Building $5k system for B&W 804s

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Ausfart
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2008
    • 11

    Building $5k system for B&W 804s

    I have Nautilus 804s, some Polk outdoor patio speakers on a zone 2, a Harmon Kardon DVD/CD/SACD player, Charter digital cable (not HD), a VCR, IPOD/dock and 30-inch standard tube TV. My 75 Watt, 7.1 channel Harmon Kardon AV 635 receiver will be removed from service due to a processor malfunction. Listening room is about 12x20 feet with speakers along the wide wall facing a 9-foot leather couch and 6-foot leather coffee table, on a wood laminate/concrete slab floor mostly covered by large area rug, with 12 feet of filled book shelves along one short end of the room. I want a major upgrade in high-fidelity stereo sound for music and for movies. Musical taste includes bluegrass, jazz, classical and rock. I have $5,000 to spend.

    My favorite shop recommends:

    Rotel RB 1080 stereo amp (200 watts, 2 channels) ($999);
    Rotel RC-1082 stereo preamp ($1199);
    Rotel RCD 1072 HDCD player ($699);
    Transparency MusicLink Plus interconnects pr. 1 mtr. ($360);
    Transparency MusicWave Plus speaker cables par. 12' ($1010); and
    Audio Authority 4x1 component video autoselector 1154A ($239).

    Shops says above maximizes hi-fidelity music sound. They say analog stereo simplicity of the above set-up will sound significantly better for music than anything at $5k cost involving multi-channel with video switching. I like the promise of a spine tingling musical sound improvement over the old HK set-up but do not like the need for separate video switching device and lack of am/fm tuner.

    I wonder if a surround sound receiver (like Rotel RSX 1067) or pre/pro (like Rotel RSP 1069) would not sound equally good for stereo music while simplifying video switching for the above components, giving me am/fm and allowing a simpler future addition of HD TV and surround speakers. If the stereo sound from the recommended Rotel components were sufficiently sweet, my interest in a potential future surround speaker set-up might wane. Even if I never go to surround speakers, I might in the future add a subwoofer to improve deep bass for music and movie effects.

    If separate stereo amplifier and stereo preamp would deliver clearly better musical sound than the surround receiver or pre/pro approach, what do people think about the Rotel components my shop recommends versus similar components from Anthem (MCA20 applifier [225 w/2ch]) and TLP1 pre/pro/tuner or AVM30 pre/pro/tuner). Any other recipe for a $5K system to run B&W 804s for music?

    Does $1000 for the Transparancy 12-foot speaker cables and another $360 for the Transparancy interconnects make sense? I am willing to believe that cable choice at these prices can make a difference.

    Would dropping the $699 Rotel CD player and just continuing to use my Harmon Kardon DVD 47 player degrade the sound audibly? If not, I could throw the $699 at another part of this system.

    My long-distance reference is my father's late 1990s all-Mcintosh 150 w/ch ss receiver and CD system driving some giant Italian floor standers. I like the idea of McIntosh but don't think I can afford anything like that to run my 804s.

    Your thoughts much appreciated.
  • Briz vegas
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1199

    #2


    That would leave over 2 grand for your CD player and cables.
    Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
    Siamese :evil: :twisted:

    Comment

    • GregLett
      Senior Member
      • May 2005
      • 753

      #3
      I like the full Rotel combo - the cables. I think the cables are way over the top.
      If McIntosh is your first love go for what Briz recommend. If you go that Route I would look for other choices in a CD player. My experience with the 1072 is that it mates best with a Rotel pre.
      Greg

      Comment

      • akhter
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2005
        • 266

        #4
        if u must spend on fancy cables, don't spend more than $300-$400 total on cables--generally not more than 10% of the cost of the the components they are hooked up to....my 2c.

        i would go for a full arcam FMJ setup:

        arcam cd36 2000
        arcam c31 pre 1600
        arcam p35 1800

        total list is 5400 my dealer usually gives me 10% off so does urs i would assume so under 5000. If you must get fancy cables swap out the cd36 for cd192 and save $500.

        i compared this to a rotel setup and this is a step up imho. the rotel cd player is quite good and will make a difference if u do go the rotel route. what will probably not make much of a difference are the way over the top cables as long as u get fairly ok ones (even monster cables will do, personally i prefer middle of the line kimbers).

