802D’s what’s the competition?

[james_dmi]

I had been aiming at upgrading to 803D’s about now. However I have read enough comments on this board and elsewhere that have persuaded me that I need to check out the 802D’s before I take the plunge. So as not to break my golden rule I’m going to delay things a little until I have the extra funds available (end September). In the mean time I want to get together a list of credible alternatives to the 802D. I’m sure the 802D’s will be what I will go for but there is no way I can drop £8K on speakers until I know they are the ones for me. I need to get the list sorted before hand so I can find dealers that have the other speakers (and preferable the 802 as well). So my question is for 802D owners, potential owners or anyone else who has an opinion: What other speakers should I be listening to? I will also be buying a new power amp to go with whatever speakers so if you know good combinations with any of your recommendations that would be very useful too.

Any speaker must fill the following criteria:

• I have a wide range of musical tastes so I don’t want anything that is just very good at one type of music.
• I need something that will fill a large space (6.5m x 5.5m x 5m).
• I am only interested in a 2Ch music setup for now but of course something that comes from a brand with partnering HT speakers could be of use in the future.

Many thanks in advance,

James.

[xk8boy]

James, you'll going to find it difficult to find a dealer stocking many high-end speaker brands together. Its either one make or anther.

Before I chose my B&W I also compare speakers by JMLab. Every company have their selling widget. For B&W its their diamond tweeters, for JMLab its their Beryllium tweeters. It was a close call, I could have swung either way if it wasnt for the fact that I I feel in love with the Classe delta products. Classe and B&W to me are a great match and, dare I say it, value for money.

Once you reached this pinnacle of highend enthusiast's Hi-Fi think carefully about matching the components and source.

[james_dmi]

Thanks I will look into the JMLab stuff. What would you say were the strengths weaknesses of the JM's vs B&W. BTW which JM Lab product were you comparing to?

I’m not too worried about finding a dealer with everything together although it would be good to find one that has the recommended product and the 802D as a benchmark.

Anyone else??

[kylek100]

Some major competition for B&W's 800 series is Wilson. Check out their sophia's and Watt/Puppy 7.

[jericho]

Take a look at Sonus Faber Amati.

[james_dmi]

Just looked up the Sophia but at £12,000 this is more a competitor for the 800D not the 802D. And the Watt/Puppy is £22,490 which would put it up against the Nautilus snail! Way above my league!

Sonus Faber Amati is £11,000 which again is too much of a stretch.

But thanks for the advice anyway I have had a look into these companies anyway to see what they do have in my price range, £8000 to match the 802D (Which is my absolute maximum)

So for JMLab we have the Diva Utopia Be @ £7559 so that can start my shortlist (will try and find some reviews online)

Sonus Faber there seams to be a bit of a gap in their range with the Amati @ £11,000 (too much) and then the Cremona @ £4998.00 will this stand up to the 802D

Wilson Audio doesn’t seam to have anything below the Sophia other then a bookshelf speaker. I can’t find a price on that but I really want a full bandwidth design for my large room anyway.

[greggz]

Just looked up the Sophia but at £12,000 this is more a competitor for the 800D not the 802D. And the Watt/Puppy is £22,490 which would put it up against the Nautilus snail! Way above my league!

You asked for comparable speakers, not comparably priced speakers.

What you are witnessing is the economies of scale and market penetration that enable B&W to bring you a high performance speaker for less money than its peers. (B&W sells 50% of the world’s speakers priced at $2000/pr or more.)

JM/Focal is also large enough that they can offer a lot of speaker for the money.

[kylek100]

You guys get totally screwed on price in the UK if you're paying that much. Those prices you listed are what the speakers cost here in dollars. The Sophia's are $12,000 USD.

[Rolex]

Kylek100 is right. In the US, the 802D and Wilson Sophia are the same price.

