TRON Legacy soundtrack clipping

[Rod#S]

Hello;

I picked up TRON Legacy last week and when viewing I noticed numerous times what seemed to be distortion/clipping coming from my front speakers from the intense soundtrack. This has been the first film I have noticed this occur on any movie and I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this?

I notice it most on the center which has to do double duty of dialog and music/effects sounds. My center channel is the HTM2 Diamond being driven by one of the channels of a Bryston 6B-SST spec'd at 330 watts at clipping. I live in a relatively small apartment with the HT room being appx. 15x17 connected to a 7x12 room so it doesn't really take a lot of power to fill the room. The HTM2 is crossed over to the sub at 60Hz.

Another general question, do people find the dialog really hard to make out by times due to the intense reverb used? I find the reverb so intense it borders on a really tight short echo.

Thanks,

Rod

[bows3r]

Hello;

I picked up TRON Legacy last week and when viewing I noticed numerous times what seemed to be distortion/clipping coming from my front speakers from the intense soundtrack. This has been the first film I have noticed this occur on any movie and I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this?

I notice it most on the center which has to do double duty of dialog and music/effects sounds. My center channel is the HTM2 Diamond being driven by one of the channels of a Bryston 6B-SST spec'd at 330 watts at clipping. I live in a relatively small apartment with the HT room being appx. 15x17 connected to a 7x12 room so it doesn't really take a lot of power to fill the room. The HTM2 is crossed over to the sub at 60Hz.

Another general question, do people find the dialog really hard to make out by times due to the intense reverb used? I find the reverb so intense it borders on a really tight short echo.

Thanks,

Rod

I work at a movie theater and this movie destroyed few of our surrounds. I love the soundtrack though

[madmac]

I would cross to the sub @ 80Hz. Send everything lower than that to the sub. At 60hz, your taxing the center with too much bass and overall information.

[Rod#S]

I would cross to the sub @ 80Hz. Send everything lower than that to the sub. At 60hz, your taxing the center with too much bass and overall information.

Yeah I thought about doing this but I found being abe to open up the frequencies from 80Hz (my previous Paradigm Reference Studio CCv2) to 60Hz made a huge difference across the front front soudstage. The imaging was much larger and warmer so I'm hesitent to raise it again. If what I experienced with TRON was happening with everything then I would switch in an instant.

Rod

[BdoUK]

I cross my CM9s and CMC2 over at 80Hz. I played the soundtrack fairly loud this weekend and didn't notice any clipping. I'm powering my CM series speakers with a RB-1090 and RB-1075 (center is bi-amped).

This is by far one of the most aggressive and best sounding surround mixes I've ever heard. The LFE effects are hard hitting and the Daft Punk soundtrack never fails to disappoint. I wasn't expecting much out of the movie itself, but I came away pleasantly surprised by how fun of a ride the whole thing was. The cycle battle will be a system demo for many years to come!

[scanido]

Watched the movie as well over the weekend and by far this movie takes the cake as far as demonstrating your system! I previously used Darknight, but this is a in a whole new league. Amazing surround sound steering and LFE!!! The audio engineer did a fantastic job on this soundtrack.

I played my system roughly -8db off reference and it was pushing my MC205 amp and F113 sub fairly hard. Did not see the powergaurd lights go off but the meters were very close to the 200w threshold. I did not notice any clipping from any channels. All front speakers utilize a 63hz x-over.

[Rod#S]

Thanks for the responses guys. Indeed I agree, this is demo material all the way, above and beyond anything else I have heard.

scanido, what speakers are you using across the front?

I forgot to mention that my mains, Paradigm Reference Studio 100v2 are crossed over at 50Hz. I am using analog connections, not digital via HDMI because my Lexicon MC-12BEQ does not have HDMI inputs.

[scanido]

Thanks for the responses guys. Indeed I agree, this is demo material all the way, above and beyond anything else I have heard.

scanido, what speakers are you using across the front?

I forgot to mention that my mains, Paradigm Reference Studio 100v2 are crossed over at 50Hz. I am using analog connections, not digital via HDMI because my Lexicon MC-12BEQ does not have HDMI inputs.

