B&W 803 with digital amp?

[yfei]

How will the new digital amps drive B&W 803?
Such as Rotel 1077, Bel Canto evo series, NuForce, and .... ?

[Djas_Puhr]

I have a single Bel Canto eVo2 (gen II) driving my N803's and it does an excellent job in my mid-sized room. Running monoblocks would certainly be a better listening experience, but I don't have much to complain about running a single amp in stereo...

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I have a friend with the new 802Ds who drives them very well with his Bel Canto Evo2i amplifier... Amazing - the digital 125W seems to do better than the 500W McIntoshes!!!

So I'd be very confident with the 803Ds

Geoff

[jim777]

I have a friend with the new 802Ds who drives them very well with his Bel Canto Evo2i amplifier... Amazing - the digital 125W seems to do better than the 500W McIntoshes!!!

:E

Why do I have such a hard time believing in this new technology (even being an engineer..)

Still keeping my mc

[Andrew M Ward]

:E

Why do I have such a hard time believing in this new technology (even being an engineer..)

Still keeping my mc

Look, I'm only going to say this 50 more times!

I sat in front of Krell LAT-1's (2 Ohms) being driven like hounds from hell by a 100 watt Rotel 1077 at volumes, here to fore, unmentionable...

Have faith

these are not the droids you're looking for...

this shi% kicks ass... read the reviews, wattage is almost meaningless in this category. The 1077 doubles down as resistance changes and the SPL’s are ridiculous. It’s not like where you came from.

We’re not in Kansas anymore, all the rules have changed.

[jim777]

Well to me, it looks like zero output impedance (W=V^2/R). That means infinite feedback gain. It must be true that all the rules have changed, because that means that heavy feedback is now OK in the digital world... transient oscillations (with big feedback) in the time domain is gone by magic, I assume.

I don't know when I will be able to listen to this stuff for myself, because you guys all look really serious about it (what do you want, I don't think that my dealer will get any 1077 for demo, because he doesn't believe in digital more than me..)

But I'm not the kind of guy that will ditch something that he didn't hear, so I'll try to remain silent about digital after this post

But you have a point: SS is made for switching and not for analog. So maybe that people were on drugs for 20-30 years (well, '69 didn't help :lol: ) and we just didn't see that you don't design a SS amp like a tube amp; you gotta do it in switching mode.

Anyway, it's just cool people can get the sound they want for the price they want
If thats true, well the goal is reached!

[Jmac]

Notwithstanding that people have different allegiances re brands, I have a Sony TA-DA9000ES integrated digital amp, and it is far and away one of the very best performing/sounding amps I've heard in nearly forty years of being involved in music and HiFi, and easily the best amp I've ever owned.

I might add I've also listened to other highly regarded amps such as Krell, Audio Research tubes etc, as well as my own Naim-Audio equipment, and basically prefer the digital Sony.

I don't think any amp is 'the last' word in amplification, as there will always be sonic and performance tradeoffs, and of course personal preference; however I firmly believe digital amplification is the way of the future, re very high performance at prices real world enthusiasts can afford.

Or to put it another way, even if I could afford it, I'd take the digital Sony over the top Naim NAP 500, which I have heard, and despite being a Naim owner and fan. Here in Australia, that's a price difference of AU$34,000.00. Think about it...Enter a whole new paradigm of price/performance IMHO....

As to the ability to drive B&W's etc - I have it on hearsay that when Sony released it in the UK, they staged an SACD multi-channel music demo with it driving FIVE B&W Nautilus 801's, and I am aware of two forum owners with the TA-DA9000ES driving B&W 801's with reported great success and satisfaction. Indeed, I am under the impression (again hearsay) that the amp was voiced with B&W 800 series as the control.

I don't think you'd have any problems with such an amp driving any of the B&W line. Certainly I have no problems driving my Naim SBL speakers, which in design and engineering terms would be roughly equivalent to 803's (not the diamond tweeter model).

Best regards

John.... :T

[yfei]

In the US I only find Sony STR-DA9000ES, TA-DA9000ES seems only available in the UK. Do you know if they are the same?

Notwithstanding that people have different allegiances re brands, I have a Sony TA-DA9000ES integrated digital amp, and it is far and away one of the very best performing/sounding amps I've heard in nearly forty years of being involved in music and HiFi, and easily the best amp I've ever owned.

[jericho]

Waiting for my new amps (McIntosh), i'm using a Kenwood amplifier to drive my 800D.I also get a very good sound, and you also can play them very loud but once you compare that sound with the sound and detail you're getting from amplifiers like McIntosh, Classé, Krell, ....your can hear the difference.But I agree everyone has to make his own choice, according to what he likes and what he can afford.I've heard B&W systems a lot cheaper than the Nautilus line playing much better because the room was just made for it.

[PavelL]

http://www.bryston.ca/newsletters/91_files/vol9is1.html

Any comments on this?

[Jmac]

Yfei said:

In the US I only find Sony STR-DA9000ES, TA-DA9000ES seems only available in the UK. Do you know if they are the same?

