You used to get what you pay for (Rant)

[NMyTree]

I think you all should watch what you are posting

We can post any opinion we wish, when ever we want.

Through my dealings with B&W I would say that there has been a terrible misunderstanding somewhere along the way although I can not say first hand since I have not spoken with them.

Uh yeah. I suspect I know where this "terrible misunderstanding" lies.

I speculate that B & W was fearfull and cautious in their replies, because they feared there may be more of their speakers with the same problem. So as to NOT create a "terrible misunderstanding" with their customers and unwilling to set the precedent that they (B & W) would cover the repairs, themselves; B & W refused to commit to paying for the repairs themselves, and tried to pass the cost onto the customer (Soundgravy).


There is no defending their responses and their refusal to take the financial responsibility for parts and repair. Any reasonable and fair warranty should cover such a problem as this one. A problem that clearly stems from the design and manufactoring procedure of the product. B & W should have taken responsibility from the start, honored the warranty and made the solution smooth and painless for the customer. This is NOT an unreasonable demand. It is covered under the warranty!

Make all the excuses you want, but B & W dropped the ball on this one and they come off looking very badly, in my eyes. Maybe, in a lot of people's eyes.



B & W=bushleague

[Wizard-of-Odd]

It all goes back to "penny wise and pound foolish." Someone at B&W realized the bad press was snowballing so some attempt at damage control was necessary. For some, myself included, it was or will be too late. This event reinforces my decision to continue to by pre-owned. Yes, my speakers will not be all new and shiny, but any problems will have been the previous owners and not mine. I can, in my own way, boycott B&W while still enjoying the superior sound we all know and love.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

Kevin, aka "The Wiz"

[JürgenW]

On the risc that I didn't get all things well. And I do hope I can make myself clear enough:

When you were living in one of the EU-countries the important thing would be: do you still have a dealer-guarantee on the speakers?
As you have bought the speakers from a dealer it is the dealer who is responsible to you for delivering good speakers en getting them repaired if they are broken.
How the dealer handles this with the manufacturer is his business and should not be your concern.

In some cases a manufacturer gives freely (completely out of his free wil) an additional guarantee to a buyer. It is therefore up to the manufacturer to decide the range of his guarantee.
But if the manufacturer has made his clear to a potential buyer what his (the m's) guarantee encloses, a buyer can invoke that right, because one of the reasons to buy the speakers could have been this additional guarantee.

But first and main thing: first try to get things done with your dealer, because he is responsible.

[PavelL]

It all sounded somewhat fishy from the begining. You end up changing drivers yoursel?!?!?, your dealer although nice seems to lack the skills needed to properly repair the speakers... B&W gets blamed. I believe you should'nt have repaired them YOURSELF in the first place... That's what dealers are for!!! And you know too many cooks often spoil the broth...

[NMyTree]

It all goes back to "penny wise and pound foolish." Someone at B&W realized the bad press was snowballing so some attempt at damage control was necessary.

The thing is, B & W did not attempt any damage control, whatsoever. Soundgravy's dealer simply took upon himself to not charge Soundgravy at all and charge it back to B & W.

So no effort was made by B & W .....too correct the situation.......find a fair solution or have the unit repaired at no cost to the customer, as the warranty clearly states. B & W has done nothing to smooth this over.


B & W=bushleague

[RobP]

It all sounded somewhat fishy from the begining. You end up changing drivers yoursel?!?!?, your dealer although nice seems to lack the skills needed to properly repair the speakers... B&W gets blamed. I believe you should'nt have repaired them YOURSELF in the first place... That's what dealers are for!!! And you know too many cooks often spoil the broth...

PavelL, there is nothing fishy about anything here, you must have read wrong, I took it to my dealer, HE took the driver out, HE found that the nut was hard to loosen, I was there standing next to him, I pulled the rod and nut out and found that it was stripped. This was all done right there. My dealer and myself are both proffesionals in repairing speakers. We both know what we are doing and do NOT lack the skills to repair audio equipment. This was an error from the factory and my dealer took care of it. end of story.

[Wizard-of-Odd]

The thing is, B & W did not attempt any damage control, whatsoever. Soundgravy's dealer simply took upon himself to not charge Soundgravy at all and charge it back to B & W.

So no effort was made by B & W .....too correct the situation.......find a fair solution or have the unit repaired at no cost to the customer, as the warranty clearly states. B & W has done nothing to smooth this over.


B & W=bushleague

My apologies, I misunderstood how the issue was resolved.

