Are B&W speakers bright?

[Pio]

My 802N's are on the bright side, thats why I'm so inclined to get the new D's. I also have 805's and DM602's and they're nowhere near as bright, but both of these are newer models.

You can tame them down with room treatment.

[bigburner]

As I started this thread back in July, I think that some background information regarding my first post might be useful...

I bought a pair of CDM-9NT speakers a couple of years ago without auditioning them first. Why? Because I assumed that they would sound similar to the DM610i speakers that I had owned and loved for the previous 10 years. After all they did come from the same manufacturer. The DM610i has a warm sound and I was looking for a speaker that sounded similar but would deliver greater detail and volume without fear of distortion.

Both pairs of speakers are in the same room (in a 2-channel music set-up, with each pair driven by its own amp) so I am able to compare them easily using the same source. The CDM-9NT is bright in comparison to the DM610i. I’ve swapped amps and the result is the same.

My listening room is riddled with faults if other posters to this thread are to be believed. It has a wooden floor with an exposed area for dancing, wood panelled walls, and light curtains (see photos below). The DM610i’s always sound warm and the CDM-9NT’s always sound bright. So it appears that the rules on room acoustics only apply to some speakers.

There are some exceptions to the bright sound – for example, vinyl sounds warm through the CDM-9NT’s. I’ve also wondered whether a better CD player would make a big difference. I have an old Rotel RCD-855 which I discussed in this thread http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=16364. The advice I received was that it’s still a good performer, and as I mentioned earlier it sounds fine through the DM610i’s.

So are my bright CDM-9NT’s a problem? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. When I’m in the right mood I really appreciate the intensity that they provide, and when my room is full of people dancing they’re just what I need. At other times I experience listening “fatigue”.

So would I buy a pair of CDM-9NT’s again? Probably not, because I want an all-round performer, not one that is suitable some times and not others.

So next time would I audition new speakers in my listening room before buying them? Definitely!

[Karma]

Dancing Or Listening

HI Big,
You certainly have a beautiful room. Those floors are spectacular. I wouldn't want to cover them either just from an esthetics point of view. However, bare floors and walls will hardly ever yield a satisfactory sonic environment. I'm tempted to say "never yield" but there are exceptions to everything. Just looking at your pictures my instant reaction is that the room is very bright. Try the hand clap test and I'm sure you will hear serious, multiple slap echos. Not good. The real pity is that I think this could be a very good listening room.

A tonal balance towards brightness is not the only issue. Imaging and soundstaging will also suffer as well as maximum listening volumes before your ears start to bleed. These interacting issues is the reason I concentrate on room tonal balance before dealing with other things like bass which have separate set of solutions (more difficult).

So we must prioritize. If dancing is your highest priority then you can leave the bare floors and try to compensate in other ways. One way is to do what you did and buy mellow speakers. You can treat the walls discretely and explore treatment for the ceiling. With bare floors the ceiling will be very important since it is parallel with the floor and sound will bounce back and forth between the two. Pay special attention to the first reflection paths. Just dealing with these can help a lot.

Good listening rooms usually have a techy (not always ugly) look to them because of all the treatment gadgets used. Wives usually hate that look. One must be creative with the treatment methods.

Here is a fact: Home listening rooms which are not dedicated to that purpose are always a compromise. That's OK if you can live with the resultant sound. Most of us are compromising our audio needs with other important needs. Just do the best you can.

Sparky

[EvanFew]

This is my first experience owning B&W's, so I can't compare them to what came before in their previous products. I am using the diamond series, and I absolutely positively can't believe the clarity they reveal without any hint of edge whatsoever. I am simply amazed.

When I first installed them in my room a few months ago, there was definitely a harsh element that quickly lead to fatigue. I put up some curtains on the sidewalls, and installed acoustic panels both directly behind the speakers, and on the facing rear wall. The difference was night and day. The harshness was completely eliminated, and I now spend way too much of my time listening for endless hours.

