The "Tombstones" Build Thread

[Jed]

I thought I would announce my latest non-vaporware project. My friend thought the baffles look like tombstones, hence the name. This is a dipole midrange design with a monopole woofer section to load close to the floor to come closer to power matching the radiation patterns of a dipole to monopole transition. I chose this layout because it sounded great when I heard a similar design at RMAF last year, and because I simply want to try it. No need for fancy EQ, and there's no need to let me know the limitations of not using dipole bass. I fully understand that.

The woofer is the Seas W26.


The midranges are the Seas W15CYs.


The tweeter is the hybrid H1212 waveguide loaded DXT tweeter I tested awhile back.

I took the 2 best profiles from above and merged them, so I can easily compare the differences. Below you can see the stock 27tbfc-g tweeter and the DXT dome unit on a 27tbfc-g motor. I labeled each set of harmonic distortion for the DXT dome unit on a 27tbfc-g motor as "DXT". The DXT hybrid outperforms the stock 27tbfc-g tweeter in all non-linear distortion tests except D2. With the benefits of a waveguide it will be even better.




This speaker is intended to be my reference design. I don't think the drivers get much better in terms of overall quality, etc.

Here's what I was able to put together this weekend. They will be finished in a beautiful Curly Cherry veneer.

More to come:

[Hdale85]

Where's the rest

[Jed]

Where's the rest

Got the pair of cabinets built. I'll post more pics tomorrow. It's been a speaker marathon weekend.

Jed

[Hdale85]

Sounds good. I won't be here much probably until later that night. We'll see I suppose. Have to go to the doctors in the morning because of issues with the baby. But eagerly awaiting an update they look interesting.

[ttan98]

Is the bass cabinet ported or sealed?
what would expect the low freq would be?
what is the x-over freq?

thanks.

[Coconutout]

i'm sorry for being blunt but do you think these are comparative priceerformance-wise to The Statements? I was planning on rebuilding mine but these speakers look extremely appealing... like a poor man's Orion.

are these drivers readily available? i can't even find a single picture on w15.

[itssmoke]

looks like you could take that cabinet design ,, utilize some old saba drivers.. your choice of sub ,, and be in set heaven. just a thought.

[JasonB]

Jed,

I'm looking foreward to seeing the results of this one. I currently have a pair of Undefinition's (Paul C's) Aethers and like tham a lot. I often wonder what a similar design with premium drivers might sound like. Your excellent driver choices should answer that question.

Jason

[dlneubec]

Hi Jed,

Very nice sounding project!

I'm thinking of doing something similar after hearing the latest Jim Salk design at inDIYana on Saturday. he collaborated with Jeff Bagby and Jeff had not heard them. We had a fairly extended listening session so Jeff could determine if he needed to change anyting in terms of voicing. He decided not to change anything. This design was similar to your in that it had a ported bass cab with an open balfle mid (single) and tweeter (and looked a little like a tombstone as well). These were using what most would consider PRO drivers for the Bass (Lambda TD12H), PHL 6.5" mid, but with a hih end Morel HiFi tweeter. The overall sensitivity was a whopping 93db! Let me tell you, those were by FAR, the best DIY based speaker I've heard and probably the best speaker period. Dynamics like you would not believe and clean, clear, wide and deep soundstage, etc.! I can't say enough positive things about them and have nothing negative to say. They were simply stunning to listen to. Jeff played a Doc Severinson piece with some wonderful trumpet work and Doc was in the room with us. They will play incredibly loud, effortlessly. I could see these being excellent mains for either music or HT, though you would want to add some subs for supporting below 40hz.

Anyway, I'm seriously considering taking this approach of melding of Pro and Hi-Fi drivers approach and doing something simiular, either with an open baffle mid or perhaps a damped open back mid (ala Statements). I'll probably shoot a little lower in sensitivity to keep the cost a little more reasonable and while reducing the overall speaker mass (I'd guess these were about 14"wide x 42" tall or so), but hope to get around 91db or so.

BTW, your D44's sounded great!

[ThomasW]

are these drivers readily available? i can't even find a single picture on w15.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=173&products_id=781

[Hdale85]

Those sure are some pricey drivers Jed, what do you estimate the final price to be?

[chasw98]

These were using what most would consider PRO drivers for the Bass (Lambda TD12H), PHL 6.5" mid, but with a hih end Morel HiFi tweeter. The overall sensitivity was a whopping 93db! Let me tell you, those were by FAR, the best DIY based speaker I've heard and probably the best speaker period. Dynamics like you would not believe and clean, clear, wide and deep soundstage, etc.!

Dan:
You are one of the first people I have run into (figuratively) that has heard the Lambda series of drivers. I have been very interested in them. These are the same ones available form John J at AE, right? I would really like to hear more about them and if you buy some see some measurements and some reactions. Thanks, this is promising.

Chuck

[augerpro]

I'm curious about those Lambdas too. I have an OB idea I want to try with the B&C DE250 in *hopefully* a Geddes waveguide, B&C 8NDL51 mid, and either the AE IB15 (have one for testing) or TD15, or B&C 15NW76. The IB15 has all the right numbers and the price is right, but I wanted a full Pro driver setup just to see if there is truth to the hype, so still undecided there. I wonder if <200Hz the supposed pro driver benefits are still seen?

