New B&W serie 800 !!!

[stuofsci02]

Couldn't disagree more. Given the same performance level/brand of amps, I've always heard an improvement with the larger more powerful amplifier. For example, at Rotel RB-1080 sounds better than the RB-1070 on every speaker I've done that comparison on. It doesn't matter if it's on a pair of 600 Series or 800 Series, the RB-1080 sounds better. It doesn't play much louder but it sure sounds better.

Now with that said, a better amp, like a Classe CA-2100, will outperform either RB-1080 or RB-1070 and it's less power than either one of them.

Eric

The question of course is.... does it sound better because the amp is more powerful or does it sound better because it is simply a better amp. I feel it is important to differentiate the two for a proper comparison.

Also on a Class A/B amp the amount of power it can produce in Class A will have an impact on sound and typically the bigger the Amp the longer it stays in class A. But I still feel that this has more to do with Amp design then the actual number of watts it takes to drive the speakers with great sound.

[KyaDawn]

Take the speaker sensitivity (88dB for 1 watt @ 1M for the 805Di), add 3 dB to that for room gain and another 3 dB for running in stereo, subtract 10 dB for an average listening distance of 10 feet and you have a set of speakers that will require less than 1 watt of power to reach 78 dB, and about 32 watts for the peaks.

This reminds me of the Youtube video where some guy is running 801Ds with a Sony "minisystem". Did it work? Yes. Did it sound good? I shudder to think... :B

[wettou]

The question of course is.... does it sound better because the amp is more powerful or does it sound better because it is simply a better amp. I feel it is important to differentiate the two for a proper comparison.

Also on a Class A/B amp the amount of power it can produce in Class A will have an impact on sound and typically the bigger the Amp the longer it stays in class A. But I still feel that this has more to do with Amp design then the actual number of watts it takes to drive the speakers with great sound.

Ok I am going to try using Pass Lab amp XA30.5with 802D. Hope I don't screw up my speakers!

http://www.passlabs.com/pass/266/xa305

[AV-OCD]

Couldn't disagree more. Given the same performance level/brand of amps, I've always heard an improvement with the larger more powerful amplifier. For example, at Rotel RB-1080 sounds better than the RB-1070 on every speaker I've done that comparison on. It doesn't matter if it's on a pair of 600 Series or 800 Series, the RB-1080 sounds better. It doesn't play much louder but it sure sounds better.

Now with that said, a better amp, like a Classe CA-2100, will outperform either RB-1080 or RB-1070 and it's less power than either one of them.

Eric

It's always interesting to me to hear this sort of experience from others, as I went through several amps last year, just to see what they brought to the table, and there were no night and day differences between them. One of these days I need to sit with someone like you and do some A/B listening tests between amps. I just don't hear it.

Anyone in the Seattle area that would care to entertain the idea?

[AV-OCD]

The only thing is if you prefer the 805Di's driving by a Denon integrated over the WB driven by Classe separates, then financial wise, you definitely made the right choice! :T

This will be an interesting test for me for sure. While I hope it doesn't come to this, if the Denon / B&W pairing doesn't fair well, the Denon will go. What will replace it, I dunno. Maybe even back to Classe. ops:

[stuofsci02]

Ok I am going to try using Pass Lab amp XA30.5with 802D. Hope I don't screw up my speakers!

http://www.passlabs.com/pass/266/xa305

As long as you are ok with about 98db of peak volume I am sure you'd be amazed at what you will get. You will only damage your speakers if the amp clips and distorts. This will only happen if you turn the volume beyond what the amp can handle. If the amp has a well designed power supply it should offer oodles of enjoyment if the volume levels are kept below 98 db.

When I was fixing my father in laws Luxman R3030 (30 wpc) I used it for a few weeks with my 603 S3. I never had any problem even running it at decent volume levels.

In fact for 10 years I used a 50wpc NAD amplifier and only even clipped it once and I had it really really loud.

Look at a lot of tube amplifiers that range in output from 7 to 23 watts...