Kevin

[RobP]

Guys, I don't know if B&W even read this thread, I am sure that they have bigger fish to fry, so lets not assume either way. Bottom line is my dealer took care of it, that is protocol in the dealer/manufactur relationship and that's fine with me.

Here is my main concern in this whole situation, B&W states that there has to be a certain torque spec on the driver in order to achieve a proper seal while still being decoupled from the cabinet. but yet the dealer is given no torque spec or the means to achieve this in replacing a driver in the field. That's what the emails to B&W were for, I wanted to know who to believe here. Was my speaker going to be repaired correctly or was B&W overstating the whole fastening system a bit in order to help sell the product?
When B&W was pressed about the topic it came down basically that the torque spec was more for a consistent manufacturing process and for safe transport. If it was more than this then the dealer would have the same provisions to fasten the driver.

Finding that the rod and t-nut were stripped at the factory and the fact that I was going to have to foot the bill added fuel to the fire, It was obvious that the factory had achieved the required torque spec early because of the crossthreaded nut, this is why the driver was a little more loose that its mate in the other speaker.

I still believe that B&W makes a great speaker, and I still love my N803's, but I now know that in the future I will have to wear my bullshit goggles when I look into buying a product. 8)

[PavelL]

PavelL, there is nothing fishy about anything here, you must have read wrong, I took it to my dealer, HE took the driver out, HE found that the nut was hard to loosen, I was there standing next to him, I pulled the rod and nut out and found that it was stripped. This was all done right there. My dealer and myself are both proffesionals in repairing speakers. We both know what we are doing and do NOT lack the skills to repair audio equipment. This was an error from the factory and my dealer took care of it. end of story.

You never said anything about being a professional in repairing speakers. I'm not telepathic. I suspect nonone at B&W is. Congratulations it worked out fine for you. I can imagine what you went through.

[Race Car Driver]

So in conclusion to this thread, i learned one very important lesson.
Apparently B&W=Bushleague.....
*shrug*

[DrJRapp]

The thing is, B & W did not attempt any damage control, whatsoever. Soundgravy's dealer simply took upon himself to not charge Soundgravy at all and charge it back to B & W.

So no effort was made by B & W .....too correct the situation.......find a fair solution or have the unit repaired at no cost to the customer, as the warranty clearly states. B & W has done nothing to smooth this over.


B & W=bushleague

I say that a B&W dealer fixing the problem is the same as B&W fixing the problem. I believe that is what any manufacturer with a dealer organization that they protect, expects from their dealers.

[junior77blue]

A torqure wrench with that kind of resolution and accuracy would probably not be cheap by any means. So, I couldn't see 'dealers' haveing them around.

[NMyTree]

I say that a B&W dealer fixing the problem is the same as B&W fixing the problem. I believe that is what any manufacturer with a dealer organization that they protect, expects from their dealers.

But, when Soundgravy contacted B & W, they never once indicated they would take care of the problem and repair the speaker, at no cost or inconvienance to him. Through his dealer, the dealer was told by B & W that he (Soundgravy) would have to pay for the repairs out of his own pocket, and that's exactly what he was told by his dealer.


Neither of those approaches yielded a commitment by B & W, to honor the warranty.

That is the point.

Only later did his dealer decide to take it upon himself to circumvent the stone-walling by B & W, and simply charge it back to B & W.

As quoted here:

" I called the shop today about some speakers that my wife wants, and at the end of the phone call he said that they are go ahead and take care of the rod and nut that the factory messed up, he said he will just charge it back to B&W and they will have to deal with it. "

It almost seems to me that the dealer decided to take care of this problem, at no charge to Soundgravy, only after Soundgravy called him with an inquiry regarding purchasing more gear, from that dealer. Going by Soundgravy's chronological order, at no point before that did B & W or the Dealer indicate they would honor the warranty. That's weak.

Despite what you folks may think, I'm not trying to bash B & W. I'm very fond of two of their models. But some people are in here doing a little dance and sidestep-shuffle on behalf of B & W.

Thankfully, Soundgravy is getting it repaired at no charge to him.

Bottom line, they never honored the warranty. Only the dealer's willingness to circumvent B & W's nonsense, got this taken care of.

Weak.

[GosonFletchy]

Wow, I think I will just agree from now on with all the stupid crap that is spilled out. OK, B&W is evil, they make junk speakers but their dealers fix it and make them sound great. No way was B&W ever trying to do the right thing. The only reason that this got resolved was because the dealer took care of it, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is the type of thread that has made me visit this forum less and less. Look at what happened. There was an issue, it was taken care of, somewhere along the way there was a misunderstanding and now it has been resolved and in the end the customer has his speakers fixed and is happy. I can see how that means that they basically suck. Do not bother slamming my post or anything else because I will not be back to see it anyways.