        Comment

        • cug
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2008
          • 286

          #5
          Originally posted by Ausfart
          Does $1000 for the Transparancy 12-foot speaker cables and another $360 for the Transparancy interconnects make sense? I am willing to believe that cable choice at these prices can make a difference.
          Pfff ... Pay for good build quality (e.g. some nice copper CAT Cables) and that's it.

          Maybe read this:



          And get a set of good coat hangers instead of paying a fortune for the cables.

          Comment

          • Briz vegas
            Super Senior Member
            • Mar 2005
            • 1199

            #6
            Maybe we should stick with recommending the electronics given our forum sponsors business is cables. The only advice I would give is listen to a few cable options yourself. I believe Cat allows you to home demo their cables and while doing so also look at power cords as doing one without the other makes no sense in my personal experience over the past few months. I would go for cheaper cables but invest what you saved into power cords - but please try at home as your power into your house and your system will determine what results you get. The only measuring device of any value is your ears while sitting in your listening chair - don't trust me or anyone else for that matter on this issue.
            Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
            Siamese :evil: :twisted:

            Comment

            • rodH
              Member
              • Aug 2002
              • 71

              #7
              WOW, waaaaaaaaay to much in cables.

              I have about $500 speaker cables and use B&W 804, Mac MX132 preamp and MC150 and MC7205 amps.

              Here is a little FYI: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

              Comment

              • Ausfart
                Junior Member
                • Mar 2008
                • 11

                #8
                Jolida JD 1000RC tube integrated amp?

                First, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond to my first post. Very helpful, especially re views on cable overkill.

                Second, how do you think my N804s would sound with the current Jolida 100 wpc stereo integrated tube amp? That idea arose from the repair shop who declared by Harman Kardon AVR 635 DOA. They suggested buying a 60 wpc Jolida 502B tube integrated, upgrading the tubes and doing a standard $500 modification (total cost about $1500). I found the 100 wpc Jolida on mfgr website and read forum entries on this unit, the 502B, mods, etc.

                I would route the Rotel or similar CD player straight into the Jolida. For the price of the Rotel analog stereo preamp recommended by my hifi shop, I could buy mid-priced AV receiver and route all my AV sources (DVD player, VCR, cable, playstation and ipod) through that, with output routed to the Jolida's second input. The AV receiver would provide the convenience remote controlled video/audio switching from all those sources and also provide the power to drive my outdoor speakers.

                I am a little scared of tubes. First, I have kids (ages 8+), and the amp will be physically accessible to them. So, the exposed tubes of the 502B seem like a bad idea. The 1000RC's tubes are safe inside a closed metal box.

                Second, I wonder about ongoing care and maintenance duties for tubes. Once I get this thing set up, I don't want to have to mess with it very few months.

                Third, I understand that the THD, background noise and other technical specs from the Jolida compare poorly to the specs on the Rotel solid state gear and probably any decent SS. However, I have heard tube gear (not this Jolida) and generally like the warm sound, holographic soundstage and detailed, smooth midrange and treble. I am thinking that the 100 wpc Jolida might make the N804s sound just gorgeous.

                Any thoughts about the preceding approach?

                Comment

                • cug
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2008
                  • 286

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ausfart
                  Third, I understand that the THD, background noise and other technical specs from the Jolida compare poorly to the specs on the Rotel solid state gear and probably any decent SS. However, I have heard tube gear (not this Jolida) and generally like the warm sound, holographic soundstage and detailed, smooth midrange and treble. I am thinking that the 100 wpc Jolida might make the N804s sound just gorgeous.
                  I can only say that from my personal perspective:

                  Tube amps have some technical "features" (lets call them features because what is just a lack of clear sound reproduction for me, is "smoother sound" for others) which make them sound "warm".