[wettou]

This will be an interesting test for me for sure. While I hope it doesn't come to this, if the Denon / B&W pairing doesn't fair well, the Denon will go. What will replace it, I dunno. Maybe even back to Classe. ops:

Pass labs XA30.5

[beden1]

This will be an interesting test for me for sure. While I hope it doesn't come to this, if the Denon / B&W pairing doesn't fair well, the Denon will go. What will replace it, I dunno. Maybe even back to Classe. ops:

Chances are, the Denon will go anyway, so why bother?

[stuofsci02]

This will be an interesting test for me for sure. While I hope it doesn't come to this, if the Denon / B&W pairing doesn't fair well, the Denon will go. What will replace it, I dunno. Maybe even back to Classe. ops:

Have you driven a Chord.. Lately?

[beden1]

This reminds me of the Youtube video where some guy is running 801Ds with a Sony "minisystem". Did it work? Yes. Did it sound good? I shudder to think... :B

I agree completely. I think this argument about amps that has migrated into this thread is nothing short of ridiculous.

[beden1]

As long as you are ok with about 98db of peak volume I am sure you'd be amazed at what you will get. You will only damage your speakers if the amp clips and distorts. This will only happen if you turn the volume beyond what the amp can handle. If the amp has a well designed power supply it should offer oodles of enjoyment if the volume levels are kept below 98 db.

When I was fixing my father in laws Luxman R3030 (30 wpc) I used it for a few weeks with my 603 S3. I never had any problem even running it at decent volume levels.

In fact for 10 years I used a 50wpc NAD amplifier and only even clipped it once and I had it really really loud.

Look at a lot of tube amplifiers that range in output from 7 to 23 watts...

Just because you didn't hear the amp clip, doesn't mean that it sounded good at any volume level!

[beden1]

It's always interesting to me to hear this sort of experience from others, as I went through several amps last year, just to see what they brought to the table, and there were no night and day differences between them. One of these days I need to sit with someone like you and do some A/B listening tests between amps. I just don't hear it.

Anyone in the Seattle area that would care to entertain the idea?

Maybe your testing equipment will be able to hear the difference?

[stuofsci02]

Just because you didn't hear the amp clip, doesn't mean that it sounded good at any volume level!

Obviously.... And just because an amp is 500 wpc doesn't make it sound good at any volume level either..

However, I also use my ears...

[Orb]

that is the biggest area that would concern me about downgrading to 805Di... no FST.

Yeah its one of those love it or not things IMO, but thats the joy of audio the diversity in hardware solutions that does split preferences.
That said I do think from what is said on forums (not a true indicator but still useful) it is a minority who have problems with the FST mid.
I guess same way metal dome tweeters and soft dome tweeters split preferences.

Cheers
Orb

[stuofsci02]

Maybe your testing equipment will be able to hear the difference?

Good for you....

[AV-OCD]

Maybe your testing equipment will be able to hear the difference?

What is with your constant jabs at me? I'm just sharing my experience, while you seem to have a personal vendetta against everything that I say.

Feel free to disagree, but at least be a gentlemen about it. Argue the point, not the person.

[stuofsci02]

Tim,

Did you ever audition the 805s? If so how would you compare the two?

[Orb]

Just because you didn't hear the amp clip, doesn't mean that it sounded good at any volume level!

Just to add, today I heard a rather special integrated amp that has the dynamics IMO equal to the Musical Fidelity KW550 integrated that has massive watts and current.

This integrated amp I heard today just has 165watts into 8ohms, but has very special performance specification including very close to doubling watts 8/4/2ohms.

Even played at wincing reference levels it never hinted at being stressed, either our ears or speaker would reach limit 1st I feel.

So its more than just the watt figure that is critical when considering volume/sound quality/performance.
But like the NAD it does employ some special software clipping limitations although it was not detectable (and I have had 500+watt hybrid and also Class D amps in the past as an experience for comparison).

The room btw is 8m by 10m.

With all this said though, this is IMO a pretty special integrated I heard today and not a reflection of other products, but goes to show we need to consider more than just the watt figure.

Thanks
Orb

[beden1]

What is with your constant jabs at me? I'm just sharing my experience, while you seem to have a personal vendetta against everything that I say.

Feel free to disagree, but at least be a gentlemen about it. Argue the point, not the person.

