Sadly Disappointed by the RB-1092

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  • RebelMan
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 3139

    Sadly Disappointed by the RB-1092

    I was running some errands today that inadvertently brought me near a Rotel dealer. I had some extra time on my hands so I thought I would pop in and see what changes have taken place since my last visit, which wasn’t that long ago. One of the salesmen, that I have gotten to know pretty well, was excited about a couple of new arrivals. The dealer recently put on display Rotel’s new “digital” power amplifiers, the RB-1091 and RB-1092. He was pretty enthusiastic about them and offered a demonstration. I figured I still had some time to kill so I obliged him, besides I have been curious to hear them. What started out as a casual and impromptu audition quickly became a puzzling display of disbelief.

    The salesman already knew my passion for analog amplification so he thought he could take this opportunity to impress, or maybe persuade, me with his new digital wares. He began his presentation by describing how each power amplifier was connected to the system and how I could switch between them while keeping everything else constant. Starting with the RB-1092 he played for me one of his chosen CD’s, which I used for the remainder of the demonstration. I thought the system sounded okay but it wasn’t what I would call a standout. My recent and frequent visits with Classe’s Delta series equipment has set the bar in my mind for what I believe to be good sound reproduction with B&W’s 800 Series loudspeakers. Soon after my brief introduction to the RB-1092 I switched over to the RMB-1095 and I immediately thought… “Hmm, wait a minute…this doesn’t sound right.” I was expecting the RMB-1095 to sound inferior to the RB-1092, not better!

    I went back and for the between the two amplifiers for the next half hour and it was consistently clear to me that the “analog connection” sounded better. I immediately suspected a flawed setup. I went so far as to question the correctness of the configuration to the salesman but he insisted that the connections and the setup were correct. It didn’t make sense that I would find the RB-1092 to sound sterile in the treble, dimensionally lacking in midrange presence and a flat through out much of the bass region, the one area where “digital” amplifiers are suppose to excel. After all, it wasn’t that long ago when I critically auditioned the RMB-1077 and I was left with a pretty good impression of it and I went on record saying so. I refused to believe or accept that the room and equipment was properly setup and configured. To convince me that it was, the salesman took me to another (better) room that also had an RB-1092 on display.

    Not more than 10 minutes into the demo I could immediately distinguish between the two amplifiers, but this time I had no idea which I was listening to. As I discovered in the first room, the amplifier I preferred exhibited acoustical “body” throughout most of the audible range, presented a more balanced soundstage, had a more delicate top end and an involving midrange plus a more endowed low end. I was certain it had to be the RB-1092, based on the salesman’s expression and body language. To my surprise it wasn’t! It was an RB-1090, and I favored it by a large margin. Learning this actually frustrated me. I hoped, rather expected, that the RB-1092 would be the clear winner in this bout, but sadly, it wasn’t.

    I was dumfounded by the results of this test and the one just a moment ago conducted in the first room. When I asked the salesman if I was the only one that is noticing the difference, specifically that the RB-1092 is musically lacking, and unfortunately, in a big way, he said that I wasn’t. He mentioned that three other gentlemen that were in earlier also felt the same way when he demoed the amplifiers for them in the first room. At this point I had to ask if he noticed any differences. He stated that he has a preference for digital amplifiers but also admitted that any differences he could hear were very subtle. He politely referred to my ears as being “finely tuned” and was expressively impressed with my ability to distinguish two different analog amplifiers using different front end equipment and speakers and in two different rooms without hesitation and pin point accuracy. While I appreciated the pleasantries I certainly didn’t feel any better. I began to question my in depth review of the RMB-1077, Rotel’s first foray into the digital amplifier world. I had to quickly remind myself that my review of the RMB-1077 was conducted under very controlled and carefully exercised tests. I still remember what I heard back then and I still feel that the RMB-1077 is a very good multi-channel amplifier.

    However, my confidence doesn’t explain the results of these new observations nor the discrepancies between the digital amplifiers to my satisfaction. To address my bewilderment I formulated three possible theories. One possibility may be that my hearing has substantially improved in the last few months (not likely). Two, my in depth evaluation of the RMB-1077 was flawed (also not likely). Three, the circuit topology and its implementation in the RB-1092 is inferior to that of the RMB-1077 (this is the most probable and very likely).

    This post is not some lame attempt to discredit the RB-1092, as I stated earlier my dealer clearly likes it, but I clearly do not. Furthermore, I had very high hopes for the RB-1092 and its brother the RB-1091. In fact both were on my list of possible upgrades and they had been for months. However, the results of this evaluation can not be overlooked and leads me to conclude that Rotel has much work to do if they intend on making Class-D amplifiers a regular staple in their lineup. I must say that I am extremely disappointed in Rotel’s latest offerings and this post is nothing more than an opportunity to express that. I know Rotel can do much better!
    "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
  • Kobus
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2005
    • 402

    #2
    Damn....................................