These speakers are of such a high-quality that you simply must utilize them in a room that has some degree of acoustic treatments to be able to fully enjoy them. My previous speakers (NHT evolution series) are known to be on the bright side. However, the extreme resolution that the 800 series are able to reveal apparently flooded my untreated room, and actually lead to quicker listening fatigue. With the room now treated there is simply no comparison between my previous speakers (which were really quite wonderful), to the new one's.The high frequency of the NHT's now sounds like an inexpensive speaker (but only when compared directly against the 800 series). I have become less focused on my source equipment, and intend to spend more time and money improving the acoustics of the room they now live in. I have never owned a piece of A/V equipment that has provided me with such pleasure. They are everything they claim to be. I am now a fundamentalist convert to B&W products.

Evan

[bigburner]

You certainly have a beautiful room. Those floors are spectacular.

Thanks Sparky. I'm told that the floors are made from North American Oregon, which is strange when I live in a country that exports timber all over the world. I think that New Zealanders didn't have a lot of self belief when the house was build back in 1926.

Because it is a nice room I just couldn't get away with most of the treatments that are recommended. However a big rug over the dance floor area would probably help and it would be easy to roll up and remove when my friends and I feel the need to trip the light fantastic.

[bigburner]

This is what grit said about Aerial speakers in the thread “B&W vs Aerial Acoustics?”

It was remarkably clear. When the volume was turned up higher and higher, the loudness increased, but it never felt unpleasant, uncomfortable or too loud.

That’s what I’d like to be able to say about my CDM-9NT’s.

Does grit’s description fit the B&W speakers that you own?

[amdan]

If there is any thread that I am qualified to answer with authority it is this one. I went to B&W gear from mass market stuff, and initially HATED it! I complained for moths to my dealer about how it souned harsh, bright, and every other work you can think of. My dealer came over to the house and listened, and before I even turned the system on he commented that the problem was the room. I was initially skeptical, and it made me sick to my stomach to know how much I had spent, and to feel like it sounded better before I upgraded. I eventually purchashed a whole room acoustic treatment from RPG, and the differnce was unbelieveable. My suggestion to everyone in this forum is to treat the room.... And to answer the original question, in a correctly treated room, there is nothing EXCESSIVLY bright about the b&w's... They are accurate, so they are bright if the recording is bright, and warm if the recording is warm...

JetFlyGuy - I seem to have a brightness problem as well. Could you let me know details regarding your room before and after treatment. Were all your surfaces reflective before and if so did you treat every surface? Did you use absorption or diffusion?
Thanks.

[pdmonty]

Bright = Accurate

Define your definition of Bright anyone?

Hi all! I too am perplexed by the constant rant (of some) complaining about B&W speakers being too harsh or bright. A couple of points if I may?

1st - As some in here have correctly inferred, any system is only as good as it's weakest link. Example: I personally own a pair of 703's and think they are amazing, with my source equipment and room setup. But this was not an instantaneous or automatic eventuality. It took time and tinkering, cable changes, component changes etc. But it seems that many people will go out "half cocked" without doing their research (i.e. extended listening sessions, considering their personal room acoustics etc.) and buy a 3 or 4k pair of high end speakers that are "renowned" for their ability to reveal the best or the worst in source material and then pair them with ancient or inferior source components/materials and expect good results! If you've auditioned your speakers in the store and fell in love with them as I did, then that same sound is in fact reproducible in your home assuming you have at your disposal identical or similar equipment, room treatments/geometry etc....period. There's no magical slight of hand going on here...no deception on the part of the sales people (although burn in time is a real consideration and needs factored in).

2nd - if you have assembled a system over the course of "years" chances are you have grown accustomed to it's unique sonic signature and that signature has served mould / bias your sound preferences. Everyone is different...what you call a warm sound, I call muddy...what you call a harsh sound I call revealing. Bottom line is, if you are going to go and buy any new component and add it to your existing system, particularly if your system is fairly old, then you'd better be pre-paired to shell out extra $$$ to upgrade your source components and source material as well because technology keeps on rolling and sound evolves because of it. B&W knows this and subsequently are ahead of the curve. IMHO...

If I could afford the 800 series I wouldn't hesitate. That being said I believe the 703's are an amazing speaker and probably one of B&W's best price to performance offerings...EVER.

