A look inside the B&W 683......literally :)

[B_W_Guy]

I decided to play

this is a picture of the bottom woofer removed. there was white foam covering this peice. i think its part of the crossover. There was also something on the bottem of the speaker that felt like a crossover but i could not see it. I didnt want to totally rip apart the speaker so i just took out the bottom woofer and the FST.



next we have the fst midrange with the cover removed



next is the inside of the top cabinet behind the FST midrange. it is separated from the rest of the cabinet. I was told there was no separation in the 600 series. looks to me there is?



the next 5 are the FST midrange. this is the 683 midrange. lets not confuse this with the 800 series midrange.











this next picture is the little wee tube loaded tweeter



next is another picture of the midrange cabinet. that's a piece of wood under all that foam. a strong piece of wood i might add.



the next two are the crossover. 1 of 2 of these things are in the speaker.





this one is the flow port. and yes it does have dimples on the end inside the speaker. i always wondered that?



and the following 5 is the bass driver. as you can see there is a paper/kevlar coating on the back. apparently for damning. read something about that in a review.











this one is behind the bottom driver. the crossover is behind this but B&W even has foam covering this up to.



one thing i noticed is EVERYTHING in this speaker is B&W made. down to the last wire. if you can see the wire says B&W on it. this was a hard picture to get.



another great thing i noticed is they even put gaskets around the drivers.





So all in all for the price I think this speaker is DAMN WELL MADE. After opening this baby up i had much more appreciation for this speaker. I did not know that it had this much engineering behind it. Didnt know it had the bracing or the separate chamber for the midrange. B&W really outdid themselves on this speaker. It is worth every penny.

[Frank Helmling]

Thanks for sharing! I love these kinda inside looks of my stuff!

[emig5m]

Well even my old Radio Shack Optimus Mach II's had a separate midrange chamber as did my Cerwin Vega's. So I knew that the 683 would without even taking it apart. :

[pixeljedi]

Thanks for posting - this is great!

I am a bit disappointed at seeing so much particle board, but I understand the cost reasons for using it. The glue drips are pretty sad though - I know nobody is going to see it, but it's just sloppy workmanship in my book.

Thanks again, I wanted to do this, but didn't want to risk marking up my gear.

[DM3000 Owner]

Thanks for posting - this is great!

I am a bit disappointed at seeing so much particle board, but I understand the cost reasons for using it. The glue drips are pretty sad though - I know nobody is going to see it, but it's just sloppy workmanship in my book.

Thanks again, I wanted to do this, but didn't want to risk marking up my gear.

Guess what the 800 series is made of.

[BVoss]

Wow. Thank you very much for posting this.

Very interesting.

And, that one picture makes your thumb look GIGANTIC in comparison to the rest of your hand.

[sunshdw]

Nice write up!! I intend to address the cabinets in the near future by adding strength and different stuffing. One of the other things I've been pondering is swapping in the 803s fst driver. Wouldn't by very difficult to adapt the different mounting but I'd also use the 803 mid x-over. Here's a couple pics of the differences

[pixeljedi]

Guess what the 800 series is made of.

OMG! Are you serious?!? That is just so totally sad!

[Lex]

Actually, there are sound resonance reasons that MDF is the right choice for speaker building, it also won't warp like plywood can, and is denser from a sound resonance perspective I believe. Go see thomas or Jon in MP and they can confirm what I am saying probably. well, I can't say certainly, but I am pretty sure.

[pixeljedi]

I don't mind the idea of using seriously dense MDF for speaker enclosures, but the pics show what looks to be IKEA-grade particle board.

But if there's an acoustic reason for using particle board in a edit:[B&W] series speaker, I'm all ears

[sunshdw]

I don't mind the idea of using seriously dense MDF for speaker enclosures, but the pics show what looks to be IKEA-grade particle board.

But if there's an acoustic reason for using particle board in a edit:[B&W] series speaker, I'm all ears

WOW sorry us 600 series people are beneath you......IKEA grade?? thanks pal, perhaps they should sell these at walmart :wtf:

[pixeljedi]

WOW sorry us 600 series people are beneath you......IKEA grade?? thanks pal, perhaps they should sell these at walmart

You're misunderstanding my observation.

