B&W CM1 - any experience?

[fordster]

Hi folks, this is my first post in Club B&W so be gentle!

Last year I upgraded my AV system (which, funnily enough is used mostly for music!) to a Rotel RDV-1060 DVD player and Rotel RSX-1056 receiver. I love this setup but now need/want to upgrade my speakers. However, I only have a small room (approx 16ft x 12ft) so am limited to smaller type speakers. We may move house this year but it's unlikely that it will be to anywhre much larger. I'm not planning to rush out and buy speakers tomorrow (I like to spend a lot of time researching so that when I go look and listed I've got an idea of what to narrow the choices down to).

One of my options would seem to be the new B&W CM1 bookshelf speakers which look good on paper. I know most people in here tend to talk about the 700 and 800 series but I'm hoping some of you have also listened to smaller speakers (upgraded from them or have a second system in a smaller room) and could provide some insight into their characteristics. The other option would be the XT series or perhaps the smaller 600 series bookshelfs. I would need the full 5 channels so recommendations for subs, centres and surrounds are also required (I don't ask a lot do I? :P ).

As stated, I listen to music more than watch movies but the speakers must be suitable for both. I tend to like clarity, good timing/pace and fast, accurate bass rather than slow and boomy. My natural preference would be for Quad speakers (as I have a pair of 11L's on my Rotel 02 stereo system). However, I think it's important to be open-minded and look at alternatives.

Thanks in advance.

[ShadowZA]

Welcome to the forum, Dave. Hope that you enjoy.

While I can't specifically answer you regarding the 600 series 3 nor the XT range, I used to have a setup consisting of the now discontinued CM range. The specs of this range is probably somewhere between the 600 & 700 series. I had 4 CM2's for the front & rear channels, a CMC for the centre & a Paradigm sub which I still have. The size of my listening lounge is slightly larger than yours at roughly 17,5 x 12,5 ft and your size should be quite sufficient to accommodate front floorstanders in my opinion. I sold my front CM2's and upgraded to N804's in 2004. Best thing I did. Of course, furniture et al takes up space too ... and one is also scared off by little fingers poking into tweeters.

An idea is to consult your budget and see how much you want to spend. Go to the B & W site, consult the ranges and see the latest retail prices (I can do this in South Africa). Then, if possible, try to audition the speakers at your home. In this way it will be easier for you to determine your preference. If you can't do this, take a couple of hours off from marital duty and relax at your favourite dealer and allow him/her to play some of your favourite music pieces on a setup as close as possible to what you have at home.

Speakers, in my opinion, are all about personal preference.

Also, B & W subs tend to be quite pricey. Take a look around this forum and see what other folk are using. Could be an idea to get B & W speakers and some other sub.

Second hand demo speakers can sometimes be found at bargain prices too. Check your dealer websites & other local sites for those.

Good luck

[fordster]

Thanks for the advice. I'm unsure about floorstanders due to the layout of the room (the speakers need to sit fairly close to the walls, into corners) but will give this some more thought.

On the B&W UK site they only list the CM1 and no other models so not sure what I'd use for a centre? I think the XT's are probably a little over what I'd like to pay (I need to buy the full set of speakers and sub together as my old ones won't blend in) and I'm not overly keen on the 600 series looks wise so whilst I will probably audition them at the same time they're not too high up my list.

[jayskumar]

They are coming out with a CM series center channel in Feb. That's what B&W told me when I asked them about 2 weeks ago.

[fordster]

Interesting thanks, I'll keep an eye out for it. I have to say the specs for the CM1 look very good, it's hard to believe such a small speaker can have such a wide frequency range and can go as low (55Hz to 22Khz).

[fordster]

Okay, borrowed a demo pair of these from my dealer on Saturday afternoon. Only got a couple of hours testing at home though before noticing that one of the tweeters was cracked! I took them back to the dealer today and they've lent me a brand new pair for a week - fantastic service.