[Seeme]

You can check out the following as well:

Dali Euphonia MS-5 - I ended up with these after doing my upgrade search.
Infinity Prelude/MTS System
Soliloquy 6.5
Sonus Faber Cremona
Talon RavenC

Check this link out as they give a great write up on them.

http://www.thatslifemag.com/audiovideo/ancillaryspeakercomponents2.asp

I heard the Wilson's as well directly compared to the 802D and I like the 802D better then the Sophia but the Watt/Puppy 7 sounded better to me then both of them but at a higher cost. :W

The thing you will find is that the B&W will sound better than a lot of systems but only if it's matted with the right electronics. Some of the other speakers will sound better when mixing and matching but that's usually the best they will sound. B&W will take some time and effort to find the right match for you...

[Andrew M Ward]

What you are witnessing is the economies of scale and market penetration that enable B&W to bring you a high performance speaker for less money than its peers. (B&W sells 50% of the world’s speakers priced at $2000/pr or more.)

JM/Focal is also large enough that they can offer a lot of speaker for the money.

Fascinating isn't it. B&W captures that much market and does not sell through mass merchadisers or chains. JM LAbs just cut a deal with tweeter.

watch their products turn to crap... frankly it's sad, cause' i love their speakers.

Just my 2 cents
Andrew M Ward

[Fraise]

For B&W its their diamond tweeters, for JMLab its their Beryllium tweeters.

Why not skip these fancy tweeters all together and go with electrostatic panels? i went from 803's to martin logan Ascents and have never looked back. Granted they were older 803's, not the diamonds, they were still fantastic speakers but the panels to me seem to just have more life to them. anyways...I'll end now since i dont want to sound like a salesman but keep them in mind if you have a local dealer.

[Cowanrg]

i would take a pair of magnepan 3.6R's and a good sub over a pair of 802D's any day of the week, but thats just me.

[james_dmi]

Dali Euphonia MS-5: They look interesting and have good reviews but I have not been able to track down a UK price for these yet (or for that matter a dealer) does anyone know where and how much these are??

On being screwed on price: That why they call it “Rip-off-Britain” (http://www.rip-off.co.uk/) So from this side of the pond looks like its going to be even harder to find competition for B&W.

[tboooe]

Excuse the ignorance but what are electrostatic speakers?

[Seeme]

Try here for the Dali's

DALI UK
Barnaby Wheller
Lyde House, Greywell Road
Up Nately, Hook
Hampshire RG27 9PJ
Phone : 0845 644 3537/07990 528 790
Web : www.dali-uk.co.uk
Email : bw@dali.dk

I got it off of the web http://www.dali.dk/Page.asp?MMID=4&P...pid=2&subid=60

http://www.dali-usa.com

Tbooe - In a nutshell here is a quick explaination - electrical charges repel one-another and "unlike" electrical charges attract one-another. Using this principle, let's construct a conceptual electrostatic speaker

Martin Login's & Magapans are some of the better known makers.

http://www.magnepan.com/

[Fraise]

Martin Login's & Magapans are some of the better known makers.

one thing to note about those to manufacturers is martin logan are not true electrostats, they're hybrids as they use a single or combination of subs for the lower frequency range unless you go with the really old ones. The maggies are full range electrostats.

For mixed music and HT use i'd lean towards martin logan.

[james_dmi]

Thanks everyone for you help. I now have the beginnings of a list of speakers to consider. I have had to discount some speakers that have been recommended down to my domestic situation. This discounts any speakers that have a large front aspect because the only place I can site them is in front of our windows. So the Electrostatics although interesting can’t be considered even though I can see that in other situations where they could be against a wall they would be less imposing then normal speakers. Also discounted purely on the aesthetic are the high end PMC’s two big black blocks are just not going to get past the girlfriend. So the shortlist so far is:

