Top Ten Reasons Why Subwoofers and B&W Loudspeakers Don't Mix Musically... Usually

[DrJRapp]

Bravo James...... one of the better threads I've read in awhile!

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks Shadow

For 2ch, say you set the xover at 60. So overall the bass in the room below that will get "normalised" and above that not. Just sounds odd. (pun intended).

Kobus

It really depends on the in-room response. There are many acoustical appliances and setup variations that one can use above 100Hz. The lower you go, the harder it is to implement those, so EQ becomes an effective appliance there. Since the SMS-1 shows response up to 200Hz, anomalies there, if any, are revealed.

[DM3000 Owner]

Wow, what a great informative thread. Great responses and lots of info. Myself, I am by no means a technological "guru" when it comes to sub set ups etc. I just go with what I think sounds good, and my 801 S3 Matrix paired up with dual DD 15's keeps me smiling every time. Whether or not I need them, don't know. I just love the sound. :T

I have not been following this either. I have a JL Audio F113 on the way :T :T to go with my 801's and don't want to ruin the excitement...

[Eliav]

Subwoofers shouldn't be involved but often are. The entire audible band between 20Hz and 20kHz is broken down by octaves, ten to be exact. The first octave is low bass the second mid-bass and the third upper bass. The second octave (mid-bass) is recognized as stretching between 40Hz and 80/100Hz. 100+Hz is upper bass. You are welcome to free dose of mystical mantra if you are ever in the area. :rofl:

They do care, in fact, they make it very clear... Here's a thought for the technically unaware, how about no equalization for the best performance?!!! Hmm... :roll:

I say you are misinformed. I don't use a surround processor for stereo only home theater. :B

Guys
Let me just put in my 2 cents as an Ear Nose and Throat specialist :
the hearing tests ( such as you have most likely had Rebelman) do NOT measure frequencies below 250Hz ( some would go as low as 125Hz). freqencies below 50Hz are rarely tested as these are considered Tactile rather than audioable. I doubt if any of you guys can hear 20HZ at 0,20 or even 30 dB ( you most likely FEEL these frequencies).
FYI
Eliav

[beden1]

I just attended a graduation party, and had an interesting conversation with someone who owns/runs a recording studio. It was an informative discussion that touched on some root issues being discussed in this thread.

I am a layman when it comes to the digital techno speak, but what I learned was that much of our source audio material is far from a live/purist rendition of the original artist/performers.

As digital technology has progressed, it's capabilities have enabled the artists and producers to tailor their music in a myriad of ways. Depending on the artists' primary target audience, recordings are now being produced/mixed specifically for optimum digital reproduction through either MP3s (compressed files), or for radio, or for CDs, or for music DVDs, or for movie DVDs, etc. Some artists are now also trying to primarily target the analog audience and are producing recordings tailored specifically for vinyl (using analog reel-to-reel tape, and this medium is supposed to be re-developing a very strong following.)

I asked if some popular artists were producing/mixing their recordings for the best reproductions for any number of these different applications (specifically for MP3 compressed files, and another for CDs, etc) and he said that since CD sales have continued to slide, many artists are first targeting for MP3 end users, and if their music becomes a commercial hit, they then go back and mix for a higher quality recording for a CD for example (but not in all cases).

I asked if that is why I find many of the newer CDs producing a lesser overall quality sound than I get from older/original recording CDs, and he said definitely. He said that most of the older original artist/master recordings for CDs were produced on analog tape and resulted in a much higher quality finished product.

He also said that most of the new vinyl recordings are using analog tape, but that the new equipment is very expensive and this investment is usually limited to the larger recording studios. The vintage studio reel-to-reel equipment has had a huge demand and that most of it is no longer on the market to purchase.

Another interesting point he brought up was that they use different studio speakers depending on what sound and audience/technology they are targeting. Some play back even includes boom boxes. I was quite surprised to learn this, and asked why it appeared that a studio like Abbey Road used only B&W 800 Series speakers for their studio play back? He said that most of their artists are established, and most of them prefer to record on the highest reference standards. But, he said that most large recording studios are also now incorporating any and all available technologies depending on the circumstance. He also went into some technical advances that are available today, and that are/will be capable of producing a high level recording for MP3 compressed files. The equipment he was referring to is extremely expensive, and will become more main stream as prices come down.

He said that studios like Abbey Road have so much equipment thrown at them by manufacturers, that they always have the most advanced stuff available that many others are not quite financially capable of participating in the leading edge. (meaning they don't always have to pay for these new technologies or some other studio equipment, as their name is a marketing benefit for the manufacturer?)

So, I guess it's tough to be a purist audiophile today, when the original recordings have been re-mastered ad infinitum up-stream, and long before we load it into our CD players!

[RebelMan]

The focus of this discussion was not designed to preach subwoofer integration nor was it meant to compare and contrast the merits or limitations of doing so in a stereo environment. The position taken was only intended to dispel the myth that excessive noise equates to improved fidelity. The myth being that subwoofers are essential to realize at home the full presentation found in most prerecorded or live music performances. As usual there are a few rare exceptions and for those listeners the choice left at their disposal will be between the lesser of two evils, that of lost bandwidth or that of increased distortion.

I was reaffirmed of this principle last night after the concert I attended. The significant difference between what you hear in concert from what you hear at home are decibels not frequencies. Concert promoters blanket their auditorium with extremely efficient horn loaded speakers and lots of them filling the room with lots of noise. I repeat lots of noise, not deep pounding sub 40Hz bass. However, a reasonable amount of visceral feel is necessary and therefore injected into the audience to match the noise that showers your ears because of the perpetuated myth that loud noise should move you. Its no wonder why show promoters lace loud sounds with tactile feel because many people falsely equate these intangibles to value not quality.

Overall the acoustic rendition of last night’s performance, controlled and managed by the sound crew, was well done but there were a few noticeable slips along the way. One notable mishap was the dip in loudness that occurred with one of the vocalists. Phil Perry was singing his heart out (and very well I might add) and from my position (eighth rows back) he still sounded great but you could tell the slight drop tempered the room… it wasn’t loud enough. There were a couple of other loudness lulls during the show with a few instruments (rarely does a show go off with out a hitch) that had quicker recovery but the impacts to the audience were the same which lends credence to the points established earlier that people associate loudness for a good time not a good sound!

