Help me spend $2K USD on amplifier

[MikeCarron]

OK, I've seen the thread over and over....what amp do I get with my speakers...yatta..yatta..yatta.

Well here I go with the same question, but I need to set some constraints first. I only have about $2K USD to spend. I don't mind buying used equipment from reliable sources. I want something that will be incrementally better than the amp I currently use shown below.

Here's my current setup:

N803 mains
HTM1 Center
Rotel RSX-1058 Receiver
Carver TFM35x Amplifier

I want a new amp for the N803 speakers, since I feel like the Carver is a bit bright sounding. It doesn't sound bad, but when turned up it seems like it loses "control" of the speaker. Probably an impedance issue with the amps ability to provide current...but that's a WAG. The system is setup in a dedicated room, but it's used for both music (75%) and movies (25%).

What would you guys recommend in that price range?

[DM3000 Owner]

Bryston 4B ST

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1213748646

Or one of these:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1214115188

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1214166199

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1213927128

[iiaudio]

I agree with DM3000. You should be able to find a killer used amp under $2k.

[MikeCarron]

Thanks for the Reply

Thanks for the feedback. I have been looking on Audiogon...almost daily...doing research on what is out there and their price points. You just gotta love this obsession...er...I mean hobby. At $2K there seems to be a lot of options on the used market.

I have been looking primarily at Rotel, Classe, Krell, and McIntosh. I get the feeling that most folks think the Rotel is a bit "mid-class" for the B&W's so I may steer clear of that to be safe. It may not be an upgrade to the Carver anyway. I like the look of the Mac amps...something about those big blue meters, like staring into the eyes of a beautiful girl. . But in the end I'm leaning toward the Classe stuff.

I live in a pretty rural part of the Southeastern USA which means I don't get to demo this kind of stuff in person, so I really appreciate all your candid feedback.

Thanks,
Mike C.

[miner]

Classe and B&W mate rather well - same mother company (Rotel is a part of the same company, too). I use a Rotel RB-1092 with my B&W N804 & ASW800 sub and am happy with the combo.

[cug]

I have been looking primarily at Rotel, Classe, Krell, and McIntosh. I get the feeling that most folks think the Rotel is a bit "mid-class" for the B&W's so I may steer clear of that to be safe. It may not be an upgrade to the Carver anyway. I like the look of the Mac amps...something about those big blue meters, like staring into the eyes of a beautiful girl. .

You mean like staring her in the eye through her monstrous glass bricks? :B

But in the end I'm leaning toward the Classe stuff.

I live in a pretty rural part of the Southeastern USA which means I don't get to demo this kind of stuff in person, so I really appreciate all your candid feedback.

Thanks,
Mike C.

Classé is a pretty safe bet, but actually I doesn't sound too much different from a good Rotel. I ended up buying a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated because it sounded about the same as a Classé pre-power combo but for about 30% of the price ... there might be people here debating that, but I don't care. My ears tell me what they tell me and I believe them more than other people's ears and imagination (I got my own imagination out of the way by doing blind testing).

Btw: in the blind testing it seemed that I liked the McIntosh sound quite well, but I think they are about the ugliest thing you can place in a living room - right next to a 3 foot cheap plastic lion sculpture or so ... :B

Classé is massively overpriced in my opinion. Nevertheless I'd get one if I didn't have to care about money - just for the cool look. Rotel digital amps are GREAT. I would not get one of their old monsters (RB-1090, RB-1080) because the newer ones are just plain nicer and not that much more expensive.

If you want some great "affordable" stuff, Murano 250W mono blocks are a bold technical rip-off of the Jeff Rowland Model 201 for a very affordable price. I heard both of them and I liked the sound very much, but the Jeff Rowland is plain ridiculously priced. Even worse than Classé. And there was no way distinguishing the two in blind a/b.

Also these here:

http://www.seymourav.com/amps.asp

are quite nice. The smallest ones are not worth it, as you can get the same module in a Rotel RB-1072, but the 250W/8 Ohm mono blocks are quite nice. And they have a money back guarantee if you don't like them in the first 30 days.