I own the 683s, and am not happy with the internal build quality, given the pictures presented, specifically the dripping glue and particle board. I'm not implying that I'm above anyone, nor that these should be sold at Wal-mart or IKEA. Just stating that the wood used in the build looks to be of the same grade used in very cheaply built furniture. Definitely not something you'd pay $1500 for (as in the case of the 683s).

My 683s were however bought for the quality of the sound they produced, which is excellent.

[B_W_Guy]

are we forgetting that the 600 series is a BUDGET LINE. i.e B&W's cheap line. your not going to get a hole hell of a lot more for the money. made in china means made in china. the bracing inside the speaker is what you see. but what you cannot see is the actual cabinet. this could be made of a denser board who knows. and the glue.....made in china. go take apart another speaker worth less then $2000 and i doubt your going to find something better. but in the end its all about how its sounds. and they sound damn good.

[B_W_Guy]

also does anybody know what the thing at the bottom of the speaker is. there was no picture as i couldn't get one. but it felt like a crossover. but if it is then there's 2 in the cabinet? could someone explain?

[B_W_Guy]

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/365430.html

[mjb]

I own the 683s, and am not happy with the internal build quality, given the pictures presented, specifically the dripping glue and particle board. I'm not implying that I'm above anyone, nor that these should be sold at Wal-mart or IKEA. Just stating that the wood used in the build looks to be of the same grade used in very cheaply built furniture. Definitely not something you'd pay $1500 for (as in the case of the 683s).

My 683s were however bought for the quality of the sound they produced, which is excellent.

No offense, but how can you judge the quality of the MDF from these pictures, and suggest its not upto the job? B&W make fine speakers, and have been doing so for 50 years, so they must be doing something right. The possibility of there being an unseen glue drip inside somewhere isn't going to spoil my enjoyment of the speaker either. The main thing is they sound good, and last a long time, which they do!

[mjb]

One of the other things I've been pondering is swapping in the 803s fst driver. Wouldn't by very difficult to adapt the different mounting but I'd also use the 803 mid x-over. Here's a couple pics of the differences

Why? Your speaker has a better second hand value if its not messed with, and B&W have other (better ~ more expensive) products on offer. Did you consider trading up?

[pixeljedi]

are we forgetting that the 600 series is a BUDGET LINE. i.e B&W's cheap line.

I mentioned earlier that I understood the cost reasons for using the particle board in the 600 series. After all, they are a corporation that has a primary goal of making money.

made in china means made in china. the bracing inside the speaker is what you see. but what you cannot see is the actual cabinet. this could be made of a denser board who knows. and the glue.....made in china.

True, the outside could be a denser MDF. But just because it's made in China doesn't mean the glue has to be left like that. Your link mentions:

"Bowers & Wilkins factory managers and engineers have spent more than two years supervising construction of this first-class manufacturing plant and training the operating staff"

Which means, in a span of two years, they could have told the workers to wipe up their glue after they put it down.

go take apart another speaker worth less then $2000 and i doubt your going to find something better.

Well, the thing that irked me was when I read the 800 series has the particle board in it as well. If no one complains or sees the evidence of the areas they cheaped out on, then they wont bother upgrading it. Why would they change it if no one cares? I'm pointing out that I care, and feel a bit sour that inside my nice 683s are obscene glue drips and cheap particle board bracing it together.

I've built my fair share of sub boxes when I was in my teens and I would never have used that cheap stuff in any of my builds. Why? Go buy some particle board that looks like the stuff in the pic, and some dense MDF and do a flex comparison - You'll see the results pretty quick. Heck, I would have paid the extra for them to wipe up the glue and use stronger bracing.

but in the end its all about how its sounds. and they sound damn good.

Totally agree with you - they do sound good. Now I'm wondering how good they'd sound in a new enclosure

[pixeljedi]

No offense, but how can you judge the quality of the MDF from these pictures, and suggest its not upto the job?

Easy, I've made speaker boxes before, and that particle board in the pic is much more flexible than dense MDF. Next time you're at a lumber yard give the two a comparison.

Just need to also point out that MDF and particle board are not the same thing.

The possibility of there being an unseen glue drip inside somewhere isn't going to spoil my enjoyment of the speaker either.

I'm still going to enjoy my 683s, no question there - they sound good, but I sure wont be buying another pair of them after seeing these pics.

