7.1 update

[WI Rotel]

Well after about 12 hours of installation due in part to very difficult stereo placement and wiring difficulties, measuring distances to set delays and levels with a sound meter. IT'S DONE :T

What can I say........... friggin unbelievable ;x(
The 1080 makes the XT4's sing even better than the 1095, decernibly better bass/ lower midrange separation (less muddy, guess damping factor does make a difference). The 1095 is driving all the surround (4 XT2, 1XTC) as expected, it doesn't even get warm at all regardless of level, period, now its the 1080's turn to get a little warm :W . Thanks aussie for the recommendation regarding the Dolby 7 channel format, it is trully spectacular La Notte di Figaro thanks you. The Matrix in HDDVD and dolby digital EX will make you speechless, it trully feels like you are Dancing in the great hall of Zion or riding around with Morpheous and Neo.

Lastly, thanks BW and Rotel for making such great toys for our enjoyment! If reliable, this should be my last audio buy, not cheap but definitely totally satisfied!

[Nolan B]

I'd like to see some pictures!

I have recently been thinking of going 7.1 by adding to more FPMs and using the last two channels of my 1077. My room is good for it, and I know of some good 7.1 tittles comig to HD DVD and BD in the near future.

Whats 7 channel stereo like? Is it much different then 5 channel?

[WI Rotel]

I'd like to see some pictures!

I have recently been thinking of going 7.1 by adding to more FPMs and using the last two channels of my 1077. My room is good for it, and I know of some good 7.1 tittles comig to HD DVD and BD in the near future.

Whats 7 channel stereo like? Is it much different then 5 channel?

Well my camera died and my new one is on back order at B&H (2 weeks now :M) as soon as it shows up I'll post some pics. One thing I can tell you is that a 1068 with a 1095 below it and a 1080 on top of it definitely makes for a "nice rack" (pun intended). What I can tell you about 7.1 is that its very similar to the improvement as adding a second PV1. My entertainment area is rather large due to its layout my video area is facing the short axis of a sizeable rectangle, as you know, that is opposite of what it should be. Now the entire room is filled wall to wall with perfect sound rather than having a "hot spot" flanked by "cooler" areas. Definitely worth the upgrade in my situation. However, in a smaller venue where your rear surrounds are already at the corners of a square room it might be overkill. I have attached a drawing. Sorry but as old bones McCoy would say " I'm a doctor not and architect"!

[akhter]

From the diagram, it seems it should work very well for you as the couch is almost equidistant from all the speakers

I can't even go to 5.1, let alone 7.2. I am stuck in 3.1 land as my couch is against the wall and no room on the left or right (window and open space).

[WI Rotel]

From the diagram, it seems it should work very well for you as the couch is almost equidistant from all the speakers

I can't even go to 5.1, let alone 7.2. I am stuck in 3.1 land as my couch is against the wall and no room on the left or right (window and open space).

The surround speakers are a little squewed but its easily fixed by adjusting the delay and sound levels. A cheap sound level monitor is invaluable.

In your situation, if you want to do simple surround you could flank your sofa with 2 small speakers (FPM on stands are very unobstrusive) for perfectly fine 5.1, of course, the sofa would be your "hot" spot. It would be fine for movies and you could switch to stereo or 3 surround for music.
Take a look at the ideas section here:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1181&terid=1284&sc=ht

[ShadowZA]

Great setup, WI Rotel :T
Not easy to accomplish ... but now you can ... Enjoy!

[WI Rotel]

Great setup, WI Rotel :T
Not easy to accomplish ... but now you can ... Enjoy!

That 8 series setup doesn't look too shabby either!