Also the Musical Fidelity A5 power goes sometimes for a very good price on Audiogon and this is a great amplifier. I got the integrated because I don't need too much power headroom - I listen mostly to classic and jazz with very moderate levels. And it HAS a lot of headroom for an integrated with its 250W into 8 Ohm (and being stable down to 2 Ohm).

[RebelMan]

... there might be people here debating that, but I don't care. My ears tell me what they tell me and I believe them more than other people's ears and imagination (I got my own imagination out of the way by doing blind testing).

Then why should we be listening to you? I'm teasing of course but I think you get the message. :W

[cug]

Then why should we be listening to you? I'm teasing of course but I think you get the message. :W

You don't have to ... And actually you shouldn't - you could start questioning your setup. :B

[beden1]

You don't have to ... And actually you shouldn't - you could start questioning your setup. :B

I agree with you that it should be a purely personal listening experience that is the basis for one selecting any and all home audio equipment. But, it takes in-depth experience in listening to determine the nuances of sound.

It's a building process that takes years to appreciate the differences in the quality reproduction levels of audio equipment. That's why I am always envious of those like Kal Rubinson and RebelMan who have dedicated themselves to art of listening.

[Alaric]

right next to a 3 foot cheap plastic lion sculpture or so ...

You probably don't like my lawn flamingos' either! What if my cheap lion sculpture was plaster of Paris? :lol: Sorry , couldn't resist.

MikeCarron , after you get a nice , new amp , have you thought about treating yourself to some new cables ? The CATCables link at the top of the page will take you to the website. I promote them a lot , but I wouldn't have bought 5 pairs if I didn't like them. Definitely worth a try , and it's one of the sponsors that keeps HTG going. Ok , commercial over.


Back on topic-has anyone heard anything else about the release date of the Emotiva XPA-2 ? I'm not familiar enough with Emotiva to know if it's in the same class as any of the amps being discussed here , but it's a monster on paper.

[cug]

I agree with you that it should be a purely personal listening experience that is the basis for one selecting any and all home audio equipment. But, it takes in-depth experience in listening to determine the nuances of sound.

It's a building process that takes years to appreciate the differences in the quality reproduction levels of audio equipment. That's why I am always envious of those like Kal Rubinson and RebelMan who have dedicated themselves to art of listening.

Yeah, I know. I worked for about 13 years in the sound business, I know what I'm talking about. And I'm pretty happy I left that area ...

[MikeCarron]

Alaric,
Actually I am thinking about buying some stuff from CAT Cables. I was just looking at a digital cable for connecting my Rotel CD player to the Rotel Receiver...I'm currently just using some old AR analog cables. I am also looking at upgrading speaker cables. Any recommendations on getting a bi-wire cable versus standard for my N803's? What about the digital cable...any preferences/experiences with the two they offer?

[Smitty]

Check out the Belles 150a or a used 350a.

[RebelMan]

And actually you shouldn't - you could start questioning your setup. :B

Not likely, I've done my homework. :P And for the record, unlike their Class A/B companions which are voiced with better consistency, there is only ONE Class D amplifier from Rotel (RMB-1077) I would recommend. It's priced right for the OP too.

[cug]

Not likely, I've done my homework. :P And for the record, unlike their Class A/B companions which are voiced with better consistency, there is only ONE Class D amplifier from Rotel (RMB-1077) I would recommend. It's priced right for the OP too.

I can't agree on that one. The RB-1072 is a very good amplifier with a very good sound. Definitely better (cleaner, better freq response) than the 1080.

But again, "better" and "worse" is just a matter of taste. And a matter of perception. And a matter of imagination if you don't do double blind, what nearly nobody does.

[Alaric]

Alaric,
Actually I am thinking about buying some stuff from CAT Cables. I was just looking at a digital cable for connecting my Rotel CD player to the Rotel Receiver...I'm currently just using some old AR analog cables. I am also looking at upgrading speaker cables. Any recommendations on getting a bi-wire cable versus standard for my N803's? What about the digital cable...any preferences/experiences with the two they offer?

