XT Series Setup Questions

[DarkZ]

i dont know why you think your system is not hi end. It is to me. How do XTs sound powered by the 1077?

sorry if I offended you man, I was just in comparing with the Big b&W Prestige , god that thing could shake up my world if I own one. it just seems like the standards here in the audio forums are much higher than I expected, but with the 1077, it powered my speaker pretty clean, I been sitting on my couch all nite just to listen the quality, nothing more I can say. :T

[Nolan B]

sorry if I offended you man, I was just in comparing with the Big b&W Prestige , god that thing could shake up my world if I own one. it just seems like the standards here in the audio forums are much higher than I expected, but with the 1077, it powered my speaker pretty clean, I been sitting on my couch all nite just to listen the quality, nothing more I can say. :T

im not offended at all. I am justing saying that your system probably performs great. I have the 1077 and love it.

[WI Rotel]

I LIKE The dark XT's look great! We need some sound evaluations! Your acoustic issues are different from mine, I also have a rectangular space but my speakers lie against the long side of the room. If your XTs sound a little boomy try to move them away from the corners and rear wall a little bit. Remember, if you feel you're lacking the deeppest notes, (you might in movies) a PV1 is an excellent and well matched addition.
BTW, if you want to enjoy HD video forget the PS2 you can just buy the HDDVD drive for the 360 (200 bucks) the results are simply outstanding. Also, the 360 is a bitching regular DVD player if you use the component video and digital audio connection. Many congratulations!

[Nolan B]

I LIKE The dark XT's look great! We need some sound evaluations! Your acoustic issues are different from mine, I also have a rectangular space but my speakers lie against the long side of the room. If your XTs sound a little boomy try to move them away from the corners and rear wall a little bit. Remember, if you feel you're lacking the deeppest notes, (you might in movies) a PV1 is an excellent and well matched addition.
BTW, if you want to enjoy HD video forget the PS2 you can just buy the HDDVD drive for the 360 (200 bucks) the results are simply outstanding. Also, the 360 is a bitching regular DVD player if you use the component video and digital audio connection. Many congratulations!

he has the PV1 doesnt he?

Also regarding the recomendation for the 360..its a good one. Stay tuned as a xbox 360 update is coming in may which will increase the quality of sound by unlocking the dynamic range in the player.

[DarkZ]

I LIKE The dark XT's look great! We need some sound evaluations! Your acoustic issues are different from mine, I also have a rectangular space but my speakers lie against the long side of the room. If your XTs sound a little boomy try to move them away from the corners and rear wall a little bit. Remember, if you feel you're lacking the deeppest notes, (you might in movies) a PV1 is an excellent and well matched addition.
BTW, if you want to enjoy HD video forget the PS2 you can just buy the HDDVD drive for the 360 (200 bucks) the results are simply outstanding. Also, the 360 is a bitching regular DVD player if you use the component video and digital audio connection. Many congratulations!

I believe I put the speakers pretty close to each other, so the sound field is tight! I like to hear the sound right beside the speakers, so I can really hear the performance the speakers produced. Not sure why, but i have been fall into sleep with my wine while listen to the XTs, I just cant complaint!

I have a ps3 on the other side, and Im waiting for the black xbox 360 coming out so I can finally have everything dark!

oh, I do have the PV1.

[WI Rotel]

I believe I put the speakers pretty close to each other, so the sound field is tight! I like to hear the sound right beside the speakers, so I can really hear the performance the speakers produced. Not sure why, but i have been fall into sleep with my wine while listen to the XTs, I just cant complaint!

I have a ps3 on the other side, and Im waiting for the black xbox 360 coming out so I can finally have everything dark!

oh, I do have the PV1.

Where did you place the sub? More pics 8) How's the 1077 handling high volumes? C'mon we need a nice long review

[WI Rotel]

he has the PV1 doesnt he?

Also regarding the recomendation for the 360..its a good one. Stay tuned as a xbox 360 update is coming in may which will increase the quality of sound by unlocking the dynamic range in the player.

Vancouver, I have not noticed any range limitations with the 360. DVDA discs (encoded in 5.1 or DTS since the 360 does not do true DVDA) sound fabulous. Of course, I'm using the optical digital output not the RCA outs.

[DarkZ]

Where did you place the sub? More pics 8) How's the 1077 handling high volumes? C'mon we need a nice long review

I placed the pictures in this topic here. Pictures

I havent really punch the speaker yet, trying to warm them up little bit right now, but i will write an review when i am fully tested with her

[WI Rotel]

Sweeeet!

[Nolan B]

Vancouver, I have not noticed any range limitations with the 360. DVDA discs (encoded in 5.1 or DTS since the 360 does not do true DVDA) sound fabulous. Of course, I'm using the optical digital output not the RCA outs.

you may not notice the dynamic range limitations, but they are there and have been comfirmed by MS. The update is promissed for early to mid spring.

[Edwin]

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree.