Yes, with the proviso that the TA-DA model is for euro and asian markets; hence what we get here in Australia. The US (STR) model is the same, except it is a bit better speced with a tuner, 12 volt triggers etc, and better remote. Be aware also that there is an update in the wings, the STR-DA9100ES which will have HDMI video switching etc. Additionally, the US model seems available in silver and black, whereas we get black and champagne. Go figure, but from reports the sound is the same, only minor connection features etc to suit the different markets.

PavelL, yes, I've read that newsletter - at the end of the day it's only one designers viewpoint - and I'm not an electrical engineer to be able to refute it. However, do some reading on the internet, and one will find products like Bel Canto, NuForce etc all very highly regarded re reviews on their sound. Note also for instance, that Rotel have introduced a 7 channel digital amp using B&O ICE power technology, with stereo and monoblocks to follow.

It is interesting that at the current Heathrow show in the UK, Naim have just released a one box DVD/processor/5 channel amp machine, using Tripath Class-T digital amplification. They have been staunch analogue diehards for many years. I'm sure if the sound wasn't up to it, they wouldn't likely be releasing it IMHO.

Bottom line I guess is to use your ears and see if you like what you hear.

Hope this helps

Best Regards

John.... :-)

[PavelL]

O.K. Must be good if they are selling it and making $$$ :B Every design will have it's pros and cons. I do agree however that we have ears to judge for ourselves.

[Indytown]

O.K. Must be good if they are selling it and making $$$ :B Every design will have it's pros and cons. I do agree however that we have ears to judge for ourselves.

From what I have heard, late December early January Bel Canto is introducing a 500 watt mono block amp which you do not have to bridge to get to max watts.

So we have:

Rotel 500 watt mono's -ICE
Bel Canto 500 watt mono's -ICE
Naim ??? watts Tri-path
PS Audio 500 watt mono's
Jeff Roland 500 watt mono's -ICE


All, these at different price points.

Nu Force 150 watt mono's

[yfei]

And also Sony DA9000ES.

An article (I don't remember where I read it) mentioned, both ICEpower and Tri-path has a high frequency hiss sound, just like the 16k sound coming from conventional TV set. However NuForce don't have such hiss (because it is kind of 'analog' digital amp).

Now I am very interested in Sony DA9000ES, for the sound and functionality: direct dsd input, and adjust the phase of low frequency band (<60Hz).
The low freq phase is a problem, because analog amp will shift the phase to 90 degree at low freq, so some speakers (like B&W, i think) built in some circuit to shift the phase back 90 degree. Digital amp don't suffer such phase shift at low freq, so the circuit in the speaker will shift the bass to wrong phase and will result in an exagrated warm bass.
Sony DA9000ES allow user to set low freq phase shift, that will be very useful.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA9000ES_TWP.pdf

Hope there will be a horizontal comparison of these digital amps, currently there is no review comparing digital to digital.

So we have:
Rotel 500 watt mono's -ICE
Bel Canto 500 watt mono's -ICE
Naim ??? watts Tri-path
PS Audio 500 watt mono's
Jeff Roland 500 watt mono's -ICE
Nu Force 150 watt mono's

[Indytown]

And also Sony DA9000ES.

An article (I don't remember where I read it) mentioned, both ICEpower and Tri-path has a high frequency hiss sound, just like the 16k sound coming from conventional TV set. However NuForce don't have such hiss (because it is kind of 'analog' digital amp).

Now I am very interested in Sony DA9000ES, for the sound and functionality: direct dsd input, and adjust the phase of low frequency band (<60Hz).
The low freq phase is a problem, because analog amp will shift the phase to 90 degree at low freq, so some speakers (like B&W, i think) built in some circuit to shift the phase back 90 degree. Digital amp don't suffer such phase shift at low freq, so the circuit in the speaker will shift the bass to wrong phase and will result in an exagrated warm bass.
Sony DA9000ES allow user to set low freq phase shift, that will be very useful.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/STRDA9000ES_TWP.pdf

Hope there will be a horizontal comparison of these digital amps, currently there is no review comparing digital to digital.

Sounds like a very nice piece of equipment, I would think though to drive a 2 channel system and optimize it for the attributes of listening to two channel, mono blocks with higher current and watts are the way to go, even if class D or T or G.

Speakers open up or bloom when they are feed current that aproaches their maximum handling.

So 802D, 500 watt max., I would look for 400 to 500 to drive them to get the best results.

800D would require 500 watt min using lower end amps, since their power handling is 1000 watts.

I know people will say you need a bigger room higher SPL to justify the higher watts, true, but speaker open up better at lower volumes if you have the right current going to them.

[Aussie Geoff]

IndyTown,

Thanks for bringing this thread back on topic...

For people that want to discuss the Sony Digital amps and recievers there is a nice thread here

Geoff

[nyny]

Before purchasing my 804S, I demoed both the 804S and the 803S with Jeff Rowland's 201 Monos (they use ICEPower). I was impressed with how effortless these amps drove the speakers and how well controlled the bass sounded. I ended up going home with the Jeff Rowland Concerto Integrated and 804S. I truly enjoy my current two-channel setup.