                  They are not as controlled and powerful as solid state amps, often fade out high and very low frequencies and are just not as "dynamic", meaning, they often can't provide the current for demanding speakers (and 804S are not the easiest speakers on earth).

                  Personally I'd never buy a tube amp, because I don't like their tampering with the sound (horrible frequency response). But that's my personal taste.

                  Maybe you are interested in some background info:



                  Why, in loudspeaker reviews, is impedance measured (assuming that the magazine in question bothers to measure anything)? Generally, for one principal reason only: to establish whether the speaker presents an "easy" or a "difficult" load to its partnering amplifier. In the design context, much more information can be extracted from a graph of speaker impedance vs frequency—such as details of the bass alignment, and indications of internal or structural resonances that can be difficult to identify by acoustical measurements.


                  I think all of the links above provide some interesting information. For me, the conclusion is, that I will buy an amplifier for my 804S that can provide enough current in every situation I'll throw at it. Normally a 2x100W amp should be okay for my usage (music only), but I'd prefer to get something with 250WPC into 8 Ohm and stable down to 2 Ohms. I like a good frequency response so I get the reproduction as clean as possible and not altered by some technical deficiency of the amp.

                  At the moment I'm mainly looking at ICE power driven amplifiers (Rotel RB-1072, RB-1092; Murano P-500S; Seymor ICE Block 5001) or a used (and therefore affordable) Classé CA-2100 or CA-2200.

                  Why I not look at McIntosh? Because I think they are ugly like hell. Why not Krell? Because I don't like them (just personal indifference).

                  Comment

                  • GregLett
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2005
                    • 753

                    #10
                    Tubes are just fine. The one thing to note with tube amps is that a good tube amp will cost you more than a comparable solid state amp.
                    There are many tube amps out there that will drive your 804's just fine, the Jolida included. I have lived with tube amps from Cary and Atma- sphere, and solid state amps from Rote, Classe, Krell and Monarcha audio. There is nothing deficient about a tube amp in general, just like SS amps it all comes down to price point, and the design. There are many folks who have tube amps for years
                    without any trouble, so if you like the "warm sound, holographic soundstage and detailed, smooth midrange and treble" of tube amps.. go for it! forget about all the measurements and trust your ears.
                    Greg

                    Comment

                    • Briz vegas
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 1199

                      #11
                      One mans struggle with tubes and 804S, but all ended well.



                      I have heard both modest and expensive tube systems that sound amazingly good. They were not B&W based so I cannot comment on that aspect but it seems from the thread above that I have underestimated the power of the tube to drive the 804.

                      I say get a hold of a demo tube amp and tell us how you go!
                      Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                      Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                      Comment

                      • Ausfart
                        Junior Member
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 11

                        #12
                        One man's struggle

                        Thank you for the thoughtful response to my Jolida idea. That forum threat about the 89-year-old man trying to make his tube-driven N804s sound right was quite interesting.

                        What do folks think about Jolida, and particularly about their 100 wpc integrated model? I am worried it might be tempermental, but that's not based on anything I've read--just me growing up in a solid state world and seeing tubes as a bit mysterious.

                        Comment

                        • Ausfart
                          Junior Member
                          • Mar 2008
                          • 11

                          #13
                          Also

                          meant "thread," not threat.

                          Also, what is tube "biasing," and how often must one do it?

                          Comment

                          • Chris D
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Dec 2000
                            • 16877

                            #14
                            Ausfart, I usually don't come visit into the B&W sub-forum, (I don't own any) but I noticed your user name listed... LOVE the name. Great choice!