    Thanks Rebelman



    Kobus

    Comment

    • shadow
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2003
      • 315

      #3
      As Joey said in another thread, he also preferred the 1090 to the new digital amps. This is not a good harbinger for the future if these tests accurately reflect the compartive merits of these amps since Rotel is going to discontinue the 1090 soon. I hope this is a setup or breakin issue but I am worried it is not.
      Last edited by shadow; 04 April 2006, 08:08 Tuesday.

      Comment

      • DrJRapp
        Super Senior Member
        • Apr 2003
        • 1204

        #4
        Were both amps relatively fresh out of the box? I found that it took my 1077 about 200 hours to flesh itself out. You may want to take a trip back in a couple of weeks.
        Jerry Rappaport

        Comment

        • ShadowZA
          Super Senior Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 1098

          #5
          Many thanks for sharing your experience, Rebelman. Well written and informative. Rotel has been true to me for many years and occupies a reserved space in my heart. I'm keen to follow its latest developments.

          Comment

          • Kobus
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2005
            • 402

            #6
            The obvious anomaly thus far with "our" limited reviews of Rotel's "digital" amps are that the 1077 was generally regarded better than the 1095, but the 1091/2 not.

            Or to put it this way the 1077 was a step forward but the 1091/2 not.

            Hopefully it is a running in thing like Jerry implied. Or .....

            does the 1077 sound different to the 1091/2.

            Kobus

            Comment

            • RebelMan
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Mar 2005
              • 3139

              #7
              I wish it were a run in issue, a thought that crossed my mind, but the amps they had on display weren't any newer than the RMB-1077 was when I heard it just a few months ago. They are running these amps full time in the first room, not quite so in the second but my reactions to both were identical. Even if they had them for just a couple of weeks it would only take a few days to reach the break-in threshold, which according to Rotel is about 72 hours. I intend to follow up in a few weeks to see if any improvements have been made but I am not going to hold my breath.

              I guess what bothers me most about this experience was the glaring differences I heard between these two types of amps; the 1090 and the 1092 for instance. Subtle differences I could have accepted.
              "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

              Comment

              • miner
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 900

                #8
                I found my RB-1092 fresh out of the box to be superior to my well-used RB-1070. At my dealer the side-by-side comparison of the RMB-1077 to the RB-1092 was a near mirror image in audio reproduction. The difference was the 1077 pre was the 1068 and 1092 pre was the 1070. The 1068 volume level needed adjusting initially but once set the comparison revealed that the 1092 had a bit better bass and midrange extension; highs were equal. As I said before, the 1092 won me over with size/wt in conjunction with audio reproduction. Everyone's ears reveal a different interpretation of 'musical' accuracy. I am happy with what mine revealed to me.

                Comment

                • Boombox
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 203

                  #9
                  At the moment it does not look good for the RB1091/2s. I was considering them as an upgrade to my RB1070, but in all honesty, I'll rather be adding another RB1070.
                  Regards :T,

                  Boom....a.k.a...."The Box"

                  Comment

                  • grit
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2005
                    • 580

                    #10
                    Well, as I've stated before, I did not care for the 1091x2 or the 1077. I didn't get to listen to the 1092. My problem was the imaging/sound stage. I felt the digital amps provide a distorted sound stage, giving me the impression the vocalist(s) were either on my lap (1077) or behind me (1091).

                    As Miner said and is true always, it's about what sounds good to *you*. I've never heard any other digital amps, but thus far, I'll be sticking to the class a/b types.

                    Comment

                    • Joey_V
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2005
                      • 436

                      #11
                      The 1090 to my ears were better than the new 1091 monos.... dont know why, but I was hoping to be blown away. I guess the 1090 remain my reference Rotel amp.
                      Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
                      Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
                      System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

                      Comment

                      • gianni
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2002
                        • 524

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kobus

                        Or to put it this way the 1077 was a step forward but the 1091/2 not.



                        Kobus
                        If this does turn out to be the case, there is a silver lining in that the 1077 is a lot more bang for the buck considering it has 7 channels.

                        Comment

                        • DL86
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2005
                          • 271

                          #13
                          You mentioned the rmb-1095 sounds better than the rb-1092. Does this mean the rb-1092 is a flat out rip off?

                          Comment

                          • RebelMan
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 3139

                            #14
                            Both the RMB-1095 and the RB-1090 were better sounding (to me) than the RB-1092 was. EVERYTHING about this little experiment was the same in either room, only the physical connection between the amps and the pre-amp was changed.

                            As disappointed as I was I don't think the RB-1092 is a rip-off. There are people that do like its sonic qualities I just don't happen to be one. The dealer isn't the first person to tell me I have an acute sense of hearing, which may be too good for my own good as I have a preponderance to like the acoustical properties of equipment that is seemingly very expensive.

