Okay here ya go, low buck subs..... ;^)

[ThomasW]

One of our IB sub builders found this company in Canada that has some very attractively priced sub drivers.

The pricing seems almost to good to be true, one fellow is testing a pair of the 18"s for us, and so far so good...

Information about the 12" driver
Information about the 18" driver

We've been in contact with the company owner, Mark Rogowski, this is a legitimate company, and yes they're shipping product at the prices shown in the website.

[cobbpa]

The 12 has slightly higher xmax and significantly lower Fs? 22.9 hz vs. 30.4 hz. Or, for experienced speaker designers, can this be easily worked around?

Regardless, very interesting find. I can definitely see the IB benefits..may have to play with some enclosures, see how they 'look'.

[ThomasW]

The thread isn't intended to hype them for IB use. Mark G of Mach5 was actually a bit taken back when the desion was made for people to try them in an IB.

The higher Fs isn't a problem, woofers easily play below their Fs. The lower Xmax of the 18" isn't a big deal when you factor in it's Sd.

[peterS]

18 mm

waiting for a DIY sticky on the 12"s in a dipole IB for the mean time :T

[ThomasW]

18 mm

Hello?
Nether driver has 18mm of Xmax

[chasw98]

One of our IB sub builders found this company in Canada that has some very attractively priced sub drivers.

The pricing seems almost to good to be true, one fellow is testing a pair of the 18"s for us, and so far so good...

When I clicked on the link, it showed 4 18 inch drivers for $210.49. Did anyone order 4 of these for speculative purposes? Is this being discussed with some seriousness over at the cult site? If they work for an IB, the price is too good to be true. My credit card awaits responses!

[Jack Gilvey]

How do you go wrong at those prices?

Sd for the 12" seems really low, 410cm^2? Looks the same as my Shiva cone to me...

[ThomasW]

Is this being discussed with some seriousness over at the cult site

Yes. A pair are being tested in an IB. Since these were a complete unknown starting with a pair made the most sense. The tester had an IB with 4 modest car audio 15"s. He likes the 2-18"s better.

If you have money to play with fine....but.....

There are some other 18"s being beta tested by Chris D. These are a higher quality driver with a cast frame made by Eminence. Now they won't be as dirt cheap as the Mach5, but also should be considered for those not needing absolute rock bottom pricing

[Mazeroth]

Thomas, how do you feel the 18" would work in a dipole configuration? I know low vent noise is a plus for dipole woofers, but for the price of these, that may be a trade-off that's worth it.

I can see it now. Four of these per cabinet in an H-Frame standing a little over 6 feet tall, in stereo. Over 20 liters of displacement for $420

[ThomasW]

Thomas, how do you feel the 18" would work in a dipole configuration? I know low vent noise is a plus for dipole woofers, but for the price of these, that may be a trade-off that's worth it.

I can see it now. Four of these per cabinet in an H-Frame standing a little over 6 feet tall, in stereo. Over 20 liters of displacement for $420

Beats me, this is uncharted territory. Mach5 had 44 18"s as of last count, more are approx 2 months away. For people that have the money to experiment these should be fun to play with. Those needing guaranteed performance might consider a more proven option.

[Scott Simonian]

18 incher for $50!?!

Hmmmm, something must be really wrong with them.

Lolz! They both model well in Unibox. Great output potential, (especially the eightteen) just not much <25hz ability. For most people this would be quite ideal.

Didn't know what the Le was so I gave them both a flat 2mH.

[chasw98]

18 incher for $50!?!

Hmmmm, something must be really wrong with them.

Lolz! They both model well in Unibox. Great output potential, (especially the eightteen) just not much <25hz ability. For most people this would be quite ideal.

Didn't know what the Le was so I gave them both a flat 2mH.

Wait till you put them in your cart and see what it costs to ship them. Approx $40.00 each shipping. But a guy at Cult who put them in an IB said they were pretty good.

[Scott Simonian]

I have to sign up to see the "grand" total, I think...cause all I got was $51.99.

What kind of performance could we see from these in an IB? I would think that one would need a lot of these along with some hefty EQ.

[SteveCallas]

I dunno, while the price is very nice, the 18" doesn't seem to be that great of a driver. When you start going with larger drivers, the motor becomes very important, and these seem pretty cheap. In addition, if not apparent from just the parameters, modeling shows these are best suited for high output, limited extension use - basically sound reinforcement.

If I owned a movie theater or a club, I'd buy these like they were going out of style, but for home theater use, these just don't cut it. I'd rather take a 12" Assassin.

[Scott Simonian]

Yeah, I couldn't live with these in MY ht. But for friends and for my car (maybe) they aren't too bad. I mean, all I have in my 02 Neon is the stock speakers but I have a nice Alpine deck. If had got one of these eightteens for my car....oh my! Still not the BW Im looking for but not too shaby for $50 ($90 shipped, even).

