Brand new 684s, poor sound

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  • kiko
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 14

    Brand new 684s, poor sound

    Hello everyone,
    I am new to B&Ws and new to this forum, so pardon me if my questions sound too newbie. I have noticed other people have had a similar problem (like this guy here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...highlight=684), but I'd like to hear your thoughts on my situation.

    I have just installed my new pair of 684s for which I paid a LOT of money. I live in Brazil, where import taxes are ridiculous (at least 100%) and freight expenses help skyrocket the price of a good pair of speakers. Turns out I am very disappointed after I plugged in my new 684s to my Yamaha receiver (a RX-V863). They don't sound one bit like the 685s (yes, the smaller model, no typos here) I sampled at a local store. They lack midrange tones, depth and only start to show their value at higher volumes. My old pair of speakers was a 15-year old Boston Acoustics CR9, and they sucked compared to the 685s I tried at the store. As they are now, my new 684s are not better than the CR9s or only a bit better.

    Before anyone asks, I have to say I decided to purchase the 684s without listening to them because I really wanted floorstanding speakers and the other B&W floorstanding option I could sample was a CM series that was way too expensive here. I figured it could only be better than the 685s or equal, which would be fine, and I went for it, fearless.

    Fact is that my speakers don't sound as brilliant and lively and exciting as the 685s I tried. I had researched extensively for months before purchasing (looked into Paradigms, Polks, Boses, etc.) and settled happily for the B&Ws.

    I called the store owner, who told me that it takes 120 hours for the speakers to soften, so that the moving parts settle into their best behavior. Is that right? Does it take that long? The manual says that there will be "subtle" difference after 15 hours of use. Or could it be that my Yamaha receiver (105 watts per channel) is not good enough? At the store they were playing a Nad receiver and a Nad CD player. I have a Yamaha DVD player serving as a CD player (my 5disc Yamaha changer is broken) and a Stanton Turntable. I know that some audiophiles may sneer at Yamahas but this is no entry-level receiver, and I got it for a very good price in New York (no Brazilian taxes added).

    Other info that may be useful: my living room is about 20 square meters big, there are no fabric curtains and speakers are about three meters apart, as recommended. There is the usual sofa and pillows in front of the stereo system and a big turkish rug on the floor. It is hot at this time of the year here, and I don't know if this can affect the warmup process the speakers are supposedly undergoing.

    Any help is greatly appreciated.
  • Space
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 118

    #2
    Just to start with the most obvious, have you double checked that your wiring has correct polarity and there are no accidental shorts, like a stray strand of copper at a terminal?

    You could also listen to one side at a time and see if it sounds balanced (highs to lows) and if the two speakers sound the same. Set your disc player to mono for this.

    Comment

    • dan87951
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 379

      #3
      That is correct it take about 10-15 hours to get the speakers to loosen up. I never was a fan of the 684's if you can take them back and pay the minor up charge on the 683's you should do it. I think the 683 is leaps and bounds ahead of the 684.
      dan87951
      audio guru

      Comment

      • kiko
        Junior Member
        • Dec 2009
        • 14

        #4
        I will check for loose copper threads, thanks for the tip. But regarding the wiring, it is correct. I checked it before.

        About the exchange: I tested the smaller model, the 685. I would definitely have bought the 683, but here it costs a whole lot more, something like 2 grand more!

        Thank you for the tips!

        Comment

        • hifiguymi
          Super Senior Member
          • Mar 2007
          • 1532

          #5
          Give them time to break in. It doesn't take 120 hours but it does take time. Give them about 20 hours or so and try to let them run without listening to them. That way you can make a decision without the "getting used to them" syndrome.

          Eric

          Comment

          • emig5m
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2008
            • 646

            #6
            I've owned the 685, 684, and 683. To me the 684 is more or less the same as the 685 but with more low end punch. If you liked the sound of the 685, then you should like the 684 even more without a sub IMO. Sounds like a possible setup problem. (I also use Yamaha with B&W)

            Comment

            • stuofsci02
              Super Senior Member
              • Nov 2009
              • 1241

              #7
              Agreed... There must be a setup problem. From what you describe I doubt break in is the problem.. Typically during break in the speaker will lack some bass since the drivers are tight and the speaker may be a tad harsh.. Most of that should disappear rather quickly though, with only a little change after 15 hours.

              I don't think your reciever will be the problem either, however have you checked all your reciever settings? Also, how do you connect your DVD player to your reciever? If it is by Analog then this may contribute to poor sound as DVD players in my experience to not play CDs well, and have cheap analog output stages, unless it is truly high end.

              Again, I would double check the polarity of the wiring, make sure the jumpers on the back of the speakers are connected and check your DVD player and reciever settings. If your reciever is trying to resolve a stereo track into 5.1 and you do not have a center, you will be missing much of the tracks..
              Main System:
              B&W 801D
              Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
              Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
              Oppo BDP-105
              Squeezebox Touch


              Second System:
              B&W CM7
              Emotiva UMC-1
              Emotiva UPA-2
              Oppo BDP-83SE
              Grant Fidelity DAC-09

              Comment

              • Briz vegas
                Super Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 1199

                #8
                Some good advice above.