[Andrew M Ward]

Well to me, it looks like zero output impedance (W=V^2/R). That means infinite feedback gain. It must be true that all the rules have changed, because that means that heavy feedback is now OK in the digital world... transient oscillations (with big feedback) in the time domain is gone by magic, I assume.

I don't know when I will be able to listen to this stuff for myself, because you guys all look really serious about it (what do you want, I don't think that my dealer will get any 1077 for demo, because he doesn't believe in digital more than me..)

But I'm not the kind of guy that will ditch something that he didn't hear, so I'll try to remain silent about digital after this post

But you have a point: SS is made for switching and not for analog. So maybe that people were on drugs for 20-30 years (well, '69 didn't help :lol: ) and we just didn't see that you don't design a SS amp like a tube amp; you gotta do it in switching mode.

Anyway, it's just cool people can get the sound they want for the price they want
If thats true, well the goal is reached!

Sadness enters my heart, when I see posts such as this. Lame dealers with no interest in new technology and old school technicians with a mind on just what they (think-they) know and limited imagination to perhaps be introduced to a new technology.

Yes it can’t be real (Like 18inch satellite, as I was told was impossible)

Never mind, please look away, I’m sure this will all go away, like 18 inch satellite has..

Crazy bastards... :lol: they keep coming up with new technologies and we keep telling them they'll never work... how do bumble bee's fly again?

[bigburner]

http://www.bryston.ca/newsletters/91_files/vol9is1.html

Any comments on this?

It reminds me of when I worked for the Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) in the early 90's. DEC made great mini computers but was in complete denial when it came to PC's. The rest is history (just like DEC).

[jim777]

Sadness enters my heart, when I see posts such as this. Lame dealers with no interest in new technology and old school technicians with a mind on just what they (think-they) know and limited imagination to perhaps be introduced to a new technology.

Ok, I said that I hope that I could give it a listen, and I really meant an open minded listen. I just find it funny that the "audiophile" group that don't stop talking about moderate or no feedback, etc, are now embrassing digital amps.

I even find the Bryston article funny. It ditches digital amps "in an old school" manner like Andrew would say, because it talks about problems that I think don't exist anymore (have been technically resolved) in newer amps like Rotel's.

I'm sorry to be treated like a closed mind old school technician when I'm a young audio research engineer who is just questionning, not ditching, the new technology. I think that it is the only way to understand it better so that more people (including my dealer..) give it a try.

As I said, I WANT to give it a listen.

I just hope that Andrew didn't want to bring this personnal and insult me; because it is written in my profile that I'm not a technician. At least in Canada, the difference between a technician and a professionnal engineer isn't nothing... Just to make it clear, the worst insult you can make to an engineer in Quebec is calling him a technician. And not understanding his questionning of a technology (or his not admitting that he understands 100% of it) doesn't make him a technician...

Sorry that I simply questionned fellow "open minded" audiophiles...

[Andrew M Ward]

Ok, I said that I hope that I could give it a listen, and I really meant an open minded listen. I just find it funny that the "audiophile" group that don't stop talking about moderate or no feedback, etc, are now embrassing digital amps.

I even find the Bryston article funny. It ditches digital amps "in an old school" manner like Andrew would say, because it talks about problems that I think don't exist anymore (have been technically resolved) in newer amps like Rotel's.

I'm sorry to be treated like a closed mind old school technician when I'm a young audio research engineer who is just questionning, not ditching, the new technology. I think that it is the only way to understand it better so that more people (including my dealer..) give it a try.

As I said, I WANT to give it a listen.

I just hope that Andrew didn't want to bring this personnal and insult me; because it is written in my profile that I'm not a technician. At least in Canada, the difference between a technician and a professionnal engineer isn't nothing... Just to make it clear, the worst insult you can make to an engineer in Quebec is calling him a technician. And not understanding his questionning of a technology (or his not admitting that he understands 100% of it) doesn't make him a technician...

Sorry that I simply questionned fellow "open minded" audiophiles...

Whoah!
Sorry... No harm intended. That was a foul on my part.

IF you could see my face you would know I was having fun with the whole thing.. I will read your profile now and perhaps aplogize again.

ops:

[Andrew M Ward]

We have similar hobbies, I play guitar and listen music too... :T

[jim777]

Sorry... No harm intended.

Thanks.

Now can someone send me a digital amp free so that I can listen for myself :lol:

Hope you won't crucify me if a stick with good'old 2ch Mc's though...

[Andrew M Ward]

Thanks.

Now can someone send me a digital amp free so that I can listen for myself :lol:

Hope you won't crucify me if a stick with good'old 2ch Mc's though...

I'm basically a two channel guy, it's all about the muisc for me.

Moby Grape
Chocolate Watchband
Cactus
Frijid Pink
The Electric Prunes

to name a few

[RobP]

I would be real interested in hearing the N803's with the new Rotel 1077. If anyone has please post!

[RebelMan]

I would be real interested in hearing the N803's with the new Rotel 1077. If anyone has please post!

Ditto.

Jerry mentioned that he hopes his dealer will provide this opportunity with the 803D's. I believe such a demonstration would provide some insight into the 1077's possibilities with the N803's and 803S's.