• Dali Euphonia MS-5 @ £8500, the cornflake shop: This is over the budget so they will have to be very special indeed, they also look like they will be very amplifier demanding perhaps even more so then the 802D’s (4 ohm nominal and 3.3 minimum) I must say I do like they way these look. (Thanks Seeme for the contact info)
• Vivid Audio B1 @ £7500, the cornflake shop: These were actually designed by the same guy who designed the original Snail Nautilus. They look pretty cool although they may turn out to be a bit too contemporary for girlfriend.
• Sonus Faber Cremona @ £5000. I still need to find somewhere to listen to these preferably in London and also need to find some reviews. They look nice and the price is certainly a bonus.
• JMLab Diva Utopia Be @ just over £7500, Again I need to find a dealer for these. I cant find much info on these people seam to mostly talk about speakers further up or down the range.
• B&W 802D’s @ £8000, Grahams Hi-Fi: A lot of good stuff about this one but then you all know that.
• B&W 803D’s @£5500, Grahams Hi-Fi: I have already listened to these and was blown away by the sound. This is the benchmark I will be judging the rest by and more importantly judging any performance gains against price gains.
• Tannoy TD12 @£6500 (but sold for £5000 or less in many places) I have added this to keep my brother happy who is a big Tannoy nut but also someone I need to bring with me to the demos to keep my feet on the ground.

If anyone thinks I’m missing something here or if you have opinions/ experience with any of the above then please let me know.

Many thanks

James.

[Seeme]

Hi James,

Looks like you have a pretty nice list there. Be sure to use the same listening material and happy listen to you.

By the way the TD12 are actually very nice speakers, some of the best that Tannoy has made. Also the Dali's are very amp friendly, they are not has demanding as the B&W. :W

Have fun and let us know how it goes.

[james_dmi]

Hi Seeme,

I have no idea what to expect with the Tannoys my only reluctance is in the retro styling but sometimes pictures don’t do a product justice. My Brother uses Tannoy D900's which are huge things with 2 12 inch drivers. They sound very nice and warm and even quite realistic but I always feel like they are missing out some of the detail. Maybe this new design will answer that criticism. BTW do you know a good Tannoy dealer in the London area? Its odd as Tannoy are an English brand but they don’t seam to be promoted over here at all.

It will be a while before I can report back on this. I’m not going to start listening tests until October / November time (don’t have the time with work now) I just wanted to get a list of products together so that I can start collecting reviews and opinions as well as finding dealers where I can listen to each one. I will then take a few days off and have a serious few days listening at a few places round London.

James

[Seeme]

Hi James,

I know what you mean about finding the time... I listen to these while I was traveling in German but I'm not sure about London. It's odd, because one would think that there would be plenty of dealers in that area.

Also did you read this review? http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...noy/index.html

[Andorian]

Hi James,

Take a change to compare the 803D, vs 802D, head to head...
believe me, the difference, is more than the sum of the equivalent.
I learned it the hard way (i bought 803D at first but returned them within a half year), once you hear the 802D , you dont mind waiting, for your funds.

I have them changed just one week now, and i am convinced ...
the mids will be the consern from day one in the 803D. The 802Ds are open warm, and overwhelming, and not boxed in...

The bass is only slightly lower, but so much controlled and above ALL Shielded from its surroundings (My room is small and the 803D were far more problematic to be positioned than the 802D are now, they just blend in).

Ps. xk8boy, misterdoggy, you were right all along.

Andor.

[james_dmi]

Hi James,

The bass is only slightly lower, but so much controlled and above ALL Shielded from its surroundings (My room is small and the 803D were far more problematic to be positioned than the 802D are now, they just blend in).

Ps. xk8boy, misterdoggy, you were right all along.

Andor.

Hi Andor,

Thanks for the input. When you say the base was only slightly lower are you referring to less base or lower frequencies (deeper base) and which product had the "lower base". I have a large room and one thing I want to ensure is that whatever I get will have the power in the lower registers to fill it.

Many thanks

James.

[james_dmi]

Hi James,

I know what you mean about finding the time... I listen to these while I was traveling in German but I'm not sure about London. It's odd, because one would think that there would be plenty of dealers in that area.