                2 thoughts come to mind

                1. I agree with the speaker run in comments. My B&Ws (804, 705) took a good week of use to run in (I did not play then 24/7). Try and avoid being too critical before this happens.

                2. your room and the power coming to your system are two common factors that have not changed, although I would look to the room first. A photo of your setup would help, even if you just use a phone to take the pictures. Your description was helpful but a photo or two could reveal some potential setup issues.

                If all else fails and you are still unhappy in a week you could take them back to the shop and compare them to the 685 in the setup that you enjoyed so much. That would be the ultimate test as it would remove every variable other than the speakers themselves. Hopefully you will not have to go that far, but a direct comparison would give peace of mind about your purchase,
                Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                Comment

                • kiko
                  Junior Member
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 14

                  #9
                  [QUOTE=Briz vegas]
                  Try and avoid being too critical before this happens.

                  That's very sound advice and I am trying really hard here, but what I can say for now is that I have re-checked the wirings, looked for stray copper threads, checked the jumpers, checked the receiver settings (I tried it in 2-channel setting and direct circuitry setting), played three different sources of music (DVD playing CDs, turntable and iPod), found nothing wrong and it still sounds dull. No deep bass, no treble, all dull midrange. Break in clocked in nearly ten hours. What is making me depressed is that unless this vinegar turns into Chateau Cheval Blanc, I am going to continue feeling ripped off. OK, I am exaggerating a bit. But what I mean is how big a change can I expect from the break in process?
                  And for those who may suspect I have hearing problems (I even thought about this), I asked my wife for her opinion and she said the speakers sound "muffled".
                  Could it be that the Yamaha receiver is to blame? It is a home theater receiver, not a straight stereo, but could there be such a difference? When I listen to it using headphones it sound superb.

                  Comment

                  • Ken49r
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 312

                    #10
                    Hi kiko,
                    I'm assuming your dealer does not have the 684 in his showroom? I would take yours down there and swap them out between the 685's on the NAD equipment you mentioned that you liked. My guess is your electronics, cabling, may be the factor.
                    What NAD products,cabling is your dealer useing?

                    Comment

                    • emig5m
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2008
                      • 646

                      #11
                      Originally posted by kiko
                      But what I mean is how big a change can I expect from the break in process?
                      Not much IMO. All my brand new out of the box B&W's sounded great from the get-go although my brand new out of the box 683's did sound a little sloppy at first compared to the demo units I had. But definitely not muffled sounding. Then again, I hammer em' in with Metallica to break them in quick, lol. Is the RX-V863 the same generation as the 663? If so, it's probably not the receiver. Here's my RX-663 on a set of 804S's... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRaHK8O_tQ4 quite far from muffled sounding, heh. (don't mind my crappy camera mic breaking up from time to time). I also had the higher end RX-3900 and it was more or less just a ton of features over the 663 but the same baseline sound. Yours should be the same? I would think so... Albeit, I am bypassing the Yamaha's built in amps and using a separate power amp, but when I added the amp the sound really didn't change. A bit more bass (you can feel more weight to it), cleaner and more pure sounding at high volume, and no more kicking the Yamaha into protection mode. But the baseline sound stayed the same.

                      Maybe I'll take the 685's down and put them up front and take a video for comparison but I've already done that (without taking a video) and they sound very good as well. The 684 is the 685 with an extra bass driver that kicks in at lower frequencies to augment the other mid/bass driver on the far bottom so it should in fact out perform the 685 overall. Are you sure you're not using analog connections? If so...that's probably your problem right there with low end gear = poor analog inputs from my experience. When you say "No deep bass, no treble, all dull midrange." That sounds exactly like my experience with these cheap receivers and using analog connections.

                      The 684's where in fact the first B&W's I brought home for an in-home demo. I never even bothered to try them at the store (I admit, I had low expectations coming from speakers with 15" woofers and the 684 having rinky-dink drivers in comparison but was just bored and wanted to try something new for fun - boy was that a financial mistake $10,000 later...lol). I had no intentions of buying them (even told the salesman that I just wanted to "try" them). He agreed and asked for a security deposit that would be refunded when I brought the speakers back and said I had seven days with them. They sold themselves first song I played. You shouldn't be having this experience. Have you tried running YPAO just to see what it tries to adjust and by how much? YPAO could give you some insight if something is out of phase, a null in the frequency response, or something....

                      The general consensus with Yamaha that a lot of people will agree on that has experience with them is that they're a little brighter up top than neutral (which I actually prefer) so you definitely shouldn't be experiencing muffled sound with the Yamaha but in fact the opposite (unless of course you're using the analog inputs like I said above).