802 Diamonds, HTM3S <- plan to one day get the matching HTM2 Diamond but have not felt a need as the HTM3S integrates surprisingly well.

[Rod#S]

802 Diamonds, HTM3S <- plan to one day get the matching HTM2 Diamond but have not felt a need as the HTM3S integrates surprisingly well.

Thanks, so if you are using a HTM3S and crossing over at 63Hz with no clipping and I am using 60Hz and getting clipping I may up my crossover to 70Hz (my MC-12 only allows 10Hz increments). The issue could also be that I am using analog. I remember having problems years ago when playing SACD and DVD-A discs via my analog connections, often the levels would red-line and the signal would clip.

[madmac]

Yeah I thought about doing this but I found being abe to open up the frequencies from 80Hz (my previous Paradigm Reference Studio CCv2) to 60Hz made a huge difference across the front front soudstage. The imaging was much larger and warmer so I'm hesitent to raise it again. If what I experienced with TRON was happening with everything then I would switch in an instant.

Rod

My speakers and subs work best @ 80hz crossover. Most speakers with 6 inch and smaller drivers don't display audio below 80hz very well. I tried 60hz and 100hz and 80 sounded best. It's probably because my bass was optimized and EQ'd using them with an 80hz crossover setting. Duh??? :unsure:

[style]

scanido with the 802 and your sub a 50 max 80 for the xover is more as enough! ops:

try! I have all the speakers in big (maybe with the ssp800 is different vs. the MC -> but are 2 great processor) center 50hz, center 60hz and reat 70.



style

[Rod#S]

scanido with the 802 and your sub a 50 max 80 for the xover is more as enough! ops:

try! I have all the speakers in big (maybe with the ssp800 is different vs. the MC -> but are 2 great processor) center 50hz, center 60hz and reat 70.



style

Hi style are you saying you have your left/right mains set to 50Hz, your center at 60Hz and your rears at 70Hz or are you saying something else?

[style]

Hi Rod,

that right.

L&R mains speaker (with 803di and 802di) a xover frm 50hz or max 60hz. is enough!

I have more feedback from B&W self over the correct and richt crossover the use with the new speakers.
a crossover from 80hz. with the 802 is very not a good set: this is what B&W say me.

Style

[madmac]

I can't say I'm a believer in setting different low pass HZ settings to various speakers in a HT setup at all. The whole concept for HT and multichannel music is seamless sound. By having different settings for individual speakers you will get different sound and performance from each one making the overall sound NOT seamless. Also, in probably 90% of cases as well, I believe that all speakers should be set to small. Let the sub or subs do the heavy and power consuming work at presenting the super low bass content. You are only duplicating bass efforts by setting speakers to large.

Just my 2 cents!!!

[mrciave]

Totally speaking from intuition, as I'm a pure 2ch guy, your idea of "seamless" would work well with all speakers the same model. Then it would be correct to set the same x-over frequency.

But when you have, like style, 803 or 802 in front, and 805 in rear, I guess his idea is to let each speaker do as much job as it can, depending on its frequency response, and use sub(s) to compensate only what the various speakers can not do.

I guess in a perfect world with perfect full range speakers (10Hz-40kHz), you would have 7 of these speakers around, and no sub at all, wouldn't you?

Then of course if we start considering the room LF response, then if placing the sub in a place for best LF response, it might be that its LF response till, say, 100Hz would be better than the one from the satellites.

Mmmm, enough from a guy that never even listened to an HT setup :lol: .

[Rod#S]

Totally speaking from intuition, as I'm a pure 2ch guy, your idea of "seamless" would work well with all speakers the same model. Then it would be correct to set the same x-over frequency.

But when you have, like style, 803 or 802 in front, and 805 in rear, I guess his idea is to let each speaker do as much job as it can, depending on its frequency response, and use sub(s) to compensate only what the various speakers can not do.

I guess in a perfect world with perfect full range speakers (10Hz-40kHz), you would have 7 of these speakers around, and no sub at all, wouldn't you?

Then of course if we start considering the room LF response, then if placing the sub in a place for best LF response, it might be that its LF response till, say, 100Hz would be better than the one from the satellites.

Mmmm, enough from a guy that never even listened to an HT setup :lol: .