Anyway, my question is how do I get the best out of these for the week that I have them. I've heard various things about B&W's being harsh out of the box, needing a lot of running in, being very difficult to position to get the "sweet spot", etc. So I'm looking for some good advice from all you B&W experts to either dispel these rumours or tell me how to work around them so that I get maximum enjoyment for the week and can make a valid assesment of whether I like these babies.

They'll be running on a Rotel RSX-1056 with an RDV-1060 as the source. I'm primarily concerned with their stereo performance so the amp will be in 2 channel bypass mode and I plan to biwire the speakers (just because I have the cable to do so). The speakers ideally need to be able to operate close to the wall (side and back) but I have some scope for moving them, what's the recommendation for distance?

From the brief listening I did on my upstairs system (Rotel RA-10, RCD-02) with speakers not ideally positioned I found them to be very "forward". For example Norah Jones nearly took my head off as she sounded like she was shouting. The vocals seemed to be projected further forward than the music. The pace for the instruments was also very fast, perhaps a little too much. I then tried some Vanessa Mae which sounded very screechy. Other acoustic style music and stuff like Coldplay seemed fine although Dido sounded horrible. I then tried some dancehall music to test the bass and timing - Sean Paul's Dutty Rock album - and wow, can these speakers rock! I then moved on to Ravel's Bolero and was impressed with how the finesse and spaciousness did not dampen the energy of the climax. However, not long after that I noticed the tweeter was damaged to packed tham away as I didn't want to do any further damage. I then put my Quad 11L's back on to compare and found that for the most part the Quad's were much easier to listen to but lacked some oif the space and energy of the CM1's. If I had to pick after just 2 hours listening I'd still go with the Quad's as they were more balanced across the wide range of music that I listen to. However, the blown tweeter must have affected the B&W's along with poor positioning and them probably still needing some running in.

Hopefully, I can get a better test of the B&W's this week....

[bachfan]

Please let me what you find. I will probably also compare CM1 with DM602 S2 tomorrow.

The latter is what I am now looking at, but the dealer is trying to persuade me that CM1 is worth extra money.

Here is what he said,

"The DM602's are $600 a pair vs. $900 for the CM1's. The difference between the two is I feel the CM1's are a bit more musical than the 602's. By that I mean that they have a more open and detailed sound to the CM1's. That being said, for the money I don't think you can find a better pair of speakers for the price."

But there is a review of CM1 in Hi-Fi choice magazine this month. It is very extensive and technical. But I remeber it gives 86 overall score. I cannot remember too much since I don't want to spend another 10 bucks for it, but in the end it said something like 'although high quality, it, as any speake of its size, make music more like reprodued than real'. If you are interested, just find a Borders store and read it.

Hope this will help. And also please post your result. Thanks

[EastCoaster]

I know most people in here tend to talk about the 700 and 800 series but I'm hoping some of you have also listened to smaller speakers (upgraded from them or have a second system in a smaller room) and could provide some insight into their characteristics.

Is it in your budget to get the 805S? They are unbelievable - especially for a small listening room. Even if you don't have the budget, go audition them (see if you can get a dealer to set up a 5.1 system for you with four 805S, HTM4 and an ASW825 or 850). If you hear them, you'll find the budget all of a sudden!

[fordster]

Is it in your budget to get the 805S? They are unbelievable - especially for a small listening room. Even if you don't have the budget, go audition them (see if you can get a dealer to set up a 5.1 system for you with four 805S, HTM4 and an ASW825 or 850). If you hear them, you'll find the budget all of a sudden!

Don't start me off on that road! I probably could find the budget (how expensive are they anyway?) if I bought them over a (long) period of time but then I'd probably need to upgrade the amp as well and that's a non starter due to lack of space. I can't find room for a pre/pro combination.