                            (I lived there for 4 years)
                            CHRIS

                            Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                            - Pleasantville

                            Comment

                            • Briz vegas
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 1199

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ausfart
                              meant "thread," not threat.

                              Also, what is tube "biasing," and how often must one do it?
                              er .........gees I dunno really, but some tube amps have auto bias and on other tube amps you have to twiddle a knob or a screw until a light comes on and it effects the sound. Tube rolling is wiggling the things to polish the contacts, although I believe it also refers to the preoccupation of mucking about swapping in different tubes when you should be enjoying your music and discussing your favourite musicians technique on the guitar fret board.

                              Hey I only had tubes in my now traded CJ pre-amp and they did not need biasing.
                              Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                              Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                              Comment

                              • Ausfart
                                Junior Member
                                • Mar 2008
                                • 11

                                #16
                                How about Mac tubes?

                                I realize that I'm all over the place and appreciate everyone's willingness to continue providing input.

                                What do you think about driving my N804s (the old ones without diamond tweeters) with a used McIntosh MA2275 integrated tube amp with 75 w/2 channels?

                                My old Harmon Kardon 7-channel receiver had 75 watts and that seemed like plenty for my small room and listening habits.

                                75 modern McIntosh tube watts sounds intriguing. I really love music with strong female vocals, like Alison Kraus, Emmy Lou Harris, etc. From what I've heard, tubes are terrific for mid-range. I'd think my 804s, with the Kevlar mid-range, would sound fantastic.

                                In the future, if I found the base punch a little lacking, I could add a ss McIntosh amp and run the 804s woofers off that (they are set up for biwiring).

                                Thoughts?

                                Comment

                                • DM3000 Owner
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jun 2006
                                  • 475

                                  #17
                                  I borrowed a Jolida 1000 from a friedn and drove my DM3000's with it for a few months. Very nice sounding amp. I had tubes in the past and swore them off. The Jolida was a nice experiance, but I still prefer SS with B&W.

                                  Here is a great combo:

                                  CD Pre:



                                  Nice matching amp:



                                  Here in an A# amp for a few hundred less:



                                  I have a CD Pre in my office system and MF A308 pre and CD player with an A3.24 dac for music server in my main system with N801's. The MF Equipment is very well built (huge economy of scale going on here - they use the same parts for many different products). The CD pre has a preamp, DAC and CD player in one box.

                                  I lent a friend (a Tube guy) my DAC and he immediately went out and bought a MF Tri Vista DAC. I then lent him my premap and he really liked it. He considered sellign his tube preamp (which was actually brighter) and buying a MF preamp.

                                  Comment

                                  • Ausfart
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Mar 2008
                                    • 11

                                    #18
                                    I'm going with McIntosh

                                    Will start with the MC252 solid state amp worth 250w/ch x 2. Am debating which preamp to get but focused on C45, C46, C220 and C2200. The first two are solid state and the last two are tube. After the pre, I will get a cd player and have no idea whether to go Mac or something else. Anyone with experience and opinions about these options?

                                    Thanks.

                                    Comment

                                    • Horacio
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jan 2005
                                      • 142

                                      #19
                                      Ausfart,

                                      Interestingly enough, I'm going thru similar decisions. I run my 804s with Rotel RB-1080 + RC-1080 + RCD-1072 and I'm looking to improve it. I auditioned the 804s with an all-Mac stereo system and was blown away. Couldn't believe I was listening at the same speakers I had at home! The amp was MC275, though, and even though I wanted to audition the 252 the dealer didn't have it.

                                      I see you decided for the 252. Can I ask you why? Did you audition the 275?

                                      Horacio

                                      Comment

                                      • Ausfart
                                        Junior Member
                                        • Mar 2008
                                        • 11

                                        #20
                                        Why I went w/McIntosh MC252

                                        I found a brand new MC252 for $3k and decided that 250 watts of Mac solid state power probably was the best long-term investment. The 75 watt Mc tube amp might sound great in my current room, but we're headed for a larger home in the next year or two and I don't want to have to buy another amp. I've heard the 252 on 804s (don't remember the pre) and it sounded wonderful. I figured for $3k, I couldn't really go wrong on a brand new 250 watt Mac ss amp.