[Jed]

Those sure are some pricey drivers Jed, what do you estimate the final price to be?

1 Milllllllllllllllllllliooon dollars! Actually no, much cheaper, more like $2K for everything including cabinets. Already have the drivers and I got them from someone on diymobileaudio.com for a good price.

i'm sorry for being blunt but do you think these are comparative priceerformance-wise to The Statements? I was planning on rebuilding mine but these speakers look extremely appealing... like a poor man's Orion.

are these drivers readily available? i can't even find a single picture on w15.

The Seas Excel W15CY and Seas Excel W26 are both Seas' high end magnesium coned drivers and are readily available. The tweeter is a concoction of the Standard Seas H1212 ferro loaded motor with the Seas DXT waveguide dome assembly that I tested in another thread.

I have no idea how it will compare to the Statements, but it will be a lot more expensive.

Is the bass cabinet ported or sealed?
what would expect the low freq would be?
what is the x-over freq?

thanks.

The bass section is sealed. F3 will be around 40HZ.
Crossover Fc targets will be around 200-250HZ and 1.7Kish with 4th order acoustic slopes.

Hi Jed,

Very nice sounding project!

BTW, your D44's sounded great!

Thanks Dan! I miss those little D44s.

[dlneubec]

Dan:
You are one of the first people I have run into (figuratively) that has heard the Lambda series of drivers. I have been very interested in them. These are the same ones available form John J at AE, right? I would really like to hear more about them and if you buy some see some measurements and some reactions. Thanks, this is promising.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Those are the ones. I'm trying to contact John J via email. I understand he is rather hard to reach and I might have better luck with calling. If I don't hear back in a day or two, I'll give him a call. They sounded very clean in that system. I can't stress how great I thought those speakers sounded and that was in a motel conference room, probably 40' wide x 80' long or so. Post a note about them over at the PE board and I bet Jeff Bagby will answer. I know he was very happy with the way they sounded. The PHL mid was VERY nice as well. I'm likely to buy some of the Lambda's. I have to decide if it will be the TD12H or the TD10H, but probably the 10, since it can use a smaller box and I want to keep the resulting speaker mass down. I'll start a thread on the Lambda's if I get some and will certainly do some measurements. I could probably get some data like that from Jeff. I'll drop him a line if you are interested in the TD12H.

[chasw98]

Hi Chuck,

Those are the ones. I'm trying to contact John J via email. I understand he is rather hard to reach and I might have better luck with calling. If I don't hear back in a day or two, I'll give him a call. They sounded very clean in that system. I can't stress how great I thought those speakers sounded and that was in a motel conference room, probably 40' wide x 80' long or so. Post a note about them over at the PE board and I bet Jeff Bagby will answer. I know he was very happy with the way they sounded. The PHL mid was VERY nice as well. I'm likely to buy some of the Lambda's. I have to decide if it will be the TD12H or the TD10H, but probably the 10, since it can use a smaller box and I want to keep the resulting speaker mass down. I'll start a thread on the Lambda's if I get some and will certainly do some measurements. I could probably get some data like that from Jeff. I'll drop him a line if you are interested in the TD12H.

I have already spoken with John by PM on the AE forum. That was on the day he put up the T/S parameters. He said he has been too busy getting things going to really do some measurement of these new drivers. Although he has the parts to put them together and sell them if you are willing to take the chance.

Actually I had my eye on 4 (2 per side) of the 10 inch Lambda's as good candidates for a 3 way with some scanspeak components. I have heard from other people that the PHL units are real good also.

I would be very curious to see FR graphs along with distortion graphs a la krutke if you know what I mean. Keep me posted on what you do with the ambda's. Thanks.

Chuck

[Coconutout]

wow 2k is way over my ideal budget (1.2k over to be precise)
but i'm still interested after reading mr.dine's comment. please tell me, what would be the tweeter height be and if it can be adjusted to 34".

[Jed]

Yeah, the Seas drivers are really expensive now. Just the woofers are like $340 each.

[Dennis H]

Dan, do you know which PHL mid and Morel tweeter Jeff used?

[Silversmoky]

Looks like a neat project Jed. I like seeing the Seas Magnesium woofers getting used in your design. Those things have jumped up alot in the last six months! I thought I had read somewhere that it is possible that they may go back down a little in price at some point again. I have my doubts though.
Will follow your progress close!

[Dennis H]

Yeah, the price of the Seas drivers is really high in the US because of the weak dollar. A few years back, a dollar would buy almost 1.2 euro. Now a dollar will only buy about .64 euro -- almost a doubling of the price of european products bought in the US.

[Deward Hastings]

You can pretty much expect the prices of Chinese drivers to follow that trajectory over the next couple years . . . maybe not double (though they could) but at least a 50% increase. We'll see it everywhere . . . WallMart, Parts Express, Harbor Freight . . . if you want something imported get it now, it's not going to get any cheaper.

I wouldn't even bet against more appreciation for the Euro . . .