A counter point to this discussion was offered suggesting that tools are available to address if not ameliorate all the negative issues associated with integrating subwoofers with full-range loudspeakers for stereo reproduction thus affording a more conducive sound presentation in the comfort of your home. There is no doubt that such tools exist and are growing in popularity along with certain misconceptions and mistruths. But the real contention isn’t so much that they are used but when they are used and how they are used that is.

Where does the root of the problem lie in your sound system? Is it with the room? How about your speakers? Maybe it’s the ancillary equipment? It’s impossible to properly correct a problem that hasn’t been properly diagnosed. Exercising technology as a stopgap measure is, to put it mildly, naïve. High technology tools are great when applied appropriately but conversely detrimental. Signal calibrating tools are intended for use only when the root problem has been identified and all other conventional means have been considered and exhausted. If compromises to signal quality must be made, then prudence will dictate the least harmful choice, but only if high-fidelity is your chief concern.

By the way the concert showcased a new talent, Kelly Sweet. Anyone that loves female vocals that primarily caters to the Smooth Jazz genre is well advised to check her out. :T

[ShadowZA]

Some interesting reading & topic-related food for thought:

Laurence Dickie (ex B&W) - February 2007 Press Interview:

"..but it is my sincere belief that as you approach perfection the difference between listeners perceptions become smaller."

http://www.vividspeakers.com/press_story.php?id=77

Interesting is what he says in paragraph 7: "..we will be adding subwoofers for those who simply want to extend the bottom end of their existing Vivid Audio systems without adding colouration as is with most competitors’ LF units today.."

[bigburner]

Members who follow my posts will know that I am an advocate of integrating a subwoofer into a 2-channel system. I listen to a lot of music and I know that it improves the sound, hence my scepticism for people who think otherwise. More importantly, with the budget that I have allocated to hi-fi purchases, I really don't see an alternative to using a subwoofer in order to achieve the sound that I want. The amount of time that I spend listening to music has enabled me to get the integration just right for my tastes, and it does take quite a lot of time.

However I'm now wondering whether the need for a subwoofer is related to the genre of music that is being played. RebelMan clearly enjoys Smooth Jazz as do other members of this forum. However this is not the type of music that I associate with getting the most out of my subwoofer. Typically the music that I understand to be Smooth Jazz is played at a polite volume during dinner parties and social functions where conversation is the priority. The artists in my collection that I place in this category include George Benson, India.Arie, and Norah Jones. As well as vocals, Smooth Jazz is liberally sprinkled with saxophones and guitars, with a heavy emphasis on melodies. This is not subwoofer country!

In contrast, many of the genres that I prefer emphasise the rhythm section (primarily electric or double bass plus drums) and are listened to at an impolite volume - not ear shattering you understand, but please save the chit chat for later. In this environment - with the aforementioned budgetary limitations - the theoretical disadvantages of subwoofer integration are an irrelevancy.

Nigel.

[Aldo]

:B What can I say!
I have four ASW855 subs! :B

[RebelMan]

Smooth Jazz has a diverse following, both figuratively and literally, with roots that trace back to the Pop and R&B cultures from a few decades ago. Smooth Jazz is a loosely termed category covering all forms of alternative Jazz not a myopic twist of the classical form. Smooth Jazz is a progressive format fusing varieties of rock and metal, funk and hip-hop, folk and reggae with the classics. It’s not to be confused with easy listening and elevator Muzak but if need be it can serve in those capacities with aplomb. Smooth Jazz can be found everywhere because it’s highly adaptable to the broad range of activities that listeners may find themselves engaged in whether it is for passive social occasions or when the focus is on nothing but the music.

If you are looking for rhythm we’ve got that too and pleanty of it. May I suggest a smattering of Euge Grove’s Just Feels Right-Chillaxin, Chris Standring’s Soul Express – Catwalk, Norman Brown’s West Coast Coolin’ – West Coast Coolin’ , Paul Brown’s The City – Cosmic Monkey or White Sand – The Rhythm Method, Brian Coulbertson’s Come on Up – Come on Up or It’s on Tonight – Let’s Get Started, Rick Braun’s Beat Street – Cadillac Slim or Kisses in the Rain – Song for You and of course Dave Koz’s Saxophonic – Honey Dipped ( Some will want their sub to play the electric bass guitar on this one, eh hem, Nigel… ) to name a few. Smooth Jazz may not compel you to freak in the isles but it will undoubtedly move your body and your soul.

[RebelMan]

Interesting is what he says in paragraph 7: "..we will be adding subwoofers for those who simply want to extend the bottom end of their existing Vivid Audio systems without adding colouration as is with most competitors’ LF units today.."

A familiar site thanks Shadow. In case anyone missed it Dickie is the man that made The Nautilus. Where is its subwoofer? :W

[hd99yr]

A familiar site thanks Shadow. In case anyone missed it Dickie is the man that made The Nautilus. Where is its subwoofer? :W

I think the specs show a preference or bias to the lower end in his design. Much lower than other speakers. I don't know? Look and see what everyone thinks. Maybe someone has a different point of view.

Seems to me this speaker was intended for music and nothing else. Those of us who can't afford the Snails might want to duplicate the frequency response of the Nautilus by supplementing what we have with a high quality sub for music listening.

One could always use a very low sub cross over and not effect the upper ranges.


800D

Freq. Response 32Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 25Hz and 33kHz

801D

Freq. Response 29Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 23Hz and 33kHz

802D

Freq. Response 34Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 27Hz and 33kHz

Nautilus

Freq. Response 25Hz - 20kHz ± 0.5dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 10Hz and 25kHz

[RebelMan]

Those of us who can't afford the Snails might want to duplicate the frequency response of the Nautilus by supplementing what we have with a high quality sub for music listening.