Also did you read this review? http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeak...noy/index.html

Yep read that one. It sounds good, but not the most enthusiastic review. It also leaves me a little worried with room compatibility. Its starting to look like the one speaker I will not be able to try at home will be this one due to lack of dealers. My brother phoned Tannoy on my behalf to find a dealer where we could listen. The one we need to go to is on the south cost and it turns out we will not actually be listening to them in the shop at all. Instead we will need to go round to a friend of the dealer’s house and listen to them there!!! This is less then ideal as we won’t be able to experiment with positioning or equipment or match my sources. I’m starting to worry that Tannoy may not be long for this world with dealer support like this.

James

[Aussie Geoff]

James,

One more choice for you - which you can definitely hear in London...

Mordaunt Short Performance 6 - check out the reviews...

This is a statement speaker from them, priced at about 3 times the rest of their range and made with some special technologies. Bottom line, I heard a "pre-release" version late last year in London and loved it. Extremely transparent and detailed sounding. The reviewers love it as well. And priced at about half the cost of the 802D... They aren't in Australia yet - but will be next month. I can't wait to hear them again in comparison to the 802D. My memory (not very fair because of time, different rooms etc) was that the mids and highs were as good but the Performance 6 bass was just a little less deep than the 802Ds - but hey for 1/2 the price :banana:

I may even buy a pair myself - I had saved enough for the 803Ds but have found the midrange too boxy for my ears and love the 802Ds However I confess to being a little annoyed at B&W for making people spend so much just to get good midrange and so my mind is wondering to other options...

Geoff

[xk8boy]

I had been aiming at upgrading to 803D’s about now. However I have read enough comments on this board and elsewhere that have persuaded me that I need to check out the 802D’s before I take the plunge. So as not to break my golden rule I’m going to delay things a little until I have the extra funds available (end September). In the mean time I want to get together a list of credible alternatives to the 802D. I’m sure the 802D’s will be what I will go for but there is no way I can drop £8K on speakers until I know they are the ones for me. I need to get the list sorted before hand so I can find dealers that have the other speakers (and preferable the 802 as well). So my question is for 802D owners, potential owners or anyone else who has an opinion: What other speakers should I be listening to? I will also be buying a new power amp to go with whatever speakers so if you know good combinations with any of your recommendations that would be very useful too.

Any speaker must fill the following criteria:

• I have a wide range of musical tastes so I don’t want anything that is just very good at one type of music.
• I need something that will fill a large space (6.5m x 5.5m x 5m).
• I am only interested in a 2Ch music setup for now but of course something that comes from a brand with partnering HT speakers could be of use in the future.

Many thanks in advance,

James.

Hi James, dont take this the wrong way, but I am sure all the speakers thats been mention will quite happy meet all your requirements. IMHO asking for recommendations of speakers other than B&Ws in a B&W speaker forum is a little "touchy". I'm sure everyone will be unbias, but you are talking to B&W speaker lovers and at worst the 800 series lovers.

What I fail to understand is what you're looking for in speakers. Because speakers at 8K range are going to be good! Its going to be down to taste, JMLab to me sounded very musical and smooth and this is going to suit classical music more so that say jazz. For jazzy music, i like it to be harsh and rough. The 802D are a good compromise and suit well to a wide range of musical genre. Vocal performances with the diamond tweeters are just much better than with the beryllium. They sounded so real and focus. These are all my preferences in music.

Remember, i'm talking about the minutes differences here and there. Anyway, have fun in your shootout and tell us about your final decision.

just me 2cents.

[james_dmi]

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the addition this list is getting quite long! I now may have to take a week off to get round all the shops....

