802n's Help, Please?

[steelgtr]

I have a Pio Elite 59txi RCVR, currently bi-amping B&W 805N's.

I'd like to get a pair of 802N's but want to make sure that the 59 will power them adequately? (160/channel, bi ampable)

I'd appreciate some advise before I spend some big money

thx

bob

[stuofsci02]

Watch out.. They rate that AVR 160 wpc into 6 ohms only...

The N802 dips into the ~3 ohm range which can be very hard on AVRs especially.

The fact that they don't have a 4 ohm rating on the pioneer leaves me wondering.

It bothers me when a company gives their full power into 6 ohms.. The only reason I can see to do it is to be tricky...

[steelgtr]

Watch out.. They rate that AVR 160 wpc into 6 ohms only...

The N802 dips into the ~3 ohm range which can be very hard on AVRs especially.

The fact that they don't have a 4 ohm rating on the pioneer leaves me wondering.

It bothers me when a company gives their full power into 6 ohms.. The only reason I can see to do it is to be tricky...

Can you decipher this for me? Good? Bad?

thx

bob



Pioneer VSX-59TXi A/V Receiver Measurements
Measurements

All measurements were taken on the left channel. The VSX-59TXi's stereo analog frequency response, from the CD input to the speaker output in Stream Direct1 mode, was –1.72dB at 10Hz, -0.5dB at 20Hz, -0.12dB at 20kHz, and -0.72dB at 50kHz. The response from the multichannel input to the speaker output in Stream Direct3 mode measured –1.29dB at 10Hz, -0.04dB at 20Hz, -0.09dB at 20kHz, and -0.48dB at 50kHz.

The Dolby Digital frequency response (optical input to speaker output) measured –0.02dB at 20Hz and –0.13dB at 20kHz, left channel (-0.03dB at 20Hz and –0.09dB at 20kHz, center channel). With the surround left channel set to "small" and the crossover frequency set to 80Hz, the highpass filter response was –3dB at 81Hz, –6dB at 61Hz, and –0.10dB at 20kHz. The LFE line output, normalized to the response at 40Hz, was –0.09dB at 20Hz, -3dB at 118Hz, and –6dB at 124Hz.

The S/N (A-weighted, 2.83V@8Ω) measured –99.7dB. Gain measured 28.8dB, CD in to speaker out, with an 8Ω load and the level control set to +2.5.

THD+noise in stereo at 2.83V into 8Ω measured 0.012% at 20Hz and 1kHz and 0.008% at 20kHz. At 2.83V into 4Ω, the corresponding results were 0.013% at 20Hz, 0.015% at 1kHz, and 0.007% at 20kHz.

Driving all seven channels into 8Ω, the VSX-59TXi delivered 133Wpc at 20Hz and 140Wpc at 1kHz (to the nearest watt) before clipping (1% THD+noise). Into 4Ω, all seven channels operating, it delivered 181Wpc at 20Hz and 183Wpc at 1kHz. The 4Ω test blew the internal mains fuse; Digital Safety was turned off for all tests.

With only two channels operating, at 1kHz, the Pioneer clipped at 151Wpc into 8Ω and 276Wpc into 4Ω.—TJN

[Miketr75]

I used to have a pair of N802 feed them with the 2 channels from my BAT 200 wpc at 8 ohm and I didn't like it, I felt the N802 needed more power .

[stuofsci02]

Can you decipher this for me? Good? Bad?

thx

bob



Pioneer VSX-59TXi A/V Receiver Measurements
Measurements

All measurements were taken on the left channel. The VSX-59TXi's stereo analog frequency response, from the CD input to the speaker output in Stream Direct1 mode, was –1.72dB at 10Hz, -0.5dB at 20Hz, -0.12dB at 20kHz, and -0.72dB at 50kHz. The response from the multichannel input to the speaker output in Stream Direct3 mode measured –1.29dB at 10Hz, -0.04dB at 20Hz, -0.09dB at 20kHz, and -0.48dB at 50kHz.

