You used to get what you pay for (Rant)

[RobP]

I have always noticed that one of my FST drivers was looser than the other one on my N803's, my dealer tried to tighten it but it was at its max.
Well here lately that drivers voice coil has been sounding a little harsh at times, so I took it in to have it looked at tonight and to get the driver replaced, we had a hell of a time getting the driver nut on the back loose.

After installing the new driver, we couldnt get it even close to being tight again, my dealer couldnt figure out why, so I took the whole top apart and pulled out the rod and T-nut, apparently some slackoff employee of B&W crossthreaded the t-nut on the rod and left it like that. To say the least I was very upset at the fact that this error was allowed to even go out of the factory, :M This is something that you would expect to see from some dimestore product, not a company like B&W. I hope that this is a isolated incident, and I dont find anymore suprises down the road. :naughty:

[Pieter]

Robert, have you e-mailed B&W about the matter? I'm hoping it would concern them too.

[Ryx]

no matter what company it is there will always be the odd thing that gets overlooked or missed. (it is a human trait, we are far from perfict) the thing that makes the differance between a good company and a great company is what they do to correct the error that has occured.

I would let B&W know what has happend, and see what they say. (or do about it)

then let us know how it goes (because you know we wana hear about it )

[RobP]

Pieter, Ryx. I emailed them tonight about the problem. Lets see what they have to say. Ill let you guys know what happens.

[chinets]

I have N803 's,and I wonder how you noticed that one of the FST drivers were loose??? Can you tell immediately?? Is the sound noticable?? Will an Amateur like me tell the difference whether an FST was loose or not?? What are the basic symptoms of a loose FST?? What do I look for or in this case hear for??? Let us all learn here and be aware. Thanks!!! And YES you should let B&W know and send you an appology and to fix it for free and let them admit there mistake as they always state In their ads. that they would never let a B&W 800 series pass their manufacturer without being 100% Perfect?? I guess they skipped one, and you should stick it to them to help all of us out here for the future !!!!!!!!!!!!

[RobP]

Chinets, the way that I could tell that it was loose, is that I could slightly move the driver in the cabinet, it wasnt bad but as picky (other wise known as anal)as I am it concerned me. There was really no sound difference. If it wasnt for the drivers voice coil making a noise I would have never taken it apart to find the mistake.

[PewterTA]

Maybe they need a 130 point inspection system like when buying a used car. LOL

It happens, I'm sure they will fix it without any problems... It just sucks when you hear something like this happens...but if every single speaker came out perfect...the world would end I think.

[RobP]

Here is the response to the email that I sent B&W, the thing that cracks me up is the comment about the tightness of the nut :roll:

I am sorry to hear of the problem with your N803's.

The FST midrange on the N803 was designed not to be too tight, to allow isolation from any cabinet resonances.
To allow for variations in the isolators density and thickness the units were done up to a specific torque level that was tight enough to hold the unit in place, but not so tight as to negate the isolators.
In this instance the nut had clearly cross threaded, so reached the the required torque before the unit was as tight as required.

As you can appreciate this is an unfortunate incident that we are confident happens very rarely.
We record all reported issues and will endeavour to ensure this does not happen again, either through training, process controls or redesign of the product - or in this case future products.

I can only apologise again for the inconvenience that this has caused you.
I am glad to hear your dealer is treating you well, and I hope you enjoy many years of listening pleasure from B&W N803's.

Kind regards.
Martin Boys
Quality Assurance
B&W Group

[RobP]

The comment about the specific torque level on the nut is also in question, In talking with my dealer last night, he says that there is no value given to them on the torque specs, he showed me the tool kit that B&W provides, and there was no device for doing such a task. I wonder what the correct answer is here? :huh:

[RobP]

Things just keep getting better........ Just got off the phone with my dealer and the rod and the tension nut that have to be replaced are going to be on my dime, B&W will not cover these items under warranty. They will not be expensive, but I dont feel that I should have to pay for their mistake. Im starting to feel like that kid in my avatar.

[grit]

Things just keep getting better........ Just got off the phone with my dealer and the rod and the tension nut that have to be replaced are going to be on my dime, B&W will not cover these items under warranty. They will not be expensive, but I dont feel that I should have to pay for their mistake. Im starting to feel like that kid in my avatar.