Thanks

[PewterTA]

I would say that B&Ws speakers are decently neutral. They aren't perfectly neutral, but they are pretty close. They do have a slight bump and dip on and before 10KHz that seems to be in most of the lines of speakers (this graph is from the 800 Diamond). This is what gives B&W their signature sound. The thing I've always noticed is anyone that says they are bright have never heard them properly matched with equipment. When we have get togethers for Pittsburgh Audiophiles and I'm hosting, we listen for close to 10 hours and no one comments on them being fatiguing or bright at all. There's other words like "huge sound stage" and "detailed" and "do everything extremely well," but none come comment on them being bright.

I really think the speakers will react with whatever sources are driving them. So if you want a warmer sound, you go McIntosh. If you're wanting to keep the neutral qualities, you go with Rotel, Classe, Devialet, Parasound. If you want bright, that's where the Krells come into play.

[Kal Rubinson]

I would say that B&Ws speakers are decently neutral. They aren't perfectly neutral, but they are pretty close. They do have a slight bump and dip on and before 10KHz that seems to be in most of the lines of speakers (this graph is from the 800 Diamond). This is what gives B&W their signature sound. The thing I've always noticed is anyone that says they are bright have never heard them properly matched with equipment. When we have get togethers for Pittsburgh Audiophiles and I'm hosting, we listen for close to 10 hours and no one comments on them being fatiguing or bright at all. There's other words like "huge sound stage" and "detailed" and "do everything extremely well," but none come comment on them being bright.

I really think the speakers will react with whatever sources are driving them. So if you want a warmer sound, you go McIntosh. If you're wanting to keep the neutral qualities, you go with Rotel, Classe, Devialet, Parasound. If you want bright, that's where the Krells come into play.

I have that 800D as my center with two others to flank it and I have the Mac MC303 and Parasound C31 amps. I think you nailed it.

[mjb]

I really think the speakers will react with whatever sources are driving them. So if you want a warmer sound, you go McIntosh. If you're wanting to keep the neutral qualities, you go with Rotel, Classe, Devialet, Parasound. If you want bright, that's where the Krells come into play.

Agreed 100%. Speakers are a "voice". Their job is to honestly reproduce what-ever happened before, and IMO, B&W does that extremely well. I would not describe them as "bright", but I have mine paired with Classé.

[bigburner]

As the person who started this thread nearly 10 years ago I have to say that I'm a lot happier with the sound of my system since I upgraded to a pair of 803Ds nearly 5 years ago. My previous CDM9NT speakers (the forerunner to the 703) were less well balanced than the 803Ds. By this I mean that the balance between the high and low frequency output didn't always suit me so I was constantly playing with the settings on my sub and the tone controls on my pre-amp to get the sound I wanted. Now I just switch on my source, select some content and listen. There are exceptions of course, such as old recordings that have no bass at all and require some knob turning on the pre-amp to make them bearable, but this is rare. Swapping out my 200w Rotel amp for an Emotiva 300w amp made virtually no difference to the sound but has given me more headroom for concert DVDs/Blu-rays.

Nigel.

[lastexit]

B&W's very gradual crossover at 4,000 Hz will allow you to hear the Kevlar to tweeter break up. Depending on the music you are playing, that can sound like "detail with an added edge" or "fatiguing treble". Apparently, B&W seems to prefer it as lets listeners know that they are hearing their famous yellow Kevlar drivers. Interestingly, the more expensive B&W 800 series speakers don't suffer from that problem.

[wkhanna]

I happen to be one of the ones Dan is referring to who has spent many, many hours listening to his system. I have been fortunate to have heard many other systems over past few years.
Dan has a system which he evolved with tons of trial, hard work, patience & long-term evaluation. Not just listening to a change for few minutes or hours, but days & weeks.

System synergy is both a blessing & a curse. Some equipment just will not play well with others. Then switch one component & all the pieces of the audio system can come together in a cathartic-like experience.

It can be difficult task at times to get a good match in one’s system.
It can also get V expen$ive trying to make all the parts fit as you swap one after another piece in our quest to uncover the perfect fit that matches our personal audio Nirvana.
Our group in Pittsburgh is an invaluable resource in this aspect as we get to try each other’s equipment in our own systems.

One other thing…..
Dan, do you realize the epic significance of receiving a positive affirmation from Kal?