One could always use a very low sub cross over and not effect the upper ranges.

And the appropriate slope to match and careful utilization of gain.

[yannparis]

I think the specs show a preference or bias to the lower end in his design. Much lower than other speakers. I don't know? Look and see what everyone thinks. Maybe someone has a different point of view.

Seems to me this speaker was intended for music and nothing else. Those of us who can't afford the Snails might want to duplicate the frequency response of the Nautilus by supplementing what we have with a high quality sub for music listening.

One could always use a very low sub cross over and not effect the upper ranges.


800D

Freq. Response 32Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 25Hz and 33kHz

801D

Freq. Response 29Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 23Hz and 33kHz

802D

Freq. Response 34Hz - 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 27Hz and 33kHz

Nautilus

Freq. Response 25Hz - 20kHz ± 0.5dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 10Hz and 25kHz

The main difference between and B&W 800's design is that Dickie likes pistonic behavior. So, to extend the freq range, he has used a 4 way design. B&W has wanted to keep a 3 ways system, meaning that the midrange has a large freq range to manage and is not pistonic. It is much more a bending wave transducer.
The Nautilus does not use a bass reflex port. The tapered tube load requires strong equalization. The 800's B.R. allows to keep a compact & passive design.

I think that the next Vivid loudspeaker will be a 4 ways one, more in line with the original Nautilus concept and using optimized transducer ( higher break up frequency)

Using, like I do, a 18 '' sub with a 3Ways 802d is not optimal. The 802d has been designed like a large band transducer. The 18 '' only optimizes first octaves. IF B&w decides to build a 4 way design, they will have a better result because they will be able to use, for example, a better design for the medium (pistonic motion, ..???) , thank to reduced freq range.


I have also to add that you can find low frequency everywhere. For exemple, with a piano, play a A440. First, you have 440 Hz and harmonics ( 880, etc, ...). But you have also the envelop of the note, and the envelop 'contains' lower frequency.

Regards

Yann

[bigburner]

May I suggest a smattering of Euge Grove’s Just Feels Right-Chillaxin, Chris Standring’s Soul Express – Catwalk, Norman Brown’s West Coast Coolin’ – West Coast Coolin’ , Paul Brown’s The City – Cosmic Monkey or White Sand – The Rhythm Method, Brian Coulbertson’s Come on Up – Come on Up or It’s on Tonight – Let’s Get Started, Rick Braun’s Beat Street – Cadillac Slim or Kisses in the Rain – Song for You and of course Dave Koz’s Saxophonic – Honey Dipped

Thank you. I've located all of these tracks and will listen to them tomorrow evening.

[bigburner]

Now look here old chap, I’ve listened to those Smooth Jazz tracks and as much as it pains me to tell you this, it’s definitely muzak. You can put as much lipstick on a pig as you like but it’s still a pig.

To get the best out of those tracks I experimented with the settings on my system. In the end I realised that all of them sounded best played through my subwoofer only, with the floorstanders switched off and the crossover set at 45 Hz. I find that particularly ironic given the topic of this thread.

You need to think about what Smooth Jazz is doing to your equipment RebelMan. Your plasma display has already committed suicide because it couldn’t stand that dreary noise any longer. What’s going to be next? If your speakers didn’t possess their British stiff upper lip they would have given up the ghost ages ago too.

To be fair, Smooth Jazz does have its uses. Some psychiatrists use Smooth Jazz to wean elderly people off drugs like Valium. This treatment does have its risks though. Patients who overdose on Smooth Jazz often go insane believing they’re trapped in a dentist’s waiting room.

Not everyone knows the history of Smooth Jazz. The genre started its life being called Bland but it didn’t sell very well so they pulled in a marketing guy from Saatchi’s to re-brand it. He decided to use Jazz in the title because cool people seemed to like Jazz and this sucker really needed a cool name if it was going to fly. And so the name Smooth Jazz was born.

The name Smooth Jazz does present some risks though. You have to keep your distance from Jazz enthusiasts because they get quite annoyed with the way that the word Jazz has been corrupted. Jazz is all about improvisation whereas Smooth Jazz is all about predictability. You can understand why they get so upset.

You do realise that Smooth Jazz is computer generated, don’t you? Every piece of Smooth Jazz on the planet emanates from a small software company in Palo Alto, California. Their secret is the algorithms that they have written for their Smooth Jazz Generator. If you visit them you’ll learn that the key ones are the Mass Market Appeal Algorithm (written by the bearded programmer with sandals and walk socks sitting in the corner) and the Inoffensiveness Algorithm (written by the spotty programmer sitting next to the coffee machine). Don’t be fooled by their looks. Both of those guys are millionaires now.

Now that you’ve come out of the closet and admitted to liking Smooth Jazz, just be aware that the Bad Taste Police will be looking for you RebelMan. They don’t go after every Smooth Jazz devotee because there are just too many of them, but they’re particularly interested in followers with top end hi-fi systems because that’s a real crime. With your set-up I reckon you’d get life, and you know how they’ll punish you when you’re inside don’t you? Yes, you guessed it – Smooth Jazz from dawn to dusk. Deafness is a merciful release for the lucky ones.

America has such a great musical heritage. With a few small exceptions, the best Blues, Gospel, Jazz, Soul, R&B, Bluegrass, Folk, Country and Rock’n’Roll come from America, so there’s no excuse for listening to elevator music if you’re from the USA. In New Zealand we can only dream about the large number of wonderful musicians who tour the length and breadth of your country all year round.

So it’s time to file Messrs. Koz, Culbertson, Standring and company in the big round filing cabinet outside your back door, escape your comfort zone, and get yourself some real music before it’s too late. You know you want to.

Nigel.

PS. George, India, Norah – if you’re reading this post then I apologise for my earlier mistake.

[dknightd]

In the end I realised that all of them sounded best played through my subwoofer only, with the floorstanders switched off and the crossover set at 45 Hz.

LOL. That is mean :W :rofl:

[bigburner]

LOL. That is mean :W :rofl:

Well, mean in a slightly humorous way I hope.