                            I am a believer that if a person doesn't hear a difference than there really is no difference, and that is all that really matters.
                            "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                            Comment

                            • Joey_V
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2005
                              • 436

                              #15
                              I have heard the same in a very controlled setup and I agree with ReberlMan.
                              Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
                              Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
                              System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

                              Comment

                              • DrJRapp
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Apr 2003
                                • 1204

                                #16
                                I have found that all the so called "digital" amps have a somewhat forward soundstage presentation. When combined with forward sounding speakers ( ie: 802Ds) that can become overbearing for some ears. When combined with laid back speakers it is less so. Some people like the "presence" of a forward sounding presentation while others may not.

                                A good example, I have a pair of NuForce Ref9 monoblocks that I use in a 2 channel system in my study library with B&W XT4s. The XT4 has a somewhat heavy bass presentation, a laid back midrange and an aaluminum tweeter that is highly detailed but somewhat slow. The digital amps tight bass an forward soundstage balance well and the tweeter benifits greatly from the speed of the amp...great synergy. On the other hand, when I try the same amps with my ML Summits, which are very quick and already have a very large and tad forward soundstage (they are dipoles) the presentation becomes too forward for my liking.
                                Jerry Rappaport

                                Comment

                                • Andrew M Ward
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Apr 2005
                                  • 717

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by DL86
                                  You mentioned the rmb-1095 sounds better than the rb-1092. Does this mean the rb-1092 is a flat out rip off?

                                  This whole thread is interesting...
                                  First of all, the Rotel class D amplifiers are not digital, they are PWM. I'll leave it at that because I'm sure that's been established over and over and over, we are just somehow ignoring that.

                                  But anyway...

                                  I have all kinds of high-end and mid-fi power amplifiers in my collection, most of them have redeeming qualities of some kind in fact most are quite good.

                                  That said,

                                  I really enjoy the characteristics presented by the 1077 & 1092, in fact I enjoy them a whole lot. I would put them up against many amplifiers in much much higher price categories...

                                  I have found (in this industry) one mans negative review can be quite damning, even in the face of 10 positive reviews, it’s the one negative guy who convinces everybody else they "They just can't hear it, and now are not qualified" somehow... I'm not saying this is what's happening here in this string, but it can sure turn into that.

                                  I like my Classe' amplifiers, I like my Mark Levinson amplifiers, I like my Linn system, and I like my Rotel amplifiers... All are different, none are bad, too much good engineering and hard work has made them all good.

                                  That's not to say there aren't bad amplifiers out there, because there are... But the Rotel 1092 is not one of them! I would argue that it’s a great amplifier in fact.

                                  I urge you to actually listen to one yourself... I did (and do frequently) they're nice.

                                  8)

                                  Comment

                                  • MoonSpin
                                    Member
                                    • Jan 2005
                                    • 32

                                    #18
                                    I had the RB-1092 for a few days at home around mid March and got to compare it side-by-side with my RB-1090. It got confusing switching back and forth for me to pickup what I liked and didn't like. I could tell that I overall liked my RB-1090 better, maybe because I'm more used to it but it did sound better to me.

                                    For me, it was better to listen to each amp for an hour before switching to the other for an hour. When I did it this way, it was hands down the RB-1090 as the winner for me. I'm keeping my RB-1090. I hope that Rotel will still make the RB-1090 for a long time to come for those of us who prefer it's sound over the new RB-1091 and RB-1092. If not, any one interested in getting the RB-1090 before Rotel stops making it, I would do so before that happens. It's a great amp to have and an investment you won't be sorry you made. It's a real jewel at a bargin price with best quality at near 100 pounds, but yes..... very much worth it! I love a hefty amp though and this one speaks of quality weight if you like that.

                                    I think it will all boil down to what "You" will like to your ears. The RB-1092 sounds nice, and if I didn't have my RB-1090 already, I wouldn't know the difference to compare it with but I've had my RB-1090 for a while now and love the sound it gives so I may just be more used to the sound I enjoy from it. ;x( I just know it wouldn't be an upgrade for me to go with the new RB-Amps. I am sure with how Rotel is, these new amps are the best they can be for it's technology right now. :T

                                    The new amps offer a much smaller and lighter footprint so that could be a real plus for those who need that or prefer it. ;x( :lol:

                                    Comment

                                    • snowball
                                      Member
                                      • Feb 2006
                                      • 70

                                      #19
                                      when do you think the rb-1090 will be dicontinued?

                                      i am planning to get one by the end of summer!(september-october 2006)

                                      Comment

                                      • george_k
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Jan 2004
                                        • 342

                                        #20
                                        Thanks for the heads up RebelMan, I'm actually in the market for a new amp. The benefits of digital amps in terms of space saving and heat dissipation are important to me but so is sound quality (I don't want a compromise in either sense)

                                        I wonder how the early solid-state amps sounded when compared to tube amps, mayble it'll take some more time for the digital amp designers to work out the SQ issue.

