New to home cinema - thoughts on my B&W plans?

[Pace3000]

Hi all,

I've been planning to get my home cinema setup started for quite some time, and now got the cash ready. I've been recommended the following setup by my local specialist (Hifi Corner) in Glasgow (UK):

• Arcam AVR280 Receiver
• 2 * B&W 683 (front left/right)
• 1 * B&W HTM61 (centre)
• 2 * B&W 685 (rear)
• REL Quake (sub)

Now I'm sure that'll be good but, before I audition, I wanted to bounce my ideas off some well-versed people (and you seem really well versed )!

The best I've had before is a pair of Gale Gold Monitor MK2s, so I know that I'm making a big jump, but wondering if I should perhaps make a smaller or even a bigger jump. As a buyer, I prefer to invest in items that won't need upgraded - so this system will eventually be complemented with a 1080p display and probably a Blu-Ray player, and I don't want to have to replace any equipment (I understand the Arcam receiver will have a firmware released to support such toys).

So, to try and target the discussion, if you were to upgrade one item from the above list, what would it be? Or, if one item is too good for the rest, which is it?

Thanks in advance,

Paul.

Edit: I just saw the main forum list (not just the specialty section), so I'm going to review the home theatre noobs forum. If I'm set on B&W speakers, can this thread stay here?
Edit 2: Adding the specialist's name

[akhter]

Good call on the Arcam 280--I will go very well with B&W. The package is very reasonable and you will not be dissapointed. For a bit more $$ you can also look at the B&W CM series, which will also work well with the Arcam.

[jack667]

CM series is good but not necessarily better than the 600. Just different. As discussed previously on this forum, the CM series seems to have a slightly better tweeter, where as the general feeling is the 683 has less colouration, better soundstaging and far better bass.

Your best bet is to audition B&Ws 700 series (and CM), or if you really want to spend money, look at the 800 series (804S in your case).

I think that's a very good set up that will last you a long time though.

[angelface]

Interesting - I've heard the 683's and I was very impressed. Apparently
you can place them relatively near the walls (around 0.5 metres).

How big is your room?

My two big questions are the ARCAM and the rear speakers.

Do you want good stereo? If so I would look elsewhere although ARCAM are
meant to better than a lot of the Japanese makes. I know that a NAD AV or an Audiolab AV pre-amp would add to your budget but they will sound much better. A budget alternative is a CYrus AV master 8.0 but it doesn't do video
switching and it doesn't support the latest HD audio formats. All of these solutions will require power amps.

I would also consider the DS3's instead of the 685's unless you've got a big room as most people (but not all) think that dipole speakers are better for surround.

[dknightd]

I'm no theatre expert, but it looks like a well balanced system to me. Certainly you should listen to alternatives, but your dealer recommendation looks solid to me.

[Pace3000]

angelface:

My room is 19 feet (5.8 metres) by 11 feet 6 inches (3.5 metres) - see attachment: LCD TV on the long wall (black); speakers shown in red; and seating shown in blue. I don't fully understand the intricacies of speaker placement, so placing them half a metre from the wall is something that I wouldn't have done until you mentioned it. I will be moving house at some point, so a speaker setup that can scale to a bigger (wider) room is a consideration.

Stereo is not the biggest concern, although I still want it to be far better than £150/$300 systems from Sony/Panasonic! Once I move into this 'perfect' house I should have a separate stereo room too

All:

The budget is not rigid - but I don't want to have a system that cost thousands and will not do surround from Blu-ray.

As an aside, could I add a pre-amp in the future to help with the bigger room? Would it be wasted at the moment?

Thanks for the comments.

[RebelMan]

My two big questions are the ARCAM and the rear speakers.

Agreed. I am not a fan of the dry and uninspiring mix between ARCAM and B&W. No offense to those that do, therefore, I second the NAD recommendation. I also agree that a pair of bipolar/dipolar surround speakers would suit your room arrangement best given the proximity of your couch to the wall. Having surrounds aimed at your or near your ear is a poor implemention. Monopoles in this regard will fail to create a convincing soundfield behind and around you when your back is up against the wall.

[Pace3000]

So, my receiver choices are now:

• Arcam AVR280
• NAD T765

Speakers:

• 683 front - with HTM61, DS3 surrounds, REL Quake
• 703 front - with(?) HTM7, DS7 surrounds, REL Quake

I don't know how far my dealer's patience stretches, but I'd like to audition a couple of amps/speaker combos. The 703 is a big jump in cost though (£1000/$2000) - would that money be better spent on upgrading the amp (NAD T785)?