[hd99yr]

Well, mean in a slightly humorous way I hope.

Very humorous!!!! :T

[Russ L]

Now look here old chap, I’ve listened to those Smooth Jazz tracks and as much as it pains me to tell you this, it’s definitely muzak. You can put as much lipstick on a pig as you like but it’s still a pig.

To get the best out of those tracks I experimented with the settings on my system. In the end I realised that all of them sounded best played through my subwoofer only, with the floorstanders switched off and the crossover set at 45 Hz. I find that particularly ironic given the topic of this thread.

You need to think about what Smooth Jazz is doing to your equipment RebelMan. Your plasma display has already committed suicide because it couldn’t stand that dreary noise any longer. What’s going to be next? If your speakers didn’t possess their British stiff upper lip they would have given up the ghost ages ago too.

:rofl: Hilarious... :roflmao: that post deserves an HT Guide award. :clap: When is Lex handing them out this year? -Russ

[ssabripo]

LOL! :rofl: :rofl:

how on earth did I miss this "gem" of a thread???!! 8O

[ssabripo]

Well, I'm of the camp that for those who have never heard a "good" and "accurate" subwoofer, don't really know what they are missing in terms of musicality.


A quad avalanche 18" setup, or an 8 x Tumult 15" setup, with Variable Q, L/T to extend the extension into infrasonics, and adjustable rolloff, is what I'm talking about here. Or even an ultra Large Low Tuned EBS alignment (some call it "LLT"s).

My pair of Avalanche 18" in a 650L enclosure, tuned to 12.5hz, powered by a crown K2, has added more to my musical experience with my 802's than anything I could have added thus far (sans the Proceed AVP2+6's amazing processing):

[RebelMan]

Listen up old man, it saddens me to see you fall victim to narrow minded ostensiblitis. It's a pitiful affliction and an unfortunate state of mental confusion that causes one to associate Smooth Jazz to Muzak in a manner akin to linking Bluegrass to Folk. Perhaps another dose of reality can easy your pain? Smooth Jazz is a progressive art form with contemporary influences from urban artists. It breaks away from traditional improvisational Jazz but its roots can be traced back to classic legends. Absent from the scenes are the waxy lip colored pigs you facetiously referred to.

Apparently when you conducted your little experiment you neglected to use the megaphone that should have accompanied your system when you sampled the test discs. At your tender age, 14 years my senior, your dealer should have included this instrument for free. It takes a competent ear to hear the music for which you are undoubtedly unaccustomed to. Given the experience your back-end has received in recent months it stands to reason that subsonic renditions are the requisite here. I find this particularly predictable given the context of your posts of late.

On your next visit, convey to your psychiatrist that the good people here are helping the elderly to overcome their reliance on drug induced stimuli with Smooth Jazz recommendations. Only caveat is the excessive use of the treatment may lead to piriformis syndrome for patients with certain auditory disabilities that chose not to use their prescribed hearing apparatus.

Indeed not everyone really knows the history of Smooth Jazz. The marketing guy was none other than Creed Taylor who worked with crossover artists like George Benson, Grover Washington, Jr. and Patrick Bruce Metheny. Taylor's company floundered but the Jazz subgenera persevered and went on to became an artistic and commercial success. It wasn't the cool name that made the artists, it was the artists that made the name cool. Any remorseful feelings come from the economics of doing business not by the choice of melodies. Publish good work or parish is the motto of most corporate entities. As an IT manager you should know something about productivity, no?

I realize that Smooth Jazz talent comes in variety of vocal, acoustic, electric and synthesized forms which makes for a interesting and diverse repertoire. Kudos to the the genre for developing a large following as a result. If computer programming were involved I would think that would place you in the pompous group of esoteric hypocrites given your chosen profession or have you retired?

If anyone comes looking for me chances are they won't find me here. I'll be on a Smooth Jazz cruise celebrating with the very artists that made a great genre possible. Unfortunately, our itinerary doesn't include a stop to the lilly pad you call home bigburner. The boat isn't looking for destitute souls in need of a place to drown their sorrows. There will be no personalities who's only interests are for political fanfare nor will there be time for deep thoughts and personal reflections of time lost from bluegrass grandstanding.

The real shame comes with knowing the neglect one has shown their ears from all the years of abuse. Fortunately for you, your recent sampling of Smooth Jazz talent piped through those CDM9NT's fell on lucky deaf ears proving that the time is right for you to give thanks for your self inflicted gift. I'm certain the promoters of the Body Worlds tour have just seen an increase in their luck too. Missing from the show when it toured our neighborhood was a tympanic membrane perforation specimen for which I suspect you could provide.

America is filled with a lot of great musical talent and the respect among artists is shared across all forms regardless of popularity and market appeal. A genuine music lover knows this respect but others will be jaded by other self-serving genre's with evangelical overtones for which they have succumbed to, the real crime. Personal vindication will only be served when you finally toss those Smooth Jazz test discs into your filing cabinet and that familiar resonant thud you fancy permeates the air.

By the way, India.Arie and Norah Jones don't have the time to read much less accept any apologies. India has been preocuppied with Dave Koz on his latest CD and Norah is on tour here in the Valley of the Sun. :B

[RebelMan]

Well, mean in a slightly humorous way I hope.

The feelings are mutual. :W

[dmccombs]

Fight, fight.... :frypan:

[dmccombs]

Anyway... I got to demo the JL audio F112 sub this last weekend. I tested it with my 802D and SMS-1 EQ.

It took a bit of work to get it to blend well. Once blended, I would say there was an overall improvement. The 802D had to do a little less work which gave the mids and highs a bit more of an airy sound. the bass was still clean, crisp, and now more authoratative, without drawing notice to the sub itself.

I think the key is finding a sub that is as good of quality as your speakers, and is quick. Blending can be time consuming, but when achieved, it is worthwhile.

Now I need to finalize on a sub. The servos seem quick. 10"-13" drivers seem like a good match for the 802D. And I will keep the SMS-1 for integration.

I can see where many people would try a sub and say it is not as good overall. If you get the wrong sub and don't get it blended right, then running full range will provide better results.

