Dialogue Issues With New Htm2d Center-

[arube1]

[IMG]/Users/arthurrubenstein/Desktop/IMG_0826.JPG/Users/arthurrubenstein/Desktop/IMG_0829.JPG/Users/arthurrubenstein/Desktop/IMG_0828.JPG

[arube1]

pics of my set-up

not the greatest pics but you get the idea..

[boarder1995]

Without a sub, the HTM2D would be fine producing the lows just like the mains, EXCEPT, you've got the center very close to a wall and on a flat shelf rather than a stand. In that case, I'd cross over the center at say 80Hz and let the mains handle the lows, since they're better placed. Then the center should not be so muddy.

If you decide on a sub, which will greatly help out on movies, there are some great offerings for a fair bit cheaper online, or go the standard route and match finishes with a B&W. Either way, you'll be set with the extra bottom end reinforcement.

By the way, that setup looks very nice and clean - love the rosenut - exactly like I've got!

[AV-OCD]

thanks for the suggestions-- i do not have a sub and asked the dealer if getting a sub would help direct the bass away from the center ? still waiting for his response- he said he had to meditate on that.... also the cabinet the speaker is sitting on is directly against the wall and the center is maybe a few inches at most from the back wall...unfortunately the cabinet is fixed to the wall and can't be moved...the dealer told me to fill the cabinets the speaker is sitting on with foam to help reduce the boom in the voices...will try the cross over at 80 or 100 -- ...the equalizer is off i believe... thanks very much all..

The problem is the proximity of the speaker to the rear wall. No amount of foam under the speaker is going to help, I'm afraid.

As boarder1995 says, use the bass managment in your prepro to redirect the bass from the center speaker to the main speakers, AND recalibrate your EQ. The problem you are experiencing is the just the type of problem the EQ is designed to address, but your have to calibrate it properly.

[emig5m]

Another question, is your listening position directly up against the rear wall? I find in my room it's worse to have your listening position directly up against the back wall then have your speakers close the front wall. My seating position is no more than 2/3 the depth of the room....

Can you also try moving the speaker out from the front wall a bit with maybe one of those little fold up tables? I'm actually shocked that a dealer came over and couldn't get something acceptable sounding in a little time.... I bet your jaw would be dropping with the proper source material if I could come over and have a whack at it. Don't underestimate how bad bare walls can be too. When I rearranged my room I wound up with a completely bare wall behind the listening position where the sound was smeared badly and way out of whack where it was perfect before. It was mandatory I had to put up a little decorative carpet on the bare rear wall or rearrange the room back to the way it was. It was much easier to just put the carpet up. :E

[arube1]

still no luck with improving the dialogue.... the dealer is slowly starting to ignore me...he claims he is still meditating on it... am going to try the above suggestion of putting the speaker on a little table and moving it up some.... thanks all...

[Relentless]

still no luck with improving the dialogue.... the dealer is slowly starting to ignore me...he claims he is still meditating on it... am going to try the above suggestion of putting the speaker on a little table and moving it up some.... thanks all...

The dealer needs to meditate his ass over to your place and take a listen, evaluate and remedy the situation. Sounds to me like he doesn't know much or doesn't really care since he has your money already. You asked him if a sub would redirect the bass from the center and he had to think about it?


Are you running the HTM2D fullrange? :E

I don't run my HTM1D fullrange. I know there are a lot of people that will disagree but a good sub will produce the bass and mid bass better and with greater ease. I crossover at 80 for movies even know all my speakers are very capable of going lower.

[arube1]

hey- thanks- he still has not answered that question about the sub....they are conferencing it or something...i told him i am willing to fork over even more money ( although i am all tapped out ) to make it right and no answer.... weird...

[arube1]

oh-sorry.... how would i know if i am running the center full range? thanks...

[Relentless]

oh-sorry.... how would i know if i am running the center full range? thanks...

Assuming you have a way to view your marantz av's set up menu(on screen display or through the processor's display) there should be a menu that asks about setting the speakers to large or small. If you select large then they will be running fullrange. If you select small then there should be a separate menu for the crossover settings. People get the large and small thing confused, it is not about physical size of the speaker but can the speaker reproduce the whole frequency range(large) vs a speaker that needs help below 80-40hz(small). For movies a sub takes up a lot of the low end work and leaves the rest of the speakers to produce the articulate stuff like voices and glass breaking easier if they don't have to work so hard pumping out the bass. I have great subs so I prefer to crossover at 80 but some will argue that 60 is better. The best crossover setting is the one that you like so try them all and in most cases you need a subwoofer to enjoy movies as intended.

[MikeFL52]

Looking at your pictures, I notice that you are using spikes into cups. Spikes are usually used to ground the speaker to something solid, however in your case you have the wood of a cabinet beneath it. Did the speakers come with rubber feet? if so you might want to try them. Or alternatively get some sorbothane pads (or something similar) to put between the cups and the cabinet. www.audioadvisor.com or www.musicdirect.com have all sorts of isolation devices that might work.

