B&W Center Channel Speaker or Phantom?

[beden1]

I had first asked this question in another discussion, but felt it best to start a thread here, as it may also hold interest to others.

I currently have a compromise/mis-match using an HTM1 center channel speaker along with 803D fronts. I'm having a real hard time justifying the cost of an HTM2D as it may also be a compromise, instead of having an 803D as a center speaker. Unfortunately however, I can't see how to position a third 803D without totally butchering our living room asthetics and giving my wife even more fits.

How much is lost by eliminating the center channel altogether, and just using the front 803Ds in a phantom setting? Or, is it the lesser evil of compromises?

My focal listening point is 10 feet away from the surround sound/HT system, and the fronts are currently positioned with a spread of 10 feet forming a triangle. I listen to 50% music and 50% HT in this setup. If using a phantom setting, is it better to move the fronts closer to one another?

I am not in Florida now to listen to my (this) system, and am trying to finalize the design of a new entertainment center with a cabinet maker (plans need to be completed before I return in about a month).

Any advise is appreciated.

[chin kwan]

Beden1: I have the exact same problem as you.. I posted here for help a few months and I still have not got it to my liking..

I am running Proceed PAV/PDSD to ML23.5 for the N803 and Proceed Amp2 for the HTM1. I did borrow another 23.5 to drive the HTM1 as well with no success.. FYI, my speakers cables/interconnect cables are the same for the front 3 as well..I have got everything identical and it still does not integrate very well..

In short, I am wondering if the dispersion pattern is so different that it's hard to merge a HTM1 with N803..

I think there are only 2 real options (that you already know)

1) Phantom and forget the center channel

2) buy a 3rd 803 and have identical trio up front

Sad as I have plucked down my money on the HTM1 and the matching Sound Anchor Stand plus matching IC, speaker cable etc.....

[ZX10 Guy]

chin kwan,

How do you have your front three speakers set up? Since you said the HTM1 is sitting on some Sound Anchor stands, I will assume the height difference of the HTM1's mid/tweeter is drastically lower than the N803 L/R speakers. If this is the case, then that's part of your problem. If you have the financial means to do so, it's better to run with a N803 center as that is going to be as perfect as you can get in terms of seemless speaker integration.

I myself am kicking myself for going with an HTM1 center. I should have purchased another N804 to match my L/R mains as I have the flexibility now to use a fully matched front setup. But with how I have the HTM1 now, it's as good as you're going to get having to use a center speaker. My HTM1's mid/tweeter is almost in perfect alignment with my N804 L/R speakers height wise.

[beden1]

chin kwan & ZX10 Guy;

I'm surprised that the HTM1 does not intergrate well with your N803 speakers as they have the same tweeter/timbre? ZX10 Guy is correct in that it takes some experimentation with positioning.

In my setup with the HTM1, my problem is more with the fact that the tweeter is different in the HTM1 (non diamond tweeter) vs. my 803D front speakers.

When I used the HTM1 with my 703s as fronts, I felt the balance was very good. If you look at my system pictures, you'll see that I have the HTM1 on a Lovan center speaker floor stand that enables me to angle the speaker up or down with a multitude of angles. The speaker is actually sitting near to the floor on the stand, and it is nearly seamless when angled up properly.

I had a problem before when using an HTM7 as a center speaker, and had the speaker positioned at the same level as my 703 mains. The timbre match was not exceptional, and the center speaker stood out like a sore thumb as it was positioned at the listening level.

For the sound (not asthetics), I much prefer my current setup for positioning the center channel speaker.

[ZX10 Guy]

I've always had problems with center speakers placed above/below the horizontal plane of the main's mid/tweeters. Even with the center angled towards the listening position. The image and soundstage just wasn't very cohesive. Felt like the center was out of sync with the mains.....can't describe it better right now as I'm having a brain fart. But here's my solution to using a center:



Not ideal but it works pretty decently. Would rather not have such a big equipment rack for the center to sit on top of. But really, I would rather not have the center and have another N804 to take its place.