BTW, my feedback comes with a money back guarantee...

[RebelMan]

My thoughts of those that think they need a subwoofer to make their full range B&W's sing would be a dearth of high-qualty, high-end demo gear in the area to review. I spent some part of my weekend checking out an all McIntosh frontend to a pair of 802D. I'll have more to say about this visit later but for now I will some up one part of my experience here... the bass performace was (surprisingly) superb! No subwoofer could ever have done more justice to the audition. My simple advice is get out and demo some quality equipment people! Your B&Ws definitely deserve it. :T

[dmccombs]

Rebel,

I do agree with you in theory, but I will play the Devil's Advocate for a moment.

Good Sub = $3000
Dearth of High Quaility, High End Electronics = $More,000


I do have decent electronics (although not McIntosh - I have a Halcro Prepro and Classe MonoBlocks), but a sub still helped the overall sound (to my ears, in my room).

Regards,
Darrell

My thoughts of those that think they need a subwoofer to make their full range B&W's sing would be a dearth of high-qualty, high-end demo gear in the area to review. I spent some part of my weekend checking out an all McIntosh frontend to a pair of 802D. I'll have more to say amount this visit later but for now I will some up one part of my experience here... the bass performace was (surprisingly) superb! No subwoofer could ever have done more justice to the audition. My simple advice is get out and demo some quality equipment people! Your B&Ws definitely deserve it. :T

[RebelMan]

Darrell, I am a Classe' whore so for me to embellish on McIntosh (w/B&Ws) is really saying something. I'll have plenty to say as all is not perfect in the other world. Nonetheless, their low frequency producing tubes (yep TUBES!!!) left an indelible mark.

[jericho]

I'm using McIntosh 1201's on the 800D's and I can tell you those two asw855 make a big difference, I even decided to add a pair of asw825 as soon as possible to my setup!

Some music is better in two channel direct, other I prefer to add some more bass so I use the subs through my processor MX-135.
It's just a matter of personal taste :T

[yannparis]

I agree My 802d could not match my Velo 18'' for lower bass. It is a physical limitation, not just an opinion. A servo long-throw 18'' has the ability to produce deeper and louder bass with lower distorsion
Looking at the 800D THD figures, at 50 Hz, the THD is at -30db!. It is worse at 20Hz with -20db ( source: 800D White paper B&W). -20db represents 10%, -30db represents -3%. I think that these measures are made at 90db SPL.

These figures means that the loudspeaker is no longer linear, so you have intermodulation, ie new non harmonic frequencies 'created' and compression. And it is not limited to the lower frequencies. When the loudspeaker is in a non linear zone, all the frequencies reproduced support distortions.
A subwoofer allows the woofer of the 802D to work in its linear zone, lowering the distorsion

Regards,

Yann - Paris - France

[RebelMan]

B&W is a great loudspeaker company because their research is based on proven engineering methodologies and principles and they make no reservations publishing the results of their work. The information that Yann points to is readily available but the interpretation of the data requires clarification.

Audio distortion is simply put a change to the original signal, generally not a good thing. It is frequently quantified as Total Harmonic Distortion (THD). THD is the summation of all harmonic distortion at a given frequency. Harmonic distortion occurs at multiples of the first harmonic but it does not include the first harmonic which is the fundamental frequency.

For instance, if the first harmonic occurred at 10Hz the second harmonic will occur at 20Hz and the third at 30Hz and the forth at 40Hz and so on. If another fundamental frequency (first harmonic) occurred at 15Hz, the second harmonic would be 30Hz followed by the third harmonic at 45Hz and then the forth at 60Hz and so on. The second and third harmonics at 30Hz from the preceeding examples would combine to form THD.

The harmonics at a specific frequency are measured for their intensity and, in this case, quantified in decibels (dB). By summing all of the harmonic intensities produced at say 40Hz the THD can be derived from the fundamental frequency that occurs simultaneously. (In practice, B&W publishes measurements for the second and third harmonics.)

For example using the data contained in the 800D white paper we see the THD at 40Hz registers about -28dB. The fundamental frequency at 40Hz registers about -1dB give or take (I am using integers for simplification so my calculations will have a margin of error). According to my calculations THD is about 4.5% at 40Hz which means that percentage of the original signal (the fundament frequency) is distorted.

So why is THD important and how do I interpret the results? It’s important because everyone is born with precision audio instruments… their ears. Your ears are quite capable of detecting distortion levels above 1%. With THD levels below 1% you are less likely to perceive harmonic distortion. But a THD specification alone is not enough to gauge the distortion levels of the speaker or subwoofer in question.

For proper interpretation THD MUST be accompanied by the frequency spectrum from which the HIGHEST THD occurs, NOT the lowest at any one particular frequency point. Looking at the servo based (a.k.a. distortion reducing) Velodyne DD-18 specifications we see harmonic distortion is “typically” less than 0.5%. But which harmonic are they referring to and at what frequencies? Nothing is said in their literature making the specification useless.

So what is the point? The point is that adding a subwoofer produces more audible mid-bass and upper bass distortion than it compensates for at the low bass registers of a full range loudspeaker. Integrating a subwoofer and plotting a flat response will tell you nothing about the harmonic distortion levels present in the room. How are you dealing with the harmonics created by the subwoofer that carry into the mid and upper bass regions? Equipping subwoofers with some means of controlling slopes and attenuation is not enough because more complex intermodulation distortion, that Yann eluded earlier, will creep in and bass discontinuities will become more prevelant offsetting the benefits.

To elaborate let's continue with the 40Hz example from above. We see that second and third harmonics occur from lower fundamental frequencies. We can determine the fundamental frequencies of the second harmonic by dividing 40Hz by 2 which is 20Hz and the third harmonic by dividing 40Hz by 3 which is about 13Hz. This means 4.5% THD occurring at 40Hz is coming from sub-bass frequencies which the 800D was not designed to do and where virtually no energy is present in music and thus irrelevant information.