                                        Comment

                                        • miner
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Mar 2005
                                          • 900

                                          #21
                                          I urge everyone to listen with their own ears - one persons recommendation/disapproval should not sway you one way or the other. Each persons own listening desires should guide them in making a decision/choice. Rebelman is quite emphatic about his dislikes of the new Rotel amps. I, on the other hand, am very pleased and would find itt very difficult to find another amp in the $2200 range that offers what my 1092 does. The 1090 was not in my purchasing decision because of size and weight. Coming from a RB-1070 I should be pleased as punch with the 1092. The 1070 was a very good amp, 1092 is a great amp. I probably have not put more than 50 hrs on mine so I am anxiously awaiting for it to flesh itself out, as DrJRapp would say. I also looked at Classe and Krell but could not justify the difference in price when compared to the 1092. For my likes and price range the 1092 fit the bill and exceeded expectations.

                                          Trust your own ears.

                                          Comment

                                          • RebelMan
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Mar 2005
                                            • 3139

                                            #22
                                            I think most of us here are aware that Rotel's "digital" amplifiers are not really digital, but this technicality is beside the point. The designation only serves to distinguish one type of amplifier from the other, i.e., an analog amp from a non-analog amp or simply put a "digital" amp, in discussions like these.

                                            I have a strong affinity for Rotel in general and their amplifiers in particular. They have a very long a distinguished history of building high quality amplifiers at reasonable price points. My opinions of Rotel's latest does not in anyway taint their fine reputation. Despite my befuddlement, I continue to hold Rotel in high regard which is a testament to my disappointment in the RB-1092. That said, I am beginning to wonder if the rumors about Rotel’s delays getting the new amplifiers online, because they didn’t voice as well as the RMB-1077, had some truth to it.

                                            Andrew, I was hoping this post would spark your interest and I appreciate your input. I have found that we seem to share similar tastes in the quality of music playback systems, however, I wonder if maybe your opinions regarding the RB-1092 aren't somewhat biased? If you believe that the RB-1092 performs as well as you claim it does, or should, then I suspect that the dealer has two defective units on display or their system has anomalies that need ferreting out. Given your current occupation, I invite you to me with me at the dealership so that I may point out to you what I heard, or better yet didn’t hear.

                                            By the way, if you include the other three gentlemen’s opinions at the time, you’ll have four less than positive reviews.
                                            "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                            Comment

                                            • MoonSpin
                                              Member
                                              • Jan 2005
                                              • 32

                                              #23
                                              If size and weight are important factors for you, I would go with the new RB-1092. I think anyone will be happy with it. I'm not saying it doesn't sound good because it does. I already have the RB-1090 so it just isn't an upgrade for me to justify. If you don't have either and need the size and weight savings, than the RB-1092 or RB-1091 is for you, but do keep in mind that we all do like different sounds, one may very well prefer the new Rotel Class D amps to the analog ones, and have, so do go out and listen with your own ears and find which one best fits your ears likes. The new amps are still good amps.

                                              Also I will point out again that I've had my RB-1090 for some time and have grown very fond of the sound so it could be that I'm very used to the RB-1090 to really adjust to the RB-1092 since I have the RB-1090 sound. Maybe it could be said the same had I started with the RB-1092 first? Not really sure, just saying what sounded best to my ears, but it very well may not yours, so do go out and have a listen to both if you are thinking about either amp.

                                              Comment

                                              • MoonSpin
                                                Member
                                                • Jan 2005
                                                • 32

                                                #24
                                                Review of the Rotel RB-1092

                                                Rotel has the review of the RB-1092 up on their website here:



                                                The review is from HiFiNews April 2006 issue, and gives it a pretty good review if anyone is interested in reading it.

                                                Comment

                                                • gianni
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2002
                                                  • 524

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by MoonSpin
                                                  Rotel has the review of the RB-1092 up on their website here:



                                                  The review is from HiFiNews April 2006 issue, and gives it a pretty good review if anyone is interested in reading it.
                                                  Saw the review. Unfortunately as seems to be the case with most of the British
                                                  Audio reviews, they don't go into much detail when it comes to sound quality. Compared to some of the US magazines, I would say the reviews are light when it comes to listening impressions.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Andrew M Ward
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Apr 2005
                                                    • 717

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by george_k
                                                    Thanks for the heads up RebelMan, I'm actually in the market for a new amp. The benefits of digital amps in terms of space saving and heat dissipation are important to me but so is sound quality (I don't want a compromise in either sense)

                                                    I wonder how the early solid-state amps sounded when compared to tube amps, mayble it'll take some more time for the digital amp designers to work out the SQ issue.
                                                    Attention:
                                                    Class D amplifiers are not new.

                                                    far from it.

                                                    multiple generations of class D development has taken place. Class D is a mature technology, make no mistake about that. The sound that the Rotel Class D amplifiers make is exactly the sound they want to make ~ like it ~ love it ~ or hate it ~ they are what they are, and an overwhelming majority of listeners really enjoy them, Rotel is not looking to "fix" them, when your "love it" ratio is as high as it is with these amps.