                      Comment

                      • stuofsci02
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Nov 2009
                        • 1241

                        #12
                        This is indeed odd.. I have 683s and have auditioned them directely against the 684s. The 684s were a fine speaker and did not demonstate any of what yours are doing. In fact they reminded me of my old B&W 603 S3

                        I think at this point you are going to have to go back to the store with your speakers and try. If they work great there, then you will need to swap out component by component at home to find the fault..

                        Let us know what you find... I hate to know that one of our B&W comrades is not enjoying every moment with their speakers...
                        Main System:
                        B&W 801D
                        Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                        Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                        Oppo BDP-105
                        Squeezebox Touch


                        Second System:
                        B&W CM7
                        Emotiva UMC-1
                        Emotiva UPA-2
                        Oppo BDP-83SE
                        Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                        Comment

                        • Antus
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2008
                          • 141

                          #13
                          while i was listening to the entire line of 600 series, i found 685 is the best one in terms of price and performance. In my opinion, the tower 600 series are a bit disappointing in a way.
                          However, with that said, it shouldn't perform as poorly as u experienced. the speaker need to play around midium volumn to sound it best. at high volumn, u will hear the cabnet vibration. and at lower volumn, it just sound dull, without some excitment.

                          u can try to move the speaker's position a little here and there to get the best sound. i found b&w speakers are quite sensitive to positioning. a little off, and it can be big difference.

                          Comment

                          • kiko
                            Junior Member
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 14

                            #14
                            Starting from bottom to top, yes, I found these speakers to be very sensitive to positioning, and that includes your own position. The farther I go back in the living room, the least bad the speakers sound.
                            I'm afraid I will really have to take those 16-kilo speakers (each!) and go back to the store. They have CM7s and 685s on display there. I don't remember the exact NAD model they had or the cabling, but I forgot to say I have monster cable thick as a whip wiring the speakers. What I do think might really be a problem is the DVD serving as a CD player, but then everything else (turntable included) sounds bad.
                            Could it be that the NAD system was highly tweaked, equalized, etc and I had a biased experience? What tricks do salespeople normally employ?

                            Comment

                            • Orb
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2008
                              • 147

                              #15
                              Unfortunately Kiko I think you will find that the Nad maybe the sound quality difference your picking up on when compared to your receiver.

                              Not all receivers are great at driving tricky speakers (and B&W are usually more tricky to drive than say Dali; this is to do with phase and impedance and varies speaker to speaker due to design and components).

                              Nad have a good customer base (very popular) and are still very good IMO when it comes to the receiver/amp being pushed closed to its limits.

                              It could be a pain to do, but your best bet is to take along your receiver because even if you do decide to replace only the speaker you need to find one that works well with that Yamaha model.
                              Alternatively if the Yamaha is the problem after testing at the dealer then it may be worth considering replacing that as well, but then thats more costs....

                              1st step though is seeing whether it is that Yamaha model of receiver combined with the speakers.
                              To be honest though, I would expect there to be some audio differences between that model of Yamaha and say the Nad, and maybe you just prefer the Nad/speaker combination.

                              One trick though but this could be down to a misunderstanding; was the Nad receiver hifi or home theatre based model?
                              This is important as IMO hifi receivers will usually outperform similar priced home theatre ones, and would probably give the Nad an advantage over your Yamaha if it was hifi version (2-channel only).

                              Cheers
                              Orb

                              Comment

                              • kiko
                                Junior Member
                                • Dec 2009
                                • 14

                                #16
                                Forgot to post the picture of the setting. Here it is.
                                That is a 29-inch Sony TV in the middle (haven't switched to flat screens to this day because of the motion blur). That way you can get an idea of how wide apart the speakers are, about three meters.

                                But wait! How do I post a picture here? Whenever I click on the "insert image" icon, what comes up is a dialog box with the text "Enter the text to be formatted
                                [IMG]xxx[/IMG]"

                                Comment

                                • stuofsci02
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2009
                                  • 1241

                                  #17
                                  BTW... Is the CD you are listening to, the same as at the store?

                                  CDs can vare greatly in recording and sound quality.. Every piece of high end equipment I get excludes more and more CDs from my repetoire as they just don't make the cut..
                                  Main System:
                                  B&W 801D
                                  Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                  Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                  Oppo BDP-105
                                  Squeezebox Touch


                                  Second System:
                                  B&W CM7
                                  Emotiva UMC-1
                                  Emotiva UPA-2
                                  Oppo BDP-83SE
                                  Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                  Comment

                                  • emig5m
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2008
                                    • 646

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by kiko
                                    Forgot to post the picture of the setting. Here it is.
                                    That is a 29-inch Sony TV in the middle (haven't switched to flat screens to this day because of the motion blur). That way you can get an idea of how wide apart the speakers are, about three meters.

                                    But wait! How do I post a picture here? Whenever I click on the "insert image" icon, what comes up is a dialog box with the text "Enter the text to be formatted
                                    [IMG]xxx[/IMG]"
                                    Make an account on http://photobucket.com/ and upload your pictures there. It will make a link with the [IMG]xxx[/IMG] tag already in the url that you just copy and paste in your message.