I've been waiting to see what happens on this. I believe, as someone else said, mistakes happen. So I don't fault B&W there. The fact that you need to replace parts (and labor?) and pay for it out of pocket for THEIR mistake is unacceptable, and surprising to hear from B&W. Perhaps the proverbial left and right hands are not talking to each other? I'd write quality control back and let them know. I hope your dealer already went to bat for you on this and made sure B&W KNOWS why the parts need to be replaced. If it was my company, I'd replace the items even if they were out of warranty if it was a factory error.

[RobP]

Mistakes do happen, I just hate having to pay for them. These speakers are a little over a year old so these things should be covered under warranty. The driver is getting replaced under warranty, so thats a good thing. But the rod is another story. I hate bitching about it too much to my dealer, he is kind of stuck in the middle here. He always treats me great and really gives me great deals on everything I buy, so I dont want to be rough on him over a few bucks and ruin a good relationship.

[Ryx]

I agree with Grit. perhaps the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I find it hard to belive that B&W won't cover those parts under warranty when it was a error on there part. another thing that worries me is that your dealer doesn't have a spec for the nut torque. it is supposed to be at a specific torque in order for the decoupleing to work properly. I belive another e-mail to B&W is in order.

I am sorry to hear that things arnt going to smoothly for you with this issue

[PewterTA]

I would definitely e-mail B&W again stating how they figure that YOU, after buying brand new speakers from them, and doing NO modifications to them should be reponsible for internal problems of the speakers. I mean, had you worked on the speaker yourself, they could have a point there...but this is a problem that came from the factory...so it should be fixed by the factory at no cost to you...

I would keep hounding them until they "break." I'd even go so far to question their aspects of the company if they won't stand behind their products and workmanship... just give them a little grief and you'll do good....

[RobP]

Another email has been sent, this should get interesting. My dealer also contacted them, and B&W said they wont cover the rod and nut. B&Ws take on this is really crappy, this comment really got me......."In this instance the nut had clearly cross threaded, so reached the the required torque before the unit was as tight as required".
Who says something like that? "Well we broke it just enough to work" :roll:

[dan87951]

Wow that comes to a suprise that B&W would do that. Expecially since not many people spend thousands of dollars on speakers like we do, so if they screw one customer and word of mouth gets around doesn't leave much for sales on their end. B&W is in a very nich market I think they would do all they can in order to accommodate you. B&W's response just makes my jaw drop.... wonder how my 802's were built now... I would also email B&W and let them know about this thread.

[grit]

Good point. I love my B&W speakers, but I also looked at Ariel Acoustics and Thiel. I'd have no problem switching brands when I upgrade (or make recommedations to others), especially if there was a question as to how I could expect my warranty and customer service to be handled.

[RebelMan]

SG, B&W needs to cover those parts under your warranty. Perhaps you can attack this issue from another angle by taking it up with B&W's PR department, pronto. Another member of this forum might be very helpful here also. Have you tried contacting him?

[RobP]

Not yet, that will be on tomorrows agenda, Im not done with it yet. Im on a mission now. :takecover:

[RobP]

You know whats funny about all of this, I finally got to see the "magic" that comprises the FST system, its basicly a piece of M6 All thread that holds that driver in. Nothing very special in the engineering there.

[Ryx]

Another email has been sent, this should get interesting. My dealer also contacted them, and B&W said they wont cover the rod and nut. B&Ws take on this is really crappy, this comment really got me......."In this instance the nut had clearly cross threaded, so reached the the required torque before the unit was as tight as required".
Who says something like that? "Well we broke it just enough to work" :roll:

I don't belive that was what the B&W reprasentative ment (we broke it just enough to work) when he said
"In this instance the nut had clearly cross threaded, so reached the the required torque before the unit was as tight as required."

to me it sounds like he means "we broke it in such a way that the problem was missed, leaving the driver to lose to work properly"

when I read that quote, I understand it as the nut being cross threaded caused the torqueing process to not work properly leaving the unit to lose which is not good.

this sounds to me like a reson as to why they missed the problem, not to say that they purposely left it that way because it was to spec (the nut tourque would be to spec but the driver would not be properly tightend because of the stripped part)

I am interested to see how they respond to to your second e-mail. (and I hope you didn't go off on them because you thought what they were saying in the first mail was that what happend was ok, because that is not how I read it at all)

[RobP]

No, I never go off on people until I really need to, I dont think this will reach that point. I see what you are saying there on how to take that comment, but if you had ever put one of these together you would know that if its not spinning on by hand then there is a problem. It was a mistake that someone made and just didnt care to fix. Its just like putting a lugnut on a wheel, you know real quick if it is crossthreaded.