[Patrick Butler]

Hi lastexit,

It is worth noting that the Kevlar used in our 800 Series is identical to the Kevlar that we use in other products such as the CM8S2s that I am listening to at present. Regarding the breakup of Kevlar, here is a great video with Dr. Peter Fryer discussing the nature of controlled breakup with Kevlar. In short, you never have an opportunity to hear the breakup because it is cancelled out by at that specific frequency by an out of phase mode at the same frequency.

Best wishes,

Patrick Butler
B&W Group North America

B&W's very gradual crossover at 4,000 Hz will allow you to hear the Kevlar to tweeter break up. Depending on the music you are playing, that can sound like "detail with an added edge" or "fatiguing treble". Apparently, B&W seems to prefer it as lets listeners know that they are hearing their famous yellow Kevlar drivers. Interestingly, the more expensive B&W 800 series speakers don't suffer from that problem.

[PewterTA]

One other thing…..
Dan, do you realize the epic significance of receiving a positive affirmation from Kal?

Ha ha, yes, yes I do Bill! Great minds think alike! ha ha.

[Mark_NZ]

Interesting points on this thread re question whether B&W speakers are bright? I believe the answer depends on whether you referring to brightness from a broad frequency imbalance or excessive leading edge (narrow band upper frequency response peak(s)). A broad frequency imbalance is typically due to the speaker's frequency response and interaction with the room acoustics. Excessive leading edge is either due to speaker cone breakup or excessive distortion from poorly designed components, or noise picked up by the system.

I am personally very sensitive to any brightness in audio system and diligently spent 20 years eliminating it from my system. As per Nigel's experience, I finally achieved this with the 803D which has a neutral tonal balance with no edge. And similar to Nigel's experience with CDM 7NT, I found CDM 1NT excessively bright and fatiguing, and sold them for Jamo D830 (Concert 8 ). Now what I found enlightening with the D830 is that it was overall tonally bright (due to broad frequency imbalance), but not too fatiguing, whereas the CDM 1NT was both tonally bright and fatiguing. (Note: both used with the same front-end system). I replaced the D830 with D870 (Concert 11) which was well balanced tonally across the frequency range.
Ultimately replaced it with 804S, and then the 803D which I found was the first speaker that had everything I was looking for: well tonally balanced, decent bass with good midrange detail and superb imaging. Inevitably the upgrade bug bit and the 803D was replaced with 803 Diamond. Again, interesting experience where the 803 Diamond that it not as neutral as the 803D because the treble is elevated by 1 to 2dB. However the 803 Diamond is not fatiguing at all, and the increased clarity is welcome.
What I really like about the 80xD and 80x Diamond series is that the Diamond tweeter provides immense detail without pain because it doesn't have the typical cone breakup close to the audio band.

So are B&W speakers bright?
My experience with 800 series is that in a neutral to well damped room, with decent system components, and protection from noise (shielded interconnects, mains filtering) - they don't sound bright, but have noticeable varying minor degrees of deviation from neutral, generally improving in tonal balance as one moves from the 804 to 800. In a un-damped room or with poor components or noisy environment - all bets are off - and the 800 series will likely sound bright and fatiguing.

[bigburner]

Inevitably the upgrade bug bit and the 803D was replaced with 803 Diamond.

Hi Mark,

Good to make contact with you again.

My 803D speakers were damaged in the 22 February 2011 Christchurch earthquake and my insurance company supplied me with a brand new pair of 803 Diamonds. The Diamonds are still sitting in a cupboard waiting to be deployed. That's an indication of how happy I am with the sound of the 803D.

Some of you will be wondering why I have never even experimented with my Diamonds. My initial reason was that I didn't want them to be damaged in any subsequent aftershocks, and there were literally thousands of aftershocks. The second reason was the sheer effort required to unpack and install them. I decided I would only make the effort if/when a component in the 803D speakers failed, which I was expecting to happen given that both speakers took a heavy fall. However, no matter how hard I try by playing music and watching DVDs/Blu-rays, they just keep working!

Nigel.

[mjb]

Nigel, if earthquakes are a real threat, perhaps you should think about hanging them.