The problem I have, is you have through many of your posts, come across like you have a golden ear...yet, you don't hear much in the way of differences between a Rotel amp versus a Classe amp, or a receiver versus a Classe processor for that matter. Also IMO, comparing the 805Di to and 802Di is like comparing apples to oranges if they sound close to the speakers they replace, yet you said they were similar even though you listened to each pair with different equipment, etc.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but, I find it interesting that you state your opinions like it's gospel, even though your opinions are quite creative to say the least.

[AV-OCD]

Tim,

Did you ever audition the 805s? If so how would you compare the two?

Sorry, no I haven't. Prior to the Diamonds, the last B&W I listened to was the 803D. At that time I was looking for large floorstanding speakers, so I didn't even consider the 805S. Prior to the 803D, I listened to the smaller 804N. Didn't care for either of those speakers.

[beden1]

Obviously.... And just because an amp is 500 wpc doesn't make it sound good at any volume level either..

However, I also use my ears...

Exactly, it's the quality of the amplification and not always the quantity that makes the difference. But, in my own experience, more quality amplification provides more headroom, which translates into a fuller, more complete sound even at low listening levels.

[wettou]

Sorry, no I haven't. Prior to the Diamonds, the last B&W I listened to was the 803D. At that time I was looking for large floorstanding speakers, so I didn't even consider the 805S. Prior to the 803D, I listened to the smaller 804N. Didn't care for either of those speakers.

The 805 where nice but probably not the same caliber of the 805D!

Have you ever listen to the Paradigm Signature S1 (P-Be™) or Paradigm Signature S2 P-Be™

[beden1]

Sorry, no I haven't. Prior to the Diamonds, the last B&W I listened to was the 803D. At that time I was looking for large floorstanding speakers, so I didn't even consider the 805S. Prior to the 803D, I listened to the smaller 804N. Didn't care for either of those speakers.

You probably did not give the 803Ds enough of a listen with the right front end and amplification.

I am in love with my 803Ds since I added the Classe SSP-800 and the Classe CAM-350s. They do a very satisfying job in my large room. :T

[stuofsci02]

Exactly, it's the quality of the amplification and not always the quantity that makes the difference. But, in my own experience, more quality amplification provides more headroom, which translates into a fuller, more complete sound even at low listening levels.

I certainly agree that it is about the quality of the amp.. That is why I have said in numerous threads to just listen to the amp and not worry about the power numbers. If an amp can put out 100 wpc into a difficult speaker load and maintain low distortion then I am sure most would not be wanting more.

If you took the same amp and made it 200 wpc and maintained the distortion numbers the same as the 100 wpc then I would doubt anyone could tell the difference unless listening to it a dangerously loud levels.

The problem comes with the power supply being up to the task and the amp being able to maintain low distorion at higher output. This is where is takes a quality amp to do the job.. But not necessarily a bigger one.

[stuofsci02]

Orb.... What was this mystery integrated with 165 wpc?

Just to add, today I heard a rather special integrated amp that has the dynamics IMO equal to the Musical Fidelity KW550 integrated that has massive watts and current.

This integrated amp I heard today just has 165watts into 8ohms, but has very special performance specification including very close to doubling watts 8/4/2ohms.

Even played at wincing reference levels it never hinted at being stressed, either our ears or speaker would reach limit 1st I feel.

So its more than just the watt figure that is critical when considering volume/sound quality/performance.
But like the NAD it does employ some special software clipping limitations although it was not detectable (and I have had 500+watt hybrid and also Class D amps in the past as an experience for comparison).

The room btw is 8m by 10m.

With all this said though, this is IMO a pretty special integrated I heard today and not a reflection of other products, but goes to show we need to consider more than just the watt figure.

Thanks
Orb

[beden1]

I certainly agree that it is about the quality of the amp.. That is why I have said in numerous threads to just listen to the amp and not worry about the power numbers. If an amp can put out 100 wpc into a difficult speaker load and maintain low distortion then I am sure most would not be wanting more.

If you took the same amp and made it 200 wpc and maintained the distortion numbers the same as the 100 wpc then I would doubt anyone could tell the difference unless listening to it a dangerously loud levels.