                                                    That's not suggesting any one person or another "will or will not" like them, just listen to one before you get persuaded one way or the other.

                                                    the majority of people who don't like them have never even heard them...although that's not the case here (it is common)

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Andrew M Ward
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Apr 2005
                                                      • 717

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                      I think most of us here are aware that Rotel's "digital" amplifiers are not really digital, but this technicality is beside the point. The designation only serves to distinguish one type of amplifier from the other, i.e., an analog amp from a non-analog amp or simply put a "digital" amp, in discussions like these.

                                                      I have a strong affinity for Rotel in general and their amplifiers in particular. They have a very long a distinguished history of building high quality amplifiers at reasonable price points. My opinions of Rotel's latest does not in anyway taint their fine reputation. Despite my befuddlement, I continue to hold Rotel in high regard which is a testament to my disappointment in the RB-1092. That said, I am beginning to wonder if the rumors about Rotel’s delays getting the new amplifiers online, because they didn’t voice as well as the RMB-1077, had some truth to it.

                                                      Andrew, I was hoping this post would spark your interest and I appreciate your input. I have found that we seem to share similar tastes in the quality of music playback systems, however, I wonder if maybe your opinions regarding the RB-1092 aren't somewhat biased? If you believe that the RB-1092 performs as well as you claim it does, or should, then I suspect that the dealer has two defective units on display or their system has anomalies that need ferreting out. Given your current occupation, I invite you to me with me at the dealership so that I may point out to you what I heard, or better yet didn’t hear.

                                                      By the way, if you include the other three gentlemen’s opinions at the time, you’ll have four less than positive reviews.
                                                      Prior to my affiliation:

                                                      I used to love pointing out the faults I heard in Krell amplifiers, I thought they sucked (badly) and I still do... I am in a minority, I realize most people rave about Krell amps.

                                                      To me they have a most un-natural bass feel, they seem boomy and poorly modeled. They don't image very wide and they fail regularly, injecting DC into speakers (nice) ... You couldn't give me one...

                                                      that said, they sell like crazy, and people just love them.

                                                      We all like and don't like a variety of electronic devices, for a myriad of reasons. It does not surprise me when some folks don't like a preamplifier or a power amplifier or a CD player... it happens every day.

                                                      I can be sensitive to imaging issues and bass accuracy... when amplifiers don’t do it the way I want them to, or in a way I can’t quite come to grasps with, I usually end up not liking that product.

                                                      It happens
                                                      8) it still cool, we just move on to something else...

                                                      Comment

                                                      • ThomasW
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 10933

                                                        #28
                                                        Attention:
                                                        Class D amplifiers are not new.
                                                        They sure aren't.

                                                        I remember sitting around the lab when our DIY moderator Jonmarsh was experimenting with class D amps in the mid 1970's....

                                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                        Comment

                                                        • wkhanna
                                                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                          • 5673

                                                          #29
                                                          Having yet to hear the Class D, I have been wondering what the ‘rationale’ is for it’s development in ‘High End’ amplification is specifically.

                                                          Could it be Market Share? I mean, what is it that Class D can offer that the ‘de rigeur’ A/B can’t?
                                                          Is the whole thing just about the latest techno-craze that is intended to appeal to the first-time Uber audio equipment buyer who is used to the fast-paced evolution of Hi-Tech appliances that are ‘Must Have’ for the new home, along with the all stainless steel kitchen with ovens that you turn on from your computer at work, and refrigerators that automatically order a quart of Half&Half from your online grocer when it senses you have picked it up 18 times to presumably dilute your automatically brewed Green Mountain fresh ground java via your processor controlled espresso station?

                                                          I’m just asking, other than generating less heat ( ooh, it has a lower environmental foot print!) and taking up less valuable space on the armoire, (more room for the South American Indian artifact display!) does this topology truly have the potential to offer a real advantage to the sonic quality of our music?
                                                          _


                                                          Bill

                                                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                          FinleyAudio

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Andrew M Ward
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Apr 2005
                                                            • 717

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                            Having yet to hear the Class D, I have been wondering what the ‘rationale’ is for it’s development in ‘High End’ amplification is specifically.

                                                            Could it be Market Share? I mean, what is it that Class D can offer that the ‘de rigeur’ A/B can’t?
                                                            Is the whole thing just about the latest techno-craze that is intended to appeal to the first-time Uber audio equipment buyer who is used to the fast-paced evolution of Hi-Tech appliances that are ‘Must Have’ for the new home, along with the all stainless steel kitchen with ovens that you turn on from your computer at work, and refrigerators that automatically order a quart of Half&Half from your online grocer when it senses you have picked it up 18 times to presumably dilute your automatically brewed Green Mountain fresh ground java via your processor controlled espresso station?