                                        Now I have to pick a preamp. I am focused on Mac and considering C45, C46, C220 and C2200. That latter two are tube-based. Any suggestions?

                                        After the preamp, I will pick a cd player. Have no idea where I'll go there. Many have suggested the Rega Apollo, which seems to be available for $1K. Only issue there is that I think it is a top-loader, and I might need front-facing tray style to fit in the forthcoming component/TV cabinet/stand.

                                        Comment

                                        • Tommy
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2006
                                          • 110

                                          #21
                                          I think you should be able to find good deals on the C2200 because they are replaced by the C2300 recently. Tube pre and SS power should be good! However, I also heard that McIntosh SS pre and SS poweramp have great synergy.

                                          BTW, excellent choice and deal on the MC252. They are 5K new.

                                          Comment

                                          • Ausfart
                                            Junior Member
                                            • Mar 2008
                                            • 11

                                            #22
                                            Found a McIntosh C2200 preamp

                                            on A'gon. Was offered by an East Coast dealer who was turning over this floor model in favor of the newer C2300. Cannot wait to connect the C2200 pre and MC 252 amp to my N804s! The source will be my existing HK 47 DVD/CD/SACD player, which may fall short of the other links in this system. Will replace that next and would appreciate suggestions for players costing around $1K (new or used).

                                            Comment

                                            • akhter
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jun 2005
                                              • 266

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Ausfart
                                              on A'gon. Was offered by an East Coast dealer who was turning over this floor model in favor of the newer C2300. Cannot wait to connect the C2200 pre and MC 252 amp to my N804s! The source will be my existing HK 47 DVD/CD/SACD player, which may fall short of the other links in this system. Will replace that next and would appreciate suggestions for players costing around $1K (new or used).
                                              good call on the mac setup--very few people will find fault with that setup. since you will have 2 beautiful mac pieces, you should really consider a mac CD player. the mcd201 or mvp861 should be easy to find at a decent price as the new mcd301 is out

                                              Then again, i am biased about the look of mac gear!

                                              Comment

                                              • Tommy
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Dec 2006
                                                • 110

                                                #24
                                                Ausfart, congrats on the combo. You will love it, no doubt!

                                                Comment

                                                • Ausfart
                                                  Junior Member
                                                  • Mar 2008
                                                  • 11

                                                  #25
                                                  Chris, thanks for dropping in to say hi. "Ausfart" signs put a smile on my juvenile face, and my children's faces, as we enjoyed a couple weeks in Germany last summer. Stayed in a Garmisch chalet for a week and a 16th century manor house in Thuringia for another week, before participating in a family wedding at a palace near Coburg. We have family there, so it's easy to love Germany. Feel fortunate to have had that terrific experience last summer.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • bigburner
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • May 2005
                                                    • 2649

                                                    #26
                                                    Commiserations Ausfart. Now you may never get to experience the magnificence of the RC-1082 / RB-1080 combination.

                                                    Nigel.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Ausfart
                                                      Junior Member
                                                      • Mar 2008
                                                      • 11

                                                      #27
                                                      oh my

                                                      The aesthetics of Mcintosh is deeply sweet. Smooth heavy knobs, thick glass and blue vu. I nearly broke my back moving the mc252 from my car into the house. Heavvvyyyy. The C2200 surprising heft. Those tubes and solid Mac chassis, I guess. I have 10-guage blue collar speaker wire with dual spades and equivalent interconnects and cannot wait to connect, plug in and play.

                                                      Comment

                                                      Working...
                                                      Searching...Please wait.
                                                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                                                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                      An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                                                      Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                      An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                                                      There are no results that meet this criteria.
                                                      Search Result for "|||"