[ThomasW]

Assassin 12" $90

Znom 4 ohms
BL 12.3 n/a
Re 3.5 ohms
Fs 23.1 Hz
Mms 122 g
Vas 128 L
Xmax 15.5 mm
Qms 4.00
Spl 87.8 dB 1W/1M
Voice Coil diam. 2 inch aluminum
Qes .41
Qts .372
Rms 350W
Le 3 mH
Stamped steel frame


Mach5 12" $42

T/S parameters (with coils wired in series):
Fs = 22.90 Hz
Re = 4.3 Ohms
Qt = 0.38
Qes = 0.43
Qms = 3.34
Mms = 137.13 grams
Rms = 5.904246 kg/s
Cms = 0.000352 m/N
Vas = 83.34 liters
Sd= 410.43 cm2
Voice Coil diam. 2.5 inch
Bl = 13.97 Tm
ETA = 0.22%
Xmax = 13 mm
Diameter = 22.86 cm
Cast alu frame

One has to pay shipping charges for either. Obviously the ones shipped from Canada will be more expensive.

Regarding the 18" I see nothing that tells me it's a PA driver...YMMV

[SteveCallas]

Thomas, I was looking at the 18", not the 12". The 12" looks like a bargain before shipping.

[ThomasW]

I'd rather take a 12" Assassin.

You were talking about the 18" and then posted the above, so I posted a comparison between the 12"s

[maximumshow]

I saw these on the cult forum, and have been waiting for more info. I live in Canada, so these may be a great deal!.

Thomas, would the 18"s be a good candidate for dipole subs, based on the specs given? I know they have a pretty small excursion, but would the surface area make up for this?

I have ZERO experience with dipole subs, and the driver requirements. I cannot install an IB at my current location, and a sealed or ported box for the 18"s look like they would be huge. I'm just weighing my options, as a 4 x 18" dipole sub might be a lot of fun to build.

I just want to upgrade from my one tempest sub so badly!

[ThomasW]

I have ZERO experience with dipole subs, and the driver requirements. I cannot install an IB at my current location, and a sealed or ported box for the 18"s look like they would be huge. I'm just weighing my options, as a 4 x 18" dipole sub might be a lot of fun to build.

If the goal is low bass then a dipole sub will be huge was well since it takes a ton of displacement and EQ.
Since you're reasonably close to the supplier it might be fun to grab a pair of the 18"s to play with. My guess is that you'd need no less than 1/2 dozen or more to have good output when mounted in a dipole. But hey you can't possibly get anything cheaper...

[RonS]

Hmm, I need some new drivers for a dipole woofer system. Currently I'm using 2 12" madisound 1252DVC per side in an H system, but I've had to mount them in a diagonal to fit my cabinet. Wondering if 2 10's from Mach would work just as well or better. I don't have complete specs on the madisound woofer (it's the one that Linkwitz originally used in his Audio Artistry and Phoenix designs), but they have an Fs of 15Hz and an xmax of 6mm. The mach woofers have a much higher Fs but a 10mm xmax, obviously a smaller Sd, but I don't know the Sd of the madisound woofer. Any input Thomas? If I could get better at these prices I'd go for it, especially since I'm in Canada and shipping 4 would only be $40 Canadian.

Ron

By the way, what is the cult forum?

[ThomasW]

Given the minimal difference in cost I wouldn't down size to 10" drivers for dipole use...

Cult Forum

[AJINFLA]

Well, these aren't cheaper, but IMHO, are better for (cheap thrills) dipole use (which is why I bought 4) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT
He lists a couple pairs, sells them, then lists a couple more. There were 2 (pairs) available at the time I posted this http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/spe...es/229964.html,
but its possible that numbnutz who responded might have bought them, who knows? Anyhow, unless the Sd is well under 800cm2, which I doubt, the 18mm xmax means it should sweep as much if not more air that those 18's. Qts is 0.716 without one of the coils open. The aluminum cone is flat to above 400hz before it begins to fall off, so it could be used a bit higher than just subwoofer frequencies without that paper cone edge resonance nastiness creeping in.
The Linkwitz SPL (freespace) calculator and Thorstens Xbaffle can be your friend.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. it's been a while, but 4 with ship was about $280 IIRC.

[RonS]

Given the minimal difference in cost I wouldn't down size to 10" drivers for dipole use...

Cult Forum

It's a matter of fitting them into the cabinet that I've already built. The cabinet is 11" wide inside dimensions and acts as a base to the main MTM panel (see my avatar). To use the 12" madisound drivers I angled the baffle to fit and had to overlap the drivers a bit too. To tell the truth, I'm pretty happy right now with the 1252DVC drivers, I don't push the system much, most of what I listen to is acoustical.