[bnieman]

Is the shelf holding the center speaker hollow? You might be picking up some boomy-ness from that. Also, I see a lot of hard parallel surfaces which can really kill your acoustics with reflections. With sound waves going every which way bouncing off of surfaces you have a better chance of matching the inherent frequency of a wall, floor, object, or structure of your house which can have very undesirable effects.

I have a Nautilus HTM1 on a B&W stand with spikes into carpet and dialog is crystal clear, absolutely love it. I run it full range with ease. Either your room acoustics are off or you got a bad speaker... it's doubtful it's a bad speaker (but not impossible!)

Carpeted rooms really help. I've got 3 B&W systems. 2 in carpeted rooms and 1 in a hard floor room and the difference is night and day. Whatever you can do to absorb sound is going to help you significantly.

That sales guy sounds like a loser. He should have come to your house after the second call! Very disappointing. I wouldn't let him get away with it.

Let us know your progress.

Cheers
Bryan

[Relentless]

Have you tried taking it off of the shelf and moving it forward yet? You can pick up a HTML stand for 250 used on A gon if you like the results.

[emig5m]

hey- thanks- he still has not answered that question about the sub....they are conferencing it or something...i told him i am willing to fork over even more money ( although i am all tapped out ) to make it right and no answer.... weird...

WOW. If I owned a dealer and someone spent that much money with me I would be over to their house making sure it was right! WAY too much money to spend and not be 100% happy! I wish I lived near you I would try to help in any way possible for free! Heck, I remember my dealer telling me that purchasers of any Diamond speakers (803D and up) get free delivery and setup!

I still say go get a cheap processor from Best Buy or somewhere similar with a painless return policy just to root out a possible defective processor and to start with all fresh factory settings. I can't imagine a Diamond level speaker sounding "muddy" and unclear.... My lowly aluminum domed HTM3S is as clear as clear can possibly be and I'm not even running anything fancy for a front end (Yamaha+Emotiva). But then again, I HAVE heard the diamond speakers sound not so good when the room/setup/position wasn't very optimized. :E

[arube1]

thanks for the replies--- okay- put the speaker on a little table in front of the cabinet and it was better- still not great- still a little boomy but better.... dealer came by and we tried to put the crossover at 120 and set the speaker back to small.... maybe a little better( back on the cabinet now- as it is just too impractical to keep it in front of the cabinet as i cant open it and it is sort of in the way... ) he suggested to put some acoustic sound material behind the speaker and will be back to try that.....

[Hammie]

thanks for the replies--- okay- put the speaker on a little table in front of the cabinet and it was better- still not great- still a little boomy but better.... dealer came by and we tried to put the crossover at 120 and set the speaker back to small.... maybe a little better( back on the cabinet now- as it is just too impractical to keep it in front of the cabinet as i cant open it and it is sort of in the way... ) he suggested to put some acoustic sound material behind the speaker and will be back to try that.....

I was going to suggest some acoustical material behind the speakers since they are so close to the wall. This will emphasize the mid and bass for sure. They make some very nice treatments so you do not have to use the fugly grey egg crate looking stuff.

I also agree a cheap AV receiver should be tried to rule out a defective Marantz processor.

Good luck!

[Relentless]

I also agree a cheap AV receiver should be tried to rule out a defective Marantz processor.

sorry if I missed this in an earlier reply but did you try running the center channel through one of the 803D's? That would rule out any electronic issue.

[AV-OCD]

I was going to suggest some acoustical material behind the speakers since they are so close to the wall. This will emphasize the mid and bass for sure. They make some very nice treatments so you do not have to use the fugly grey egg crate looking stuff.

I also agree a cheap AV receiver should be tried to rule out a defective Marantz processor.

Good luck!

Unfortunately, bass traps, which is what would be needed to tame a muddy / chesty sound, are a minimum of 16" deep and can go up to several feet deep, depending how deep you need to correct. On wall panels only cut down on refections from the midrange on up. Anything less than 4" deep and you're only absorbing treble.

In this case, I believe the only answer is to move the speaker or use EQ.

[arube1]

Unfortunately, bass traps, which is what would be needed to tame a muddy / chesty sound, are a minimum of 16" deep and can go up to several feet deep, depending how deep you need to correct. On wall panels only cut down on refections from the midrange on up. Anything less than 4" deep and you're only absorbing treble.

In this case, I believe the only answer is to move the speaker or use EQ.

thanks - how do i use the eq? you mean through the auto mike set up? or manually? if manually i am not sure how to even get to the eq...and i am not sure what is meant by running the center channel through the 803d? thanks..