The problem comes with the power supply being up to the task and the amp being able to maintain low distorion at higher output. This is where is takes a quality amp to do the job.. But not necessarily a bigger one.

But, that's where I have found the benefit of using a larger amp(s), in that the sound becomes fuller and surprisingly more detailed at low/lower volumes. It may be because I am now using 350 watt mono Classe amps, but I immediately recognized the difference when I switched from a 6 X 150 watts per channel Classe amp that I had been using. (I listened again after I had Classe completely refurbish my 6 channel amp, and I noticed the same quality differences. More clarity)

I should probably get one of those testing meters, but a good case in point. I currently have my 803Ds each powered by a 350 watt mono amp, and my HTM2D powered using a passive bi-amp of 2 X 150 watts = 300 watts. For HT, my ears seem most satisfied when I up the gain on the HTM2D by 5 to 6db. All 3 front channels are connected to the SSP-800 using balanced cables. The tweeters on all 3 speakers are level with one another.

Why is this?

[wettou]

I should probably get one of those testing meters, but a good case in point. I currently have my 803Ds each powered by a 350 watt mono amp, and my HTM2D powered using a passive bi-amp of 2 X 150 watts = 300 watts. For HT, my ears seem most satisfied when I up the gain on the HTM2D by 5 to 6db. All 3 front channels are connected to the SSP-800 using balanced cables. The tweeters on all 3 speakers are level with one another.

Mono amps are the way to go

[AV-OCD]

The problem I have, is you have through many of your posts, come across like you have a golden ear...yet, you don't hear much in the way of differences between a Rotel amp versus a Classe amp, or a receiver versus a Classe processor for that matter. Also IMO, comparing the 805Di to and 802Di is like comparing apples to oranges if they sound close to the speakers they replace, yet you said they were similar even though you listened to each pair with different equipment, etc.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but, I find it interesting that you state your opinions like it's gospel, even though your opinions are quite creative to say the least.

Hmm, well I'm not sure how you got that impression from my posts. I rarely say anything in definitive terms and if I were a self proclaimed golden ear I would surely be able to tell the difference between two amps. :W

I'm just an average guy with an above average interest in the hobby and a strong interest in the truth. You have to admit that there is a lot of BS to wade through in this hobby.

I never said that the 805Di and 802Di sounded the same, I said that I did not find the sound of the 802Di to be a quantum leap better than the 805Di at the volumes I listened to.

Well anyway, we can go around and around on this or any other experience I share, but in the end I think it is best for this thread to burry the hatchet and just accept that we have opposing approaches to the hobby.

And that's gospel. :B

[AV-OCD]

The 805 where nice but probably not the same caliber of the 805D!

Have you ever listen to the Paradigm Signature S1 (P-Be™) or Paradigm Signature S2 P-Be™

I owned the Paradigm Sig S8 V1 and the S4 V1. Great all around speakers, though in the end I wished for greater "transparency".

Haven't heard the Be models, and probably won't have the chance to now that I've chosen the 805Di's.

[Orb]

Orb.... What was this mystery integrated with 165 wpc?

It was the Devialet D-Premier.
Curious enough to audition it as I was about to put the cash down on the Chord CPA5000 preamp and they both the same cost (Hifinews review has cost wrong on the Devialet).
The review can be found online here, this initial page is marketing info with the review as a PDF URL link on the far side of that page:

http://www.absolutesounds.com/index.php?page=21&product_id=536&category3=Integrated solid state amplifier&category3_id=4&category2=Amplifiers&category2_id=2&category1=Audio&category1_id=1&manufacturer=Devialet&manufacturer_id=27

BTW to stress nothing wrong with the Chord bud and did not have itchy fingers to replace the power amp but the intention was always to look at the Chord reference preamp long term.
But, this product is rather special IMO and has the strengths I like in the Chord combined with what is good about Class A (oversimplification but easiest way to describe it).
For many they may feel it is not cheap at £10,000 but IMO nothing competes with it at this price point or lower while it also has future considerations such as direct digital input for high quality streaming,etc.
Basically its a digital integrated amp (and 24/192 DAC) with a PWM/Class A stage.