I also think that even my understanding wife would start to object if I told her I wanted to replace all my equipment! I'm very lucky that she appreciates the differences in sound quality and enjoys listening to music herself. I can pretty much buy what I like (as long as I have the money in the bank) providing it sounds good but it has to fit with the space available. I also like to take into account her opinion on what things look like and also consider this myself.

[fordster]

Please let me what you find. I will probably also compare CM1 with DM602 S2 tomorrow.

The latter is what I am now looking at, but the dealer is trying to persuade me that CM1 is worth extra money.

Here is what he said,

"The DM602's are $600 a pair vs. $900 for the CM1's. The difference between the two is I feel the CM1's are a bit more musical than the 602's. By that I mean that they have a more open and detailed sound to the CM1's. That being said, for the money I don't think you can find a better pair of speakers for the price."

But there is a review of CM1 in Hi-Fi choice magazine this month. It is very extensive and technical. But I remeber it gives 86 overall score. I cannot remember too much since I don't want to spend another 10 bucks for it, but in the end it said something like 'although high quality, it, as any speake of its size, make music more like reprodued than real'. If you are interested, just find a Borders store and read it.

Hope this will help. And also please post your result. Thanks

I won't be comparing them to the 602's as these are not on my radar. I just don't like the look of them so could not put them in my living room. Sound is the most important thing but they have to look nice too and the 600 series just does not do it for me. The CM1's however (in maple) are gorgeous and I could happily live with these.

I'm going to compare them to my Quad 11L's as these would have been my original choice had I not wandered into my dealer and seen these CMS1's. I set the new (undamaged) pair up in my living room last night. They're not in the exact position that I would want them in yet. I was working late last night so didn't have time to move furniture around. They are on proper stands now though and I've used different speaker cable to what I used on my upstairs system. According to the manual they need at leat 15 hours of running in so I'll reserve judgement until towards the end of the week. It will probably take until Friday to get that much time on them. Having said that, I'm impressed with I've heard so far (after about 3.5 hours). They're a lot less forward than the ones I had originally. This is probably due to a combination of damaged tweeter, not being on stands, speaker cable and positioning. The detail levels are excellent, better than my Quad's. I've not tried anything too loud or fast yet but will try some later. I'll continue to post updates during the week as I get more testing done.

I already have a feeling that I might not be taking them back to the dealer though!

[fordster]

At £1600 for a pair of 805S speakers there's no way I'm even going to listen to them! That's £3200 plus the cost of a centre and subwoofer. That beats what I've spent on my amp, DVD player, DVD record, rack, speaker stands and LCD TV. I'd then want to upgrade the amp to a Rotel 1077 or even higher. There's just no way I can justify that to myself never mind the wife.

[EastCoaster]

At £1600 for a pair of 805S speakers there's no way I'm even going to listen to them! That's £3200 plus the cost of a centre and subwoofer. That beats what I've spent on my amp, DVD player, DVD record, rack, speaker stands and LCD TV. I'd then want to upgrade the amp to a Rotel 1077 or even higher. There's just no way I can justify that to myself never mind the wife.

Ohhh... But they're so good! Have a few less pints per year and save for these - they're worth it! :T

[bachfan]

Today I went to audit CM1 again. Compared with 602, it is indeed more smooth and clear. But DM602 has louder bass while CM1's bass is restrained. The extra $300 makes some obvious difference. I think CM1 is more musical but still DM602 is not bad. Currently, I really cannot care too much about the looking, DM602 is not cute but I am not going to watch it when listening to music.

[fordster]

I guess that just shows the importance that everybody should listen for themselves as we all have different tastes. I would take the clarity, smoothness and musicality over louder bass. I must admit I'm finding that the CM1's are lacking a little bottom end at the moment. However, the other pair had plenty of bass (and it was lovely - crisp and fast) so I'm hoping they will improve as they are run in. I also suspect I may need to get some sand and load my stands to improve the bass weight. They are also further into the room than I intend to run them so once they're closer to the walls the bass should improve.