[DM3000 Owner]

Actually, there are sound resonance reasons that MDF is the right choice for speaker building, it also won't warp like plywood can, and is denser from a sound resonance perspective I believe. Go see thomas or Jon in MP and they can confirm what I am saying probably. well, I can't say certainly, but I am pretty sure.

Plywood has its fibers aligned and tends to resonate. Particle board has its fibers laid out randomly and is dense. It does not tend to resonate and is a good material for speaker building.

I have had S800's, M801's and DM3000's opened. They all look the same. Particle board and lots of glue runs. I would do it the same way. Use lots of glue and let it run. Better to have a solid joint than a pretty one where you canot see it.

I ave had many other speakers opened and the B&W's are top shelf. The internal bracing is expensive to build and others omit it.

EDIT: I mean "MDF" not particleboard.

[NMG]

I did a double blind listening session with some buddies once where we used 600 series speakers (although I'm sure the results would be the same with 700 and 800 series speakers). One set of speakers was completely "stock" and the other set had been opened up and had all of the glue runs removed.

The stock speakers sounded great, but the ones with no glue runs? WOW. The mids were more balanced, the highs were a little crisper and while the bass tone didn't change, we all agreed that it was much faster and tighter. Overall the speaker had a more natural sound with more presence that the one full of glue runs. Definitely a great mod :B :B :B

[pixeljedi]

LOL!

Yeah, haha, I know it wont make a difference with to the sound. It's just to me, seeing glue runs is like seeing badly written production code.

[Opus007]

I feel it is totally ridiculous that you would not buy a pair of speakesr due to the fact that the bracing looks cheap to you and some glue runs.As for the quality of the enclosure itself I can just picture you going to your dealer and telling him/her to open it up and you want to see if it has glue runs or is cheaply made. :rofl: What should matter is sound quality.For the price the 683's are in a class of their own.Totally awesome sound for a very low price.Just my 2 cents worth and my opinion only.

[pixeljedi]

I wouldn't ask to open up a unit, but I will question the insides from now on before making a purchase. Why shouldn't you, the consumer, question a company's build quality? If a company is going to cheap out on certain areas, I think it's our job to point out the areas they're sloppy on. You might not care about glue drips or cheap particle board usage, and that's cool, but to me, it's a reflection of the entire build quality. Sure the unit sounds great, but now I'm wondering what other areas they skimped on and how much of that $1500 went into someone's pocket or marketing budget.

Plenty of amp companies show the insides of their products, and they're proud to do so - why should speaker companies be any different? Does one have to save up and buy Magico's to be assured of quality inside and out?

Anyway, I think I've replied enough on this topic. As I've mentioned, I do enjoy my 683s - no question there, they sound great. I'm really glad this thread was posted (thanks B_W_Guy).

[bigburner]

The stock speakers sounded great, but the ones with no glue runs? WOW. The mids were more balanced, the highs were a little crisper and while the bass tone didn't change, we all agreed that it was much faster and tighter. Overall the speaker had a more natural sound with more presence that the one full of glue runs. Definitely a great mod :B :B :B

Back in the old days when I bought my CDM9NT speakers they came with a money-back guarantee that the product came with no glue runs.

Those were the days <sigh>.

Nigel.

[Isaac]

I would not open a set of B&W's unless they had to be repaired or was planning on throwing them away. I am a huge Hi-Fi nerd but, opening a perfectly good set of B&W speakers to check for glue drips does not make much sence to me. Speakers are not rocket science even though I want to believe it is. What... the zip ties are not silver plated? Can you believe the sticker for the tweeter was put upside down? Take them back to the store and demand a refund. :B

[yourtoys7]

Wow, look at those wires!, I have a different look on speaker wires now

[wgriel]

Well, I'm no speaker designer, but I've read that there are some positive and negative properties to using particle board in speaker design. It's entirely possible that a combination of an MDF cabinet and particle board bracing is entirely appropriate in a speaker and possibly has advantages over all MDF.

In any case, the use of particle board internally wouldn't bother me in the least if the speaker sounds good. Nor would glue runs if they're not visible.

[thundercat]

Cool, thanks for posting :T

[tpirovol]

Hi BW Guy can you repost these pics?