I should be auditioning this weekend, and quite looking forward to it!

Thanks again.

[Pace3000]

Forgot to ask, what should I be looking for when I audition the Arcam against the NAD - i.e. in what way is the Arcam 'dry'?

[nicky]

I'm not a fan of Arcam as well like rebelman...although I only have the 703 vs rebelmans awesome 800s.

But you really shouldn't go in and audition for a receiver with a predetermined mind set of what other people's subjective opinions are.

Some may say they don't like Arcam (like me) or some may say other things like Arcam is dry but there are also people who will disagree, etc, etc.

Both NAD and Arcam are reputable brands. Try to go in without a set mind set or preconceived opinions about what is the best because there isn't a brand that is the best for everyone.

One of the joys of auditioning is listening for yourself and making your own opinions of what you like and dislike. And if you have a good dealer, tell them what you liked or disliked and they can help you put that into audio terms like "dry", etc, etc. The dangers of going in with preconceived opinions are that you won't be as objective and really listen with your ears but be influenced by some other person's opinion...and don't forget to audition other brands as well. There are a lot of good receivers out there other than NAD or Arcam. And if you trust your dealer, friends, etc, than of course take their advisement and opinions into consideration, but it's ultimately going to depend on what you think sounds the best. As a personal example, my friend who is an expert loves Martin Logans and has an awesome system and advised me how great they were, which they are, but after a lot, a lot of listening, I loved the sound of B&W and went with that and it's the same with receivers as well as with all audio equipment

Just something a wise person once told me when I 1st got into this, which after many years of my own experience really agree with.

[hifiguymi]

If it comes down to a better receiver or jumping up to the 700 Series, then get a better receiver. The 700 Series is better than the 600 Series (although the new 600 Series gives the 700 Series a run for it's money) a better receiver (or separates) will get more out of the 600 Series than vice versa.

As far as rear speakers go, I agree with RebelMan. You should look at the DS3 mounted on the rear wall. If you do go with a pair of 685's on stands, try pointing them at the rear wall (on an angle towards the listening area) to diffuse the sound field. I have done that in a couple of situations with pretty good results. The speakers will stick out from the wall when you do that so keep that in mind.

As far as receivers go, I'd listen to a couple before you decide. I don't have much experience with Arcam or NAD (I'm a Rotel dealer), but they both have great reputations. Best of luck and let us know what you decide.

Eric

[angelface]

One thing to bear in mind with the speakers is what are you using for a screen.

If you have a TV on a AV rack with the centre speaker on the shelf underneath, the 700 series centre has a tweeter on the top which needs a deep shelf. This put me off
the 700 series for home cinema as my rack isn't big enough and the television is already a bit too high.

Not a problem with a porojector screen or a flat screen on the wall though.

[ToddD]

If it comes down to a better receiver or jumping up to the 700 Series, then get a better receiver.
Eric

Eric- One thing I love about this hobby of ours (and I know that you're lucky enough to have it be your profession as well) is that we all have our own viewpoints about how things should be done. With that in mind, let me say ( and I of course mean no disrespect by saying this) that in my 30 + years of being involved in this Field, I have not ever heard anyone give this advice.
Over the years I have heard that one should ALWAYS get the best speakers that one can afford. With this in mind I'd like to suggest this as a plan that might work well here for our friend Pace3000...


Get the 700's now and go with the NAD that you can afford.( Try and make sure it has preamp outs...You'll see why soon) Keep Saving!

Take those savings you've built up and buy yourself a good AMP....I'd get a Rotel myself. That's why you wanted the preamp outs! Keep Saving

Take these savings and go get yourself a Pre-amp to replace the NAD.
Now you have the better speakers and you also have the better electronics and you got to enjoy your system as you saved up to make it better..

[Pace3000]

No real progress made - my supplier was shut today, although I did pop into a rival store (Sevenoaks S&V) yesterday. That was quite an experience - they demonstrated a Onkyo SR605 with Monitor Audio RS6 speakers and it was good, with the Onkyo also delivering the HD audio format benefits for such discs. I asked about getting some B&W 600s to listen to though, and while he did show some knowledge that they hadn't been run in yet, he said they're not attractive because you can see the vinyl joins and the B&W logo is on the right, so it's not symmetrical with two speakers...