G.

:assimilate:

[dyazdani]

I feel the Christmas sprit oozing out of my computer...

[RobP]

I feel the Christmas sprit oozing out of my computer...

:rofl: You know Danish, they make ointments for that. :B

[RobP]

I hope you guys all have a great time with your family and friends this Holiday weekend. Merry Christmas!!!

[audioqueso]

Hey Corey, who's the dark side now, Paradigm or B&W? lol

[NMyTree]

Wow, I think I will just agree from now on with all the stupid crap that is spilled out. OK, B&W is evil, they make junk speakers but their dealers fix it and make them sound great.

At no piont did I imply such a thing. My comments were focused and exclusive to this specific situation. Never did I insinuate my comments into an all encompassing generalization of B & W as whole.

My "weak" and " B & W-bushleague " comments were directed at this specific situation involving Soundgravy and his speakers.

Never did I say or imply they are "evil".

[dyazdani]

I'm not sure what the deal was with Robert's situation. When I gave my 802s to my dad, he noticed a small gap where the two cabinet halves meet above the marlan head (see pic). When I say small, I mean about half a mm. B&W replaced BOTH speakers with brand new ones from the factory, no questions asked. Turns out this is "normal" as I've seen the same thing on many pairs.

I've heard mixed stories from dealers and individuals around B&Ws treatment. I don't know what causes good vs. bad in these cases.

[Mark_C.]

Seems to me the issue was resolved the way it should be--through the dealer. Too often on this or other boards, end users (not the orginal poster) tend to immediately step over their respective dealers on their way directly to the company. B&W, like other high-end companies, is a dealer-focused company. The company works hard to maintain a network professional dealers. B&W dealers represent the company and are expected to offer top-flight customer care or they won't be B&W dealers--period.
Bush league my a**.

[JKalman]

Despite what you folks may think, I'm not trying to bash B & W. I'm very fond of two of their models. But some people are in here doing a little dance and sidestep-shuffle on behalf of B & W.

Earlier in this thread I was congratulating Gravy on getting his speaker fixed by his dealer, not by B&W. I get the feeling that NMyTree thought I was congratulating Gravy for B&W fixing his speaker, as a post closely following mine by NMytree seemed to suggest that. I hope you weren't referring to me in that above quote, but if you were, have fun with all your xmas bashing not just the B&W bashing.

Congratulations again Gravy. :T

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

Several times I have been tempted to close this thread because it seemed to be becoming a black hole for nasty comments and generalisations...

Bottom line - the dealer took it off and is making good the fix at B&W's expense... The world is not coming to and end... All companies occasionally have faulty products... B&W has a deserved good reputation for generally standing by their products - providing support and spares for 20 year old speaker models. Indeed, this forum is full of good news stories where B&W has stood by a product replacing or repairing it. No they are not perfect... No company is... But I was disappointed to see the viciousness of the attacks...

Merry Christmas...

Geoff

[NMyTree]

My comments were not vicious, they were critical. There's a big difference between being vicious and critical.

Nor were my comments attacks. They were critical criticism regarding this isolated situation involving Soundgravy and his speakers. There was no intention on my part to genaralize B & W as a whole and insinuate this is the way they deal with every problem they encounter with their product. These were isloated comments and criticism.

My comments reflect Soundgravy's account of what occured.

[Mark_C.]

My comments were not vicious, they were critical.

No, it's the venom you are too quick to spew in the guise of criticism.

[RebelMan]

No, it's the venom you are too quick to spew in the guise of criticism.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I believe Tony's comments were justified. The truth is B&W dropped the ball in this case and SG's dealer recovered it. I have seen and experienced both situations where on the one hand the manufacturer made good on a bad situation and then on the other hand vise versa, such as we have here.

In the end B&W did not honor their warranty and this was unacceptable. The dealer acted on it's own behalf, not B&W's, to right the wrong. If the dealer had acted on B&W's behalf the email SG received from B&W should have stated that they would work with his dealer to cover the repair. SG was not, that we know of, informed that this type of corrective action was going to occur. Had that been the case then kudos would have been forthcoming to B&W. Only SG's dealer did the admirable thing and only they should be commended.

[PavelL]

at the end of the phone call HE said that they are go ahead and take care of the rod and nut that the factory messed up, he said he will just charge it back to B&W and they will have to deal with it. :T I like this guys attitude!! He also gave me an additional discount on the speakers.