[beden1]

ZX10 Guy

That's really a nice setup and one like I wanted to do. Unfortunately, my setup is in our living room which is the first room you see when you enter the house through the foyer. My wife really wants something that fits with the decor/upscale look of the house, etc. She just got over the fact that I decided to use this room as our home theater, so I have to try and please her if I can (I bought the initial setup when I was there by myself and told her what I did afterwards, LOL).

So, I'm faced with trying to get a furniture cabinet made that will discretely house the electronics, flat screen TV and a center channel speaker (these B&W centers are tough to accomodate.) And, my wife does not want the TV mounted on the wall!

I'm playing with trying to design something that will let me use an 803D for the center, but barring that option, I may decide to go phantom. I'm limited with wall width and also have to find room for twin 15" Velodyne subs.

[chin kwan]

To clarify.. I am using N803 and HTM1.. my HTM1 is atop a Sound Anchor stand which is height adjustable and tilt adjustable (Sound Anchor provided me extra long spikes as well as the threading) I have us a laser pointer to aim the tweeter on the same plane as my N803 height wise but it still ain't perfect.. Sort of hard to get the vocal to float in free space from the HTM1.. I have not had real experience on identical fronts except a buddy of mine has the B&W THX set and his identical front trio blends perfectly even with the center speaker aimimg up..

[beden1]

To clarify.. I am using N803 and HTM1.. my HTM1 is atop a Sound Anchor stand which is height adjustable and tilt adjustable (Sound Anchor provided me extra long spikes as well as the threading) I have us a laser pointer to aim the tweeter on the same plane as my N803 height wise but it still ain't perfect.. Sort of hard to get the vocal to float in free space from the HTM1.. I have not had real experience on identical fronts except a buddy of mine has the B&W THX set and his identical front trio blends perfectly even with the center speaker aimimg up..

The only other thing that I keep playing with is the "dialogue" feature on my receiver. The feature kind of narrows the sound field of the three front speakers, and helps to blend the three better. I use this feature primarily for HT and turn it off when listening to music. In fact, I usually turn off my center channel speaker for music as I feel it interferes with channel separation.

[rmht]

Some treatments would do wonders.

I have N804's with HTM1 and looooooooove the combo.

ZX10 that is allot of hard surfaces......

[ZX10 Guy]

beden1,

If you're constrained by having to stuff a center into a furniture cabinet, I'd be more inclined with just going with a phantom center setup.

chin kwan,

Having the center still below the horizontal plane of the main speakers is still not optimal. Like I said, it's best to have the center placed in the same horizontal plane as the main speakers for proper soundstaging/imaging. Plus the off axis performance wouldn't be so different with the tilt of the center channel compared to the mains.

rmht,

When I was at the planning stages of this dedicated room, I consulted the guys at Acoustical Solutions. Based on my conversations with them and the intended use of my system being geared mainly for music, they suggested the hardwood. Said if I carpeted the 16'x21' room, it would make the room too dead. They said it's preferable to have some reflective surface and to control any echos and harshness of the hardwood floors with area rugs. The area rug I have down now is about 9'x15' if I remember correctly. What's missing right now that I haven't done per my conversations with Acoustical Solutions are the room treatments. I was set to order them but I couldn't pass up a deal on the DD18 and SMS-1 I was offerred. So at the time it was either do the room treatments or do the DD18 and SMS-1 and not save a butt load of money taking advantage of the deal. I'm still planning on doing the room treatments. The plan is to have 6 4'x4' panels. Two on either side of the plasma and 2 on each side wall at the first reflection points. Also called for are two bass traps at the front corners of the room. What's stopping me from doing it now is the recent investment in my home Cisco lab that has run me about $5000 so far. Once the dust settles, the order will be placed for the room treatments. Currently, the room isn't too bad. There is some harshness in the highs which sometimes prevents me from really jamming with the system but it's still pretty good as is currently. I can only imagine the sound of the system getting better when the room treatments get installed.