I think they must be on a good deal for Monitor Audio, as that's what my friend got when he went there. They are good speakers, but I wanted to hear my options!

Todd:

I appreciate that, although I don't plan on replacing items as I save up more. I've been wanting this since I got my own place (3 years now), and now I want the best system possible. If I hear some 805Ss with a amp/pre-amp setup and I love it, I'll stretch the budget to match (the home cinema is competing with my new car for funds ). Say for a 700 series setup, what kind of system and cost are you looking at for suitable amp/pre-amp?

angelface:

I've been asking my girlfriend for advice on the rack, got a few brochures - it's hard work! I would like wood, but that's because I've currently got carpet, so what wood? What speaker finish? What about when I move house? Not looking for answers to all that, just ranting :twisted:

nicky/Eric/all:

Thanks for comments - free beer/other if you're ever in Glasgow!

I was bad enough just looking at all these lovely pictures of speakers, after my demo with the Monitor Audio (King Kong on HDDVD and some music) has got me a taste - I'm desperate to get it sorted. Might even take a day off this week to get in and audition them all!

[Briz vegas]

delete

[Briz vegas]

he said they're not attractive because you can see the vinyl joins and the B&W logo is on the right, so it's not symmetrical with two speakers...

...........(the home cinema is competing with my new car for funds ).

I love that bit about them not being attractive. That dealers credibility just took a nose dive. He's going for the emotional angle to push you to another product.

The second part is a worry. Everyone knows that 800 series and a Hyundai beats 600 series and a Volvo. You will replace the Hyundai in 3 years but the 800 series will only just be run in :lol: :rofl: .................hang on a minute, that is probably true.................

[Pace3000]

Hey, my Volvo beats any Hyundai! :

[angelface]

Hey, my Volvo beats any Hyundai! :

But are 683's better speakers than 805's? ...

... ok probably not!

[Briz vegas]

Hey, my Volvo beats any Hyundai! :

I think you should try 2 or 3 combos in your price range. Most dealers like the idea of customers spending more. I think 4 805s and a HTM4 would be an amazing solution that would easily better your suggested system if your budget stretches Why?

- it looks gorgeous and is other half friendly in the compact looks department (little nod there to our dealer friend)
- identical drivers all around - perfect if movies and surround are your thing
- you have a sub to give you all the movie boom
- it would be an easier load on the amp and a less stressed amp will make for a much better sound.

I would try this before 703 and HTM7 if using a receiver as the 703 (to work their best) needs more current that most receivers can muster and the HTM7 is not the best match (I know I have one with an even worse match - 804s).

[Pace3000]

So, onto a new shop to compare 683 and 804S - Glasgow Audio. I started off with a 683/HTM61/684 config in 5.1 (with the AS2 sub initially, then swapping it for the PV1), then swapped the 684 pair for a 685 pair at the back, and I didn't really hear much difference. I felt that, from the front, there was a very convincing soundfield, but the rear monopoles always had me feeling like the sound was coming directly from them, and moving sounds (planes passing in Pearl Harbour) seemed to jump from rear to the front. Once in the front channels though, the movement was again fantastic.

So, am I just too conscious of the rear speakers, or is this where the monopoles fall down? Sadly, they didn't have DS3s in!

Finally, after some stereo through the 683s, I asked to hear the 804S... poisoned chalice. The 683s were the best speakers I'd ever heard, and then I go and top it - I just loved how the room just seemed to open up more, and the recording (Pink Floyd - Time) just had so much more depth! I think the price will eventually put me off though.

Anyway, 804S pair currently retails for GBP2700, 683s are GBP900, the the 683/HTM61/685/PV1 setup is GBP2630 (double costs for US Dollar). He said we could work on the price later, but how much below this do you think they could go?

Once again, thanks. I know there isn't a right answer, so eternally grateful to all this help - a very welcoming forum ;x(!

[angelface]

So, am I just too conscious of the rear speakers, or is this where the monopoles fall down? Sadly, they didn't have DS3s in!

Finally, after some stereo through the 683s, I asked to hear the 804S... poisoned chalice. The 683s were the best speakers I'd ever heard, and then I go and top it - I just loved how the room just seemed to open up more, and the recording (Pink Floyd - Time) just had so much more depth! I think the price will eventually put me off though.