[pdmonty]

with quality matching components, b&w's treble sounds realistic, violins and cymbals ring and tingle like how it should be. it is full of detail and not dull. if it sounds too bright, you can always use different tubes or cables to tone it down and not loose detail. whereas if you begin with speakers with a polite treble (which likely compromise detail and accuracy), it is harder to find bright gear to add excitement without thinning out the midrange. in my opinion
scottie

Well said Scottie. B&W sound is 100% dependent on the entire "path" of your system, that being said and as you've pointed out, EVERY speaker out there is dependent in the same way. You can affect the sound of a softer sounding tweeter with harsher sounding equipment and vice-versa. You could argue that because of this B&W doesn't really have a "signature" sound because the sound can be modified in a hundred different ways. The only way you could argue that they are universally harsh or soft would be if every single person out there who owns B&W speakers had the exact same equipment, exact same rooms (size, treatments etc.) otherwise the B&W "sound" is unique in almost every situation. As I've said before, one mans harsh is another mans clarity, one mans soft is another mans muddy. It's all subjective.

[pdmonty]

Hey audioqueso, I've heard Krell and B&K with my buddies N802's and I agree, by comparison to my system it sounds a little brighter. I have the 703's matched with two 5 channel Marantz MM9000's which I am using to Bi-"amp" my 703's and my HTM2 center (that's approx. 200 watts each to my top and bottom halves of each speaker at 6 ohms All I can say is WOW! With this setup I find the sound to be amazing, neutral, accurate and to coin an overused word...NIRVANA!

[yummyyumi]

Hi,

I'm going to get the PM1 with stands match with Rotel RC1580 and RB 1562.

Any advise on the pre and amp selection?

Anybody owns the PM1?


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[lastexit]

Hi,

I'm going to get the PM1 with stands match with Rotel RC1580 and RB 1562.

Any advise on the pre and amp selection?

Anybody owns the PM1?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Great choice! I imagine it would mate very well with your Rotel electronics and, of course, make sure you pair it with a good quality sub.

[yummyyumi]

Great choice! I imagine it would mate very well with your Rotel electronics and, of course, make sure you pair it with a good quality sub.

I'm using sunfire true subwoofer MK II. It's an old sub...

Any choice of RCA and speakers cable to recommend?


Yummy


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[lastexit]

I'm using sunfire true subwoofer MK II. It's an old sub...

Any choice of RCA and speakers cable to recommend?


Yummy


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Anything of good quality should do but I'd probably recommend Audioquest. They're frequently paired with B&W speakers at various dealers and shows; great synergy has been reported between the two combos.

[pdmonty]

Hey Jet...I agree with everything you said. On another note, where did you get the 3D models in your signature picture. I actually created a similar model myself (see my profile pic). Did you do it yourself. I couldn't find any B&W models on the internet so made them myself. Thanks!

[crytklmass]

When I owned my B&W 802D I tried using my Rotel amp but they just didn't sound that good. When I purchased the MC205 they sounded much better so I decided to buy a pair of MC501 which really opened them up. Honestly the MC205 worked just as well but if I wanted reference level the MC501's offered extra headroom. The real kick between the legs was a pair of DIY speakers that cost me approx. $1,200 for the pair which sound very close to the 802D which cost me $15k. Now I prefer DIY to any store bought speaker. Granted the B&W's finish is nicer but with the difference in cost I don't care.
I also tried swapping I.C. When I used the Silver cable it made the speakers sound quite a bit brighter than a standard copper I.C. I tried different speaker wire as well but both sounded the same.
I would NOT characterize B&W as bright, ever heard Klipsch? lol

[Art Vanderlay]

I would say that B&Ws speakers are decently neutral. They aren't perfectly neutral, but they are pretty close. They do have a slight bump and dip on and before 10KHz that seems to be in most of the lines of speakers (this graph is from the 800 Diamond). This is what gives B&W their signature sound.

A few notes on the measured response:

The Stereophile measurement is taken at the tweeter height and averaged over a 30 degree window.

The designed listening height is closer to the mid point between the tweeter and mid, and when measured at that height the response is flatter, and flatter still when measured at +/- 15 degrees in the horizontal plane, which appears to be the intended listening axis.

So, when seated correctly and with the speakers toe'd out at 15 degrees, the response is essentially dead flat, apart from a slight depression around 2kHz and a slight bump at 600Hz. If the listening height is too low the 2kHz depression becomes more severe resulting in a recessed mid band and insufficient presence on vocals.