                                                            I’m just asking, other than generating less heat ( ooh, it has a lower environmental foot print!) and taking up less valuable space on the armoire, (more room for the South American Indian artifact display!) does this topology truly have the potential to offer a real advantage to the sonic quality of our music?


                                                            they are 90% efficient, so they don't waste valuable electricity... a large percentage of listeners think they sound better than A/B Torroid and caps designs... (that point should not be lost in the shuffle of this banter)

                                                            Try this on: Had all we ever heard was Class D amplifiers for decades and decades how would we feel about A/B (or even pure A) amplification?

                                                            Tubes sound great!

                                                            Except, I don't think that's true always, some do ~ some don't

                                                            almost none can produce high frequency decently... and a noise floor through the roof, yet old schoolers love them.

                                                            So I'm not sure the iPod gimmie the new toy argument works here, especially since Class D is about 35 years old...

                                                            But I appreciate the perspective since we are subject to that problem in the CE market.

                                                            :W

                                                            Comment

                                                            • nikos
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Dec 2005
                                                              • 172

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                              Having yet to hear the Class D, I have been wondering what the ‘rationale’ is for it’s development in ‘High End’ amplification is specifically.

                                                              Could it be Market Share? I mean, what is it that Class D can offer that the ‘de rigeur’ A/B can’t?
                                                              ....................
                                                              ....................
                                                              I’m just asking, other than generating less heat ( ooh, it has a lower environmental foot print!) and taking up less valuable space on the armoire, (more room for the South American Indian artifact display!) does this topology truly have the potential to offer a real advantage to the sonic quality of our music?
                                                              Stevebez... created this thread



                                                              Hope the link there helps answer some of your questions.

                                                              N
                                                              Classe SSP-800, Classe CA-5200, B&W 803D, B&W HTM2D, JL Audio Fathom f113 Subwoofer, Rotel RMB-1077(for sale), Oppo DV-983H, Panasonic PT-AE900U Xbox360, Sony PS3, Samsung 8000 Series 55" LCD, Klipsch promedia 5.1 ultra for PC

                                                              Comment

                                                              • george_k
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Jan 2004
                                                                • 342

                                                                #32
                                                                Attention:
                                                                Class D amplifiers are not new.
                                                                I meant new to the market (mass-market) as a power amplifier offering, what I meant to say is that if the units don't sell as well as they expected they might tweak the sound in a later revision.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • EAmin
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Aug 2004
                                                                  • 282

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Great review RebelMan.

                                                                  Just wondering what speakers you listened to in the demos. Do you think they had any influence on the sound you liked/didn't like? Are they speakers you are familiar with like B&Ws?

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • wkhanna
                                                                    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                                    • 5673

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Well, yes and no.
                                                                    I remember reading it. And was very appreciative that you gave me the direct link so I could study it further.

                                                                    I do not dispute the empirical data. I have worked, more than a few years ago, as an R&D technologist in the field of high energy physics, and have some grasp of the EE science behind the design, despite the fact that I am a mechanical engr by schooling and trade.

                                                                    I guess I’m like the rest of us, just waiting, and maybe wanting, to see a new technology evolve that relates to the audiophile directly in real terms of real and perceived performance.

                                                                    Then again, maybe I’m just an old cow turn cynic, who needs put to pasture. Don Q. and I will fight the Class-D windmill (who we have named HAL) on our own, and leave the rest of the world to evolve onto bigger and better pursuits.

                                                                    I’m just wondering out loud to those of you with far more understanding of the specifics, and much more refined ‘ears’, if this will ultimately create a bridge, or a canyon?

                                                                    Regardless.....Taxes......Death....... and Evolution.
                                                                    _


                                                                    Bill

                                                                    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                    FinleyAudio

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • hifisponge
                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                      • Mar 2006
                                                                      • 14

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
                                                                      I like my Classe' amplifiers, I like my Mark Levinson amplifiers, I like my Linn system, and I like my Rotel amplifiers... All are different, none are bad, too much good engineering and hard work has made them all good.
                                                                      8)
                                                                      Great point. While I haven't had the chance to hear the new Rotel PWM amps, I have rarely heard truly "bad" gear in this price range. They each offer a different perspective, and while some may not be to my liking, it doesn't make these pieces bad. Simply not what I'm looking for.

                                                                      I think it is too easy to equate one's own personal truth as an absolute truth. In this subjective hobby, this is rarely the case.

                                                                      Besides, as you said, I respect the level of engineering that goes into equipment at this level.

                                                                      Cheers,

                                                                      - Tim

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Gump
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Sep 2005
                                                                        • 522

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Without trying to sound contentious because I respect your opinion RebelMan; Just a few weeks ago I listened to the same 1092 in the same room at the same store that you did and I thought it sounded darn good.

                                                                        I think it sounded powerful and dynamic and left me with a good first impression. I had the salesman lug in the 803D's and I don't think they had anything left in the tank by the time the 1092 was done with them. I thought it had a very quick neutral sound with strong tight bass. Almost Linn-like only more powerful sounding.