Anyway, 804S pair currently retails for GBP2700, 683s are GBP900, the the 683/HTM61/685/PV1 setup is GBP2630 (double costs for US Dollar). He said we could work on the price later, but how much below this do you think they could go?

Just what everyone says dipoles are better than monopoles especially against a wall. They don't even have to match the fronts/centre.

I thought the same about 805's - they are a lot better but they were much more expensive than the 601S3's I had listened to before.

Given that the 6 series has only been out for 6 months I doubt if you'll get much discount. You should be able to get a few hundred off the PV1 though and perhaps a bit more (say 10 %) if you buy the package.

[Pace3000]

So an 804S/DS3 combo would work?

Edit: Should the surrounds sit as per attachment? Also, as a newbie question, does the bi/dipolar DS8S actually fire in 3 directions, but with 'both' drivers out of phase?

[Pace3000]

Bipolar vs Dipolar

Just realised that bipolar and dipolar are different (Polk Audio educated me on the matter), so now I think the dipolar aren't appropriate for being on the wall behind me. Do B&W make bipolar speakers?

[angelface]

DS3's are switchable monopole/dipole speakers

[hifiguymi]

DS3's are swicthable monopole/bipole speakers

It's monopole/dipole not bipole.

Eric

[Pace3000]

So, can I put dipoles in this position?

[hifiguymi]

Yes you can. They do sound better on the side walls, but I've gotten very good results with them on the back wall as well.

Eric

[angelface]

If you look at the manual (this is downloadable from their website) it explains
where you should position them.

I think the idea is for the sound from the side cones to rebound off something instead of coming straight at you.

[WI Rotel]

Your setup sounds excellent :T . Ive never been a dipole fan, a much better solution is to go 7.1. The dipoles were more of a vogue for 5.1 systems (they radiated from the sides to simulate sound comming from the rear wall). Now that 7.1 systems are more common the dipole solution is really much less attractive. I would simply buy another set of 685's to use as "rear" speakers. Both dolby and DTS handle 7.1. Here is an example with XT's

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=354788&postcount=1377

[Pace3000]

Not convinced with the surrounds yet, so just ordered:

• Onkyo SR805 Receiver (not great, but it will resell with all those features)
• 2 * B&W 804S (front left/right)

[angelface]

Good be an expensive choice.

I don't think you'll regret the 804S's but you'll want much better electronics that the
Onkyo to drive them. If you really want the latest 7.1 formats then you'll have to keep the Onkyo for surround sound but you should get a decent stereo preamp/power amp combo for CD replay (perhaps Cyrus DACXP and 2 MonoX power amps or soemthing from Naim or Audionet). Otherwise I would consider something from
Audiolab, Nad (reference series) or even Meridian.

[Pace3000]

Ok, decided to forget about a new car - added an HTM3S and 2 x 805S to the order. I certainly do plan on adding to the Onkyo - my first thoughts were a Rotel RMB1075 or RMB1095. That will be into next year though, so the market might have changed a bit by then. Might even have a new job by then and I'll get Classe kit

Thanks again for all assistance - I'll update on Monday when the 804S arrive.

[Mark-n-b]

I think you have made an excellent choice, and i do agree with what ToddD wrote above - get the best speakers you can afford.
Please post some pics when it is all set-up :T

[Pace3000]

So, dealer came round yesterday to set up the Onkyo amp and 804S speakers. It was only then that he revealed that the cables were not included in the sales order, and I'd have to come in and buy some. Arguments aside, I've now just collected some Atlas Hyper Bi-Wire, with connectors similar to the below (click to enlarge):



They fit perfectly into the speakers, but the (identical) connectors at the other end don't fit into the amp... am I making a silly mistake here? I'd just love to get them going tonight, as if I wait on my dealer tomorrow it'll be the weekend before I get into it

Thanks if you can help me out tonight!

[Mark-n-b]

The denon amps/receivers have plastic bungs that fit inside the speaker terminals, and you have to remove them before you can insert plugs into them. Could it be something like that?

[Pace3000]

Thanks for the idea - couldn't work out how to get any of the plastic bits off, so I'll grumble to the dealer again tomorrow. The amp can take unterminated cables, so perhaps that's how it should have been done. They _look_ fantastic though!