                                    Originally posted by stuofsci02
                                    BTW... Is the CD you are listening to, the same as at the store?

                                    CDs can vare greatly in recording and sound quality.. Every piece of high end equipment I get excludes more and more CDs from my repetoire as they just don't make the cut..
                                    I noticed that too. As my system get's better, the difference in recordings varies out even wider where as say in my Ford f150 on the stock system everything sound exactly the same. And then I'm amazed at how good some 20+ year old recordings sound compared to brand new ones. You figure with todays tech, every single recording would sound amazing but it's the opposite way around it seems. It's like they're going backwards. Heck, even non audiophile music like Metallica you can hear the difference from say, And Justice For All released in 1988 to their latest crap which is all distorted and clipped badly (probably the best example out there of the loudness wars).

                                    Too bad there wasn't strict studio standards....like for one, all monitor systems being calibrated correctly. And gawd, turn down the volume and compression!! Maybe for the radio mix...but not for a hard personal retail copy!! What the hell are they thinking?

                                    Comment

                                    • kiko
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Dec 2009
                                      • 14

                                      #19
                                      I suppose the poor sound quality of some of today's recordings is due to the fact that a lot of music these days is recorded in small studios or home studios, using consumer recording equipment. The days of the grand recording studios with great mixing boards are long gone. And since the early 90's a lot of the masterings are done with heavy compression and high volumes, to please the ears of the headphone generation. A recording such as "Long, Long, Long" (The Beatles White Album), that is barely audible at times would never be done that way today...

                                      As for the media I've tried, I've tried everything. As I said, from iPod stuff (320k) to some of my audiophile LPs, those that are pressed by clerics in Germany under specific barometric conditions, and it all sounds dull so far. I did make a point of playing some tracks that I heard at the store, like Dave Brubeck's Take 5. Even though it's a 50-year old recording, you can still make the comparison. But no joy yet... I'll post the picture soon. Thanks everyone for the support.

                                      Comment

                                      • stuofsci02
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2009
                                        • 1241

                                        #20
                                        ^^^^

                                        Yep... I think its more that recording studio are mixing stuff for the MP3 generation, so just slide all of the volume levels to max so you can hear the guitar on a 3 meg file... It is a bunch of BS if you ask me.. Why should my audiophile system sound poor so that someone with a home theater in a box can hear all the instruments.
                                        Main System:
                                        B&W 801D
                                        Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                        Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                        Oppo BDP-105
                                        Squeezebox Touch


                                        Second System:
                                        B&W CM7
                                        Emotiva UMC-1
                                        Emotiva UPA-2
                                        Oppo BDP-83SE
                                        Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                        Comment

                                        • BassThatHz
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jul 2006
                                          • 153

                                          #21
                                          Purchasing a measuring meter/microphone and graphing the results can really help reveal what's "actually" going on in a system.

                                          You can see what I'm talking about here, from the ones I've made on my system:
                                          Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                                          Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                                          Any dullness etc will be reflected as major dips and peaks in the graphs.
                                          All systems have them to some degree, so don't kill yourself over it; but the idea is to minimize them (within your budget, that is).

                                          B&W speakers are very sensitive, and by that I don't mean in db's per watt (efficiency), I mean that they reveal what is going on upstream... handedly so.

                                          If an eq or trims aren't off or if a circuit is defective etc, you'll probably hear it.
                                          In emig5m's words "if it's sodomizing the signal" :rofl:
                                          Last edited by BassThatHz; 01 January 2010, 16:50 Friday.

                                          Comment

                                          • Briz vegas
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Mar 2005
                                            • 1199

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by kiko
                                            I suppose the poor sound quality of some of today's recordings is due to the fact that a lot of music these days is recorded in small studios or home studios, using consumer recording equipment. The days of the grand recording studios with great mixing boards are long gone.
                                            Hmmm - you might think so but this does not need to be true.

                                            In a garage in 1986 one Calrec Ambiosonic microphone was hooked up to a "consumer grade" 2 track Sony F1 Betamax digital recorder (16 bit) by someone who cared about sound quality. This recording was the result- check out the samples on this page.



                                            (edit - this is a better url than the first one I posted before this edit - the brushes sound much better on this one)

                                            (low quality download via your computer speakers but I think you get my point despite the strangled format )
                                            Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                                            Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                                            Comment

                                            • stuofsci02
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2009
                                              • 1241

                                              #23
                                              Where do we stand on this.. I need some closure...
                                              Main System:
                                              B&W 801D
                                              Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                              Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                              Oppo BDP-105
                                              Squeezebox Touch


                                              Second System:
                                              B&W CM7
                                              Emotiva UMC-1
                                              Emotiva UPA-2
                                              Oppo BDP-83SE
                                              Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                              Comment

                                              • BWLover
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jan 2009
                                                • 552