Thanks Terry

[B_W_Guy]

sure but can i ask why?

[wgriel]

sure but can i ask why?

I bet when he opened the thread the pictures weren't visible.

That occasionally happens to me (it did when I first viewed this thread). Some time later the pictures magically appear. I don't know why this happens, but reposting won't help.

[Hdale85]

I wouldn't be surprised if B&W used particle board in most of their line. It's pretty common although MDF is certainly a much better material. MDF and Particle board are very different beasts.

[emig5m]

My B&W catalog shows the 800 series being shaped in a press with what looks like multiple thin layers making shaped plywood.

[Hdale85]

There were some B&W's we used to sell at an audio store I worked at that were supposedly carved from a solid piece of wood. Some bookshelf type speakers I believe they were of the 800 series. Pretty expensive too.

[audioqueso]

Weren't the 800 signatures handcrafted?

Why is the glue run such a big deal? The pictures you didn't see were under the PCB. I've seen under the PCB, and the soldering is flawless. But a machine probably did the soldering. However, are you more concerns with the appearance of the inside, or functionality? It's not a glob of glue. It's a streak. Globs would make me think twice since there's no care put into it. Streaks doesn't mean they didn't put care into it. It means they didn't put the time afterwards. But it doesn't do any harm at all.

[B_W_Guy]

i would think that the glue would make it stronger. the picture shows the glue run right where the bracing is meeting. so i like the fact that there is more glue rather then less. does it not make the cabinet stronger?

[tpirovol]

Hi BW_Guy,

I can seem to see the pics I tried from home and from work and cannot see them for some reason. Can anyone else see the pictures?

Thanks Terry

[tpirovol]

The cap does not look like this on the cross-over nor does the tweeter. I have the 683's and they sounds very good to my ears!

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=2281&terid=2283

also I can see the pics now not sure why it works now!
Thanks Terry

[Hammie]

IMO, the bracing doesn't need to have the same density as the out cabinet. Therefore, PB bracing is not an issue. Also, by using the PB bracing, it cuts down on the overall weight of the speaker.

[WI Rotel]

Actually, there are sound resonance reasons that MDF is the right choice for speaker building, it also won't warp like plywood can, and is denser from a sound resonance perspective I believe. Go see thomas or Jon in MP and they can confirm what I am saying probably. well, I can't say certainly, but I am pretty sure.

Absolutely right.
MDF is the premium speaker cabinet component, of course it comes in different grades. The best is the densest and the stiffest since it is the "deadest" one and thus the one less likely to color the sound.
The nice premium wood pricey speakers utilize it totally esthetic and in fact just a thin veneer. Unlike an instrument the cabinet of a speaker is not supposed to be part of the music.

[WI Rotel]

BTW I wish I could see the innards of the XT. The speakers are essentially impregnable

[WI Rotel]

Weren't the 800 signatures handcrafted?

Why is the glue run such a big deal? The pictures you didn't see were under the PCB. I've seen under the PCB, and the soldering is flawless. But a machine probably did the soldering. However, are you more concerns with the appearance of the inside, or functionality? It's not a glob of glue. It's a streak. Globs would make me think twice since there's no care put into it. Streaks doesn't mean they didn't put care into it. It means they didn't put the time afterwards. But it doesn't do any harm at all.

In general all speakers are handcrafted. here simply arent any robots for frunning wires in cabinets and such. Of course not all hands are not necessarily crafty :

[rsbx]

Hey, congratulations fro the post. I have one of these... bu there's a little problem... the right speaker has a "zziizizzz" noise (sounds like that) when plaing certain notes on piano... at 400/600hz... I doubt the fault comes from the cabinet... I think is the tweeter cable is bogging in the cabinet and causes that noise. So I want to know how do you took of the ring arround the FST in order to take the FST of the cabinet. Sorry for my bad English...


Thanks.

[Ageve]

Perhaps your tweeter is broken? I've heard a similar sound from a 805s with
a buckled dome (child vs tweeter).

About particle board being used in the 800-series, that's only true for the
older Matrix series. 800 Nautilus and newer are all made of MDF and
Plywood.

The curved part of the cabinet is made out of one piece of thick plywood.
The rest of the cabinet (baffle, top, and matrix bracing) is MDF.