I prefer my Paradigms bi-wired , but I don't have any useful experience with the B & Ws in that configuration. Also , my speakers are wired "funny" internally. For me , the bass improved and got noticeably tighter.

[RebelMan]

I can't agree on that one. The RB-1072 is a very good amplifier with a very good sound. Definitely better (cleaner, better freq response) than the 1080.

I haven't witnessed anything to support this claim. Care to enlighten me sans any bias?

But again, "better" and "worse" is just a matter of taste. And a matter of perception. And a matter of imagination if you don't do double blind, what nearly nobody does...

It takes a well coordinated effort to execute an ABX test properly by both the facilitator and the subject plus a little expertise in constructing a valid critique. It's not done often because of the time and effort needed to produce reliable data with predictable consistency. I would seriously challenge your claims if you exercised these procedures with unwaivering regularity for every piece of equipment you have formally evaluated.

Better or worse is not just a matter of taste. It's a matter of measured authenticity. The results are only as "good" as the tools capturing the data and the person using them. Individual perceptions are dictated by too many outward influences to be a safe form of accountability. For instance, one's budget can alter perception very quickly because the focus is too often on finding value not quality. Furthermore, perceptions (or imaginations) even well intentioned can be wrong. One should consider their experience as the best means for guidance. I know something about auto repair but I also know my limitations and when to seek assistance.

[wettou]

http://seymourav.com/amps.asp

try these out

[Allegiance]

I haven't witnessed anything to support this claim. Care to enlighten me sans any bias?

It takes a well coordinated effort to execute an ABX test properly by both the facilitator and the subject plus a little expertise in constructing a valid critique. It's not done often because of the time and effort needed to produce reliable data with predictable consistency. I would seriously challenge your claims if you exercised these procedures with unwaivering regularity for every piece of equipment you have formally evaluated.

Better or worse is not just a matter of taste. It's a matter of measured authenticity. The results are only as "good" as the tools capturing the data and the person using them. Individual perceptions are dictated by too many outward influences to be a safe form of accountability. For instance, one's budget can alter perception very quickly because the focus is too often on finding value not quality. Furthermore, perceptions (or imaginations) even well intentioned can be wrong. One should consider their experience as the best means for guidance. I know something about auto repair but I also know my limitations and when to seek assistance.

I did a side-by-side test of a RB-1070 and a RB-1080 on a pair of 705's and I liked the RB-1070 better. :T No one will probably agree with this though...

[cug]

I haven't witnessed anything to support this claim. Care to enlighten me sans any bias?

I did some comparison with these two (non-controlled environment) and the RB-1072 sounded cleaner in the high frequencies for me and definitely didn't fade out in the bass section what the RB-1080 seemed to have done in the setup used for this test (B&W 802D, Rotel RCD-1072 player).

It takes a well coordinated effort to execute an ABX test properly by both the facilitator and the subject plus a little expertise in constructing a valid critique. It's not done often because of the time and effort needed to produce reliable data with predictable consistency. I would seriously challenge your claims if you exercised these procedures with unwaivering regularity for every piece of equipment you have formally evaluated.

Yep, it's a hell of a work and I don't claim to have done it for everything I evaluate, but at least I have done it for everything I bought - and I wasn't fooled by the volume difference between balanced and unbalanced output of two players ...

Better or worse is not just a matter of taste.

As soon as you cross a certain threshold, it is. With speakers this threshold is pretty high (more than I want to spent), with electronics it is lower than ANYONE here wants to admit, me included.

Individual perceptions are dictated by too many outward influences to be a safe form of accountability. For instance, one's budget can alter perception very quickly because the focus is too often on finding value not quality.

This is true. As is the other way around. There are too many people on the earth for which is expensive == good. Especially in "high end audio".

[SPACEMANRICK]

Cug, have you had a chance to thoroughly evaluate your new Musical Fidelity A5 integrated amplifier and CD player? Was it worth the money, and keeping this on topic, would you spend the $2,000 on this amplifier all over again? Is there any significant difference between the A5 amp and the new A5.5 amp?