On the 803D I’m surprised you found the midrange so lacking. I had a very long listen to these and while I agree its upper mid (presence zone) is recessed which you can clearly hear when you do side be sides with other speakers I did not find it to be coloured or boxy, although I must admit I’m not sure what sort of sound your referring to with boxy is that the same as shut-in?? If so then yes I would agree with you there. However this is a flaw in the frequency response which while easy to hear in side by side comparisons does not really affect your listing experience in isolation. Your ears and brain will compensate for this when you listen for a while. Now there is a big caveat here: If along side a region of lower output the detail is not there or its covering up some other nasty performance attribute, then when you do listen and adjust you will hear all the other problems, I did not find this to be the case with the 803D. The 803D is not alone in having a flaw in its response like this, most other speakers I heard in the same price range when compared side by side would sound harsh and splashy in comparison. However on longer listening while the initial frequency response was compensated for the others did not resolve into the fine all-round performer the 803D did. Now I have not heard the 802D's which may well change my mind on what is and is not good midrange but then if it is that much better is will also raise the bar for everything else to beat. All in all I would describe the flaw of the 803D as a slightly shut in mid which is noticeable on voices (although the smoothness of the treble and the control of sibilance was so much better on this speaker then anything else I have ever heard to me this speaker was still excellent for voices) And I found that I could hear around this flaw. I’m sure if I had bought these and never come back to these boards to hear all the 803D vs. 802D stuff then I would have been very happy (As long as the base aligned well with my larger room).

What do you think about a sticky thread for B&W competitors in general? It would be a good resource for anyone considering buying in to the brand but also wants to do compare the B&W to other speakers. Which I think is the only healthy way to buy any hi-fi

James

[james_dmi]

Hi James, dont take this the wrong way, but I am sure all the speakers thats been mention will quite happy meet all your requirements. IMHO asking for recommendations of speakers other than B&Ws in a B&W speaker forum is a little "touchy". I'm sure everyone will be unbias, but you are talking to B&W speaker lovers and at worst the 800 series lovers.

What I fail to understand is what you're looking for in speakers. Because speakers at 8K range are going to be good! Its going to be down to taste, JMLab to me sounded very musical and smooth and this is going to suit classical music more so that say jazz. For jazzy music, i like it to be harsh and rough. The 802D are a good compromise and suit well to a wide range of musical genre. Vocal performances with the diamond tweeters are just much better than with the beryllium. They sounded so real and focus. These are all my preferences in music.

Remember, i'm talking about the minutes differences here and there. Anyway, have fun in your shootout and tell us about your final decision.

just me 2cents.

Hi xk8boy,

Yep I understand that this is a B&W thread, but its one of the only places I know where there are a large collection of people who have actually had demos of speakers in this price range. (I don’t count hi-fi show demos). Although I have been using this as a starting point I have also been asking dealers who have suggested a few other items i.e. the Vivid Audio B1 and PMC speakers.

I by the way am not a B&W lover (sounds a bit dirty) or even owner. I have auditioned my way through many of their speakers as well as some by other manufactures but never buying in because I keep hearing something so much better at a more expensive price point. But this will be it I want to get the best possible list of high-end speakers I can that fit my price and domestic criteria and make a final decision that I will live with for a very long time. I will pick the speaker that sounds best to me with the kind of music I like. If I get shot down by B&W lovers so be it, I’m not afraid, I will come back and report exactly what I thought of all the speakers I listened to. Looking back up the post it seems people on this board are very forthcoming in admitting that B&W are not the only good hi-end manufacture and all in all it's been a very productive exercise which may be useful for others.

Interestingly your comment on the suitability of JMLab speakers is one I have heard before. While I will not let this sway me it will make me check out the JM’s on some more difficult sounding music just to see if I can live with the slightly “Harsh and Rough” characteristic you and others have mentioned. Have you heard any of the other products on the list? And which JMLab speaker was it that you heard, was it the diva? Also what equipment did you hear the 802D and JmLabs running with?

Many thanks

James.

[Aussie Geoff]

James,

I must admit I’m not sure what sort of sound your referring to with boxy is that the same as shut-in?? If so then yes I would agree with you there.

Yes boxy = shut in. I have become very sensitive to it on female vocals in particular....

I hadn't realised you hadn't heard the 802D. You owe it to yourself to do so - go straight to Grahams Hi FI and compare them with the 803D.... I find the 802D a revelation in quality compared to the 803D.... Truely worth hearing...

Enjoy your comparisons..

Let us know how yoou go...

Geoff

[georgev]

Try to audition the Vivids too. You are right, they were designed by Lawrence Dickie(the designer of the snail nautilus). They are amazing.
Cheers.