Most of the distortion that comes from playing loud is from overdriven drivers not overdriven and clipping amps; clipping will of course cause distortion and even damaged tweeters but it happens a lot less than people think IMO.

Take an SPL meter (really, buy one they are most useful and enlightening) and play some music that peaks at 98dB in your listening position. In most reasonable sized rooms with reasonably sensitive speakers I would be surprised if this would take more than 32W - worse case load on my 804S and I can do it with 16W into 4 Ohms @ 3M and I'm not even adding room or stereo reinforcement to this calculation.

98dB peaks at the listening position are very loud, in fact, if that were the average level you'd certainly be in danger of damaging your hearing with long exposure - the only qualification I will put in here is that the lower the frequency the less sensitive we are and the higher the levels we can tolerate without danger of damage.

So, IMO, trying to reproduce concert levels in the home is a little over the top and unnecessary - not unless you have hearing damage already from listening to too many live concerts and clubbing too much. Also, a lot of speakers just distort at those levels so the only thing you gain is bad sound anyway.

Common Misconceptions about hearing

Just for reference - Last week I heard a pair of $60,000 JBL Everest that were attached to 4kW amps (2 x McIntosh MC2KW) playing very loud and peaking at well over 100dB. The Macs were reporting only 20 or 30W used per channel. They still sounded too loud to listen to for any length of time and somehow I don't think there was any distortion to speak of...

Also be aware that most modern day amps (even those in receivers) can deal with transient peaks well in excess of their RMS power rating and that extremely few multi-channel amplifiers have real world "all channels driven" ratings and none that make much sense, particularly when taking into account modern program material which doesn't require all channels to be driven to the same levels simultaneously (unless you like listening to multi-channel mono playing test tones ).

But it's all good.

Hi scanido,

From the research that I've done an orchestra in a concert hall produces 100 dB – 110 dB of SPL. A loud rock band in a concert hall produces 115 db – 120 dB of SPL. Apparently in many countries including the U.S. 120 dB is the maximum SPL permitted by law at a public performance.

So why does an SPL of well under 100 dB of SPL sound too loud on many home music systems when the 110 dB of SPL that the orchestra produces in a concert hall sound OK? The reason is that the 110 dB SPL that the orchestra produces in the concert hall is undistorted sound and therefore doesn’t sound too loud.

In the average home music system distortion is caused by a lack of dynamic headroom, and it’s this distortion that makes the music sound too loud. This distortion gradually increases as the amplifier approaches its output limits. This is usually the point where we turn the volume down even though after we’ve done this the music doesn’t sound quite loud enough.

The way to remove the distortion and increase the dynamic headroom is to use an amplifier that has more power, possibly much more power. The good news is that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. It’s little amplifiers driven into clipping that burn out speakers.

The bottom line is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers are the only way to approximate real-life (concert) loudness levels and produce the thrilling dynamics that we experience with live music. That's why I'm particularly interested in the Rotel RB-1092 because it looks like a cost effective way of achieving this objective.

Nigel.

[WI Rotel]

[extremely few[/i] multi-channel amplifiers have real world "all channels driven" ratings and none that make much sense, particularly when taking into account modern program material which doesn't require all channels to be driven to the same levels simultaneously (unless you like listening to multi-channel mono playing test tones ).

But it's all good.[/QUOTE]

All true, however, some manufacturers DO report true "all channels driven" 20-20K figures, For example...... ROTEL! All you have said is true, but distributing power aound leads to switching distortion and low damping factor, thus, muddy,less than clear reproduction. As you have well pointed out the amp is more often than not operating at a few watts, however,transient peaks demand exponential increases in power, thus if you are driving a system at high levels with a surround system (at least 5 speakers) in modes such as 5 channel stereo (my favorite and not trully a surround mode at all), a less than optimal power supply (AKA all receivers and some separate amps) will suffer clipping distortion in a heartbeat, and as we have all pointed out, clipping will kill speakers in a very expedient manner. You are completely correct that for most home situations most amps are sufficient, but, if you are of a demanding nature and like to occasionally drive your tunes to high levels you need serious amplification, more specifically, with VERY inefficient speakers like the XT's.

[Edwin]

I think I'll have to agree to disagree about the "distributing power aound leads to switching distortion and low damping factor".

I'll also reiterate that I think severe clipping is far less common than people believe - I've yet to meet anyone that has blown a tweeter and I've only read first hand accounts on the net once or twice and that's with a host of very low end receivers on the market.

I will agree that the XT's are fairly heavy and inefficient load though and I personally wouldn't want to drive them on any multi-channel amp claiming less than 200W per channel into 4ohm - Rotel or not - particularly in a 5.1 setup with XTs all around.

I’m curious; you say that you occasionally drive your speakers very loud but have you ever measured how loud the peaks are during those times?