Thanks
Orb

[Briz vegas]

It's like running a dedicated 20A AC line to a 100 watt light bulb. Unless you are running stadium lighting off of that 20A line, it is simply overkill.

Have you tried a dedicated line? I have a 20A 6mm dedicated line installed last year on my 185w Conrad Johnson. One of the best upgrades I ever did and amazing value for money.

[wettou]

Hmm, well I'm not sure how you got that impression from my posts. I rarely say anything in definitive terms and if I were a self proclaimed golden ear I would surely be able to tell the difference between two amps. :W

I'm just an average guy with an above average interest in the hobby and a strong interest in the truth. You have to admit that there is a lot of BS to wade through in this hobby.

I never said that the 805Di and 802Di sounded the same, I said that I did not find the sound of the 802Di to be a quantum leap better than the 805Di at the volumes I listened to.

Well anyway, we can go around and around on this or any other experience I share, but in the end I think it is best for this thread to burry the hatchet and just accept that we have opposing approaches to the hobby.

And that's gospel. :B

How dare you I agree with you the amount of BS in that business is impressive. To each his own

[stuofsci02]

It was the Devialet D-Premier.
Curious enough to audition it as I was about to put the cash down on the Chord CPA5000 preamp and they both the same cost (Hifinews review has cost wrong on the Devialet).
The review can be found online here, this initial page is marketing info with the review as a PDF URL link on the far side of that page:

http://www.absolutesounds.com/index.php?page=21&product_id=536&category3=Integrated solid state amplifier&category3_id=4&category2=Amplifiers&category2_id=2&category1=Audio&category1_id=1&manufacturer=Devialet&manufacturer_id=27

BTW to stress nothing wrong with the Chord bud and did not have itchy fingers to replace the power amp but the intention was always to look at the Chord reference preamp long term.
But, this product is rather special IMO and has the strengths I like in the Chord combined with what is good about Class A (oversimplification but easiest way to describe it).
For many they may feel it is not cheap at £10,000 but IMO nothing competes with it at this price point or lower while it also has future considerations such as direct digital input for high quality streaming,etc.
Basically its a digital integrated amp (and 24/192 DAC) with a PWM/Class A stage.

Thanks
Orb

CPA5000???? Man... You are way up there in the Chord lineup... I am still using my 7 year old $700 AVR as my preamp to my Chord Amp... Sad but true... That must make you want to hurl..

[beden1]

Have you tried a dedicated line? I have a 20A 6mm dedicated line installed last year on my 185w Conrad Johnson. One of the best upgrades I ever did and amazing value for money.

I agree with you 100%. I added two 20A dedicated lines to power my system. I think this mod is a no brainer. I have (2) 350 watt amps and a 6 channel X 150 watts amp plugged into one circuit; and all other components plugged into the second 20A circuit. My sub woofer amp is plugged into a 15A house circuit.

Even if you ran just new 15A lines, these are on their own circuits and do not get any interference from anything else sharing the existing house lines. I did this for my other house system as well, and finally got rid of a bad ground interference on the house lines.

The system now has zero noise or buzzing at no volume, the mono amps stay cooler, and the now quiet background helps with the aura of transparency.

[stuofsci02]

I agree with you 100%. I added two 20A dedicated lines to power my system. I think this mod is a no brainer. I have (2) 350 watt amps and a 6 channel X 150 watts amp plugged into one circuit; and all other components plugged into the second 20A circuit. My sub woofer amp is plugged into a 15A house circuit.

Even if you ran just new 15A lines, these are on their own circuits and do not get any interference from anything else sharing the existing house lines. I did this for my other house system as well, and finally got rid of a bad ground interference on the house lines.

The system now has zero noise or buzzing at no volume, the mono amps stay cooler, and the now quiet background helps with the aura of transparancy.

How did you isolate your new dedicated circuits from your other house circuits. Unless all of your noisey circuits use the other half of your 240V service you would have to install some sort of isolation device. If no isolation device or conditioner is installed the only real advantage that I could see is being able to increase wire gauge and have all 20A dedicated to your system.