However, if we examine the THD at 80Hz we see a different story. THD is calculated to be about 0.3% which is below the threshold of audibility. The fundamental frequencies occurring at 40Hz (for the second harmonic) and 26Hz (for the third harmonic) is low bass that the 800D is capable of producing and with a relatively flat response between -1dB and -3dB according to the plot.

So even if we assume the distortion specification that Velodyne provides in their literature were true (which it definitely is not) for the entire bandwidth at 0.5% it is still higher than the 0.45% that B&W actually publishes for the entire range of 45Hz-100kHz frequencies. The situation is exacerbated at higher crossover frequencies where subwoofers have an even greater propensity to produce harmonic distortion which is ironic given that frequency bound loudspeakers are the ones that need them most.

[yannparis]

I agree with U RM, it requires clarification.

First, THD is not a simple summation but the RMS voltage equivalent of total harmonic distortion power, as a percentage of the total output RMS voltage. For a loudspeaker, we should have the frequency, the figure and the SPL as THD increases with this parameter. Ex the THD at 20 Hz is the RMS sum of the level at 40, 60, .... A thd spectrum is illustrated on the DD18 review link.

THD is not very useful, it is more important to have the figure for each harmonic. If I have a sinusoidal signal at 20 Hz, It is very important to have the level of each harmonic, 40, 60, 80, 100 Hz, etc... using this data I can describe the transfer function ( simple trigonometry). The tranfer function describe the behavior of our loudspeaker. A perfect one will have the following form : Output= k* Input. This is never the case so the transfer function is a polynom. and this polynom describe the fact that the loudspeaker is not linear: its moves are not linear with the input voltage.
Depending of the coefficient we obtain the different harmonics for a pure sinusoidal, one frequency. A non linear system also generate non harmonic frequencies. If you put two different frequencies in a non linear system, it will create new frequencies! This is generaly names intermodulation but it is generates by the same non linearity. And there is a bonus this new frequencies can tune with the bass reflex resonance fequency or the loudspeaker one givong this famous 'one note' sound.
( I can describe the math if required)


We have a lot of figures describing the behavior of DD-18.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...03-part-2.html

A very low frequency isdifficult for a sub because it requires a long move, and the system is less linear ( due for exemple to the fact that the air compression is not linear !)

At 100db SPL, 15 Hz, the THD of a DD18 is 3%! or -30db.

Looking at the graph, We have a fundamental at 100 db, then -30db for the 2cd and third harmonics, then -50 db for 4 and 5... This is VERY low at very High level.100 db SPL. The DD18 generates very very low high order harmonics.


My opinion is that testing THD at 90 db SPL for the low bass is not realistic. It is a low level. To have good ideas of the behavior of the loudspeaker under heavy charge, we have to get figures at 100 db for ex.
Besides this, We see that the THD jump bellow 50 Hz showing that we are at the limit of linear behavior. If we increase the level, we will strongly increase the THD at higher frequency. It is not due to poor design but to physical limitation of small loudspeaker.

To have this behavior, you need a large loudspeaker with long throw and a servo. If we take the measure like B&W at 90 db SPL, we will have much lower figures.

Is it important to have a good behavior, at low frequency ? I have a lot of modern records with a lot of energy between 15 and 50 Hz. The 802D loudspeaker is less linear than the DD18 so it generates much more harmonics ans intermodulation . As my DD18 reproduces lower frequency, my 802D 's loudspeakers have short - more linear travel - and in turn, they generate less distorsion are they are more linear for small move. This is also true for frtequency above 80Hz because the 802Ds no longer process lower frequency.

I would like to highlght the fact that at high frequency, A DD Velodyne sub produces less THD. See the review. This is due to the fact that the loudspeaker works in a more linear zone at higher frequency because its move is strongly reduced



Regards,

Yann, Paris - France

[RebelMan]

First, THD is not a simple summation but the RMS voltage equivalent of total harmonic distortion power, as a percentage of the total output RMS voltage. For a loudspeaker, we should have the frequency, the figure and the SPL as THD increases with this parameter.

THD is simply the summation of harmonic powers divided by the fundamental frequency power. B&W expressed THD in dB not RMS voltages. The calculations I performed was based on data extrapolated from the THD curve and converted into a percent for a meaningful explanation.

THD is not very useful, it is more important to have the figure for each harmonic. If I have a sinusoidal signal at 20 Hz, It is very important to have the level of each harmonic, 40, 60, 80, 100 Hz, etc... using this data I can describe the transfer function ( simple trigonometry). The tranfer function describe the behavior of our loudspeaker. A perfect one will have the following form : Output= k* Input. This is never the case so the transfer function is a polynom. and this polynom describe the fact that the loudspeaker is not linear: its moves are not linear with the input voltage.

I agree that THD is insufficient when referenced alone but is nonetheless useful otherwise. THD+N would be better as it includes intermodulation distortion as well.

Depending of the coefficient we obtain the different harmonics for a pure sinusoidal, one frequency. A non linear system also generate non harmonic frequencies. If you put two different frequencies in a non linear system, it will create new frequencies! This is generaly names intermodulation but it is generates by the same non linearity. And there is a bonus this new frequencies can tune with the bass reflex resonance fequency or the loudspeaker one givong this famous 'one note' sound.

Indeed, but intermodulation is unavoidable and increases with increasing numbers of drivers.

(I can describe the math if required)

If you can mathematically demonstrate less distortion occurs with your B&W’s and Velodyne than your B&W’s alone using actual low frequency data (not sub frequency data) then I eagerly await your input.

We have a lot of figures describing the behavior of DD-18.
….
My opinion is that testing THD at 90 db SPL for the low bass is not realistic. It is a low level. To have good ideas of the behavior of the loudspeaker under heavy charge, we have to get figures at 100 db for ex.
…
To have this behavior, you need a large loudspeaker with long throw and a servo. If we take the measure like B&W at 90 db SPL, we will have much lower figures.