[WI Rotel]

Update to update.........
Bought "The 300" on HDDVD to give the system a shakedown cruise.
Result: Speechless

BTW: For those that were wondering about dynamic range compression on the XBOX 360 HDDVD. Its now switchable, you can freely enjoy the HD surround to your heart's content. As expected the default is OFF. The 300 DVD gives you the choice of audio surround including Dolby HD surround, the 1068's management of the format will make Leonidas cry like a babe! Please note that Dolby HD surround is not a Blueray standard (its optional) it is the HDDVD standard and is exactly the same, uncompressed, movie master track! UNBELIEVABLE

[akhter]

Update to update.........
Bought "The 300" on HDDVD to give the system a shakedown cruise.
Result: Speechless

BTW: For those that were wondering about dynamic range compression on the XBOX 360 HDDVD. Its now switchable, you can freely enjoy the HD surround to your heart's content. As expected the default is OFF. The 300 DVD gives you the choice of audio surround including Dolby HD surround, the 1068's management of the format will make Leonidas cry like a babe! Please note that Dolby HD surround is not a Blueray standard (its optional) it is the HDDVD standard and is exactly the same, uncompressed, movie master track! UNBELIEVABLE

how do u get audio out of the xbox? hdmi with the elite or optical?

[WI Rotel]

how do u get audio out of the xbox? hdmi with the elite or optical?

I didnt buy the elite since I already have the 120 hard drive. Thus, my box connection is composite video and optical audio. I've been considering replacing my early gen hi def projection TV for a plasma, but that will have to wait till fall.

[Nolan B]

You cant get any of the HD audio formats out of the Xbox. The the best you can get is DTS.

[WI Rotel]

You cant get any of the HD audio formats out of the Xbox. The the best you can get is DTS.

Partially correct, the XBOX can only do 5.1, however, if you are using the digital output, the decoding is done by your preamp where Dolby HD surround is decoded by Dolby Digital EX into 6.1 or 7.1 for the Rotel surround processors. I'm not aware of any hardware in the market that runs Dolby HD yet. With Dolby HD the rear matrix channels are full range with Digital EX they are not.

[Relentless]

Update to update.........
uncompressed, movie master track! UNBELIEVABLE

I thought you could only get uncompressed HD audio through 7.1 analog PCM and HDMI?

[Blindamood]

I thought you could only get uncompressed HD audio through 7.1 analog PCM and HDMI?

That is my understanding too. I believe through the digital (coax) connection, you're only getting a down-rez'd Dolby Digital stream (not Dolby HD).

[hifiguymi]

The best you can get from the optical, or coaxial, digital outputs is DD or dts. The new DD+, dtsHD, and the lossless versions can only be transmitted through HDMI. Since the decoding of all of the new formats will happen in the players and the audio signal will be an uncompressed multi-channel PCM sent through the HDMI, that is what you need to have for decoding in a receiver or processor. If it has audio support through HDMI then your golden. There is no need to have decoding of the new formats in a receiver or processor.

Eric

[WI Rotel]

The best you can get from the optical, or coaxial, digital outputs is DD or dts. The new DD+, dtsHD, and the lossless versions can only be transmitted through HDMI. Since the decoding of all of the new formats will happen in the players and the audio signal will be an uncompressed multi-channel PCM sent through the HDMI, that is what you need to have for decoding in a receiver or processor. If it has audio support through HDMI then your golden. There is no need to have decoding of the new formats in a receiver or processor.

Eric

Using the box as a source the 1068 defaults to dolby digital ES which is a 7.1 format (more or less). Actually its an "extended" 5.1 since the rear 2 channels are not discreet, they do not include full range information.
As we know DD is not a lossless format. The only true 7.1 codec that you can buy at this time, as stated above, at this time is DTS. Unfortunately the video standard is DD. DHD is already available but I don't know of any hardware manufacturer that icludes it as of yet. Anyway...... Moot point, HDDVD looks fabulous using the Xbox player, it is decoded as EX (so its "7.1") when using the optical output and there is no audio compression. In addition, Dolby HD is backward compatible with all other dolby surrounds. Knowing the scarcity of 7.1 systems I don't think people are going to rush to buy even more speakers and stereos. It seems every time you look sideways a new codec comes out of the woodwork. A 5.1 system is a pain to install, a 7.1 even more so, and the price is prohibitive (Though with 2 amps ,1 preamp, 2 pv1's and seven assorted XT's, I still have spent less than a pair of diamonds :B .