This is exactly the approach I take. I set the crossover for each speaker group based on the speaker's capability to get the most out of the speaker otherwise I may as well stick with stand mounted speakers and save some money. If I wanted to achieve the same crossover and response I would absolutely do as you suggest and get 7 identical speakers. I always looked at the 80Hz crossover as a bookshelf or stand mounted speaker setting and that is a very practical way of having 7 identical speakers. Since their frequency response typically doesn't go much below 80 Hz that number just makes sense. Obviously getting 7 identical tower speakers is impractical for most people, not that I wouldn't mind having 7 802 or 800 Diamonds :B

[madmac]

Totally speaking from intuition, as I'm a pure 2ch guy, your idea of "seamless" would work well with all speakers the same model. Then it would be correct to set the same x-over frequency.

But when you have, like style, 803 or 802 in front, and 805 in rear, I guess his idea is to let each speaker do as much job as it can, depending on its frequency response, and use sub(s) to compensate only what the various speakers can not do.

I guess in a perfect world with perfect full range speakers (10Hz-40kHz), you would have 7 of these speakers around, and no sub at all, wouldn't you?

Then of course if we start considering the room LF response, then if placing the sub in a place for best LF response, it might be that its LF response till, say, 100Hz would be better than the one from the satellites.

Mmmm, enough from a guy that never even listened to an HT setup :lol: .

Well said!! All my speakers are the same model series, use the same drivers of the same size and composition. :T

[madmac]

This is exactly the approach I take. I set the crossover for each speaker group based on the speaker's capability to get the most out of the speaker otherwise I may as well stick with stand mounted speakers and save some money. If I wanted to achieve the same crossover and response I would absolutely do as you suggest and get 7 identical speakers. I always looked at the 80Hz crossover as a bookshelf or stand mounted speaker setting and that is a very practical way of having 7 identical speakers. Since their frequency response typically doesn't go much below 80 Hz that number just makes sense. Obviously getting 7 identical tower speakers is impractical for most people, not that I wouldn't mind having 7 802 or 800 Diamonds :B

That being said and I understand what you are doing, I would 'experiment' with each speaker crossover setting (It's gonna' be hard and messy!!) , listen for the difference and finally choose the settings that produce the most desirable sound presentation. :W

[madmac]

I guess in a perfect world with perfect full range speakers (10Hz-40kHz), you would have 7 of these speakers around, and no sub at all, wouldn't you?

You would always have a sub for the concept known as LFE (Low freq effects). In a Dolby Digital and DTS setup, those 'effects' are sent ONLY to the sub and would not be presented by the main speakers (Or at least...improperly!). When you set your speakers to small, BOTH the LFE and all other bass information below the selected frequency setting cut off are sent to the sub together. It is my understanding that a HT system displaying DD and DTS should have a sub for these LFE .

[Rod#S]

That being said and I understand what you are doing, I would 'experiment' with each speaker crossover setting (It's gonna' be hard and messy!!) , listen for the difference and finally choose the settings that produce the most desirable sound presentation. :W

Yeah I'm going to do that this weekend I think. What I'm thinking is really the issue is I'm assuming unlike everyone else I'm the only one using analog and it is more susceptible to clipping and I wouldn't have the issue if I was going digital via HDMI as no one else with comparable setups to my own has noticed any clipping.

[Rod#S]

I guess in a perfect world with perfect full range speakers (10Hz-40kHz), you would have 7 of these speakers around, and no sub at all, wouldn't you?

You would always have a sub for the concept known as LFE (Low freq effects). In a Dolby Digital and DTS setup, those 'effects' are sent ONLY to the sub and would not be presented by the main speakers (Or at least...improperly!). When you set your speakers to small, BOTH the LFE and all other bass information below the selected frequency setting cut off are sent to the sub together. It is my understanding that a HT system displaying DD and DTS should have a sub for these LFE .

Well 7 plus the sub for the reason you mention, the dedicated LFE signal. With my Lexicon MC-12 I use 3 subs, one, a Paradigm Reference Signature Sub-25 only receives the LFE (.1) signal, so for example if I am listening to a stereo source nothing goes to this sub, it only gets a signal from a 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 etc. source. I use 2 other subs, 2 Paradigm Reference Servo15a's for handling the low frequences from the satellite speakers, so anything below the crossovers goes to these 2 subwoofers with nothing bleeding into the Sub-25.

