a thought.
BruceBruceComment
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Bruce well said and just for the record I love my 1066
. No ones heard me complain about double bass. If I had to do it all over I'd be waaayyy more than happy to buy the 1066 again.
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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Hey Legairre,
Thanks for the kind words. Say, I took a look at your system a few days ago - pretty awesome.
I had to laugh at your posts "tag line." Last year we had a doctor come in wanting a high end home theater. His actual words were, "I want it to be able to play loud enough to make my ears bleed." We installed Klipschorns for front channels and Herseys for center and surround channels and an RMB-1095 and RSP-1066. AND two Paradigm Servo 15 subs. It was pretty awesome too.
BruceBruceComment
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Bruce,
I have to throw a thank you back your way for your kind words as well. I guess I need to change my signature link. The pics are of my old HT that doubles as the family room. Last summer we did the move in with the in-laws thing while we waited for our new house to be built. We moved in Sept and I'been turning a 13x24 portion of the basement into a dedicated HT. I just finished putting in the drop ceiling so I should be up and running full steam real soon now.
8O WOW Klispschorns run by a 1095!!!!! 8O
Aren't they something like 104db sensitivity? His ears definately will be bleeding. WOW!!!
"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home TheaterComment
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Uhh probably no politics is a good policy on this forum. North America has the one of the high standards of living in the world because our government lets big business shit on the environment and rape and pilage the third world (where do you suppose these rotel units are assembled). Given they mark up on one of these units is probably more than a family in China gets to assemble 1000 of them, I think rotel can afford to give us what we paid for, yeah smell the low bucks alright. Rotel should take a tip from ARCAM, 100% brittish made, highest quality equipment and competitively priced against any asian product.Originally posted by sndtowne
Don't even get me started on Iraq..we are being decieved in the most despicable manner by our (apparently beloved) president Bush.Comment
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So then why did you feel the need to go on your little rant? Maybe you should take your own advice, especially since the post you were responding to wasn't even political, but rather just a "putting things in perspective" post.Uhh probably no politics is a good policy on this forum.
Jeff Kohn
Jeff Kohn
http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohnComment
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Alrighty gents...HTG is what it is because everyone involved here are good people with good ideas and information to share about audio/video...let's keep HTG special and unique from those "other" forums that turn into battle zones of ideas other then one's for which the forum represents!
Plus you don't want me getting political cause I guarantee I'll start offending everyone real quick!
It's Club Rotel...let's stick to the topic please!
Thank you.
E
The Norwegian A/V Nut!
E-CinemaComment
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well said Erik
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Not trying to affend anyone, just being sarcastic, no harm no foul ehh :LOL:Comment
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I did some testing with firmware 1.49 and I posted the results on the Bass management thread in general home theater section :
My findings are quite surprising.
I wonder if we should move that thread back here, because we're mostly talking about rsp-1066 there
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Hey John,
I wasn't trying to get anything (political) started by my "perspective" post - I was just pointing out that sometimes we audio/video buffs get so wrapped up in our hobby that we forget about the things in the world that "really" matter. I did not mean to offend anyone.
BruceBruceComment
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Its all good Bruce.
My bad if I sounded as if I was being confrontational, I wasn't. I just get so fed up with all this Bush/Iraq business, it affects me especially because I live in the UK and work with people from all over the world including the middle east. People think that because I'm american I must support all this madness. Regardless of my ideological stance...this forum has been a great escape for me, and when I came upon your post it struck me in a wierd way. I wasn't offended or angry or anything, I just thought that perhaps these types of comments may be misplaced here, my added rant about Rotel and China was really just out of sarcasm. These units are produced in China, for a low working wage and with generous tax breaks for rotel I suspect, but I have no substantial insight into rotels manufacturing business conduct. We do pay premium prices for this equipment, so the mark up here must be pretty darn high. Of course that's also because the market is niche, not your typical stack em high sellem cheap motto. Maybe ya'll have more money than me (I get that feeling seeing some of these awesome HT setups!!!) but £1000 is big bucks for me :? I'm one of these guys who has been somewhat pissed off by this Double Bass issue, not that I'm loosing any sleep over it. But it was a substantial investement for me and to learn their may be problems...well you know what I mean.
As you say this is all a great luxury, we should be so lucky, and we are. I assure you that I for one am profoundly greatful for my good fortune.
I do have to say how excellent it is to have a resource such as this community where we can all share in our "hobby" and do things better than we might be able to achieve alone.
Well, see ya round the forum guys,
JohnComment
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John,
I don't have any idea of how much Rotel makes on their products, but (as one of their dealers) I do know that they have the lowest dealer profit margin of any amplifier company I have carried in my 34 years in business. They have about a 2-4% lower margin than any other amplifier company I have ever carried - and an astounding 10% lower margin than Sony ES amps and processors.
Most companies have some sort of additional discount for a dealer's demo product (5-10%) not Rotel. Most companies have some sort of sales volume rebates (1-3%) not Rotel.
Why do I carry Rotel then? Well... in looking at everything available, they are unique. There is no other company quite like them. In an industry where most manufacturers are concerned more with the sales volume a dealer can do - Rotel is more concerned with making a quality product and putting on dealers that really care about quallity and performance. Are they perfect? No, but few companies are. Dealers however, in January, voted Rotel and Anthem the top two companies in the electronic business - not too shabby for two small companies.
