bi-amp bi-wire or jumpers,whats everyone doing

[stevek]

hey guys,just wanted to know how everyone is connecting their speakers seeing everyone has b&w.
i know there are a ton of threads out there on this topic but im curious how b&w owners are doing it and why.
thanks steve

[Kal Rubinson]

I usually bi-wire my 800Diamonds because my standard AQ cables are bi-wire.
I use jumpers on the 804s because it sounds fine.
I have tried bi-amping many times in the past.
I have yet to hear a difference that I can ascribe to any of these options.

[madmac]

"I have yet to hear a difference that I can ascribe to any of these options."[/QUOTE]


I'm not at all surprised Kal........not that bi-amping is necessarily a bad thing, but I just do not think it makes any major difference in sound or performance.

[stevek]

i did it first with my cm5s and thought i heard a difference so i just did it with the cm9 when i got them.i have now gone back to jumpers to see if i can tell the difference although i am the guy whith all the sound quality issues.lol.hope to someday figure it out
i am fairly new to all this and trying to wade through all the myths and truths and what a better way than to see how all the true audio guys do it.
kal, i read your reviews on the emotiva gear and i think tomorrow i will order an xpa-5 or 3 i was getting the 5 to biamp with but i guess i could just run 5 channels of it.

[KRC]

I bi-wire my 703's with AQ Slate, I drank the saleman's koolaid that bi-wire with AQ due to the wire gauge and configuration etc etc it is best. It is also more expensive to terminate then a straight stereo pair. I tested the theory using my old Monster Cable Powerline 2, but it was a poor test as it was apples and oranges in quality (ie I am not sure if the huge difference heard was the quality of the new cable or the fact it was bi-wired or both). It is hard enough financially to keep up with stereo/ht equipment, I could not imagine the added expense of bi-amping, as you are going backwards if you have two lesser amps then one real quality one. The next question is, if you are running a stereo pair, is that chunk of brass/copper binding the inputs together altering the sound at all? If the answer to that is yes, would that support cable companies marketing those six inch or so pieces of speaker cable for that purpose.

Kevin

[stevek]

kevin,i had been bi-ampimg with a denon 3312 and now an older onkyo"2008 model" i started experiencing lots of sound quality issues witch lead to me shipping out the denon."nothing wrong with amps but needed new hdmi and board"problem persisted with onkyo.so i nixed the bi amping and have gone back to straight 2 wire with the jumpers as of last night.including breaking out and old monster wire with the plastic tube down the middle.as of today things are sounding really good but ive been here before also.as for the stock jumpers they seem to work fine.
im definately a novice but i think the expensive cables are a fraud
i will have a new amp next week so i will see how that goes.cant afford to spend a lot of cash so i will buy an emotiva.

[emig5m]

Jumpers here. I'm a believer in a nice good solid amp with adequate gauge wire is as good as it gets.

[KRC]

stevek - I am probably going to say what alot of forum users are thinking, so take my following comment as constructive feedback. When building a system, whether stereo or HT, go slow, research where you are and where you plan to be and want to be. Unless you just won the lottery or got a huge inheritance you are building from the bottom as most of us have done. I personally have made errors in this quest for the holy grail, but through research and careful planning we can obtain a very satisfying system no matter the price point. At this point, do not worry about bi-amping etc, put together a balanced system that works for you.

Kevin

[stevek]

kevin,im starting to figure that out.thats why im here to learn from guys like you and everyone else who has been at at this for awhile.i am always up for any suggestions or advice.

[Briz vegas]

Bi wire. Unlike the other 804 owners here I heard a difference and preferred it.
Its a carry over from many many changes ago but I assume it still holds true with my current wires.

There is no price difference with the cables I use between bi and single so my decision had no financial consequences or perceived benefits.

I am referring to 2 channel audio, not HT, although by default it gets used there two.

[Alaric]

Bi-wire. Many folks will point to a piece of paper to "prove" I'm imagining a difference , but my bass is tighter and deeper. My speakers seem to have an odd crossover configuration , so maybe that contributes to it.

[madmac]

I bi-wire my 703's with AQ Slate, I drank the saleman's koolaid that bi-wire with AQ due to the wire gauge and configuration etc etc it is best. It is also more expensive to terminate then a straight stereo pair. I tested the theory using my old Monster Cable Powerline 2, but it was a poor test as it was apples and oranges in quality (ie I am not sure if the huge difference heard was the quality of the new cable or the fact it was bi-wired or both). It is hard enough financially to keep up with stereo/ht equipment, I could not imagine the added expense of bi-amping, as you are going backwards if you have two lesser amps then one real quality one. The next question is, if you are running a stereo pair, is that chunk of brass/copper binding the inputs together altering the sound at all? If the answer to that is yes, would that support cable companies marketing those six inch or so pieces of speaker cable for that purpose.