[mrciave]

I see, so the perfect world would be 7 full range speakers + 1 LFE sub. :lol:

[Rod#S]

I see, so the perfect world would be 7 full range speakers + 1 LFE sub. :lol:

Yeah, for home theater that would be the holy grail in my opinion. Now you could always add additional LFE subs to fill out the room better, one on each wall would be interesting to try.

[style]

Hi,

I have try a setup with "small" and "big" speaker: for me with the "big" settng is better: give me more sadisfaction. but is too a parsonal taste.
and now we speak with the "Tron Legacy" that is a great soundtrack! the last movie are always more with special effect, with new technologie,... other old movie, remake from old soundtrack have another "sound" vs. the new movie version technologie.
i have one sub, and I don't will have more sub!: with my speakers I'm happy with the LF work they make! I dont need a extra part (read Sub) the help the spaeker the have the Lfe effect! and you do that have a perfect matching from the speakers and the sub is not so easy like connect a cable!
have a HT from B&W 804 without sub or 805 with 2 sub? I go with the 804! no doubt!
the "track" have a big part in this tread is not only a question of set small of big.
style

[Rod#S]

Hi Rod,

that right.

L&R mains speaker (with 803di and 802di) a xover frm 50hz or max 60hz. is enough!

I have more feedback from B&W self over the correct and richt crossover the use with the new speakers.
a crossover from 80hz. with the 802 is very not a good set: this is what B&W say me.

Style

Hi style,

So B&W actually recommend a crossover of between 50Hz-60Hz with the 802 Diamonds? This must be what they recommend for the high end range of the cross over because I don't see any harm in crossing them over in the 30Hz-40Hz range if desired or am I wrong in making that statement? I would think the 802's are good candidates for running full range if desired.

Rod

[Rod#S]

...

I played my system roughly -8db off reference and it was pushing my MC205 amp and F113 sub fairly hard. Did not see the powergaurd lights go off but the meters were very close to the 200w threshold. I did not notice any clipping from any channels. All front speakers utilize a 63hz x-over.

scanido, I am curious, why the 63Hz x-over and not say an even 60 or 50 or even 65? Just wondering how you arrived at 63Hz?

I just looked up the specs of your MC205, that's the McIntosh MC205 correct? Interesting that it is a 5 channel 200 watt per channel amp and you did not experience any clipping vs my 3 channel 330 watt per channel amp. Are you using HDMI for your audio? If so then that all but confirms for me my issue with the clipping must be resulting from using analog. The 96Hz/24bit ADC's in my MC-12 must just be getting overdriven. I'll check the Lexicon's VU meter next time I'm watching the movie to see if it's red lining a lot. In the past though with intense DVD-A and SACD discs a red LED on the Lexicon main display would light up indicating clipping. I'm not sure if that happened with TRON or not, I'll keep an eye on the display as well next time.

Thanks

Rod

[scanido]

scanido, I am curious, why the 63Hz x-over and not say an even 60 or 50 or even 65? Just wondering how you arrived at 63Hz?

I just looked up the specs of your MC205, that's the McIntosh MC205 correct? Interesting that it is a 5 channel 200 watt per channel amp and you did not experience any clipping vs my 3 channel 330 watt per channel amp. Are you using HDMI for your audio? If so then that all but confirms for me my issue with the clipping must be resulting from using analog. The 96Hz/24bit ADC's in my MC-12 must just be getting overdriven. I'll check the Lexicon's VU meter next time I'm watching the movie to see if it's red lining a lot. In the past though with intense DVD-A and SACD discs a red LED on the Lexicon main display would light up indicating clipping. I'm not sure if that happened with TRON or not, I'll keep an eye on the display as well next time.

Thanks

Rod

Hi Rod,

The 63Hz x-over is one of the predefined xover points in the MX150. As I can recall some of the available xover points are 50hz, 63hz, 80hz. I haven't experimented with anything else as the 63Hz was not too high nor low and thought it would give me the best balance in terms of getting the most out of my amp and getting decent bass from the L / R speakers. Your guess is as good as mine as to why Mac arrived at a 63hz xover.