                                                #24
                                                i'm no expert. but maybe you have your speakers set to "small" instead of "large" in your settings.
                                                Bowers & Wilkins 683 Speakers
                                                Rotel RB-1090 2 Channel Amp
                                                Rotel RC-1082 Stereo Pre Amp
                                                Rotel RCD-1072 CD Player
                                                Pro-Ject Debut Carbon w/ Ortofon 2M Red (sitting on a piece of slate supported by 3 "solid tech feet of silence" isolation feet)
                                                Rotel RLC-1040 Power Conditioner
                                                Shynyata Research SR-Z1 Power Outlet & Venom 3 Power Cords x 4
                                                Tara Labs RSC Vector 1 Speaker Cables & Interconnects
                                                Pioneer PDP-5070HD 50" Plasma
                                                Playstation 3
                                                Shaw HD PVR
                                                Primacoustic Room Treatments

                                                Comment

                                                • ak77
                                                  Member
                                                  • Jun 2008
                                                  • 30

                                                  #25
                                                  Hi Kiko

                                                  What interconnects are you using between your DVD player and receiver?

                                                  I have two systems, one of which is 685 based. In this set-up I am using Denon 3910 DVD player connected to Rotel RA-05 amplifier via Merlin Choppin analog interconnects. I use stream direct option on DVD player to get the best out of it. I think Denon 3910 is one of the few DVD players with excellent DAC's and I am quite happy with the results to be honest.

                                                  I reckon good interconnects do make a considerable difference in the sound of the set-up. I have recently upgraded my interconnects in the other set-up comprising of 803S speakers. I initially had Cyrus balanced interconnects but have recently upgraded to Chord Anthem 2...and boy it sings!!

                                                  So try the following:
                                                  1. Use the stream direct option on your DVD player if available
                                                  2. Try and get some good analogue interconnects if your DVD player has good/decent D/A converters.

                                                  Whether the speakers are run in or not, they should not sound dull anyway. Running them in probably only loosens up the low end drivers but not the high end ones. So I guess, you are not going to experience any difference in sound after running period is over. You would gain more by trying a different cable or other options on the receiver and DVD player to make the signal as pure and short as possible.

                                                  Cheers
                                                  Andy
                                                  System 1: B&W: 803S; Classe CAP-2100, CDP-102, Chord: Anthem 2 interconnect, Epic super twin cables

                                                  System 2: B&W: 685, Rotel: RA-05; Denon 3910; Denon DAB 1800 tuner; Merlin Choppin & Atlas Equator MKII interconnects.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • dknightd
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Mar 2006
                                                    • 621

                                                    #26
                                                    If you have not done it yet, take your speakers to the dealer, compare them with the dealer's 685 using the same equipment. Then you will have something to go on. It could the be speakers, or the room, or the equipment - but until you compare your speakers with the ones you loved you have nothing to go on.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Ken49r
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2007
                                                      • 312

                                                      #27
                                                      My dealer has a 14 day return policy. You may want to check your paperwork and see what time frame you have to act upon the suggestions in this thread.

                                                      Ken

                                                      Comment

                                                      • kiko
                                                        Junior Member
                                                        • Dec 2009
                                                        • 14

                                                        #28
                                                        Hi everyone,
                                                        I have small improvements to report. Yesterday I had decent listening results using my iPod (surprisingly enough) as a source, with a monster cable connector leading the iPod to the receiver. I played Satie's gymnopedies and Buena Vista Social Club and they both sounded decent. Still far from what I expected from the B&W speakers.
                                                        I will continue with the break in process, even though I am at work for most of the day, and can't leave the speakers blasting as my 10-month old son is home for most of the day. But he is listening to some music almost every day.

                                                        AK77 is asking what connectors I am using between DVD player and receiver. I have tried two options: optical cable (I have three different models) and regular RCA (not gold plated) cables. As for the RCA cables, I know they are not the best thing there is, but as I said before, whenever I listen to music using my headphones instead of the speakers, the sound is superb, which to me means that the connection is good enough. Regarding the optical cables, there is a mystery inside a riddle inside an enigma which I need to solve. As I said, I have three different models of optical cables. One of them I own since the days of my portable MD, before CD burning was a reality, and one is brand new. They simply don't work with either this receiver or the old one, this DVD player or the old CD changer that is awaiting repairs. OK, there could be something wrong with one of the cables or with at either one of the four sources involved. But all three cables and all four pieces of electronic can't be defective when it comes to optical connections. When I say they don't work what I mean is sound is intermittent, it gets cut every few seconds, and listening becomes impossible. Analog connection is the only option for me. I am not a pro when it comes to installation but as my profession demands use of high technology all the time and I've been doing it for 20 years, I would say I am not exactly naive when it comes to operating equipment. There must be something wrong, but I'm clueless to what it can be. All I know is that one of these three cables (the older one) has different ends. One is more like a pin, the other end has a square fitting. I know I should post pictures of them (and I still owe a picture of my setup here), but I haven't opened that account someone suggested here. A full-time job and a 10-month old son take nearly all my time.

                                                        And BWLover has asked me something really interesting, whether I should set my receiver to small speakers rather than large. I have gone through the manual and haven't found this. Do you know if this setting is available in my Yamaha receiver, the RX-V863?