John Johnson (JJ) does a pretty good job analyzing the THD+N aspects of the DD-18 and at first glance it would seem his measurements could be comparable to B&W’s but they are not. He took measurements at 4”, B&W took theirs at 1 meter which is a difference of 19.9dB. In other words, his tests are equivalent to an 80dB test at 1 meter which is 10dB lower than B&W’s. The figures for distortion will be higher with the DD-18 not lower.

Is it important to have a good behavior, at low frequency ? I have a lot of modern records with a lot of energy between 15 and 50 Hz.

What are you listening to that dips below 31.5Hz?

I would like to highlght the fact that at high frequency, A DD Velodyne sub produces less THD. See the review. This is due to the fact that the loudspeaker works in a more linear zone at higher frequency because its move is strongly reduced.

Again it will be higher, not lower. The tests were conducted with a 10dB deficit. Even without the 10dB difference the B&W’s pull lower distortion levels by a factor of 2.

I would like to point out what JJ says at the begining of his article...

Moving the servo-feedback to a lower setting produced more of a boomy sound that some people like, but I do not. (The boominess is a manifestation of more harmonic distortion.) So, regardless of the other parameters, I would use servo-feedback set at 8 for all Presets.

Subwoofers are great for producing subsonic frequences because that's what they were designed to do and with less distortion than full-range loudspeakers. However, they are not designed to produce mid-bass frequencies. I know people like the sound effects subwoofers make in an integrated environment for stereo reproduction and that is perfecty fine. Some people are use to this distorion and don't realize it or they cannot detect it and therefore don't care. Rest assured there's plenty in there.

There has been only one occasion when I falsely suspected a subwoofer was used in a two-channel setup. My eyes kept telling me there had to be but my ears kept telling me there wasn't. It turned out my ears were right. Amazing what a pair of $22K two-way's can sound like in the right room with the right gear.

[yannparis]

Sorry for being late RM,

I will give more detail in many posts as the subjects are complex and numerous.

First, I would like to describe what is the underlying nature of harmonic distortion.
Harmonic distortion is the fruit of non linear system. Here, a loudspeaker. the input ( voltage) and the output ( db) have not a linear relatinship. It can also be a transistor or any mechanical or electrical thing.

Demonstration.
A static transfer function can be described by a polynom like this one:
y = a0 + a1x + a2x^2 + a3x^3 + a4x^4 + ...

If the input is a sinewave (represented by θ) and if we want to catch a 5% second harmonic, we have to write the relation between this second harmonic (2θ) and the polynom. It is easy as we can write cos2θ = 2(cosθ)^2 – 1.
The equation is now: y =– 0.05 + x + 0.1*x^2

We can do the same calculation for the next harmonics and calculate all the factor of our polynom.

==> we have demonstrate that the harmonic distortion is the effect of a non linear transfer function.

We are not fortunate because a true system is a bit more complicated and the function will have more parameters but this is the general form of the equation. It is good for a static transfer function

Mathematical Consequences:
> If we mitigate two sinewave with different frequencies we will have intermodulation and new non multiple frequencies ( very aggressive)
> IF We have only one frequency, we will have ONLY harmonics ( no intermodulation at all)

Using this demonstration, we now know that the harmonics say that our loudspeaker is a non linear system.

The physic explains why:
the motor of our loudspeaker is not linear ( magnetic filed is not constant, coil temperature modifies is resistance, variation of the coil inductance, cone suspension is not linear, neither is air compression, ...)

But the main factor of non linearity is the length of the displacement because the previous factors are dependant of it. In other words, around the equilibrium position of the cone, the moves are nearly linear ==> weak harmonic distortion. That mean that the best thing to do to limit the distortion (using the same structure) is to reduce the displacement of the cone. Doing so we have to compensate using a larger cone.

==> This is why large loudspeakers have lower distortion, all things being equals

(to be continued )


Regards

YAnn, Paris - France

[Kobus]

y = a0 + a1x + a2x^2 + a3x^3 + a4x^4 + ...
cos2θ = 2(cosθ)^2 – 1.
y =– 0.05 + x + 0.1*x^2

I always knew there would be a simple answer.

Kobus

[wgriel]

I always knew there would be a simple answer.

Kobus

LOL! yeah this thread is getting a wee bit too technical for me 8O

However, carry on boys - I'm definitely learning things and enjoying the exchanges.

Bill

[hd99yr]

Yep, it's time to kick the sleeping dog, wake this thread up and proclaim --- I"M A CONVERT!!

I recently had the good fortune to demo two different amplifier brands. This was done in stereo and no sub-woofer. Hate to use the N word because I know better but here it goes. I will never use a sub-woofer for stereo again.


--------------------- BUT --------------------

I have 802D's. I know 804's need a sub-woofer for my taste as I've tried them and they don't have the bass drivers to make deep bass. With B&W speakers I can't see the diamonds needing a sub-woofer for stereo. But everything else probably needs one to duplicate the sound and experience of the diamond series speakers.

For those of you who were and are like me and thought a sub-woofer was necessary because you never owned a speaker that has the balls of the 802D I Highly recommend trying it without a sub-woofer.

Just one persons opinion :B

[pbarach]

it depends WHICH B&W speakers

I have 704's and there is no low bass to speak of. They just don't produce it. I doubt if the 703's are any better, whatever other improvements they may offer. So in my music system, I have an M&K sub crossed over at 60 Hz and get a relatively flat response down into the 25-30 Hz range. Being able to place the sub for flattest bass would not be possible if the 704's were the source of those low frequencies.

Maybe the 802D's make sufficient bass to do without a sub, but not the 7-series.

If you cross over below about 80 Hz, you won't be able to localize the sub as a separate sound source.

[beden1]

This has been an interesting and eye opening discussion throughout. My interest in listening to recorded music started while I was a kid back in the 1960's. In putting a system together back in the early days, your number one priority was to buy the best main speakers that you could afford, and that were capable of truthfully reproducing the full spectrum of sound.

During college in the early 1970's, I bought my first decent stereo setup in a Dynaco. When I got my first career job out of college, I bought a Marantz 250 amp, and separates coupled with my ADS 910 reference speakers (that I still own today in another setup). The Marantz graduated to McIntosh separates along the way, and then (sorry) to surround sound receivers to appease my growing family (ease of use). Prior to moving into an HT setup, listening to music (live and pre-recorded) was one of my favorite past times.