I like this guy's attitude myself. He IS a good salesman. And you will continue buying from him. :W And after all he will make $$$ even if you buy Tannoy. He is good. I'd hire him myself, but would refuse dealership.

[NMyTree]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I believe Tony's comments were justified. The truth is B&W dropped the ball in this case and SG's dealer recovered it. I have seen and experienced both situations where on the one hand the manufacturer made good on a bad situation and then on the other hand vise versa, such as we have here.

In the end B&W did not honor their warranty and this was unacceptable. The dealer acted on it's own behalf, not B&W's, to right the wrong. If the dealer had acted on B&W's behalf the email SG received from B&W should have stated that they would work with his dealer to cover the repair. SG was not, that we know of, informed that this type of corrective action was going to occur. Had that been the case then kudos would have been forthcoming to B&W. Only SG's dealer did the admirable thing and only they should be commended.

Exactly. Thank you.

[Kobus]

the dealer - the dealer

At the end of the day the dealer hust sort such a problem out immediately, HE can fight(if needs be) with B&W later.

I am however shocked that this can happen to you as I am confidant that my local dealer (incl. local distributor) in my country would have dealt with it better. (I hope)

Enjoy,

I'm off to check out my fst.

Cheers

Kobus

[chinets]

Soundgravy, Stick to your guns and thanks for helping all of us B&W owners especially the 803 holders for your efforts in standing up for your rights when you are 100% right. If you need us to write to B&W on your behalf or give them a piece of your and our mind please don't hesitate to contact us, as I will stick with the Right over the wrong anytime ,and B&W are in the wrong and should pay for their mistakes. Because if you don't do it we will all be screwed in the future because if we don't give a damn they won't give a damn in the future. Good Luck and I am impressed with your complaints to B&W. You paid enough for these speakers and you should get what they claim....Made to perfection??????????

[RobP]

Thanks for your support Chinets, I believe that the situation turned out well, In my opinion it was handled the way it should have been, through the dealer. My parts have not come in yet so I have had a chance to see the end of this yet. I will keep you guys updated.

[chinets]

Soundgravy ,I would send the One dollar for the part to B&W and tell them this is your charity as they seem to be misers with a Dollar. Or better still send the dollar to B&W and tell them that this is a Rehab Fund to help other B&W owners get over the FST nightmare they have caused you and this dollar will pay and help for future FST and other mistakes that needs fixing for poor B&W owners who refuse to pay for the responsible mistakes of giants like B&W. Shame on them !!!!!!!!!! Good Luck Amigo!!!!

[Kirium]

My comments were not vicious, they were critical. There's a big difference between being vicious and critical.

Nor were my comments attacks. They were critical criticism regarding this isolated situation involving Soundgravy and his speakers. There was no intention on my part to genaralize B & W as a whole and insinuate this is the way they deal with every problem they encounter with their product. These were isloated comments and criticism.

My comments reflect Soundgravy's account of what occured.

Talk about back-pedalling...

There was no intention on my part to genaralize B & W

Is "B&W = bushleague" not a massive generalisation??

When I've had enquiries about my speakers I have always received prompt, courteous and detailed answers to my questions. When the rubber gromets that hold in the speaker grilles started to deteriorate, my dealings with the Aus B&W distibutor were nothing short of a pleasure and I received more grommets than required, at no cost, the very next day.
I have absolutely no complaints about my 600 S3 setup in sound and build quality.

Having said that, I'm not sure what happened between your dealer and B&W, but you can't assume that what happened in this situation is B&W's usual response. Your dealer may have caught the wrong guy on the wrong day. I'm not defending B&W, but the same has happened to me on countless occasions with all sorts of products, like having an issue with a car denied being fixed under warranty at one dealer and fixed with no questions asked at another...

Hope you enjoy those speakers...

[DrJRapp]

my dealings with the Aus B&W distibutor were nothing short of a pleasure and I received more grommets than required, at no cost, the very next day.

That is great support response. Unfortunatly, no such thing here in the US. I received a new pair of XT4s missing some important parts ( the spike feet). It's been 6 weeks since my dealer requested them. I have sent 2 emails to B&W support with no response. With all due respects to prior conversation, I find B&W support to be, as someone else said; "bushleague". Unfortunatly, it's what I have come to expect from all the Equity owned companies.

[JKalman]

Talk about back-pedalling...

Is "B&W = bushleague" not a massive generalisation??