[arube1]

Unfortunately, bass traps, which is what would be needed to tame a muddy / chesty sound, are a minimum of 16" deep and can go up to several feet deep, depending how deep you need to correct. On wall panels only cut down on refections from the midrange on up. Anything less than 4" deep and you're only absorbing treble.

In this case, I believe the only answer is to move the speaker or use EQ.

and by the way that is exactly what it sounds like------> "muddy and chesty"

thanks again...

[David G]

My thoughts are that its reverberation from the wall behind the speaker, underneath the TV.
As an experiment, can you try experimenting with cushions under the TV?

[arube1]

My thoughts are that its reverberation from the wall behind the speaker, underneath the TV.
As an experiment, can you try experimenting with cushions under the TV?

do you mean under the speaker or behind it? thanks....

[Frank Helmling]

Why don't you place the 803's away from the wall more into the rooom angle them and then start to compare the phantom centre sound in Stereo vs the sound of your centerspeaker?

Then start to compare where the problem is between the speakers and EQ this issue.

Angle the center slightly upwards and ask somebody to hear it at your home?

[duketbrd88]

Relentless means taking your speaker wire from your center channel speaker and hooking it up to one of your 803's and use that as a temporary center to see if it sounds ok or the same. Remember to disconnect your current speaker wire from the 803 first. Just swap the right or left front speaker wire with the center to see how the vocals sound. If you take your center speaker wire and hook it up to the left or right front it will now be acting as a center just to test out the sound quality. It doesn't matter which front speaker, this just a test.

[Relentless]

Relentless means taking your speaker wire from your center channel speaker and hooking it up to one of your 803's and use that as a temporary center to see if it sounds ok or the same. Remember to disconnect your current speaker wire from the 803 first. Just swap the right or left front speaker wire with the center to see how the vocals sound. If you take your center speaker wire and hook it up to the left or right front it will now be acting as a center just to test out the sound quality. It doesn't matter which front speaker, this just a test.

Exactly what I meant, sorry for not being clearer. I am interested it this thread because I owned a HTM2D and the only time I remember it sounding slightly muddy was when I had it under my display. That was not the speakers fault it was because it was enclosed in the TV stand and creating an echo.

[AV-OCD]

thanks - how do i use the eq? you mean through the auto mike set up? or manually? if manually i am not sure how to even get to the eq...and i am not sure what is meant by running the center channel through the 803d? thanks..

I meant using the auto mic set-up. I believe that you did this already, but you may want to redo the set-up. Audyssey Room EQ is pretty good about taming the bass.

Feel free to give me a call. I'll do my best to walk you through some trouble shooting steps.

I feel like you are getting overloaded with suggestions right now, when you need to take it one step at a time and methodically rule things out.

PM sent with my phone number.

[Opus007]

I would take the speaker back to the dealer and have him set it up in a demo room.That is if he has one.If it sounds great there and it is a treated room then you have room acoustic problems at your home or it is your av receiver/pre/pro.If it still sounds like crap I would think you may have a deffective speaker.
Just my 1 cents worth due to the economy.

[David G]

do you mean under the speaker or behind it? thanks....

I mean behind the speaker.

[ray5]

Can being off axis from the center channel make such a large difference? I have the same problem but it seems to get better if I sit directly opposite the ctr. channel. I have a 24 by 21 ft room.Thanks.
Ray

[AV-OCD]

Can being off axis from the center channel make such a large difference? I have the same problem but it seems to get better if I sit directly opposite the ctr. channel. I have a 24 by 21 ft room.Thanks.
Ray

It can depending on the center speaker model and its off-axis performance. Which model center channel do you have?

[ray5]

It can depending on the center speaker model and its off-axis performance. Which model center channel do you have?

HTM 2D

[AV-OCD]

HTM 2D

Since that model has a dedicated midrange driver, it should have good off-axis performance. What you are likely hearing is the speaker/room interaction as you move off center.

You migh try moving the listening seat and/or the speaker position forward or back a couple of feet to see if that improves things.

Something like Audyssey EQ could help minimize the differences between on and off axis sound quality as well.

[beden1]

I'll jump in and ask a stupid question: is the volume of your TV turned up, because if it is, it will cause your center channel to sound really lousy? It happened to me last week until I realized my son had been watching before and also had the TV volume cranked up while listening through the processor..

[ray5]

I'll jump in and ask a stupid question: is the volume of your TV turned up, because if it is, it will cause your center channel to sound really lousy? It happened to me last week until I realized my son had been watching before and also had the TV volume cranked up while listening through the processor..

The TV is turned all the way down. I am having the same issues as the the OP of this thread but does improve as I get directly in line with the center. I'll try moving the distance away from the wall. It is currently about 1.5 feet from the rear wall.
Ray

[emig5m]

The TV is turned all the way down. I am having the same issues as the the OP of this thread but does improve as I get directly in line with the center. I'll try moving the distance away from the wall. It is currently about 1.5 feet from the rear wall.
Ray

Move your crossover frequency up maybe?