The MC205 in real terms outputs closer to 300w per channel. All of their amps have a feature called "PowerGaurd" that basically compares the output and input stage of the amp so that you never get a clipped signal to the speakers.

Yes, the audio was played via HDMI.

Have you tried running the same scene in question via an Optical/Coaxial connection. You would not get the lossless track but you may be able to uncover where the culprit is.

[Rod#S]

Hi Rod,

The 63Hz x-over is one of the predefined xover points in the MX150. As I can recall some of the available xover points are 50hz, 63hz, 80hz. I haven't experimented with anything else as the 63Hz was not too high nor low and thought it would give me the best balance in terms of getting the most out of my amp and getting decent bass from the L / R speakers. Your guess is as good as mine as to why Mac arrived at a 63hz xover.

The MC205 in real terms outputs closer to 300w per channel. All of their amps have a feature called "PowerGaurd" that basically compares the output and input stage of the amp so that you never get a clipped signal to the speakers.

Yes, the audio was played via HDMI.

Have you tried running the same scene in question via an Optical/Coaxial connection. You would not get the lossless track but you may be able to uncover where the culprit is.

Thanks for the response.

No I haven't tried using my coax but that will be an interesting experiment to try. I'll give it a try next time I put the movie in.

[ninja12]

Hi style,

I don't see any harm in crossing them over in the 30Hz-40Hz range if desired or am I wrong in making that statement? I would think the 802's are good candidates for running full range if desired.

Rod

One thing you have to be careful of and ask yourself is even though the specs say that the speakers can play down to 30 Hz how clean is it and with how much authority. Let's say you are listening at reference level. How will the speakers respond to the low frequencies playing at that level? Are the low frequencies clean? Are the low frequencies distorting? Even though the specs for some speakers say that they can play down in the low frequencies, I still think it's always best to let the sub handle the low frequencies because that's what they are built to do. IMO, a speaker played at full range will not sound as good and produce the low frequencies the way that a decent sub can.

That's just my .02. I always say, it's your system, and as long as it sounds good to you and you are satisfied, then sit back and enjoy.

[Isaac]

80Hz

I have always set my Home theater system to small speakers with crossover point at 80Hz. Even if you have large speakers 80 Hz will sound more dynamic. I set it to 80 because thats what THX used to recommend. I played around many times with other setting but, I always put it back to 80 Hz. Some people might be thinking they want to get the most out of their large speakers by setting them to lower crossover points but, instead they are actually pushing their speakers beyond their limit and introducing more distortion.

I also love TRON:Legacy, have the Blu-ray and the Soundtrack. :T

[emig5m]

My fronts are set to 40Hz and I had no problem with Tron Legacy (804S/HTM3S).

[Rod#S]

Wow, you are down to 40Hz with the HTM3S and no clipping. Were you using the dts-HD Master Audio track via HDMI? I still haven't done the experiment of just using the Dolby Digital soundtrack via my coax connection but will report back when I do. I would assume at this point if I still hear clipping then there is something wrong with my speaker.

Something else I noticed, I have been watching the new Battlestar Gallactica series on Blu-ray and I have been noticing that sometimes when Admiral Adama (Edward James Olmos) speaks it sounds like the speaker breaks up. This doesn't happen all of the time, quite rarely given the number of episodes over the 4 seasons but when it does happen it stands out immediately. If the speaker isn't breaking up then Olmos has the most raspy voice across a very narrow frequency band of anyone I have ever heard which gives the very real impression of the speaker breaking up.

[Kevin D]

Also keep in mind a crossover is not a brick wall. There will still be info sent below the crossover, just at an ever decreasing volume per octive.

Kevin D.

[emig5m]

Wow, you are down to 40Hz with the HTM3S and no clipping. Were you using the dts-HD Master Audio track via HDMI? I still haven't done the experiment of just using the Dolby Digital soundtrack via my coax connection but will report back when I do. I would assume at this point if I still hear clipping then there is something wrong with my speaker.