                                                                        It was an impromptu demo so I didn't have the time to A/B it with the 1090, but I did listen to the Classe 2200 which was hooked up in the same room. Obviously the 2200 had the warmer more sophisticated sound, but I could understand how someone with a taste for a faster paced and stronger amp that costs alot less money might actually prefer the 1092.

                                                                        Although the 1090 might be the better sounding amp in your opinion, I'm surprised the disparity was that dramatic to you.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • MoonSpin
                                                                          Member
                                                                          • Jan 2005
                                                                          • 32

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Andrew, how long does Rotel plan to keep making the RB-1090? I'm hoping they still plan to offer it for a long time while offering the new amp line! ;x(
                                                                          or does it depend mostly on how will the new amps sell to it?

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • RebelMan
                                                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                                                            • Mar 2005
                                                                            • 3139

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by EAmin
                                                                            Great review RebelMan.

                                                                            Just wondering what speakers you listened to in the demos. Do you think they had any influence on the sound you liked/didn't like? Are they speakers you are familiar with like B&Ws?
                                                                            The equipment in the multi-channel room (the first room) consisted of a Rotel RDV-1060 source, RSP-1098 pre/pro, RMB-1095 amp, RB-1092 amp and a pair of B&W 803S's. Some of the equipment in the two-channel room (the second room) is a bit sketchy because I was not in control of the demo like I had been in the first room. I believe it consisted of a Rotel (RDV-1072?) source, RC-1070 pre, RB-1090 amp, RB-1092 amp and a pair of Dynaudio Contour S 5.4’s.

                                                                            The overall sonic aspects between the two brands of speakers were vastly different. I have found B&W's, in general, to be somewhat forward and a little bright and the Dynes laid back and dark. Someone suggested that "digital" amps in general lean a bit forward in soundstage presence. If this is true I should have noticed some exaggeration in forward presentation with the B&W's and a more balanced presentation with the Dynes. I didn't observe this to any appreciable degree in either case. What I did notice was a lack of soundstage dimensional depth and forward presentation, in both cases. It was as if the soundstage collapsed, somewhat, into a two-dimensional field. Couple this with a flattened bottom end, and brittle top end and you have the recipe for an amp that doesn't sound like a Rotel amp.

                                                                            This is not to say that the RB-1092 is a "bad" amp. It only says that, to me, it fails to possess the usual Rotel characteristics that I have become accustomed to. I repeat, I had high hopes for this amp, but those hopes were dashed and this was unfortunate.

                                                                            Like others have stated previously, a person really needs to evaluate the amp for themselves and then decide. However, some people may not have this luxury and for them this feedback maybe helpful.
                                                                            "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • mattburk
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Feb 2003
                                                                              • 248

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
                                                                              This whole thread is interesting...
                                                                              First of all, the Rotel class D amplifiers are not digital, they are PWM. I'll leave it at that because I'm sure that's been established over and over and over, we are just somehow ignoring that.

                                                                              But anyway...

                                                                              I have all kinds of high-end and mid-fi power amplifiers in my collection, most of them have redeeming qualities of some kind in fact most are quite good.

                                                                              That said,

                                                                              I really enjoy the characteristics presented by the 1077 & 1092, in fact I enjoy them a whole lot. I would put them up against many amplifiers in much much higher price categories...

                                                                              I have found (in this industry) one mans negative review can be quite damning, even in the face of 10 positive reviews, it’s the one negative guy who convinces everybody else they "They just can't hear it, and now are not qualified" somehow... I'm not saying this is what's happening here in this string, but it can sure turn into that.

                                                                              I like my Classe' amplifiers, I like my Mark Levinson amplifiers, I like my Linn system, and I like my Rotel amplifiers... All are different, none are bad, too much good engineering and hard work has made them all good.

                                                                              That's not to say there aren't bad amplifiers out there, because there are... But the Rotel 1092 is not one of them! I would argue that it’s a great amplifier in fact.

                                                                              I urge you to actually listen to one yourself... I did (and do frequently) they're nice.

                                                                              8)
                                                                              How would you compare the 1090 to the 1091/2, and how would the best or rotel compare to classe or linn?
                                                                              www.mycstone.com
                                                                              www.coverednow.com
                                                                              www.biarenton.com

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • mattburk
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Feb 2003
                                                                                • 248

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by MoonSpin
                                                                                I had the RB-1092 for a few days at home around mid March and got to compare it side-by-side with my RB-1090. It got confusing switching back and forth for me to pickup what I liked and didn't like. I could tell that I overall liked my RB-1090 better, maybe because I'm more used to it but it did sound better to me.