                                                        And as to the idea of taking the speakers back to the dealer for a test, I will do that, but as the dealer said (and I know this has been countered here) that the break in should last 120 hours, I'd rather wait until I clock that, so he does not have any excuses. I prefer to have my side covered before I get into some sort of negotiation with him.

                                                        Thanks everyone for the help!

                                                        Comment

                                                        • stuofsci02
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2009
                                                          • 1241

                                                          #29
                                                          Hmm... If it sounds better from the analog of an Ipod, I think you have a source problem for sure..
                                                          Main System:
                                                          B&W 801D
                                                          Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                          Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                          Oppo BDP-105
                                                          Squeezebox Touch


                                                          Second System:
                                                          B&W CM7
                                                          Emotiva UMC-1
                                                          Emotiva UPA-2
                                                          Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                          Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                          Comment

                                                          • sleddogg
                                                            Junior Member
                                                            • Mar 2008
                                                            • 29

                                                            #30
                                                            Can we all safely assume that you have the brass connectors installed between the two sets of connectors on the back of the speaker? (hf and lf)
                                                            B&W 683/685/HTM61/ASW610
                                                            Rotel RSP985/Rotel RMB1095/Rotel RCD1072

                                                            Comment

                                                            • kiko
                                                              Junior Member
                                                              • Dec 2009
                                                              • 14

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by sleddogg
                                                              Can we all safely assume that you have the brass connectors installed between the two sets of connectors on the back of the speaker? (hf and lf)
                                                              Sleddogg's question made me scratch my head. I did some research and found this:

                                                              Home Theater Systems and Audio Components | Audio Visual Equipment Product Reviews, Technical AV Guides, Home Theater Equipment and Product Reviews


                                                              PLease scroll down to the bit where it reads "The speakers come with a set of bus wires ..."

                                                              Does everyone install these bus wires? My speakers did not come with these wires. Should I try this setup? And what does he mean by brass connectors? The jumpers?

                                                              Thanks again

                                                              Comment

                                                              • stuofsci02
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2009
                                                                • 1241

                                                                #32
                                                                Kiko,

                                                                The higher end B&W speakers (700 and 800 series) come with jumper wires with banana plugs and spades. On the 600 series there are two gold jumpers between the high and low inputs instead of the wires.

                                                                You did already indicate that these jumpers were installed on your speakers..
                                                                Main System:
                                                                B&W 801D
                                                                Emotiva USP-1 Pre-Amp
                                                                Chord SPM-650 Stereo Amp
                                                                Oppo BDP-105
                                                                Squeezebox Touch


                                                                Second System:
                                                                B&W CM7
                                                                Emotiva UMC-1
                                                                Emotiva UPA-2
                                                                Oppo BDP-83SE
                                                                Grant Fidelity DAC-09

                                                                Comment

                                                                • kiko
                                                                  Junior Member
                                                                  • Dec 2009
                                                                  • 14

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by stuofsci02

                                                                  You did already indicate that these jumpers were installed on your speakers..
                                                                  That's right. I asked because there were some terms in english I wasn't familiar with before I entered this hi-fi world. I just wanted to make sure jumpers and the brass plates were the same thing.

                                                                  The quest goes on!

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • timjclark
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Apr 2009
                                                                    • 104

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Kiko,
                                                                    How many hours would you estimate that you have on the speakers at this point? Although I do subscribe to the break-in period concept, I find it hard to believe that the speakers would sound so poor right out of the box. I think that fresh 684's should still sound better then the broken-in 685's on the same electronics. I am suspect of something in your system.

                                                                    I know that lugging those speakers back to the dealer is going to be a pain, but here is another thought to run past your dealer. Perhaps he would have a receiver and cd-player and wires (interconnect and speaker) that he could lend you for a weekend. You could then listen to the 685's with this equipment as well. The incentive for your dealer is that this could help you narrow down the problem and may result in additional purchases.

                                                                    Maybe that is a tall order, I dunno. It would be nice to start swapping out pieces of your system one at a time to determine the source of the poor performance - assuming that it is not the speakers.
                                                                    -B&W: 803S, HTM4S, M-1
                                                                    -Proceed: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP-2, AMP-3
                                                                    -Rotel: RSP-1069
                                                                    -Sony: PS3, KDF-E42A10

                                                                    Office system:
                                                                    -Arcam DV-89, AVR100
                                                                    -B&W LM-1, AS-1

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • kiko
                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                      • Dec 2009
                                                                      • 14

                                                                      #35
                                                                      That's a good idea, I already had thought about it. Or maybe even take my receiver and players to the store. That should be easier than carrying two 16-kg speakers. Anyway, I would say I have probably clocked around 40 hours so far. I am happier now, though I suspect that part of it may be due to the break in process and part to my getting used to the speakers. I will continue with the process and meanwhile invest in better interconnects. I will be in London in February and will seize the opportunity to get them there, because everything here is so much more expensive. Does anyone have stores to suggest in London other than those on Tottenham Court Road? Thanks.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JustinGN
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • May 2009
                                                                        • 105

                                                                        #36
                                                                        A few things, speaking as a happy owner of the 684s myself. First and foremost, your receiver's amp can color the sound in ways you may not like, and it can color it in different ways for each model of speaker. For example, my Denon sounded a bit closed up, while my Dad's Yamaha sounded absolutely god awful to my ears with muddy sound and clipped audio. My Marantz receiver, however, is pristine and clear, and my 684s finally sound like they have room to breathe. That said, I know replacing the receiver is an expensive ticket already here in the states, and from what I know about the Brazilian economy, a $1000 receiver here in the states can easily hit the $3000 mark after tariffs, currency, taxes, etc there. So let's assume you're stuck with the receiver.