[Undefinition]

Only a few days ago, you put a sketch of this up, and now here it is. That must have been some speaker building marathon! Looks great, Jed! :T

Is this your first dipole design? I'm eager to watch the development of this project.

As I stated on the PE board, I was shocked by the initial similarity between your design and a dipole I'll be working on this summer. However, it looks like there will be enough cosmetic differences to make the two distinguishable :W

Also, it will be really interesting to see how your driver choices turn out. Yours are definitely in a different price bracket than mine.

Best of luck! Should be fun!

(here's is a sketch of my design that is on the "to do" list)

[Jed]

Thanks! I gotta learn how to use that google sketch software. Those look great!

This is indeed my first "dipole" (midrange) project.

Jed

[augerpro]

Jed do you have a pair of the Maxx's still? You'll probably find it interesting to compare these to the Tombstones. Both use low distortion drivers, low enough that I think many other factors (power response, lobing, soundstage) will be become much more dominant and the better sounding speaker may not be obvious until you actually listen to them.

BTW congrats on the whole Lineup line. It really is a superb array of projects. :T

[augerpro]

Hey Jed what made you select the DXT over the SS9800?

[dlneubec]

Dan, do you know which PHL mid and Morel tweeter Jeff used?

Not sure, but it is one of the 6.5" PHL extended range drivers. I believe he said the Morel was the MDT33.

[Jed]

Jed do you have a pair of the Maxx's still? You'll probably find it interesting to compare these to the Tombstones. Both use low distortion drivers, low enough that I think many other factors (power response, lobing, soundstage) will be become much more dominant and the better sounding speaker may not be obvious until you actually listen to them.

BTW congrats on the whole Lineup line. It really is a superb array of projects. :T

First, Thanks! I'm finally getting around to veneering the Maxx and my D4s.

Good points about comparing one speaker to the next. That's what I did with the Lineup Series and I definitely will compare these new speakers to other speakers I've designed that I have in my collection-- D44s-- and others.

I'm using the waveguide tweeter over the Scanspeak 9800 because it measures better and will work well in the dipole application. Hey, maybe I'll plug in the Scanspeak and see what I like better, but the edge goes to the H1212 DXT waveguide hybrid for power response flatness and low distortion down to 1200hz.

[---k---]

Jed,
Looking very good. The driver photos you added made me laugh. The midrange looks bigger than your woofer.

[Hdale85]

Wish I could afford to build these but they are just a TAD bit out of the range I'm looking to spend on my new speakers.

[TacoD]

Nice project Jed, it is a shame to see the last closed box builder switch to open baffle .

[Dennis H]

The Dark Side of the Force grows stronger in young Jed.

[Jed]

Thanks for the compliments all... I'll keep you updated. I plan on updating the first post so people won't have to wade through pages and pages to find the pics.

[Jed]

Dennis, that tweeter looks pretty rolled off on the top end. Did you get it out of an AR3a or something? :B

[Mazeroth]

Yeah, the price of the Seas drivers is really high in the US because of the weak dollar. A few years back, a dollar would buy almost 1.2 euro. Now a dollar will only buy about .64 euro -- almost a doubling of the price of european products bought in the US.

I felt this the last two weeks in Germany (just got home about 2 hours ago). It cost me over $100 US to fill up a tiny car with diesel and a decent lunch was over $25 US. A medium Big Mac meal at McDonalds cost me almost $10 US for crying out loud!

Ahhh, it's good to be home.

[dawaro]

Thanks for the compliments all... I'll keep you updated. I plan on updating the first post so people won't have to wade through pages and pages to find the pics.

Do you have any desires to do a variation on this? I have some drivers I would be willing to supply you with for the testing if you are interested, just shoot me a PM. Other designs I have heard with these drivers sounded great and the total cost of the MTM section drivers is less than $400.

[Jed]

Do you have any desires to do a variation on this? I have some drivers I would be willing to supply you with for the testing if you are interested, just shoot me a PM. Other designs I have heard with these drivers sounded great and the total cost of the MTM section drivers is less than $400.

What drivers are they?

[JoshK]

Off the original topic, but in response to the sub topic.

Jeff Bagby's design looks like it is taking commercial form through Salk Sound....

[Dennis H]

Alrighty then. That looks like the PHL 1120 with its distinctive flat surround. Looking at the thread on AC, we've got:

Lambda TD12H
PHL 1120
Morel MDT33
450 LR2
2.5K LR4

I imagine a talented XO designer could klone the speaker and come pretty close to the sound but kloning Jim Salk's woodwork would be another matter.

[---k---]

but kloning Jim Salk's woodwork would be another matter.

Indeed.

[Paul Ebert]

Where can I find out more about the Lambda drivers?

[exojam]

Here you go for Lambda.

http://www.aespeakers.com/

[Jed]

Geez guys, start a new thread. Half the posts are about Lambda drivers.

[Hdale85]

Jed whats the cost of that tweeter? And do you actually have to make it like that? If so what do you need to get to do it?

[Dennis H]

Aw, Jed, you know trying to keep us HTG ruffians on topic is like trying to herd cats.