                                                                                For me, it was better to listen to each amp for an hour before switching to the other for an hour. When I did it this way, it was hands down the RB-1090 as the winner for me. I'm keeping my RB-1090. I hope that Rotel will still make the RB-1090 for a long time to come for those of us who prefer it's sound over the new RB-1091 and RB-1092. If not, any one interested in getting the RB-1090 before Rotel stops making it, I would do so before that happens. It's a great amp to have and an investment you won't be sorry you made. It's a real jewel at a bargin price with best quality at near 100 pounds, but yes..... very much worth it! I love a hefty amp though and this one speaks of quality weight if you like that.

                                                                                I think it will all boil down to what "You" will like to your ears. The RB-1092 sounds nice, and if I didn't have my RB-1090 already, I wouldn't know the difference to compare it with but I've had my RB-1090 for a while now and love the sound it gives so I may just be more used to the sound I enjoy from it. ;x( I just know it wouldn't be an upgrade for me to go with the new RB-Amps. I am sure with how Rotel is, these new amps are the best they can be for it's technology right now. :T

                                                                                The new amps offer a much smaller and lighter footprint so that could be a real plus for those who need that or prefer it. ;x( :lol:
                                                                                Does the rb10990 have a12v trigger? I would hate to leave that thing on all the time.
                                                                                www.mycstone.com
                                                                                www.coverednow.com
                                                                                www.biarenton.com

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • RebelMan
                                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                                  • 3139

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by Gump
                                                                                  Without trying to sound contentious because I respect your opinion RebelMan; Just a few weeks ago I listened to the same 1092 in the same room at the same store that you did and I thought it sounded darn good.
                                                                                  .
                                                                                  .
                                                                                  .
                                                                                  Although the 1090 might be the better sounding amp in your opinion, I'm surprised the disparity was that dramatic to you.
                                                                                  Not a problem Gump. Care to meet? I can show you the light!
                                                                                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Gump
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Sep 2005
                                                                                    • 522

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                                    Not a problem Gump. Care to meet? I can show you the light!
                                                                                    Sure, we should probably hook up for a battle of the amps.....although the boys at SLM might think we're ganging up on them!

                                                                                    Finding time away from the baby-sitting chores isn't easy though.....You know how that is I'm sure :T

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • ShadowZA
                                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                                                      • 1098

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      I wish I was there with you guys ... just the sort of thing I'd love to do. Remember to take along some music which you're familiar with.

                                                                                      Can't wait to read about your experience.

                                                                                      Good luck :T

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Stevebez
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Oct 2003
                                                                                        • 458

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Again... I think this is going to turn into a CD vs Vinyl debate all over again. I am probably the most pro Class A/B pundit around - and quietly poo-pooed Jerry's report on the RB1077. I simply thought "cannot be!". (Apologies Jerry ops: ).

                                                                                        I decided to take a plunge and got the RB1092 on the basis of a review and for space/weight considerations. I would have liked an RB1090 - but its just too big for my rack.

                                                                                        So I took the plunge... well you can read my prelminary findings in my report back on the RB1092. After a few more days of stereo bypass listening its simply awesome to me. The bass is so tight and accurate its uncanny - I keep checking to see if my sub (Velo DD12) is on. The 803'D's have come to llife. Highs are slightly less smooth than the RB1080 but only slightly but this may be the impression I get as the soundstage is - as others have stated - more forward - or because my ears are all blocked up from my flu!.... I am not sure if I dislike or like the forward stage yet, but it has not annoyed me. In one way its more involving, and in another its more in your face.

                                                                                        On balance the improvement in the low region by far - and I mean by FAR - outplays my RB1080. The RB1080 by comparison is no slouch powerwise but lows get flabby pretty quickly when you turn it up - and I dont mean insane levels I mean around 55-60db on a 1068. Mids are clearer to me - but think this is a result of the more forward stage - here the forward stage works well. The background is dead quiet.

                                                                                        I am not trying to convince anyone the RB1092 is the be all and end all of amps ... (although to it is to me!) I am really surprised at what this technology delivers as a package, and in some respects completely blown away, and disappointed about nothing. I would love to do a RB1090 / 1092 side by side but alas cannot - still have the RB1080 to test it out with but seems an unfair comparison but will do it when I recover from the flu and have some time !!! Nothing like a blind test to sort the men from the boys !

                                                                                        I urge you all to listen to the new amps when you can ... in the end YOU need to like what you hear... as in the end this is what matters.

                                                                                        Nice review RebelMan...sorry you were disappointed. I must say I found completely the opposite to
                                                                                        Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                                        the RB-1092 to sound sterile in the treble, dimensionally lacking in midrange presence and a flat through out much of the bass region
                                                                                        ... but appreciate and respect your input!!!

                                                                                        Rgds Steve.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • DrJRapp
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Apr 2003
                                                                                          • 1204

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          All this bicckering got me interested in hearing the 1092 for myself. I didn't have a lot of time yesterday but I was able to get to a dealer to briefly listen to a 1092 powering B&W 803Ds. I found it difficult to distinuish the sound of the 1092 from the sound of the 1077, they are that close.
                                                                                          Jerry Rappaport

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