[Nolan B]

Partially correct, the XBOX can only do 5.1, however, if you are using the digital output, the decoding is done by your preamp where Dolby HD surround is decoded by Dolby Digital EX into 6.1 or 7.1 for the Rotel surround processors. I'm not aware of any hardware in the market that runs Dolby HD yet. With Dolby HD the rear matrix channels are full range with Digital EX they are not.

Mybe I missunderstand what you are posting, but I know for a fact that the best the 360 can do is DTS @ 1.5. You can not under any conditions get DD+, Tru-HD or PCM out of the Xbox Add on.

what do you mean by "Dolby HD surround"? What do you think that is curiosly? Dolby EX 6.1 or 7.1 is not a HD audio codec.


In order to experience Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD, or lossless audio via PCM you will need a stand alone player. The Xbox Add on will not do any better then what the best SD DVD has to offer.


the xbox will not send DD+ or THD to an external processor in order to decode it either.

[WI Rotel]

Mybe I missunderstand what you are posting, but I know for a fact that the best the 360 can do is DTS @ 1.5. You can not under any conditions get DD+, Tru-HD or PCM out of the Xbox Add on.

what do you mean by "Dolby HD surround"? What do you think that is curiosly? Dolby EX 6.1 or 7.1 is not a HD audio codec.


In order to experience Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD, or lossless audio via PCM you will need a stand alone player. The Xbox Add on will not do any better then what the best SD DVD has to offer.


the xbox will not send DD+ or THD to an external processor in order to decode it either.

Where were getting our cables crossed is on the Xbox. Remember if you use the optical output, the Xbox is not decoding anything, its simply reading the disc and supplying the preamp to decode whatever codecs are in the bitstream. You are correct about Dolby HD but you have to remember that the format is backward compatible. The HD stream can be read by previous decoders, they simply cannot use the entire info. BTW, are you cognizant of any players in the market that can "do" Dolby HD?

[WI Rotel]

Here's the skinny on the X box adusio capabilities from the MS website:

Audio formats that Xbox 360 can play
The following audio formats can encode on Xbox 360:• Stereo PCM, 16-bit, 48 kilohertz (kHz)
• Dolby Digital ® 5.1 channel digital audio, 48kHz
The following sound formats can pass-through Xbox 360:• Dolby Digital ® 5.1 channel digital audio, 48kHz
• THX 5.1 channel digital audio, 48kHz
• WMA Pro
• Digital Theatre Surround (DTS) 5.1

Noteolby Digital EX; DTS ES and neo are all enhanced 5.1 codecs to run 6 or 7 speakers surround.

[hifiguymi]

You are correct about Dolby HD but you have to remember that the format is backward compatible.

Sort of. If an HD-DVD or Blu-ray Disc has a DD+, Dolby TrueHD, dtsHD or dtsHD Master Audio the players will do a "down-mix" or the disc will have a separate track for the coaxial and optical outputs. The best audio track you will ever get through those outputs would be dtsES Discreet. That is the only discreet 6.1 format on DVD's. The other ones (DD and dtsES) use a matrixed 6.1.

The HD stream can be read by previous decoders, they simply cannot use the entire info.

That is not true. You have to have a decoder that will know what to do with the new formats. If you have a unit like a Denon AVR-3806 or a Rotel RSX-1058, they will not know what to do with the new codecs. The only way to get them from a source (an HD-DVD or Blu-ray Disc player) is through the HDMI. Those receivers have audio support on the HDMI inputs, but they will not decode the new formats. It would have to be Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, dts, dtsES, dtsES 6.1 Discreet, or PCM.

BTW, are you cognizant of any players in the market that can "do" Dolby HD?

Yes. Every HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc stand alone player. All of them decode the DD+, DD TrueHD, dtsHD, and dtsHD MA in the players and output it as an uncompressed multi-channel PCM. There are receivers on the market that will decode those formats as well, but for HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc they will never need it. Those players will not output those formats in their "raw" form. As I stated, the players will decode those data streams and output PCM to the receiver or preamp.