ACD Testing

All true, however, some manufacturers DO report true "all channels driven" 20-20K figures, For example...... ROTEL! All you have said is true, but distributing power aound leads to switching distortion and low damping factor, thus, muddy,less than clear reproduction. As you have well pointed out the amp is more often than not operating at a few watts, however,transient peaks demand exponential increases in power, thus if you are driving a system at high levels with a surround system (at least 5 speakers) in modes such as 5 channel stereo (my favorite and not trully a surround mode at all), a less than optimal power supply (AKA all receivers and some separate amps) will suffer clipping distortion in a heartbeat, and as we have all pointed out, clipping will kill speakers in a very expedient manner. You are completely correct that for most home situations most amps are sufficient, but, if you are of a demanding nature and like to occasionally drive your tunes to high levels you need serious amplification, more specifically, with VERY inefficient speakers like the XT's.

[WI Rotel]

I think I'll have to agree to disagree about the "distributing power aound leads to switching distortion and low damping factor".

I'll also reiterate that I think severe clipping is far less common than people believe - I've yet to meet anyone that has blown a tweeter and I've only read first hand accounts on the net once or twice and that's with a host of very low end receivers on the market.

I will agree that the XT's are fairly heavy and inefficient load though and I personally wouldn't want to drive them on any multi-channel amp claiming less than 200W per channel into 4ohm - Rotel or not - particularly in a 5.1 setup with XTs all around.

I’m curious; you say that you occasionally drive your speakers very loud but have you ever measured how loud the peaks are during those times?

ACD Testing

Very loud on my SPL has been around 92 db weighted. My listening area is roughly 450 sq ft. As you have very well stated, concert levels are not only distressing to the ear, but are definitely well beyond what the speakers can reproduce (the XT's). Aside from very few models, home speakers can not withstand much beyond that. For higher levels than that horn transducers and very large and sturdy bass gear is necessary. With the RMB 1095 (200W RMS) and the XT's higher levels than that lead to drivers distress even though the amp is cruising along. My estimation is that that is the maximum sustainable levels without damaging the speakers. One point I like to make is that the XT's are pretty laid back at low levels, however at higher levels they are quite dynamic. That's why IMO the demand an amp of stout current (not wattage) capacity. The fact that they are a difficult drive has been borne out in all the independent test they have been on, what will surprise most perople is that the XT2 and XTC are as hard to drive as the XT4's and in some instances even a little harder! The addition of the PV1 is very helpful since it takes over all the low frequency duties, thus making the overall current load easier on the amp. Though some of our posters around here scoff at the idea, I have found that my less than "audiophile" XT system with 2 PV's and a an RMB 1095 can deliver the goods as well as almost any megabuck system I've ever listened to (In 25 years plus of farting around with audio I've heard a LOT!) Hell, the other day I was dicking around some old books of mine and I found the bills for the first stereo I ever bought (1979) when I was barely in HS (thank god for that paper route)! A yamaha reciever with 2 301's a technics turntable and TEAC/tascam c3 tape deck One thing that is surprising is that a version of the tape deck is still being sold for professional recording studios! I thought that digital recording systems would have made such decks obsolete at least a decade ago! It had DBX noise reduction which was an 8 (or 16) bit digital compression system to allow full range dynamic recordings on regular oxide tape WOOT! They even still sell a version of the Shure V15 cartridge I used on the technics! WOOT WOOT! For a 14 Y/O kid that stuff was the snizzle :rofl:

[bigburner]

Common Misconceptions about hearing

Interesting document thank you Edwin. I've been meaning to buy an SPL meter for a while. Your post will speed up the process.

Nigel.

[WI Rotel]

Interesting document thank you Edwin. I've been meaning to buy an SPL meter for a while. Your post will speed up the process.

Nigel.

Nigel, the biggest need for a meter is to properly set up a surround system. If you are only doing stereo, it's not really necessary.

[bigburner]

Nigel, the biggest need for a meter is to properly set up a surround system. If you are only doing stereo, it's not really necessary.

Hi WI Rotel,

My interest in owning an SPL meter is to find out how loud my system is at the listening position. Music is a very important part of my life so it makes sense to ensure that my hearing doesn't become impaired (or more impaired than it is already). A good music DVD, a couple of friends, and a few bottles of wine can increase the risk factor dramatically.

Nigel.

[WI Rotel]

Hi WI Rotel,

My interest in owning an SPL meter is to find out how loud my system is at the listening position. Music is a very important part of my life so it makes sense to ensure that my hearing doesn't become impaired (or more impaired than it is already). A good music DVD, a couple of friends, and a few bottles of wine can increase the risk factor dramatically.

Nigel.

I doubt that there are Radio Shack stores in NZ, but a decent meter shouldn't cost you more than US $35-50. Cheers!

[Edwin]

I doubt that there are Radio Shack stores in NZ, but a decent meter shouldn't cost you more than US $35-50. Cheers!

Where you can find an SVS sub you can usually find a Radio Shack SPL meter... These guys are the distributors for Oz and NZ; http://www.deephzaudio.com/SPL%20Meter.htm