Kevin

That chunk of Brass/copper does not hurt the sound any more than the 'internal' wiring that crossovers have on the inside of simple +/- speaker configurations. What you really need for speakers to work their best is adequate power and reserve dynamic power. :T

One thing I will say is that because the 'bridge' is on the outside of the speakers, is that you routinely keep it clean of dust and dirt that may accumulate there. Also, every once and awhile, I 'clip' my speaker wiring and re-attach them to insure a clean, dirt free connection.....both at the amp AND at the speakers.

[madmac]

"im definately a novice but i think the expensive cables are a fraud"



Good cables are not a fraud. Cables also don't last forever and you can start getting 'hums' and other signal problems over time if you do not keep them clean and change them out over time. I have changed cables and have found very audible differences in the change of the sound. However, there is a limit to that philosophy and some people simply over do it because they have deeper pockets than me I guess!!

[stevek]

great imput guys,i have not tried bi-wiring just the bi amp and in a day or to i will know whether or not the way i had my speakers bi amped was causing distortion.
i went to straight 2 wire and things have cleared up as i mentioned before.
funny note i guess,had directv out today to check for signal issues and the guy said my problem was because i had the hdmi run to my avr and the avr was not good for switching hdmi.he said to run the hdmi to the tv and run the red and white cables back to avr.wow great advise.i almost asked him to leave

[specialized]

Jumpers here. I'm a believer in a nice good solid amp with adequate gauge wire is as good as it gets.

I agree with u.. After trying with biwiring, biamping..One Year ago, i have a luck to buy second hand Krell FPB-300C. What a difference.. Specialy connected with proper cables..Since then i just want to buy and listen a music..

So i agree BIG Amp + Proper Cables it's the match to heaven..


Greetings

Darko

[Kal Rubinson]

Cables also don't last forever and you can start getting 'hums' and other signal problems over time if you do not keep them clean and change them out over time.

Hum? From an aging speaker cable? :rofl:

[specialized]

Hum? From an aging speaker cable? :rofl:

I found a nirvana with speaker cable which is 10 years old , that i trade with my friend Maybe this cable sound that good after 10 years of aging becouse it's red wine color


Greetings


Darko

[bigburner]

I used to bi-wire but reverted to jumpers because I could not detect a difference in the sound.

Nigel.

[madmac]

Hum? From an aging speaker cable? :rofl:

Yep.....from any cable for that matter. I had a hum in one of my subs and it turned out to be the cable :W

[HedgeHog]

Initially I ran bi-wire from the CA5200 to the 802Di. Then I added a pair of CA-M400 and ran the same bi-wire set from that amp. Now I bi-amp the woofers to the CA-M400 and mid/tweet to the CA-5200 (new cables but same material - Belden). I heard a bigger difference using the CA-M400 in bi-wire than I did bi-amping. In fact, I heard the biggest difference swapping out those eBay/Nakamichi locking banana plugs with WBT locking bananas (seems like a richer, fuller sound).

Later, I augmented my cables w/ Mundorf 0.5mm gold hookup wire to each cable set (more authentic highs and instrument separation/imaging).

anyhoo...my CAD$0.02.

-Cheers,
Hedwig

[Kal Rubinson]

Yep.....from any cable for that matter. I had a hum in one of my subs and it turned out to be the cable :W

There's a difference between being defective and being old. Unless there is a structural defect, any audio cable should outlive any user or use and never hum..

[Mark_NZ]

I have bi-wired various loudspeakers for 15 years - it provides a very small improvement in separation of instruments. I have used modest priced cables and so the additional cost has not been an issue. I have been told, but not verified by comparison, that separate runs of loudspeaker cable are better than using the same cable to bi-wire. But it is only worthwhile trying if the additional cost and visual mess of additional cables does not incur the wrath of the décor police.

I have successfully bi-amped various loudspeakers (both in with my stereo and home-theatre systems) for about 7 years and it has always provided a worthwhile and obvious improvement. The improvement is in the separation of instruments (more obvious than from bi-wiring), improved dynamics, and increased midrange and treble detail. Also when I vertically bi-amp (i.e. one amplifier per loudspeaker as opposed to horizontal bi-amp) the stereo image is wider and better defined due separation of left and right amplifiers (similar to using separate mono amplifiers).

However bi-amp will not rescue a poorly balanced loudspeaker or let you get away with poor quality amplifiers.

It does provide a greater dynamic range than using one stereo amplifier and hence allows one to consider a smaller pair of stereo amplifiers instead of one large stereo amplifier. This is on the assumption that the smaller stereo amplifier can in fact drive your loudspeaker to a satisfactory level without clipping. Bi-amp with another small amplifier improves the quality of sound by reducing the stress on power supply. Also the amplifier channel driving the treble/midrange is not affected as much (potentially still a minor influence through common power supply) by the back-EMF from the bass units which are driven by the other channel. E.g. for a few years I successfully used the 60Watt Marantz SM17SA amplifiers on the 804S and 803D loudspeakers. I currently bi-amp with the Cambridge Audio 840W 200W amplifiers which given their modest price makes for a very cost-effective bi-amp solution.