[beden1]

How did you isolate your new dedicated circuits from your other house circuits. Unless all of your noisey circuits use the other half of your 240V service you would have to install some sort of isolation device. If no isolation device or conditioner is installed the only real advantage that I could see is being able to increase wire gauge and have all 20A dedicated to your system.

The electrician installed a dedicated isolated fuse box before he ran the lines.

[KyaDawn]

This will be an interesting test for me for sure. While I hope it doesn't come to this, if the Denon / B&W pairing doesn't fair well, the Denon will go. What will replace it, I dunno. Maybe even back to Classe. ops:

The 4810 is 140 wpc I believe so it should be plenty enough for the 805Dis. I wonder how it would sound though driving stereo fronts. I'm using my 4308 to power my 805Ss, but as surrounds and it's fine. Like I said, if they sound good, then you made a great decision cost-wise! :T

[AV-OCD]

Have you tried a dedicated line? I have a 20A 6mm dedicated line installed last year on my 185w Conrad Johnson. One of the best upgrades I ever did and amazing value for money.

Sorry for the confusion, that was analogy. Not actually debating the benefits of a dedicated AC line.

[AV-OCD]

The 4810 is 140 wpc I believe so it should be plenty enough for the 805Dis. I wonder how it would sound though driving stereo fronts. I'm using my 4308 to power my 805Ss, but as surrounds and it's fine. Like I said, if they sound good, then you made a great decision cost-wise! :T

I went for the Denon big guns - the AVR5308, with a torroidal transformer and the updgraded DACs and processors. What I'm more concerned about at the moment is the base-line sound quality. But I'll have to wait until I get the 805Di's to make that call since I'm temporarily running some very inexpensive speakers right now and it don't sound so good. Go figure. :W

[Orb]

CPA5000???? Man... You are way up there in the Chord lineup... I am still using my 7 year old $700 AVR as my preamp to my Chord Amp... Sad but true... That must make you want to hurl..

Hah dont worry Stu I have been there as well mate
When your ready there are plenty of excellent preamps out there at far more competitive prices that will add to the fun factor and thrill of getting closer to realising your complete solution to go with what you already purchased.

And of course all of us will be interested, including me.

Cheers
Orb

[Orb]

I went for the Denon big guns - the AVR5308, with a torroidal transformer and the updgraded DACs and processors. What I'm more concerned about at the moment is the base-line sound quality. But I'll have to wait until I get the 805Di's to make that call since I'm temporarily running some very inexpensive speakers right now and it don't sound so good. Go figure. :W

Use headphones bud

Cheers
Orb

[AV-OCD]

Use headphones bud

Cheers
Orb

Not a bad idea, if I owned a decent set of cans. Never been a headphone guy. Too confining and I don't care for the sound in the head effect.

[MikeFL52]

This really has become a let's discuss anything thread. Based upon this thread maybe we need a "thought for the day thread" that people can be politely controversial on.

[AV-OCD]

This really has become a let's discuss anything thread. Based upon this thread maybe we need a "thought for the day thread" that people can be politely controversial on.

Yeah, I agree. No thanks to me. ops:

I'm going to politely bow out of any discussion other than that which pertains to the 800 Diamond Series.

Speaking of, I have a friend that is attending the unveiling of the 800 Diamond series right now at his local dealer. The early report from him and his friends with him is that the star of the show is the 805Di. He didn't give me a lot of detail, but they are running everything on Classe gear and he "likes the midrange of the 805Di the best" (as compared to the 800Di, and 804Di).

[beden1]

Yeah, I agree. No thanks to me. ops:

I'm going to politely bow out of any discussion other than that which pertains to the 800 Diamond Series.

Speaking of, I have a friend that is attending the unveiling of the 800 Diamond series right now at his local dealer. The early report from him and his friends with him is that the star of the show is the 805Di. He didn't give me a lot of detail, but they are running everything on Classe gear and he "likes the midrange of the 805Di the best" (as compared to the 801Di, and 804Di).

Was the room where they listened to the 805Di's the size of 8'X10"? The 801Di's would have been to overpowering in that size of room.