[Art Vanderlay]

On reference axis.

[dan87951]

1. generally all B&Ws are bright (regardless of Amps, but some make it worse for sure)
2. the 802D seemed less bright than the 803D to my ears..
3. bright: 703, 803, 803D
less birght: 704, 804, 805,
in betweenie 802D

bright/leanness is the signature sound of B&W.. IMHO. It's not necessarily a bad thing.. if you like it, it's all good, if not then oh well...gotta get something else

bright: 703, 803, 803D
less birght: 704, 804, 805, ?????

I couldn't disagree more with the above statement! The 804's, especially the N804's are so bright they will make your ears bleed. Both the N803's and 803D's I owned were very well balanced speakers and I wouldn't call them "bright" at all. To the OP, definitely get to your local dealer and demo speakers, everyone's taste for what they hear and like is so different, as proof by this post.

[toader]

Brightness is relative. I think B&W speakers ARE bright, and they DO lack low bass - IN COMPARISON TO MANY MODERN STUDIO MONITORS OR CHEAP CONSUMER SPEAKERS. I have a pair of B&W 800d speakers which are bi-amped. Each speaker is running two Classe CAM-600 monoblocks. The room has been extensively treated, and was even tuned by a professional acoustician. YES, these speakers are bright, and sub-bass is not super powerful. HOWEVER... The quality of the speakers is VERY good. They are incredibly accurate sounding - and VERY VERY tight. Transient sounds and quick bursts are never lost in muddiness or lack of detail. These are super super high quality speakers, that sometimes for me have a less-than-ideal frequency response.

On certain types of recordings, this bright sound with little sub-bass is really nice (especially on naturally darker recordings - a lot of classical and/or jazz).

On other types of recordings (rock/pop/r&b, etc), this bright sound with little sub-bass can be obnoxious - sounding harsh, and weak in the low end - especially at loud volumes.

There are ways to address the issue... For example, if your speakers are in the middle of a room, and you want more bass, just push them up against a wall. If you STILL want more bass, push them into the corners of the room. This will DRASTICALLY increase the overall bass energy you hear. Also, in an anechoic environment, the speakers may tend to sound brighter - so treating all of the near reflection points can actually make the speakers even more harsh sounding... but then at least you're not hearing a lot of comb filtering which would result in a less accurate representation of the original audio signal... My speakers sound best to me (at least in this semi-anechoic listening environment) with some EQ - rolling off the high frequencies gradually above 1k, and then a huge low frequency boost. The problem with this, is the EQ has side-effects of it's own... and doesn't sound super natural... it sounds "processed". I have a huge amount of money invested in this system, and I wish I was more satisfied with the overall frequency response of these speakers... I've debated selling them, but I'm not sure I want to deal with the issue right now. I have compared them extensively with other speakers I have though, and these are my opinions based on that.

Unfortunately, most "mixes" are done on small studio speakers... so playing back on a system without a similar curve will result in a sound that is less-than-ideal. In a perfect world, all mixing engineers would use the exact same speaker... and high end speakers could just be a "better" version of that... but the world doesn't work that way. If something was mixed on Yamaha NS-10 speakers with a subwoofer, probably the best listening experience will also be had on a pair of Yamaha NS-10 speakers with a subwoofer. Flame away if you think I'm wrong... I'm always willing to learn, but this has been my experience so far in the last few decades I've been involved in music production.

[tyreman]

I've used B&W for years
I think to a great extent the room is a huge factor in the whole equation that being said

EDIT: I have noticed a brightness in the Nautilus ones I have heard and had

their DM3000's and like was pretty good

[WI Rotel]

A recurring theme in this forum is the bright nature of B&W speakers (some members use the word “harsh” but “bright” sounds better if you’ve spent a lot of money on B&W gear). I’ve assumed that people who like B&W like brightness. I do. I hear other people’s speakers and they sound like their tweeters have blown.

My questions are these:

1. Are B&W speakers generally on the bright side?

2. Does the brightness reduce as you spend more money on B&W speakers? (I’ve even heard members refer to 802’s as bright/harsh on this forum).