The Dolby Digital frequency response (optical input to speaker output) measured –0.02dB at 20Hz and –0.13dB at 20kHz, left channel (-0.03dB at 20Hz and –0.09dB at 20kHz, center channel). With the surround left channel set to "small" and the crossover frequency set to 80Hz, the highpass filter response was –3dB at 81Hz, –6dB at 61Hz, and –0.10dB at 20kHz. The LFE line output, normalized to the response at 40Hz, was –0.09dB at 20Hz, -3dB at 118Hz, and –6dB at 124Hz.

The S/N (A-weighted, 2.83V@8Ω) measured –99.7dB. Gain measured 28.8dB, CD in to speaker out, with an 8Ω load and the level control set to +2.5.

THD+noise in stereo at 2.83V into 8Ω measured 0.012% at 20Hz and 1kHz and 0.008% at 20kHz. At 2.83V into 4Ω, the corresponding results were 0.013% at 20Hz, 0.015% at 1kHz, and 0.007% at 20kHz.

Driving all seven channels into 8Ω, the VSX-59TXi delivered 133Wpc at 20Hz and 140Wpc at 1kHz (to the nearest watt) before clipping (1% THD+noise). Into 4Ω, all seven channels operating, it delivered 181Wpc at 20Hz and 183Wpc at 1kHz. The 4Ω test blew the internal mains fuse; Digital Safety was turned off for all tests.

With only two channels operating, at 1kHz, the Pioneer clipped at 151Wpc into 8Ω and 276Wpc into 4Ω.—TJN

The N802 is a 8 ohm speaker, but all speaker's impedance vary with frequency. Usually at lower frequency the speaker has a lower impedance. In the case of the N802 is drops into the 3 ohm range.

An amps job is to maintain the voltage output across the speaker while delivering current. When the amp cannot meet the current demands, voltage will start to drop and the waveforms are clipped. This is clipping.

The lower the impedance of the speaker, the more current it will demand at the same voltage. This does mean that power delivered will also go up. The problem is that some amps (and a lot of AVRs) cannot deliver the current into the lower impedances. This can lead to a thin and veiled sound, and in worse cases clipping.

In a perfect world an amp that can deliver 100 watts into 8 ohms should deliver 200 watts into 4 ohms and 400 watts into 2 ohms. But in reality few amps can do this.

By Pioneer rating their amps into 6 ohms they are playing a game in my opinion as it lets them rate the amp at up to 1.5 times its 8 ohm output. Unless you know how this works, most people will assume that this AVR has more power then another AVR that is 150 watts into 8 ohms. This is not true however.

This is reflected in what you posted, as it can only deliver 133 wpc into 8 ohms with all channels driven. Also note that this was a 1% THD which I think is rather generous. In general I feel an amps true output should be at 0.1% THD which would mean that the real world numbers would be even lower then 133 wpc.

From what you posted, it looks like the AVR can do ~150 wpc into 8 ohms in stereo, and can handle 4 ohms, so you could give it a try.

I would still consider adding an external AMP. Even an inexpensive amp from Emotiva should bring considerable gains.

Cheers,

Stuart

[steelgtr]

The N802 is a 8 ohm speaker, but all speaker's impedance vary with frequency. Usually at lower frequency the speaker has a lower impedance. In the case of the N802 is drops into the 3 ohm range.

An amps job is to maintain the voltage output across the speaker while delivering current. When the amp cannot meet the current demands, voltage will start to drop and the waveforms are clipped. This is clipping.

The lower the impedance of the speaker, the more current it will demand at the same voltage. This does mean that power delivered will also go up. The problem is that some amps (and a lot of AVRs) cannot deliver the current into the lower impedances. This can lead to a thin and veiled sound, and in worse cases clipping.

In a perfect world an amp that can deliver 100 watts into 8 ohms should deliver 200 watts into 4 ohms and 400 watts into 2 ohms. But in reality few amps can do this.