I didn't get much chance to play last night so can't really report much new. However, I do now have something of a dilemma. I e-mailed B&W yesterday via their website to check when the CM centre would be available. I got a very quick reply (very impressive customer service, I've found most companies take days to reply if they ever do) saying there are no plans for any additional models in the CM range.

This leaves me with 3 options:

1. Don't buy CM1's and look for another range of speakers

2. Buy CM1's for fronts and rears and try to find a centre to match

3. Use CM1's for stereo and keep (for now) my existing 5.1 speaker set up. However, my Rotel 1056 is only a 5 channel amplifier so I will need to buy a 2 channel amp as well as a pair of CM1's.

Anybody got an opinion?

[Karma]

Ohhh... But they're so good! Have a few less pints per year and save for these - they're worth it! :T

HI Fordster,
I agree with both you and East. You should not listen to them. They are outstanding and worth saving for. But, not much bass without a sub. Don't listen and you will never know what we are talking about and save some money. Do listen though because it will make your life better (be sure to have your wife listen or maybe life will get worse).

Gosh, am I confused? Just trying to make your life better by making it worse or, ...... maybe worse before better. I should shut up before I ruin my stellar reputation.

Sparky

[Briz vegas]

How about a second hand pair of 705s or 805s. They both have nice matching centres. With all this upgraditus going around and reports of full value upgrades within 12 months there must be lots of hardly used, pre loved speakers out there ready to make your day.

Just a thought, and you would make Eastcoaster happy if you manage to find some 805s! :W

[jayskumar]

Fordster,

My dealer has a picture of the new CM C in some marketing brochure. He even had some emails from B&W marketing talking about the new CM C. I am surprized they cancelled it.

I was waiting for the CMC, but if it isn't being released now, I am in a similar boat as you.

[fordster]

Seems like there's some confusion at B&W. Let's hope it's my source that is wrong.

Sparky, I'm staying away from the 805s as I like my life as it is!

[fordster]

According to my source at B&W they do not have any other centre speakers that match the CM1's. This rules out option 2 so it's either find some different speakers for a total package or concentrate on creating a 2 channel solution and keep my existing speakers for 5.1.

I'm liking the idea of boosting my stereo setup as I can live with the solution I've got for movies. To use another set of speakers for 2 channel I will need to add a 2 channel amplifier to my set up. The obvious choice is the Rotel RB-1070 (£600) or RB-1080 (£900). Simple enough so far and either would be fine for the CM1's. However, you've now all got me thinking about moving further up the range! Although the 805 is out of reach (and I guess even second hand would be over budget) I could possibly stretch to the 705 (£900).

If I went with the 705, I would need to get an RB-1080 to be able to get the best out fo them. The problem now is that my dealer does not carry the 700 range of speakers so a home demo would be tricky. There is another nearby dealer that carries the 700 series but I'd feel disloyal to my dealer as they have provided me with excellent service over the past few years. Neither of these carry the 800 series so even if I was to consider these I couldn't get a demo.

[fordster]

I swapped the speaker cable last night and now have them biwired. The previous cable was too polite for my liking and the new cable has added more detail, clarity and livened up the sound with removing the smoothness. I'm also noticing better bass response but I've not yet tested with anything that's heavy on the bass. Over the weekend I plan to rearrange the furniture to put the speakers where I really want them and do some proper critical listening.

My initial impression was that I would possibly not take the speakers back but just buy them. However, I now plan to take them back whatever the results of my listening over the weekend. Why? Well simply because I've now decided to keep my existing 5.1 speaker system and add a 2 channel power amp for stereo usage. I plan to get the Rotel RB-1080 and I'll then audition some speakers with this. As I can now spend my budget on just 2 speakers instead of 5 I can consider going up the range. I'll have to factor in the cost of the power amp but as my original budget was around £2000 this means 705's are now an option. And yes, if I wait a little while I could even stretch to the 805's!! As stated in my last post though my dealer does not carry the 700 or 800 range so not sure how I'm going to get a home demo. I don't think any local dealer carries the 800 series.