[Race Car Driver]

To fill my curiosity, whats the price on the rod and nut?
Heh, just curious, and GOOD LUCK! Its quite obvious whos responsible, and im sure if B&W knew exaclty what the deal was, they wouldnt make such a fuss over a small part.

As im sure you will, keep us updated.

[junior77blue]

From the description, about $1 at a local homedepot....lol.....

I can understand how this happenend, they are obvisouly torquing to a 'certain' torque neglecting if it was threaded properly or not. But they should cover it regardless. If they want to do good by their name, they will fix it regardless. Brand loyalty is big in home audio....and once a manufacturer leaves a 'bad' taste 'we' are quick to jump ship.

[DrJRapp]

Robert P.

That situation really doesn't speak very well for a manufacturer that tout's it's build quality as much as B&W does. It amazes me how iressposible that appears to be.

I had already developed some major doubts about future B&W purchases due to performance and quality issues I have experienced with the XT4s. Your situation is just about all the evidence that I need to look elsewhere.

[RobP]

Jerry, I am sorry to see that you are not happy with your new speakers, I hope that you can find something that pleases you, after all this stuff is supposed to bring a element of enjoyment into our lives not headaches.
I still love the sound of my speakers but some of the shiny glossy coat that B&W markets is starting to tarnish in my eyes.

[RobP]

From the description, about $1 at a local homedepot....lol.....

I can understand how this happenend, they are obvisouly torquing to a 'certain' torque neglecting if it was threaded properly or not. But they should cover it regardless. If they want to do good by their name, they will fix it regardless. Brand loyalty is big in home audio....and once a manufacturer leaves a 'bad' taste 'we' are quick to jump ship.

I agree with you 100% Junior.

[RobP]

To fill my curiosity, whats the price on the rod and nut?
Heh, just curious, and GOOD LUCK! Its quite obvious whos responsible, and im sure if B&W knew exaclty what the deal was, they wouldnt make such a fuss over a small part.

As im sure you will, keep us updated.

I should find out in a few days how much it will be, with the holidays upon us things are running behind a bit. I will advise on what the whole thing cost. I am going to post pics as well, so folks can really see what goes on inside. (thoughts of the Wizard of Oz runs through my head with B&W saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!")

[caleb]

O.K. Jerry - see you on another forum byeeeeeee.

[tony2004]

Hi robert,
I was wondering how far does the nut have to travel down the rod . Is it a couple of turns before it reaches it's tourqe settings or does it have a fair way to travel. One should know within a turn or two if the the nut is being cross threaded.
That said if the nut has a fair bit to travel , it's clear that B&W are at fault , because
even this kind of human error is easily picked up straight away.
cheers
Anthony

[DrJRapp]

O.K. Jerry - see you on another forum byeeeeeee.

Not so quickly....I'll still be here. I do own the XT4s till I decide what to replace them with. Besides, the guys in other speaker forums are just bums and nerds....who wants to hang out there.....LOL

[RobP]

Well, here is a copy of the latest Email from B&W concerning the torque specs on the FST driver..................

Hello Robert,

Your dealer is correct about the amount of pressure we expect to be applied when this assembly is serviced.
It just needs to be compressing the isolation a little, but not so much that it's stiff - finger tight.

This is fine when you're servicing the occasional unit, however we produce several hundred units a day and require a more consistent process.
We therefore use a torque driver set to 0.25 Nm ± 0.05Nm which is checked on a weekly basis.
We also use a threadlock to ensure that the assembly doesn't rattle loose during transit, or come apart when the transit bolt is removed.
It means that the torque required to undo the assembly is much greater than that used initially to assemble it.

The volume of products we produce on a daily basis requires that we have repeatable processes in place.
Mistakes will still be made, and these are regrettable, but we aim to keep them to a minimum through process controls and training.

I am confident that your dealer will be able to ensure that the unit is done up to the correct level.

[Marlboroman]

Remember that you are emailing someone in the UK and your dealer is contacting the B&W parts department in the US. I doubt the US knew the entire story and that is why they probably thought it was damaged by either you or your dealer and that is why they were going to charge. I would not be too quick to attack all of this when it can probably be taken care of with just a call or two from your dealer. As far as questioning the quality of B&W and all that crap I would say that they have proven themselves over the years and do not have to prove themselves anymore. If you are not happy with some speakers that you purchased then talk with your dealer and see if they will let you return them.