I'm not sure what happens with the X-BOX360 HD-DVD add on. Maybe someone else could tell us?

Eric

[WI Rotel]

I'm not sure what happens with the X-BOX360 HD-DVD add on. Maybe someone else could tell us?

Eric

Me neither! When I set the movie for HD playback it worked fine. The 1068 said it was doing dolby digital ES.

Again not to worry, the sound and surround are AWESOME regardless of how it was truly happening . I'll do a little AB checking between the formats to see if there is any difference on the info that is being routed. :T

[Nolan B]

Here is how I understand it.

Stand alone HD DVD players: Its in the HD DVD sepc that it is manditory that all stand alone players be able to decode Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD. All stand alone players can send this as PCM via HDMI.

Stand alone BD players: Its not maditory in the BD spec that stand alone players decode Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD, so not all BD players are able to do so. This is not really an issue however since many BD tittles have the sound on the disc as PCM. All BD players can send PCM via the HDMI output.

HD DVD add on: What I do know for sure is that there is no way for the HD DVD xbox to ouput PCM, or DD+ or TrueHD via its optical and its HDMI. While technically i believe the add on CAN decode the new formats it gets down sampled to good old Dolby Digital or DTS.

Side notes:

-"Dolby HD" is not a next gen audio format. I am not sure what that is actually.

-DD+ is usually 1.5 mbps and can be 640 kpbs. I cant imagine much gets lossed when converting it to DTS or dolby digital since DTS is 1.5 mbps and Dolby digital is 640 kbps when using he xbox.

-until the update in the spring the Xbox add on was lock in "night" mode which basicly killed the dynamic range of the audio. This is very similar to the option on the 1068 where you can change the dynamic range on Dolby digital to low, mid, or high which effectily keeps the laud scenes of the movie at the same sound level of dialog.

When the spring oupdate came out the dynamic range was "unlocked" resulting in a much better dynamic range and the percenption (and i guess reality) of better sound quality.

[Kevin D]

If you thought it sounded good now, you still haven't heard it in 7.1!

Since we've established you are only sending it a 5.1 signal and letting the 1068 decode the format, when it's set to DD EX or DTS ES the 1068 is only decoding the two rear channels into 3 signals. Your center rears are MONO, playing the same signal.

You need to set the 1068 to decode DD and DTS signals with PLIIx. This will decode the two rear channels into four separate channels, actually giving you 7.1 output. I believe you hit the SUR+ button then left/right when on a digital signal. You should have the following options:

DD
DD + EX
DD + XS (rotel's 6.1 decoding)
DD Down mix
DD + PLIIx Music
DD + PLIIx Cinema

DTS is the same except for DTS + ES (ES Discrete is on the disc). You will be amazed how much better PLIIx is over regular EX or ES.

Kevin D.

[WI Rotel]

If you thought it sounded good now, you still haven't heard it in 7.1!

Since we've established you are only sending it a 5.1 signal and letting the 1068 decode the format, when it's set to DD EX or DTS ES the 1068 is only decoding the two rear channels into 3 signals. Your center rears are MONO, playing the same signal.

You need to set the 1068 to decode DD and DTS signals with PLIIx. This will decode the two rear channels into four separate channels, actually giving you 7.1 output. I believe you hit the SUR+ button then left/right when on a digital signal. You should have the following options:

DD
DD + EX
DD + XS (rotel's 6.1 decoding)
DD Down mix
DD + PLIIx Music
DD + PLIIx Cinema

DTS is the same except for DTS + ES (ES Discrete is on the disc). You will be amazed how much better PLIIx is over regular EX or ES.

Kevin D.

I have used PLIIx and I agreee the sound is fantastic. I have to find some time to sit and audition all the available variations. I still haven't played any of my DVD A's on it, they sounded fantastic on on 5.1 on PLIIx it must be definitely something else!