One question though, will the Rotel RB-1080 be good enough to drive the 705's or 805's?

[Briz vegas]

At one point I was looking at a 1080 for my 705s but it was second hand and I was beaten to it by another keen bargain hunter. I am using a "more experienced" 100watt power amp and is has oodles of power of sufficient quality to keep me happy until upgraditis strikes again. Some say that the 1080 could be more refined but I have heard many reports it is a good match for either speaker.

[fordster]

Took the CM1's back to the dealer on Monday. As a comparison I put my Quad 11L's from my second system on to see how they compare. These cost £380 here in the UK, compared to £500 for the B&W's but the hifi press always rave on about how the Quad's sound better than speakers twice their price. I found that the bass was much better on the Quad's as I would expect with them being slightly bigger speakers. Whilst not having huge amounts of bass there was enough for my tast and it had the depth that I felt was missing from the CM1's. However, the CM1's were better in every other respect, much better clarity, separation of instruments and the speakers were faster without being fatiguing. The Quad's seemed to be a little restrained in comparison.

I've been reading the thread on whether to upgrade amp or speakers which has got me to thinking about my requirements. I agree with the idea that a balanced system is the best approach unless you're planning further upgrades. There's no way (at least in the near future) that I will be upgrading my amp, DVD player, etc. If I bought the 805's they would be wasted on the equipment I have. I'd need to buy an AV processor, pre-amp and power amps to get the best out of them. I'd also need to buy a good CD player rather than using the RDV-1060. I don't have the space, never mind the money to do this.

If I go for the 705's I need to a power amp to my system that will do them justice. I think a Rotel RB-1080 would be sufficient for this. My only thought then is am I going to be happy with my home cinema speakers?

If I go for the CM1's I'd probaby go for the Rotel RA-1062 integrated amplifier and run the analogue output from my RDV-1060 into this and keep it separate from my AV system. I'd then look at something like the B&W MT30 system for an AV speaker system. This has the advantage that I could use the PV1 sub's speaker input to reinforce the CM'1 bass. I think this would probably give me the most balanced system for both AV and 2 channel. I'm very happy with the sound from the CM1's and feel I could happily live with them (as can the wife). Obviously if I go and listen to the 705's I may change my mind!

[fordster]

Decision made - my dealer was relocating so gave me 10% of the CM1's and 25% of the RA-1062! I collected them on Saturday and had a bit of a scare when I tried to fit everything in the room. When I shuffled everything round to my planned layout I didn't like it and couldn't see a way of fitting everything in without it looking stupid and annoying me. After a cup of tea and a sit down to chill I came up with a solution thankfully. I'm glad I didn't go for 705s though as there's no way they would sit where the CM1s do.

[Briz vegas]

Glad you found the right system for your room at a price you are happy with. Who could ask for more!

[fordster]

Thanks. I think the next upgrade needs to be the house!

[Adeeb]

fordster, it looks like the rest of the CM range is coming along: Thread

I was wondering how you like your CM1s now that you have had them for a while?

[fordster]

Adeeb, I'm very happy with my CM1s although I don't seem to have as much time as I'd like to listen to them! I did give them a blast the other day at very loud volumes with a mix of Guns n Roses, Evanescence and Damian Marley and was surprised how powerful they can be for such small speakers.

[Music4Life]

I am very happy with my CM1 too. I have the NAD's C372 and C521BEE to drive it. I find my C372 amp a bit lacking in the bass but the mid and the high's are very good. I don't need so much bass tho cuz I listened to mostly vocal recordings.

[phycomp]

The new B&W CM1 are pretty inefficient at 84dB/w, they state that they can handle up to 100W, I was wondering what amplifiers people here are using with them, apart from NAD and Rotel?

[BWLover]

Why don't you use another cm1 for the centre? It doesn't need to be a horizontal designed centre.