Yeah, it was fairly obvious that he was just viciously bashing B&W, which is probably why everyone just ignored him after he insulted our intelligences by trying to play his comments off as constructive criticism related to Gravy's problem only.

[Aussie Geoff]

Gentlemen,

I think this thread's useful life is over...

Geoff

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I have reopening this thread (somewhat against my better judgement) having had some PM feedback that it could be perceived that I was censoring B&W criticism (which was not what I intended).

Firstly the original problem that lead to the thread has been resolved. I reviewed the last 2 pages of posts since the original problem was fixed (which was the purpose of the thread) and IMO the majority of the posts have been people restating the same thing they had already posted and / or attacks on others or defences of attacks. I.E the thread has become largely internalised with the same people saying the same things and not new value. I also was concerned over the degree of personal criticism that was taking place in the thread.

I do not want to let the forum become a vehicle for people to attack each other or to go in circles and get angry (and neither do the other moderators... We try and pride ourselves on being nice to each other here (something that distinguishes ourselves from many other forums I know).

So please no criticisms of each other and if you have stated a position (in some cases several times) there is no need to restate it… Otherwise I will DEFINETELY close the thread for good!!!!!!!!

Geoff

[Gump]

I don't want to nominate myself as the B&W cheerleader but here is an observation that I don't think should be overlooked:

If you go back over the hundreds (maybe thousands) of threads on this B&W forum I think there have been very, very few that have complained about mechanical problems with their speakers. There may have been some discontentment with the sound of a certain speaker, based upon many variables including personal taste, but as far as manufacturing errors or incompetence the number is extremely, almost astonishingly small.

Compare this to several other forum brands of equipment ( I won't name names to prevent the ire of devoted fans) whose threads are often filled with heart wrenching stories about brand new gear that had to be repeatedly shipped back for replacement or repair. (albeit, speakers are less likely to have problems than electronics based on innate design).

I think B&W stands quite solidly in the reliability department. IMHO.

Did they initially handle Soundgravy's customer service issue as well as they could have? Maybe not, but with their reputation and reliability they certainly deserved the benefit of a second chance before the lynch mob started searching for a tall tree.

I like my speakers. I like B&W, too.

Soundgravy, I'm glad your dealer resolved your issue for you.

[DrJRapp]

I would like to thank Geoff for that bold and almost unprecedented move. Secondly, these threads serve many purposes. One of those purposes is to be able to rant and dis our favorite products here "amongst friends" rather than in the outside world. It really distresses me when I see someone tee off on someone else just because that someone else may have had a problem with a piece of gear and is expressing their displeasure about your favorite brand.

Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those terms loosely).... it's just Audio Equipment!

[shadow]

Thanks Geoff, for, as Jerry said, the unprecedented action of reopening a closed thread. I personally think that the ire portrayed in some posts was the great surprise and consternation brought on by the perceived slight to a customer who paid $8K for his speakers. It seemed so penny wise, pound foolish, and not what we expected from an industry leader like B&W. It has been taken care of and the customer is happy so alls well again. B&W is still at the pinnacle of speaker tech, and, as long as they remember their customer's best interest, they will remain there.

[RobP]

Ladies and Gentlemen (and I use those terms loosely).... it's just Audio Equipment!

Very well put Jerry, if this is what we get worked up over, then our lives must be pretty damn good. There are worse things that people deal with everyday.

[RobP]

Well, the saga is finally over, last night I took my speaker in for repair,the parts finally came in, My dealer fixed it in a jiffy and it sounds great once again. I asked him what B&W said about the whole deal and he said that he had a talk with a rep here in the US, and that he said that he could not believe that it went out of the factory like that, and that B&W was going to cover it with no questions asked. He said that a report was going to be sent to the director of manufacturing about the ordeal.

Now I said that I would post pics, but in my haste, I forgot my camera, so............... please forgive....

[Karma]

HI Robert,
I'm glad this had a good outcome. It sounds like no one intended dishonesty. Maybe dealing with the bureaucracy of an overseas company is more to blame. Anyway, I'm very happy for you. It's good you stuck with it. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Sparky

[RobP]

Thanks Sparky!

[RebelMan]

I asked him what B&W said about the whole deal and he said that he had a talk with a rep here in the US, and that he said that he could not believe that it went out of the factory like that, and that B&W was going to cover it with no questions asked. He said that a report was going to be sent to the director of manufacturing about the ordeal.

Now this is the kind of response and concern that a company the calibur of B&W is noted for and nice to see. Great to hear the positive outcome SG! :T

I believe may faith has been fully restored.