800D's - Paid, Laid and Made!

[SoundEngine355]

how do you build your own amp??

Its not easy, you have two options... you can design one from scratch or you can use a published design, heaps of the out on the web... diyaudio has a whole section dedicated to DIY amplifiers.

The hidden cost is your time and remember its very hard to "upgrade" as not many people want to buy others DIY work, but you can upgrade as your system changes becuase you know all the components.

[jamesdaman]

is there a way in upgrading my quad 909??

[SoundEngine355]

is there a way in upgrading my quad 909??

Not sure, you could open it up and see if you can replace capacitors and wiring with better quality ones.

[SoundEngine355]

double post

[SoundEngine355]

Looking at new speaker cables now

[jamesdaman]

how can i change things like that, ive literaly no idea??

[SoundEngine355]

Testing with 300W mono block, only using 2 of the 6 22,000uF capacitors

[jlr_1304]

Do you have pics of the classe amps ?

[SoundEngine355]

Do you have pics of the classe amps ?

No, but I will go take one now. I've been waiting on the new carpet for the TV room.

[SoundEngine355]

double post

[SoundEngine355]

They are currently along the LONG wall, I will be moving them along the SHORT wall on the right which will give an extra 2m distance between the speaker and the listening seat, just waiting on the new carpet to cover the whole room.

[MikeFL52]

Have you thought about bringing the speakers out and away from the wall and furniture and toeing them slightly? I think you might be surprised at what it could add to what is already proabably a fantastic sound, especially in terms of imaging.

[jlr_1304]

Have you thought about bringing the speakers out and away from the wall and furniture and toeing them slightly? I think you might be surprised at what it could add to what is already proabably a fantastic sound, especially in terms of imaging.

The sofa on the rigth is in the way. There's a bit of room redesign to be made IMO.

[SoundEngine355]

The sofa on the rigth is in the way. There's a bit of room redesign to be made IMO.

Only when I get my new carpet will I move everything around.

[SoundEngine355]

B&W 800D Crossover

Tweeter - 4.7uF Mundorf Gold/Silver Capacitor
Midrange - 22uf+22uF+10uF Mundorf Supreme Capacitors
Woofer - 100uf+100uF Mundorf Mcap Capacitors

Tweeter/Midrange uses Van Den Hul CS-14 Copper/Silver 14AWG cable
Woofers use copper 12AWG cable

[Orb]

I've been comparing the following electronics on my B&W 800D with surprising results:

Classe CA-M400 (Pair)
Classe CDP-102 using RCA outputs direct to amplifier

System cost: $28,700AUD

VS

DIY 300W/8, 500W/4 mono block (Pair)
Oppo BDP-83 using RCA outputs direct to amplifier

System cost: $5,000AUD

I borrowed a pair of Kimber KS-3035 speaker cables and KS-1036 interconnects for testing.

So with a SPL meter to get the levels right and not basing the system comparison on value for money, the DIY/Oppo combination really makes the 800D's sing, more so then the Classe. So I thought maybe the CDP-102 needs XLR, I then used a KS-1136 interconnect, same result. I then have borrowed a friends CDP-202 with CP-700 (Just incase a PRE is needed to get the best out of the classe, not sure why though) sure enough... same result. The DIY/Oppo combo still provides smooth and clear mid/highs and deep, punchy bass.

I'm going to do some further upgrades to the DIY amps and see how much further I can take them.

FIY the Oppo's volume and only be increased and decreased by 5 increments, which does make it hard to get the levels right, but add a PRE to get better control and your laughing.

I used music from Jazz, house, drum and bass, rock, classical to do my testing.

My favourite track is Diana Krall, Live in Paris, Track 01.

Heya SoundEngine,
have you tried to compare both amps with a pre-amp in the system as well?
I appreciate some feel preamps dont add much while others believe preamps are pretty critical; we all have our own experiences/opinions on this I am sure.

Just would be nice to see if this affects the quality of the sound you are hearing and would be an interesting comparison, so here is hoping you have built your own JC Blowtorch that is discussed on DIYAudio
Ok maybe not that one hehe.

Looking forward to how you get on.
Cheers
Orbs

[SoundEngine355]

Heya SoundEngine,
have you tried to compare both amps with a pre-amp in the system as well?
I appreciate some feel preamps dont add much while others believe preamps are pretty critical; we all have our own experiences/opinions on this I am sure.

Just would be nice to see if this affects the quality of the sound you are hearing and would be an interesting comparison, so here is hoping you have built your own JC Blowtorch that is discussed on DIYAudio
Ok maybe not that one hehe.

Looking forward to how you get on.
Cheers
Orbs

Cool

[SoundEngine355]

Now looking at a new CD player

[SoundEngine355]

Krell make some very fine sounding amplifiers! The EVO sound amazing!

[ShadowZA]

I've been speaking with Van Den Hul regarding upgrading the internal wiring, they have recommended using a better quality wire then the CS-14, the SCS-12 http://www.vandenhul.com/p_D12AC.aspx .

I'm interested in following your proposed upgrade path. Please keep us posted as to what you do and your opinions regarding any differences in sound that you may notice.

[SoundEngine355]

Mark Levinson hasn't brought out a new amplifier in awhile.

[SoundEngine355]

Learn more about what you buy:

Classe CA-M400

[SoundEngine355]

double post

[sikoniko]

don't you void your warranty by messing with internal wiring?

[1oldguy]

I would imagine for people who can afford the speakers in the first place that money isn't a problem if something went wrong But yes I would imagine it would affect the warranty.
I've always had a feeling that B&W could have used better wire all along...i see I'm not the only one who feels this way.Considering the price of the 800 series I think they could have done better all things considered and for very little extra cost.