[RobP]

Hi robert,
I was wondering how far does the nut have to travel down the rod . Is it a couple of turns before it reaches it's tourqe settings or does it have a fair way to travel. One should know within a turn or two if the the nut is being cross threaded.
That said if the nut has a fair bit to travel , it's clear that B&W are at fault , because
even this kind of human error is easily picked up straight away.
cheers
Anthony

Hello Anthony,
The nut travels down the rod about 1/4". Plus according to the latest email from B&W, the torque setting is mainly for consistency in the manufacturing process.

[RobP]

Remember that you are emailing someone in the UK and your dealer is contacting the B&W parts department in the US. I doubt the US knew the entire story and that is why they probably thought it was damaged by either you or your dealer and that is why they were going to charge. I would not be too quick to attack all of this when it can probably be taken care of with just a call or two from your dealer. As far as questioning the quality of B&W and all that crap I would say that they have proven themselves over the years and do not have to prove themselves anymore. If you are not happy with some speakers that you purchased then talk with your dealer and see if they will let you return them.

Marlboroman, you are assuming way too much in your comments, my dealer has contacted more than just the parts department, and yes B&W knows the whole story from my dealer so that point is moot.
Also, I guess since B&W has proven themselves over the years that in itself releases them from any liabilities in the future? Who is spewing the "crap" now? :roll:

[RebelMan]

SG, B&W’s apathetic replies are unacceptable. They need to stand behind their product and service your problem at no cost to you, period!

[PewterTA]

Send B&W the link to this thread to show them that there are more people than just you concerned with how they are treating you in this case, so they can see what their customers thoughts are.

[NMyTree]

Poor job by B & W.

Inexcusable!

Their responses are a joke.......they're clearly in the arrogance territory.



Marlboroman, your comments are absurd.

" As far as questioning the quality of B&W and all that crap I would say that they have proven themselves over the years and do not have to prove themselves anymore. "

You know what happens when companies are given this kind of pass or they themselves become so full of themselves? They become pompus, arrogant and self-righteous. Which usually leads to them using poor designs, inferior materials and parts, slacking in quality control and a continued increase in prices. That's what happens when companies are given a pass.

[shadow]

What Tony said. It also applies to any company that deals with customers. The day any company feels it can rest on its past accomplishments is the first day of its demise. There are plenty of savvy competitors ready to take its place immediately. BTW, I have owned Thiel and Martin Logan speakers and based on my first hand experience with each of those companies, this kind of fiasco would never happen with either of them or, I suspect, any other high end speaker company.

[GosonFletchy]

I think you all should watch what you are posting. I am reading this and I see a lot of blame when the only people that can state facts about this are those with the first hand experience. The customer, the dealer, and the people that are involved at B&W. I know that there are many people in the world, this forum included, that jump to conclusions or make demands that are unreasonable. Do not attack others for their opinions just because it is different from yours. Yes, B&W should stand behind this repair and I have all confidence that they will. Through my dealings with B&W I would say that there has been a terrible misunderstanding somewhere along the way although I can not say first hand since I have not spoken with them. I suggest that you just continue contacting your dealer and find out who he spoke with that told him that they were going to charge you and then call them and speak with them. It will get sorted out and I am sure that when it is over you will be happy. As for Marlboroman's comment about proving themselves, No, they do not HAVE to prove themselves to anyone. I guess it is lucky for us they continue to prove how good of a company there are every day though.

G.

:grab:

[shadow]

Yeh, right, one customer at a time like the original poster eh? They are proving themselves quite well so far. :roll:

[RobP]

Well I guess the audio gods are smiling on me today, I called the shop today about some speakers that my wife wants, and at the end of the phone call he said that they are go ahead and take care of the rod and nut that the factory messed up, he said he will just charge it back to B&W and they will have to deal with it. :T I like this guys attitude!! He also gave me an additional discount on the speakers. So I guess in the end it really worked out in my favor.
I am still going to post pics of the inside of the cabinet and the rod system so we can see the inner workings of those cabinets.

[JKalman]

Congrats Gravy, I was waiting to see how this all panned out. Sounds like you got a great dealer there. I feel that way about the guys I deal with also, they always go out on a limb for their loyal customers.

[RebelMan]

Well I guess the audio gods are smiling on me today...

Either that or they got wind of this thread. They say many hands make light work. I say many voices sends a clear message.

I am still going to post pics of the inside of the cabinet and the rod system so we can see the inner workings of those cabinets.

Hurry up!

[NMyTree]

I'm not going to congratulate you, Soundgravy, because it should have been taken care of ......at no charge to you.....by B & W, in the first place!!!

Good to see your dealer is grabbing the bull by the horns! Looks like he's a good guy.........good Dealer!


B & W=bushleague