[leej]

I recently moved my stand out about a foot to make some changes to connections. I was amazed at the iprovment in the center chanel. The dialogue is so much better. Kinda' like a free upgrade.

[arube1]

well at least i am not alone in having dialogue issues with the center speaker- the thing is i was told ( of course before i bought it ) that it didn't matter where the center speaker was placed --( and believe me i made it very clear prior to the purchase that the dialogue to me was more important than anything else as i am a big movie watcher) that the center was so good that it was going to be crystal clear whether the speaker was on the floor--under my cabinet--or on the cabinet--whether it was going to be close to the back wall or not-- of course -- i learned the hard way that placement and room acoustics is very important- ( although i cannot say that the dialogue is crystal clear even with the speaker placed many feet in front of the cabinet- better - but not great-- ) i thought spending 3k+ for a center speaker would provide me with no issues...now i hear from my dealer-----> "well what do you expect? you have high ceilings...it is sitting on a hollow cabinet....you have wood floors.... the speaker is only a foot from the rear wall" ... etc.... now i am told i have to hire an acoustician to help improve the sound... crazy man.... just crazy...

[mjb]

I am also using a HTM 2D. Its a very good speaker, but for some reason its not as sensitive as my L/R pair. I lifted the level by 3db and it now blends right in. Dialog is clear, and if someone moves across the sound floor, the level stays relative constant. I have no buyer remorse with mine, it just needs a bit more juice.

[arube1]

I have my db up+4 and still muddy louder but still not crisp or clear

[emig5m]

well at least i am not alone in having dialogue issues with the center speaker- the thing is i was told ( of course before i bought it ) that it didn't matter where the center speaker was placed --( and believe me i made it very clear prior to the purchase that the dialogue to me was more important than anything else as i am a big movie watcher) that the center was so good that it was going to be crystal clear whether the speaker was on the floor--under my cabinet--or on the cabinet--whether it was going to be close to the back wall or not-- of course -- i learned the hard way that placement and room acoustics is very important- ( although i cannot say that the dialogue is crystal clear even with the speaker placed many feet in front of the cabinet- better - but not great-- ) i thought spending 3k+ for a center speaker would provide me with no issues...now i hear from my dealer-----> "well what do you expect? you have high ceilings...it is sitting on a hollow cabinet....you have wood floors.... the speaker is only a foot from the rear wall" ... etc.... now i am told i have to hire an acoustician to help improve the sound... crazy man.... just crazy...

The ugly truth.... you can't just buy the best equipment and automatically have the best sound/performance. Room acoustics and setup is equally important as the gear you buy (if not more important). Sometimes I feel it's just so much easier to buy a good set of headphones and call it a day...lol. Perfect detail, perfect clarity, and no room/setup headaches...lol. And all for a fraction of the price!

[arube1]

not a bad idea about the headphones.... :-) although i need a really long cord since all the equipment is in the basement...

[AV-OCD]

well at least i am not alone in having dialogue issues with the center speaker- the thing is i was told ( of course before i bought it ) that it didn't matter where the center speaker was placed --( and believe me i made it very clear prior to the purchase that the dialogue to me was more important than anything else as i am a big movie watcher) that the center was so good that it was going to be crystal clear whether the speaker was on the floor--under my cabinet--or on the cabinet--whether it was going to be close to the back wall or not-- of course -- i learned the hard way that placement and room acoustics is very important- ( although i cannot say that the dialogue is crystal clear even with the speaker placed many feet in front of the cabinet- better - but not great-- ) i thought spending 3k+ for a center speaker would provide me with no issues...now i hear from my dealer-----> "well what do you expect? you have high ceilings...it is sitting on a hollow cabinet....you have wood floors.... the speaker is only a foot from the rear wall" ... etc.... now i am told i have to hire an acoustician to help improve the sound... crazy man.... just crazy...

I just have to say that I think there may be something at play here that is affecting the performance of the center. It is a very well engineered center speaker, and with the dedicated midrange driver it *should* be everything your dealer claimed it to be. You may want to bring the center to your dealer's show room and hook it up there to see if the problem goes away. If it does, then there is something amiss with the set-up in your system / room. If the problem remains, then there may be an issue with the center speaker.

Did you try running the speaker wire from the center channel of your amp to one of the L/R speakers to see if the problem follows the connection?

[Joawen]

Did you try running the speaker wire from the center channel of your amp to one of the L/R speakers to see if the problem follows the connection?

I second this advice...

[omar7631]

I also was having a bit of trouble with my center channel at first. I have the HTM3s and I did the auto setup in the denon and the problem went away. Another thing I noticed is just some movies are recorded better than others. Some movies I have to run the center channel a couple of db higher than the l/r .