Also speaking of electronics and speakers, I asked my B&W retailer if the Classe CAP2100 amplifier was enough to run the 802D speakers in a normal size room......he laughed at me and emphatically said no way. He said most people that buy the 802D speakers spend about $50,000 on their speakers and electronics and cables :E . I do agree with Cug that past a certain point the differences between electronics is very small and almost non existant and speakers are the most important.

The retailer even told me that his B&W 684 speaker and Rotel amplifier and Rotel CD player in his showroom would sound better than my B&W 804S and Denon 3805 receiver and CD player. He said the biggest impact on sound was the CD player followed by the amp and then the speakers. Well I gave his B&W 684 speaker a good listen over 3 or 4 songs and let me tell you the difference between the 2 systems was huge..........only the 804'S with Denon equipment sounded much better than the 684's and Rotel :T

[cug]

Cug, have you had a chance to thoroughly evaluate your new Musical Fidelity A5 integrated amplifier and CD player? Was it worth the money, and keeping this on topic, would you spend the $2,000 on this amplifier all over again? Is there any significant difference between the A5 amp and the new A5.5 amp?

We are pretty happy with the components but haven't had a chance to do a full evaluation here at home. There are only some preliminary results:

- The A5 integrated amplifier is a nice amp and has lots of power. Nice build quality, but the speaker terminals could be better (they look/are cheap).

- The A5 CD player sounds really different from my Rotel RCD-1072 and I like the sound of it better. The differences are not "night and day" but big enough to hear them without leveling both CD players and it's pretty clear that it's not a volume difference. I'm still going to do a better evaluation on that. But I need the time which I don't have at the moment.

- The A5 CD player brought more "audible value" to my system than I anticipated. And definitely more than the amplifier.

- Compared to Rotel and Classé equipment, I can only say that the amplifiers sound all pretty similar at my listening volumes (which are not that high). I wanted a bit more power than the RA-1062 and was evaluating the A5, the CAP-2100, and a Rotel RC-1082, RB-1072 (or RB-1080) combination. They all sound pretty much the same with VERY, VERY small differences. Barely audible, only in direct comparison. For that reason I bought the A5 for the best value. The CAP-2100 was plain too expensive for what it did - it's best feature was the programmable volume knob and the programmable display.

- I have not compared the A5 to the A5.5.

- I've spent 1700,- CAD for the A5 and it wasn't a super cheap deal for what I got as I only got "more power" without too much of a sound difference. It would have been better getting that amplifier in the first place instead of the RA-1062, but as we are going to place the Rotel in the second room, it was okay.

I think if you compare the A5.5 with the Rotel RC-1082/RB-1072 combination, which is slightly less in retail price than the A5 I'd probably say the Rotel stuff is the better value for the money. You just get more. Not much sound difference, but the stuff looks better, has more features, a bit less power (but you can get the RB-1ß80 if you need more), a more modern concept, less idle power consumption, and so on. Both the integrated and the Rotel combo retail for around 2500 USD. So, if I'd have to pay retail, I'd get the Rotel. The CAP-2100 is, in my opinion a very nice amplifier that is ridiculously overpriced. If I had the money and wouldn't mind spending 2000 dollar more or less I'd still get it for the looks and the programmable behaviour of the volume knob ... but if I had the money to do that, I'd probably going with separates, just because it's cooler ...

CD player: I don't think the difference in sound between the RCD-1072 and the A5 is worth the difference in retail (more than 1600), but as I paid only 1600 total it was for me, as I actually like the sound better. But again you might get more from the Rotel in terms of features and it still sounds pretty good.