By Pioneer rating their amps into 6 ohms they are playing a game in my opinion as it lets them rate the amp at up to 1.5 times its 8 ohm output. Unless you know how this works, most people will assume that this AVR has more power then another AVR that is 150 watts into 8 ohms. This is not true however.

This is reflected in what you posted, as it can only deliver 133 wpc into 8 ohms with all channels driven. Also note that this was a 1% THD which I think is rather generous. In general I feel an amps true output should be at 0.1% THD which would mean that the real world numbers would be even lower then 133 wpc.

From what you posted, it looks like the AVR can do ~150 wpc into 8 ohms in stereo, and can handle 4 ohms, so you could give it a try.

I would still consider adding an external AMP. Even an inexpensive amp from Emotiva should bring considerable gains.

Cheers,

Stuart

Thanks, Stuart

How much does bi-amping help me here?

bob

[IceG]

IMHO you need lots of big expensive watts to drive the 802Ns. I went from Audiolab 8000P + 8000Ms (=2 x 225w) to 2 x Meridian 557 (4 x 200w) to Chord 1600 (4 x 200w) to Chord 1200E (2 x 350W but with massive capacity for low resistance like the 802Ns). It got better (but with diminishing returns) each time but I still feel that I need more.

If you try using an integrated receiver (now matter how well speced) I suspect you will end up with floppy bass, clipping and the occasional blown tweeter as it will struggle to supply the current needed to move and stop the drivers.

Bi-amping (assuming you mean 2 power amp channel per speaker and not bi-wiring) will not help if it is all coming from one power source. I would highly recommend it if you have a couple of big stereo power amps.

[stuofsci02]

Nice to see another with Chord amps!

[steelgtr]

IMHO you need lots of big expensive watts to drive the 802Ns. I went from Audiolab 8000P + 8000Ms (=2 x 225w) to 2 x Meridian 557 (4 x 200w) to Chord 1600 (4 x 200w) to Chord 1200E (2 x 350W but with massive capacity for low resistance like the 802Ns). It got better (but with diminishing returns) each time but I still feel that I need more.

If you try using an integrated receiver (now matter how well speced) I suspect you will end up with floppy bass, clipping and the occasional blown tweeter as it will struggle to supply the current needed to move and stop the drivers.

Bi-amping (assuming you mean 2 power amp channel per speaker and not bi-wiring) will not help if it is all coming from one power source. I would highly recommend it if you have a couple of big stereo power amps.

I have a B&K 200wx3 power amp that didn't seem any different with 805's.


I also have an old Carver that's suppose to be 350x2 but It;s awfully light and thin.


thx


bob

[steelgtr]

Would 804 or 803's be a much better candidate?

thx

bob

[mskvarenina]

IMHO you need lots of big expensive watts to drive the 802Ns.

Agree with this. I've got the 802Ns and used to power then with a Denon AVR-5803 (170wpc). At loud volumes the bass died and the amp clipped. You're going to need ALOT more power to hear them right...

[IceG]

I auditioned the Nautilus 803s with a single Meridian 557 and was very impressed. In most domestic situations they are probably a better speaker than the 802s in practical terms. Can't comment on the 804s - never heard them - but I know the 805s are really cute and toe-tapping but with little scary bass, I would want a lot of extra to move away from them.

[Pedro]

The N802 are so harder to drive as the 802D, but this last one is more friendly when we talk about matching the type of sound (sound signature) that gear has. For them you´ll need at minimum a 400x2 amp or at least an amp which can handle 2ohm impedance (coz these beasts can go down to 1,8ohm)!!

[bvk_houtx]

I had a pair of 802Ns and was driving them with a McIntosh amp that was rated at 80 watts 8 ohm / 140 watts 4 ohm. They sounded great, but I always thought something was lacking. If I had a choice I would have used a MC-352 to drive them, sadly I did not have a choice. These were the best sounding speakers I have owned. If you can get the speakers don't hesitate. Please note you, will need a friend to help move and install these speakers, they weigh 175 punds.