[sikoniko]

Thats funny about you guys are saying about the 803d's being boxy feeling. I felt the same way. I was wondering if it was source components or lack of break-in... i liked my old N804's better for the value. heheh

[james_dmi]

James,

I hadn't realised you hadn't heard the 802D. You owe it to yourself to do so - go straight to Grahams Hi FI and compare them with the 803D.... I find the 802D a revelation in quality compared to the 803D.... Truely worth hearing...
Geoff

Don’t worry I will, but I’m going to wait till I can line up demos for all these speakers in the same week that way wont have to really on my sieve of a brain to remember how the others sounded (not that this is a reliable method at the best of times but the only option as nowhere has more then one or two of these products.) This won’t be till I finish my current contracts and have been on holiday (October time). The reason I didn’t listen to the 802D's before was they were more expensive than my budget. the only reason I am going to do so now is because of comments like the one you have just made ( :evil: curse :twisted: you all! You’re going to make me bankrupt!)

BTW some reviews should be coming out soon:
800D’s reviewed by Paul Messenger in next month’s Hi-Fi Choice special addition (also comes with 800 series DVD in case you don't have one yet)
802D’s reviewed in both Hi-Fi news (the speakers are gong out from B&W about now) and another Hi-Fi mag possibly Hi-Fi plus (This one is being reviewed by a freelancer so cant be sure which mag) in the next few months.

Expect American reviews in mags like Stereophile about January time, apparently they are waiting until the products have been out for a year first.

Info form phone conversation with 800 series UK marketing manager at B&W. She never said it was secret so here it is.


James.

[xk8boy]

you all! You’re going to make me bankrupt!)

thats the price of membership, haha.

[Phil Rose]

Originally posted by: Fraise
The maggies are full range electrostats.

A minor point of clarification. Maggies are not electrostats. Maggie is an abreviation of Magneplanar which is derived from the technology used in the speaker namely a planar magnetic sheet. There are no high-voltage polarizing grids as in true electrostatic speakers.

[Fraise]

A minor point of clarification. Maggies are not electrostats. Maggie is an abreviation of Magneplanar which is derived from the technology used in the speaker namely a planar magnetic sheet. There are no high-voltage polarizing grids as in true electrostatic speakers.

My mistake. i'm more familiar with the martin logans than maggies as i dont really have a local dealer i like going to.

to those who mentioned the boxy sound of the 803's, i think you owe it to yourself to try the maggies and martin logans.

[james_dmi]

Hi xk8boy,

Sorry to repeat a question but I thought you may have missed it tucked down the end of my long earlier post.

When you listened to the JMLabs you referred to which model was it? And what amps were driving them? Also you compared the sound to 802D's was this a side by side comparison or from memory? And again what amps were driving those.

James.

[xk8boy]

hi james, the jmlabs speakers where the divas. I had a chance to listen to them while while holidaying abroad. They were hooked up to a pair of krells. the 802Ds where audition back home.

[aphexist]

Some others to consider in price range:

Vandersteen Model 5 (or 5A)
Dynaudio Confidence Line
Thiel 6 or 7
Revel Ultima Line
Von Schweikert
Aerial Acoutics

I would second the JM Lab Electra line, the Magnepans, and the Wilson Sophia (where did you get the price quote?).

[james_dmi]

Some others to consider in price range:

I would second the JM Lab Electra line, the Magnepans, and the Wilson Sophia (where did you get the price quote?).

Just a quick search on the internet. Most places are shy about the price on these so I only found one in an old review (can’t remember where). Why is it wrong? If they come in at £8,000 or below then I will certainly give them a listen.

James.

[aphexist]

Just a quick search on the internet. Most places are shy about the price on these so I only found one in an old review (can’t remember where). Why is it wrong? If they come in at £8,000 or below then I will certainly give them a listen.

James.

I think that price is incorrect. I would expect it the Sophia to sell for about £7,000 in the U.K. I know that Wilson has international dealers.

Try:
Absolute Sounds (England Distro)

https://www.absolutesounds.com