3. Are some models bright and others not?

In fact they are not bright at all. Transparent yes, accurate yes, flat frequency response, absolutely. Bright, warm are descriptors of inaccuracy. Bright suggests cranked high fequencies, warm, low frequency. The diamond tweeter doesn't discriminate, awful recordings sound awful and good recordings sound excellent. You simply get unvarnished truth. As you go up in price among the series what you get is a thinner and thinner veil between what is fed in and what is actually reproduced. This honesty is not necessarily everyone's cup of tea but its what the big bucks are for!

[toader]

I have had a breakthrough in my use of B&W 800d speakers biamping with CAM 600 amplifiers... Here's the truth as best I've been able to understand it (I AM USING THESE FOR AUDIO MASTERING WORK):

As long as the volume is kept very low on these speakers, they are about the most accurate amazing sounding things on the planet... and they indeed are NOT too bright. The frequency response is in fact about as close to perfection as I can even imagine. The transient response is incredible... I can detect distortion on them FAR easier than on other systems, AND I can VERY EASILY hear dynamic changes/compression on them (so I can adjust it accordingly) - whereas on other speaker systems I've used, dynamic changes are less apparent. On really bad speakers, it's almost impossible to even tell the difference between two compressors. On B&W? Super easy.

BUT... this is a bit of story so bear with me...

I have also discovered that on other speaker systems, when I turn up the volume, the speakers themselves seem to "self compress", and transient bursts and quick sharp material is slightly softened - and at loud volumes it is MASSIVELY softened. This is a pleasing affect, and allows me to CRANK them... and to just rock out without pain in my ears. But they're not accurate - you can't judge proper transient dynamic control because it's obscured by this self-compression. If I turn them down super low though, the transients do become more apparent, and they're a little more accurate... Still, just not nearly as accurate as the B&Ws.

With B&W speakers, when I crank them, transient material is NOT softened in the slightest bit. The speakers do NOT seem to "self compress" AT ALL. Transient bursts and quick sharp material can be INTENSE The net effect, is these speakers at loud volumes will tear my freaking eardrums to pieces, and midrange/highs SEEM apparently too bright. I now believe this to be due to the incredible accuracy of these speakers (no self-compression). This makes them EXCELLENT mastering speakers... BUT as home listening speakers, they're probably going to be more enjoyable at lower volumes, or when you're not directly in the line of site of the midrange & tweeters... UNLESS:

If music is originally mixed/mastered specifically on B&W speakers - AND AT LOUD VOLUME... This will cause the mixing/mastering engineers to soften things, and then when listening later to B&W speakers, it will sound UNBELIEVABLY AWESOME - EVEN LOUD... BUT, on smaller lower quality speakers, these types of mixes/masters will sound slightly dull/dead. I believe for ideal translation in mastering, the volume on the B&W system should be kept very low, and the speakers will lead you perfectly where you need to go, and masters will translate amazingly well to 90% of the speaker systems in the world. Super accurate speakers like this have a place, but they can be dangerous... just like the sharpest knives and the best tools... It has taken me several years to come to these conclusions - lots of experimentation, and an incredible amount of failure and effort. I have finally arrived at a place where I can say I'm happy with my setup. I know what it can do now. I know how to use it... And I can do far better work with this system than I could ever do without it. Thank you B&W for the excellent products... keep up the great work.

-Todd

[70sMac]

I'm going to focus on the original question here: Are B&W Speakers Bright?

My interpretation of the audio term "bright," in terms of speakers, is one that's seemingly focused on high frequency sound. We just had a pair B&W 800D3s demonstrated for us yesterday, and quite frankly they were bright, but, at the same time, they were very capable of handling the lower audio frequencies, as well. Bearing in mind that each of the 800D3s we were listening to was being driven by a separate Mac MC1.2KW monoblock, we left the room slack-jawed...but, after letting some time pass, we realized that what we heard was, in a word, "different" than what we're used to hearing.

We've enjoyed our (older) 802Ns and 805Ns for many years. They're being driven by Mac amplifiers, too, but their sound is definitely different than what the 80XD3s will give you. In short, the B&W 800D3s we heard would be great for someone who needs the details. In fact, they seem just about perfect for someone who gets involved with audio mixing, but I'm not so sure about the rest of us. Anyway, that's a fresh take on the 80XD3s we heard yesterday.