[Orb]

SoundEngine,
thanks for responding to the question and good to know you did also try a preamp.

Regarding the re-wiring of the 800 series, I am sure awhile ago this was done by quite a few on DIYAudio, they all felt there was an improvement in using better wiring.
May also been a few here who have tried it as well.
But I do know there seemed to be a trend at onetime to improve the wiring in the this range of speakers with those with a hand in DIY.

Cheers
Orbs

[sikoniko]

I would imagine for people who can afford the speakers in the first place that money isn't a problem if something went wrong But yes I would imagine it would affect the warranty.
I've always had a feeling that B&W could have used better wire all along...i see I'm not the only one who feels this way.Considering the price of the 800 series I think they could have done better all things considered and for very little extra cost.

most people that have acquired wealth have not gotten this way by spending money foolishly... but then again, if you compare the price of the 800D to the Wilson X-2, then you could afford to use the 800D's for any number of things, such as laying it on its side and making benches... removing the marlan head and replace it with your bowling ball... i'm sure there are more things to do with them...

[numberoneoppa]

most people that have acquired wealth have not gotten this way by spending money foolishly... but then again, if you compare the price of the 800D to the Wilson X-2, then you could afford to use the 800D's for any number of things, such as laying it on its side and making benches... removing the marlan head and replace it with your bowling ball... i'm sure there are more things to do with them...

Haha, this made me laugh. Thank you.

[SoundEngine355]

Trying out new speaker positions now

[SoundEngine355]

dame these speakers are heavy!

[SoundEngine355]

Picked the cables up today, very nice. Will not get a chance to upgrade this weekend, however will be moving the room around, so will post some updated pictures soon.

[SoundEngine355]

Latest upgrade to the 800D could be:

1 x 500W/8 amplifier per 10" woofer driver, 4 amplifiers in total
1 x 500W/8 amplifier for midrange/tweeter, 2 amplifiers in total

OR

1 x 300W/8 for midrange/tweeter
1 x 1500W/8 for woofers

[mjb]

Notes:

All wiring looks like 14AWG
Amp module output is only 14AWG
Its a bridged design (using two amp modules)
Bi-wiring is pointless unless you plan on using different cables for woofers vs mid/tweeter.

Please help me to understand something....
Everyone seems pretty unanimous that Classe M400's are pretty damn good, but what you've found on opening the box isn't. How can this be?

I don't really want to mention internal speaker wire upgrades, but I'm sure some one with a spread sheet has worked out what AWG they can get away with.

[SoundEngine355]

More listening and testing positions this weekend.

[aarsoe]

I would agree that it is possible to "upgrade" any speaker to suit your own taste better than how it is from factory. However you need to considder that from factory, B&W in this case, is trying to create a speaker who can do it all - that is be just a good for classical as for heavy metal.
Going back in time I had a set of Matrix 801's that I modified big time. That is component exchange in the crossover, removal of the crossover, new cabling etc. And yes the results where absolutly worth every penny and much more.
However having said that I would still need to reach a level of "ownership" - not initially - before I would do the same to my 802Ds.
BUT - if I where to do anything, one of the first thing would be to improve on that gastly resistor that B&W for some reason seems addimate about including in their designs. I am sure it is to ensure that you cannot play to loud for to long, but I am not 22 any more so that is hardly an issue for me... :-)

[SoundEngine355]

Going to test a few more amplifiers today.

[SoundEngine355]

Another reason I am looking into Class-D amplifiers is the size, becuase of the power output I seek, the size of the amplifiers are just getting too big.

I've had a number of dealers say Class-D amplifiers sound "thin" in the midrange, then I ask the question, "Have you actually listened to a Class-D amplifier?" and the answer is "No".

Anyway I have done some work with Bel Canto S300's before as a friend uses it for his Sonus Faber Auditor M's and I added a couple of input capacitors to get a warmer sound, was very impressed.

[Jovl]

Over the next few weeks I will be testing the following options:

1. 2 x Bel Canto REF1000MKii per 800D
2. 1 x DIY 700W mono block and 1 x 300W mono block per 800D
3. 1 x DIY 1500W mono block per 800D
4. 1 x DIY 1500W mono block and 1 x 300W mono block per 800D

I have the 800D with Krell FPB700cx , it is amazing...........

Gr Jovl

[SoundEngine355]

Cool!

[SoundEngine355]

I'll post some pictures soon

[ShadowZA]

Here is some updated pictures:

Fantastic setup! You might want to experiment a little and move your 800D's out into the room a bit (away from the walls). Should benefit the sound quite a bit. Wish you were back here in Cape Town, then we could compare systems and tweak them. :T

[SoundEngine355]

Fantastic setup! You might want to experiment a little and move your 800D's out into the room a bit (away from the walls). Should benefit the sound quite a bit. Wish you were back here in Cape Town, then we could compare systems and tweak them. :T

I've angled them in to face the centre of the sofa. Cannot move them out anymore as I will be adding another sofa shortly.

[mvdveek]

Would love to see you post some pics of your speakerupgrade.
And if you arent getting the sound you are looking for perhaps fidle around with your room some more first. Could end up saving you alot of cash.

[SoundEngine355]

Would love to see you post some pics of your speakerupgrade.
And if you arent getting the sound you are looking for perhaps fidle around with your room some more first. Could end up saving you alot of cash.

I'll hopefully get on to finishing one of the speakers next weekend, so I will post some pictures then

This is a temporary room, I've got a dedicated 6x4m (20x13 foot) room on the way.

Internal cable upgrades are cheap as chips compared to room treatments, amplifiers, cd and pre's!

[ShadowZA]

SoundEngine355, I need to PM you but your message quota is full and cannot accept futher messages until some space is cleared.

Ta