                                                                        Breaking in the speakers will make a very subtle difference, but probably not enough to satisfy your ears. Knowing this, I agree with the others in trying to set your Yamaha receiver to treat the speakers as "Small", and use an external subwoofer clocked at a 120Hz crossover (standard fare). By setting the speakers to small, the receiver will clip the low end of the sound, leaving more power to the amps for the mids and hi's. This may make enough of a difference to your ears to satisfy you until you can replace the receiver or add an external amplifier.

                                                                        I've also seen the posts about so-called bus wires, but I can't make a comment about sound quality. For me, my single-wired 684s with the default gold S-connectors sound just fine with the Marantz Receiver. Bi-wiring may improve the sound, or you could also try bi-amping if your receiver supports it (some will let you use the two rear surround channels in a 7.1 setup as bi-amps for your fronts instead, usually via a hard switch on the back of the unit; consult BOTH the 684 and Yamaha manuals first, though).

                                                                        My current setup is a Marantz SR6003 with B&W 684s in the front, 685s in the back, and the HTM61 in the center. I know many folks say the 684s sound bad in comparison to the 683s, and while that may be true, I haven't heard the 683s and my 684s still sound leagues better than anything else I've heard before. The interconnects are plain-jane Monster in-wall speaker wire and Monster Cable Banana Plugs, terminated myself.

                                                                        Wish I had found this thread sooner, but if you have any further questions, I'll try to reply.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • emig5m
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Aug 2008
                                                                          • 646

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by JustinGN
                                                                          I know many folks say the 684s sound bad in comparison to the 683s, and while that may be true, I haven't heard the 683s and my 684s still sound leagues better than anything else I've heard before.
                                                                          I wouldn't ever say the 684 sounds bad, they definitely sound very good with nice detail - they're what sold me on the B&W brand. But the 683 does perform much better for more critical listening with a much more open and unveiled midrange that's milky smooth. Deeper bass extension with more weight and authority behind it and a they also throw up a bigger soundstage that's all easily noticeable - but the midrange performance is really what sets the 683 apart for me from the rest of the 600 series.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • kiko
                                                                            Junior Member
                                                                            • Dec 2009
                                                                            • 14

                                                                            #38
                                                                            [QUOTE=JustinGN] I know replacing the receiver is an expensive ticket already here in the states, and from what I know about the Brazilian economy, a $1000 receiver here in the states can easily hit the $3000 mark after tariffs, currency, taxes, etc there. So let's assume you're stuck with the receiver.

                                                                            Breaking in the speakers will make a very subtle difference, but probably not enough to satisfy your ears. Knowing this, I agree with the others in trying to set your Yamaha receiver to treat the speakers as "Small", and use an external subwoofer clocked at a 120Hz crossover (standard fare)."

                                                                            Hi, Justin, actually this may not be too big a deal in the end, because I could probably sell the receiver here for the full price I paid in the US and wait to buy another one in a future trip, since I travel abroad a few times a year, and taxes for personal purchases on trips are much less than those for stores and businesses. It was also interesting to read that your Dad's Yamaha sucked. I am thinking more and more on replacing my receiver.

                                                                            About the break in process, I wrote to B&W and this is the interesting answer I got from them:

                                                                            "The topic of "burning" or "running in" is always an interesting one, as there are a number of different opinions on the effect, even between our own engineers and audiophile staff.
                                                                            Some believe that there is only a small difference, and that the end user is simply getting more used to the sound of their new speakers over time, and start to appreciate information they did not hear previously. Whilst others agree that after around a hundred or so hours of use, the driver units perform more optimally, as the mechanical properties of the driver changes.
                                                                            Kevlar is around 30-40 hours, the bass units can be anything from 50-100 hours before they are optimal, so I do not feel that being asked to wait around 120 hours is unreasonable.
                                                                            In terms of running them in, there are no rules to follow. You do not have to play them at any particular volume level, simply enjoy them at your preferred listening level."


                                                                            Isn't it interesting? Not even the manufacturers agree on it!

                                                                            By the way: I've replaced interconnects and experienced good improvement in sound quality. On top of that, the run in clock is ticking away, so I feel as if there is further improvement.

                                                                            Even if it's just because I want so much the speakers to sound good, the fact is I like what I hear more and more. I will continue to experience with electronics and interconnects and hopefully will find the best setup.