So, I'd say for the 1700/1600 price I paid for the MF components it was worth it. If I had to pay retail, I'd still be on Rotel. If I had won the lottery and got a few millions I'd get Classé pre/power just because they look so cool together with some 800D ... So I'd probably end up with the same system RebelMan has, but not with my normal salary ... :B

Also speaking of electronics and speakers, I asked my B&W retailer if the Classe CAP2100 amplifier was enough to run the 802D speakers in a normal size room......he laughed at me and emphatically said no way. He said most people that buy the 802D speakers spend about $50,000 on their speakers and electronics and cables :E . I do agree with Cug that past a certain point the differences between electronics is very small and almost non existant and speakers are the most important.

The retailer even told me that his B&W 684 speaker and Rotel amplifier and Rotel CD player in his showroom would sound better than my B&W 804S and Denon 3805 receiver and CD player. He said the biggest impact on sound was the CD player followed by the amp and then the speakers. Well I gave his B&W 684 speaker a good listen over 3 or 4 songs and let me tell you the difference between the 2 systems was huge..........only the 804'S with Denon equipment sounded much better than the 684's and Rotel :T

Sales talk ...

[wgriel]

I did a side-by-side test of a RB-1070 and a RB-1080 on a pair of 705's and I liked the RB-1070 better. :T No one will probably agree with this though...

Well I haven't done the comparison, but at my local audio shop I was told that they prefer the sound of the 1070 to the 1080 and suggested that I would probably like the cheaper amp with my 703s. So there are a couple of people who agree with you

I'll listen for myself to decide, but generally their advice has been pretty spot on for me.

[wettou]

Also speaking of electronics and speakers, I asked my B&W retailer if the Classe CAP2100 amplifier was enough to run the 802D speakers in a normal size room......he laughed :rofl: at me and emphatically said no way.

Your dealer might be trying to get you in the bag and rob your bank account!! :P

He said most people that buy the 802D speakers spend about $50,000 on their speakers and electronics and cables

I demonstrated the 802D with the CA-2100 and it sounded very nice in a 12x12x9 room. I then tried them with CA-5200 and it is true that they opened up nicely, I also tried the CA-M400 and sure they sounded a bit better but not much compared to the CA-5200. I also tried Electrocompaniet Nemo 600 and yes that was amazing!

By the way if you buy multiple things you can negotiate a great price -20% easy, think their margins are 50 points :T

Make sure you work with an honest dealer rather than someone who is pushing boxes!!

[Antus]

well, seems my dealer are more on the honest side. he doesn't suggest buying super expensive cable and think they are a waste of money (even though he carry some of those) he suggested that if you are going to spend few thousands dollars on cables, you should move up the line with speakers first. unless you are already buying the top of the line model (like 800D) spending few thousands on cable start to make sense.

considering Abbey Road's system as "reference system" for B&W. for 2 channels, you are looking at 800D ($23000) with 4 CM400 ($20000) i don't believe 802D should spend $50000 on electronics.

[wettou]

considering Abbey Road's system as "reference system" for B&W. for 2 channels, you are looking at 800D ($23000) with 4 CM400 ($20000) i don't believe 802D should spend $50000 on electronics.

Agreed, on top of this I can assure you that Abbey Road got major deal discount at least 50% off suggested retail so you can cut that amount in half.

I would say that sending about the same amount on electronics is fair, beyond that is lunacy unless you are super rich or live alone and have nothing else to do with your cash!!!

[MikeCarron]

OK, I've been looking on Audiogon and EBAY until I've totally confused myself. Way too many options here. A few things popped into my head...looking for good candid feedback.

(1) What are the thoughts on the Rotel RB-1070 in bridged mode (370W)? I was thinking I could get three of these and use them bridged for my N803's and HTM1 center and keep it around the $2k mark.

(2) Thoughts on the Classe CAV-151 six channel amp bridged to three channel mode to do the same as above.

(3) Thoughts on the Sunfire amplifiers? Is this really any better than my Carver TFM-35x?

(4) I've ruled out the McIntosh, Levinson, PASS, and Krell stuff...it's just too expensive for my budget right now.

(5) finally...are the new digital amps Bel Canto, Seymour, Rotel really worth the money?

I know this is a lot of questions, but I know you guys are up to the task...thanks for the time and consideration.