BruceBruceComment
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Is this double base issue a problem with other brands? How are other companies (B&K REF-50/Anthem AV20) dealing with this issue? ThanksComment
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With regards to the AVM-20:Originally posted by A*Caps
With 2-channel analog bypass mode, there is no output to the subwoofer, and there is no option to force output to the subwoofer.
With the 5.1 input in analog bypass mode, the only output to the subwoofer is whatever comes from the ".1" channel, and there is no option to force more bass to the subwoofer.
In digital or analog-to-digital (analog-DSP) modes, the bass below the subwoofer's crossover goes to the subwoofer. There is an option called "super" that will copy the bass from "large" speakers, extract the bass from "small" speakers, and add the LFE channel and send this combined bass signal to both "large" mains and the subwoofer at the same time (the manual also claims to "large" surrounds, but I didn't see that during test).
MichaelComment
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Hi Bruce,
Since you're a dealer you must know better than me about how different companies mark-up schemes work, so I'll take your word for it in this case.
From a consumers point of view I choose Rotel over Sony for preformance, hands down. Sony IS in the stack em high sell em cheap business for all of their products with the exceptions of the ES class and certain select others. I expected however, that sony makes less per unit, but sells 10,000s more than Rotel. But I guess with Sony's sort of manufacturing connections they are also making these things with ultra low overhead too, at least for your bog standard off the shelf CD player that none of us would buy anyway. I mean it defeats the purpose of having a Rotel 1066 just to run some hunk of crap through it.
My only experience with Rotel has been this 1066 and an RC71, two channel pre amp, I had a couple of years ago. The RC71 was pretty crappy though, there was pretty obvious channel bleed at only moderate volume. I exchanged but they were all the same. It wasn't a very expensive product, like £170, but certainly not of much, if at all, better quality than any comparably priced Sony.
Certainly for a capable pre-pro in the same price bracket as the RSP-1066, options are more or less none. So I took a gamble. For my current uses I must say the 1066 has not disappointed in any respect, very good sonics and quality CD DAC. But the Sub problem looms heavy in the background for me...
I had considered Anthem as my first choice, but the price was just too high and they don't make a 220v model, as I live in the UK.
Peace man,
JComment
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I am contemplating purchasing the RSP-1066 and called Rotel today and they told me that the bass management issue for the analog inputs (DVD-A and SACD) has been addressed with a hardware fix under warranty. What they will do is fix the issue where all the "5. or 7." inputs will filter all the bass frequencies to the sub and this allows an external bass management device to function correctly. The sub out will still have a fixed crossover point, but if your bass management device is crossed over at a lower point, in effect this would turn off thier internal crossover. Has this been discussed yet, because I have not found anywhere that Rotel was doing this to fix the problem?
JimComment
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Jim as soon as I get the details I'll be posting more about the fix that Rotel's come up with. Basically it involves cutting a lead on one of the capacitors. As soon as I get the details I plan on doing this on my 1055 and when I do I'll take pictures of the process and post a "how to" unless someone beats me to it (Dre?)
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I made a deal for a slightly used 1066 today and will be visiting Rotel in Mass in the coming weeks, they told me that they would do the fix while I waited for it (pretty good customer service if you ask me). I will give my feed back after I get my unit and have it modified by the factory.
JimComment
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Cool!
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Hello,
The Bass Management issues have been mostly resolved with firmware 1.49 and 2.25 and above. There is an analog multi-channel fix as well.
I've had this modification in my unit (in two forms) while working with Rotel on the firmware issues. I haven't shared the information as of yet because of a few reasons.
The first reason was the concern for individuals damaging thee units and trying to get Rotel to fix it. The second issue was my available time. As you can see from the various forms I frequent, My time online has been short recently. This is because of other issues I've been dealing with. I have spoken to Jeff and a few other "Club Rotel users in the past few weeks. I told them all I'd get this information out as soon as I get some free time to document the procedure and provide pictures. At the same Time I'll make it very clear that I assume no responsibility for damage to the unit while attempting the procedure. Modifiers should be aware of damage to delicate components do to mishandling, Electrostatic discharge (ESD) or possible shock. I advise you use caution IF you attempt this procedure.
Either procedure involves removal of components via. Desoldering (reversible) or cutting (permanent) leads. One involves two components and the other involves three components.
I'll try to get this done as soon as I can. I hope you can hang on long enough for me to bet this documented correctly.
I promise it won't take as long as the firmware fix.
Dre
Andrew: I'll e-mail you when I get home. I'll still need time to get the document together.
My little corner of the world
"ILL-PLEX 007.1"Comment
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Thanks Dre as I said in my email if I get the instructions I might be able to help write the "how to" document since I'm off work for the week with my new baby daughter
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Woe Andrew. I've been away for a little and I want to say congrats on the new baby daughter. :P :!: Whats her name?
I'm also blown away by this bass management fix and would like the info ASAP as I am an electronic tech and would like to implement the mod.
Thanks
Steve
The Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORDThe Future of HT lies in FP SPREAD THE WORDComment
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At the same time, could it be possible to have some explanation from Rotel on why some 1066 models doesn't seem to have the multi-input redirection problem, like mine ?
Does my 1066 version (european silver, August 2002) already has the fix ?
Thanks.Comment
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