My pre/pro/Audyssey actually sets my front three to large with no crossover but I like the added bottom "weight" to the bass with the speakers crossed over to the sub. Reason I don't do the standard 80Hz is that my front speakers seem to have more tighter and cleaner bass than my Sunfire sub so I like to cross over as low as possible and only use the sub for adding that weight in the bass that's missing from the 804S on their own. Works out perfect for me. I would love to wind up with a sub one day that has the tightness of my former Velodyne MiniVee, but with the raw power of the Sunfire while maintaining that small form-factor.

Yea, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with Tron - sounded great like all quality made movies and I normally play near reference levels (seating position 9ft away from front speakers). I have yet to EVER hear any of my B&W's clip that's noticeably audible without measuring instruments...maybe it's the electronics clipping? I have my speaker grills on and watch movies with all the lights out so I wasn't monitoring woofer movement though....but nothing audible that caught my ear...sounded clean and clear just like always.

[ninja12]

I had a chance to watch Tron last night. I watched it at 10db below reference, and I didn't have any clipping problems. The sound was very nice and clean and tight. I give this movie a :T . BTW, my 802Ds and HTM1D are crossed at 60 Hz.

[Scotteh]

I've also had no clipping, got my Blu-Ray from the USA last Monday and it was the first time I've had a call from the concierge asking if I can "turn my music down" haha. Absolutely fantastic looking and sounding film, definitely a demo must!

I also have my crossover set at 80Hz going from my Arcam AVR400 to my CM9's, CMC2, CM5's and ASW10 sub.

[Rod#S]

Also keep in mind a crossover is not a brick wall. There will still be info sent below the crossover, just at an ever decreasing volume per octive.

Kevin D.

Yeah and depending on the crossover used it can vary. I know in my Lexicon when a THX mode is engaged the loss is 12dB/octave for all main and surround speakers (24dB/octave for subs) rather than 24dB/octave which all other modes use I believe.

[Rod#S]

I just finished watching the movie again, this time using my digital coax connection for the legacy dts 5.1 soundtrack, I was surprised it wasn't a dts-ES Discrete mix (if it was it wasn't properly flagged as such) seeing as the Master Audio track was 7.1. The verdict is, no distortion or clipping so the issue I have with my analog is one of 3 things, the analog cables, my player or my receiver.

[Rod#S]

I have been thinking more about this, is it somehow possible that the difference in resolution specs between the DACs in the player and the ADCs in the processor could be the culprit? My Denon DVD-A1 has 32bit/192kHz Wolfsan DACs whereas the Lexicon MC-12B has 24bit/96kHz Burr Brown ADCs. Is it possible that the down sampling from 32/192 to 24/96 can be clipping the 24/94 signal path? If this was the case, I have over 100 Blu-rays and I would think I would notice clipping on all of them but TRON is literally the only disc I have encountered this situation.

The other thing I noticed was that in the movie when Sam enters the computer world there is what sounds like some serious reverb on most of the actors voices that continues throughout the movie but this wasn't present when using the digital coax. I found it quite hard to make out what the actors were saying from time to time because of this. Perhaps this reverb effect isn't reverb at all but the result of constant clipping resulting in the signal breaking up a small amount resulting in a reverb type of effect.

[mglimabr]

I had my surround left B&W speaker damaged because of the Tron.. The volume isnt sooo loud. But the front speakers are OK....

[madmac]

Tron is now damaging loudspeakers!!! Ok, now we have a problem !!!

[impala454]

Wow I just put the disc in for the first time. I have no subwoofer currently as I'm in an apartment. This was the first time ever I have watched a movie and the movement of the drivers in my Statements Monitors actually caught my peripheral vision. Holy cow this movie pounds those drivers!!! I turned it down for fear of damage!

[aarsoe]

Saw it last night and although the movie was visually stunning, the story is so so. However loved the soundtrack. Really gives your back channels something to do for once.

[style]

shit!!

yesterday may systm i go in cliping with tron.

this was the second wiev. at firt allok, and now clipping!


shit movie or what?

style

[Rod#S]

Hi style;

So you were able to watch the movie the first time without noticing any clipping, is that correct?

During your second viewing did you change anything with your setup ( i.e crossovers for example) or perhaps play it at a louder volume?

Are you hearing clipping with a lot of material now or is it just with TRON? I would be really concerned if you are getting clipping on material other than TRON now because that could very well indicate a blown driver.

Rod