                                                                            Thanks everyone for the (technical) support.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • JustinGN
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • May 2009
                                                                              • 105

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Kiko, just remember that everyone's ears and tastes are different. I hated the sound of my Dad's Yamaha, but it may not be the cause of your problems - look at as many angles as possible to find the best solution for you. I'd be very, very surprised if it was the speakers, however, but still weigh all of your options first.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Opus007
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Nov 2007
                                                                                • 454

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Kiko,
                                                                                A few years ago I broke into highend audio.I was coming from 300 dollar receivers and home built speakers which I thought where the best there was.I took a trip to my local highend audio store one day and was blown away by the looks of all the new speakers and receivers.So I listened to the 684's and liked them but then listened to the 683's and liked them better.So we made a deal and I bought the 683's ,685's and a htm61 and a pioneer elite top of the line receiver.I got home and set it all up and my first impressions where that this all sounded like crap.I called the dealer and like you was told to allow for breakin.After a couple of weeks I took the Pioneer back and got a yamaha receiver and did not like that so back I went and got a Sony receiver.That did not do it either so I went back and came home with a Rotel reciever.I was still not completly satisified with the sound I was getting.The rotel was sounding better than the units I had tried but still.....not what I was wanting to hear.At this point I was ready to take it all back as I was not happy.I packed everything up but before I took it all back I setup my old system which to me was made in heaven.I sat down to listen to musical bliss and was floored.My once made in heaven system now sounded terrible.Everything was so muddled and there was no soundstage ,just a confusion of sound.I could not understand why my old sytem had turned bad on me.
                                                                                So I removed the old and put the new back in.When I sat down and gave my new sytem another listen I was amazed.It did not sound bad at all ...it sounded different.It was not muddy with overblown bass.The clarity was stunning.Soundstage was something I did not know or hear before but here it was now.
                                                                                Still it was hard to get use to this new sound.But I decieded to give it a few months and am glad I did.You have a good set of speakers in the 684's.Electronics makes a difference and you can drive yourself crazy trying to match speakers to electronics.Going from a receiver to seperates makes a difference.One of the things I did that made a bigger difference than changing electronics is my seating position,and room treatments.
                                                                                The only way I would get rid of my 683's is if I upgrade and they would also be B&W speakers.I have grown to love the B&W sound.
                                                                                Good Luck on your adventure.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • 1oldguy
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2008
                                                                                  • 459

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Appearently there is hope after all.
                                                                                  A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • kiko
                                                                                    Junior Member
                                                                                    • Dec 2009
                                                                                    • 14

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I'm back for an overdue update, about three months after my ordeal began.
                                                                                    First, thanks everyone again for all the support. What Opus 007 wrote right above seems to hit the spot. Let me tell you why.
                                                                                    In these past months, I did some investing in higher quality interconnects (Audioquest and Chord), replaced the old monster speaker cable with QED Silver Anniversary cable with airtight banana plugs (speakers are now bi-wired), fixed my CD changer (I do not play CDs through my DVD anymore) and the result is that I'm a lot happier with what I've got now.
                                                                                    Looking back, what I truly feel is that:
                                                                                    a) There was indeed some improvement in sound with all the changes made.
                                                                                    b) There was some improvement in sound with the break in.
                                                                                    c) There is still improvement to be made in the future once I'm ready ($$) to replace my HT Yamaha receiver with some serious hi-fi receiver. The Yamaha just doesn't cut it.
                                                                                    d) It took me a lot of getting used to the sound signature of the new speakers.

                                                                                    What percentage do I attribute to letters a, b, c or d? I have no clue. I have a gut feeling that the "getting used to" played a larger role than I'd like to assume.

                                                                                    If I had good stores here in Brazil where these products could be sampled easily or knew people who own the kind of gear I am now getting into, then all of this should not come as too much of a surprise.

                                                                                    As for the future, does anybody have suggestions as to what hi-fi receiver should I get? And if I decide to replace my turntable, any suggestions of models and cartridges. I'd be willing to invest about $ 2000.

                                                                                    Thanks

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • ryan.devry
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • Apr 2008
                                                                                      • 60

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      For hi fi receivers I have become a big fan of integra's line of receivers....and rotel
                                                                                      Ryan
                                                                                      -------------------------

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Randell
                                                                                        Junior Member
                                                                                        • Feb 2010
                                                                                        • 16

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        One of the biggest problems I found when I went from huge floor standers with 15" woofers to my B&W 683s was the lack of base. Everything else impressed me though. So to satisfy my bass needs, I added a good subwoofer. Done.

                                                                                        If you don't currently have a good sub then that should be your next purchase IMO.
                                                                                        Yamaha HTR-6290B (130w x 7)
                                                                                        B&W 683s (front)
                                                                                        B&W HTM4S (center)
                                                                                        Pioneer bookshelfs (surrounds)
                                                                                        SVS PC12-Plus subwoofer (525w)

                                                                                        Comment

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