Sometime in the late 1980's, I started to incorporate a center channel speaker, surround speakers, and sub woofers with a receiver. Listening to music kind of took a back seat to watching movies with the family in surround sound. This was a period when the manufacturers were also telling us that we only really needed bookshelf speakers and a sub woofer to satisfy all of our sound needs. Fortunately, I never totally bought into this direction, and maintained the use of my main speakers as my system anchor.

Throughout this discussion, and in reading RebelMan's position on this matter, I realized that I really stopped listening to music, for music's sake, when I got into using surround sound receivers and speakers, and along with sub woofers to recreate the dynamic lows that the movie directors were enhancing. The more I pondered this, the more I was intrigued to go back to the fundamentals to hear if he was right.

So, I incorporated a Classe CP-500 stereo pre-amp and a Sony SCD-XA9000ES CD player into my system . . . to use purely for stereo music listening through my B&W 803D main speakers. (for HT, this system also has dual Velodyne 15' subs, and 703 surrounds and an HTM1 center speaker . . . with the front channel speakers powered by a Classe CAV-150 amp, and surround through a Pioneer Elite receiver).

After spending a month listening to this enhanced two channel setup, I personally experienced two primary things that have been stated in this forum: 1.) that quality electronics are a key element in truly reproducing recorded music 2.) that RebelMan is correct, in that I did not need the subs to truly reproduce the recorded music as it was performed by the artist.

Only in a rare instance where I was listening to a piece with a pipe organ, did I feel some of the lows were missing. (and in this case, my ADS 910s with dual 12" woofers in my other setup, would have been able to reproduce the lowest of the lows on that recording).

I also experienced that my 803Ds came alive. The highs were now lively and accurate, and not dull as I had been hearing beforehand. And, the lows had a defined punch, and were fully capable of reproducing the full spectrum of music (except as where noted). The voices and instrumentation was now crisp, yet smooth and very pleasant, particularly while listening to female vocals. When listening to rock genres, the 803Ds were exactly as I had previously auditioned, in that they were fast and decisive.

All-in-all, I got spoiled truly listening to music again after many years, and in fact, rarely was I using the full HT system to watch TV or movies. It was a purely pleasureable experience.

Thanks RebelMan for reacquainting me to music listening. I will now be only using my subs for their intended purpose of reproducing HT.

[ShadowZA]

I concur with the view that, for critical music listening, no sub is needed over and above decent (whatever this may be defined as) full-range floor standers.

An opinion I have is that if you feel that the music in question is not providing you with adequate sub bass, then just maybe such sub bass (or even bass) is not intended. Of course, who's to say that the recording is not up to standard and that more bass should have been included thus precipitating the need to "add" a sub. That ... is beyond the scope of my intended discussion. What I do, in supporting my love of the smooth jazz genre, is try to enjoy and support those artists who do produce good quality recordings.

I compared two smooth jazz pieces, played through my 803D's only; one generated copious amounts of bass (and quite possibly sub bass too). This was "Gotcha" from Patricia Barber's CD "Live - A fortnight in France". The other, "Corcovado" from Jim Tomlinson's CD "The Lyric" had far less bass ... and yet what WAS there was sufficient and satisfying to me.

I experimented by changing the audio signal path from the Krell's pre-amp to the processor and included the sub. It was not good. The music lost its focus and sounded bloated (over accentuated sub bass) and truthless. How's that for a new buzzword :lol: . Hold tight ... here comes another one .... it also lost it's bouquet. Forgive me, I'm on a roll. :lol:

But hey, that's my opinion.

I have quite a few music DVD's which I play through the home theatre system using the sub. That's ok. I do not consider this to be equivalent to critical and focused listening sessions of studio recordings on CD.

To me, the best format for critical music listening still remains the good ol' redbook CD.

[Russ L]

Best thing I ever did was take my sub out. Better overall imaging and SQ. Like Rebelman said it may be that extra crossover. Or all that extra speaker wire(my 2 cent theory). It could be the blend of brand of sub with B&W mains. Isn't 40Hz low enough? My B&Ws aren't polite with the bass when I throw on a CD with alot of bass. Try Billy Talent! I found different speaker wires make a big difference with the quality and amount of bass. Whatever it is my ears are happier. :T

[NMG]

For what it's worth, I find my 703's perfectly acceptable for most material. For much of the hip hop that I listen to, however, a sub is simply essential to experience the music the way it was intended. And that's with having it dialed in properly. I DON'T like boomy bass . . .

[RebelMan]

I have 704's and there is no low bass to speak of. They just don't produce it. I doubt if the 703's are any better, whatever other improvements they may offer. So in my music system, I have an M&K sub crossed over at 60 Hz and get a relatively flat response down into the 25-30 Hz range. Being able to place the sub for flattest bass would not be possible if the 704's were the source of those low frequencies.

Maybe the 802D's make sufficient bass to do without a sub, but not the 7-series.

True, it matters which speakers we speak of. That's why the scope of this topic was limited to the class of "full range" loudspeakers which includes your 704s, if barely. But your speakers needn't appear incapable of making "any" low bass. Of course they have their limits but you have some alternative to subwoofers.

Similar to hd99yr's experience with the 804s, I found the low bass of my 803S a bit lean with the Rotel equipment that I was using. Much of that changed considerablly when I moved up to Classe'. The Classe' equipment boosted my 803S to the limits of their lowband ability and the results were exceedingly gratifying. And while subwoofers would have enhanced the bottom-end further I didn't find the additional colorations worth the trade off.

So, if you haven't experimented with equipment lately, you should consider that more potential maybe hidden inside those 704s just itching to be tapped.

[RebelMan]

Thanks RebelMan for reacquainting me to music listening. I will now be only using my subs for their intended purpose of reproducing HT.

Likewise, to you and hd99yr for having an open mind and the willingness to explore your options. :T