Based on my experience my preference is always to bi-amp when I can afford the cost and space. In comparison the benefits of bi-wiring are marginal at best.

[stevek]

well i have my denon back witch i sent out due to distortion or what i thought was distortion.see distotion post
they found no problem with the amp.witch i figured due to my back up sounding poor to.
a better discription of what im hearing is very bright or harsh sound.very unpleasing to my ears.
i have a new amp xpa3 and some better cables coming later this week hopefully it will tame the harshness.i bought emo cables for now because i got a really good deal"45.00 a pair" and they "look really nice" so we shall see.
seems like a lot of different opinions on this thread.for now i will stick with the jumpers.if the emo cables make an audible difference i will pick up anoyher pair and maybe experiment with biwiring again.

[madmac]

There's a difference between being defective and being old. Unless there is a structural defect, any audio cable should outlive any user or use and never hum..

Well in my case, it was probably the connector itself that developed a small short somehow. Cables, especially floor cables do get moved around during vacuuming etc and this can cause a defect to occur. I do agree that cables and wire last a good long time but cable and connector technology changes for the better over time as well. I wouldn't use any wire that is more that 15-20 years old in my system.

[Tweir]

With my 803d's I use two full range cables per speaker. This speaker has two completely separate crossover sections in it and makes sense to divide the speaker wire.

[Kal Rubinson]

With my 803d's I use two full range cables per speaker. This speaker has two completely separate crossover sections in it and makes sense to divide the speaker wire.

The question is: how does it make sense, if it does not make a difference.

BTW, it was an executive at B&W who told me that the reason they provide dual terminal sets is to satisfy the demands of their dealers.

[Rod#S]

The question is: how does it make sense, if it does not make a difference.

BTW, it was an executive at B&W who told me that the reason they provide dual terminal sets is to satisfy the demands of their dealers.

Very interesting. Do you think there was also some money trading hands under the table perhaps because B&W go so far as to include the "benefits" of both bi-wiring and bi-amping in the literature that comes with each speaker. Hearing what you say would suggest something fishy is going on if the company is willing to state for the record the benefits but in reality don't believe in it. This doesn't diminish my love of the B&W sound and my speakers but is curious nontheless.

[stuofsci02]

I think probably within B&W there are those who hear a difference and those who don't. I am sure B&W makes their speaker with two terminals to satisfy those who hear a difference, and for those who want to bi-amp. I am guessing the literature is there so that they don't continually get asked why there is two sets of terminals.

I do not bi-wire because I do not hear a difference. Also, as an electrical engineer I do not see a benefit from a scientific point of view either.

Cheers!

[Tweir]

It has been awhile since I have done actual testing to see if I can hear a difference. The wire on my system now is from an accommodation point program with AQ and I did not pay for the current wire I have. I remember from testing in the past the overal system sounded better and the bass felt to be stronger. I might want to test this out again and see what the results are this time......

[Tweir]

I think gauge is probably the important part of this. Instead of using a 14/4 using an 11/2 would be the equivalent. If using an 11/4 then 9/2 what is better using 2 big conductors vs 4 smaller but the equivalent in gauge. Also I would say whatever gauge you are using the jumper would need to be of the same gauge as well.

[DeepEndX]

My current system is biwire & B&W recommended and the speakers wire that I bought from Agon are biwire. However, I remember testing it 3 years ago, I couldn't hear any sonic differences between biwire and jumpers.

[stevek]

great to see this post generating interest.
i hear no difference between bi-wire and jumpers in my system but i definitly hear a difference when bi-amping."low freq."
i bought an emo xpa-3 anyone have an opinion about bi-amping with a combination of the denon 125wpc and the xpa-3 200wpc.is it ok or a bad idea?

[Tweir]

If you want to bi-amp you have to keep the amps the same power,voltage. In your case use either the denon front channels and the surround back channels to bi-amp the fronts or get two xpa-3's and bi-amp the entire front sound stage....

[stuofsci02]

great to see this post generating interest.
i hear no difference between bi-wire and jumpers in my system but i definitly hear a difference when bi-amping."low freq."
i bought an emo xpa-3 anyone have an opinion about bi-amping with a combination of the denon 125wpc and the xpa-3 200wpc.is it ok or a bad idea?

I really see little point to passive bi-amping even with the same amps on high and low. For the price you would be better off with a better amp. I would not try to combine your XPA-3 and your AVR..

[Tweir]

I really see little point to passive bi-amping even with the same amps on high and low. For the price you would be better off with a better amp. I would not try to combine your XPA-3 and your AVR..

Bigger amp is better than two smaller amp all the time....

[htsteve]

Bigger amp is better than two smaller amp all the time....

I agree. I've tried passive bi-amping twice. And both times ended up with a single powerfull stereo amp.