[Mazeroth]

AJ, do you really think those Lightning Audio 15s have 18mm of xmax? I have a hard time believing that, but if they do that's a fantastic deal.

[AJINFLA]

Yes. I contacted the manufacturer before purchase.
Those drivers sell for a lot more (3-4X the price) on other web stores. I just hope they are not stolen :W .

cheers,

AJ

[Mark Seaton]

Regarding the 18" I see nothing that tells me it's a PA driver...YMMV

The main limiting factor I see is the stiff suspension they used. Make that about 3x softer and you'd have something more suited for IB. Even so it's not exactly a deal-breaker when you don't need much power in the first place for an IB. The upper bass sensitivity will certainly grab the attention of those comparing them to other drivers. It will be interesting to see how people like them compared to some of the more usual suspects...

[ThomasW]

The main limiting factor I see is the stiff suspension they used. Make that about 3x softer and you'd have something more suited for IB. Even so it's not exactly a deal-breaker when you don't need much power in the first place for an IB. The upper bass sensitivity will certainly grab the attention of those comparing them to other drivers. It will be interesting to see how people like them compared to some of the more usual suspects...

Right.... :T

For those located in Canada these are so ridiculously inexpensive people can experiment on the cheap. That's not something they've been able to do in the past.

Given shipping fees to the US, these are basically $100/driver 18"s with roughly the same Vd as some of the PE 15"s. People need to keep that in mind.

[mrogowski]

Right.... :T

For those located in Canada these are so ridiculously inexpensive people can experiment on the cheap. That's not something they've been able to do in the past.

Given shipping fees to the US, these are basically $100/driver 18"s with roughly the same Vd as some of the PE 15"s. People need to keep that in mind.

Aha! So it was YOU who posted the link to my site here and bogged it down. I feel like I was Slashdotted! :B

Joking aside, you're right, shipping south of 59 sure takes its toll on the pocketbook. If anyone knows of a cheap and reliable shipping company, I'm all ears!

Best regards,
Mark Rogowski

[ThomasW]

Aha! So it was YOU who posted the link to my site here and bogged it down. I feel like I was Slashdotted! :B

Joking aside, you're right, shipping south of 59 sure takes its toll on the pocketbook. If anyone knows of a cheap and reliable shipping company, I'm all ears!

Best regards,Mark Rogowski

Hey never complain about free advertising.... :B

In the US the post office has 1st Class mail, then they have the real 'snail mail' Parcel Post. (I think they use camels or horses). Does the Canadian Post have anything like this?

[Bent]

then they have the real 'snail mail' Parcel Post...

Does the Canadian Post have anything like this?

Yes, we call it "expedited"
:rofl:

[ThomasW]

Ben,

Joking aside, do you have info about the pricing of the services from Canadian Post?

[Bent]

I honestly have no pricing info on Can Post at all, but aside from the courier companies, they are the only game in town here, and our "XpressPost" seems to have been very reliable for me so far.

[DeanP]

Canada Post info to ship to USA from Canada.http://www.canadapost.ca/personal/ra.../default-e.asp

I find Canada Post very fast when it comes to shipping across Canada. An example would be: a parcel in Duncan,B.C. to here in Cold Lake, Ab; it only took 3 days and I live in a rural town/city. That would be like from Seattle to Great Falls, Montana.

[ThomasW]

Thanks Dean,

I put in 50 lbs to Colo, worked out to just over ~$1/lb for Expedited Parcel Post.

[mrogowski]

Canada Post is currently what I am using. People can get live shipping quotes directly at the site. I find them and UPS to be within a buck or two of each other most times.

On the flipside, shipping to different parts of the US is considerably more expensive than others. But I wasn't as surprised as when I got a shipping quote from DHL - it was nearly 2x as much!

Best regards,
Mark

[Scott Simonian]

Anybody order/receive an order of the 18's yet?

Are they still in stock?

[ThomasW]

1)Yes
2) don't know
3) ask Mark at Mach5, email would be the best way

[Scott Simonian]

Oh...

I anxiously awaiting to hear some quality writeups about one. I'd order one or two or four but I was curious about the consistency of the T/S specs. The shipping isnt that bad.

[kingpin]

This is a quote from a gentleman on the ib forum.



Drum roll please...

Okay, I started off my day going to Wal-Mart...oops, wrong story.

The 18” woofers for 50 bucks each, that’s where we were at...

As you all know, I received the 2 test woofers earlier this week. I have observed, tested, & played throughout this weekend and here is what I have come up with.

First of all, the woofers arrived well packed, but in a box that was just roughly fabricated. The woofers themselves were wrapped in plastic within this box and that’s about it. No frills at all, just a brown box with no markings.

Next, upon inspecting the woofers, they appear to be very sturdy and well built. The surrounds are big and thick and the cones are good and stiff. Again, no frills at all. Just a very plain basket, black and gray with no markings. This thing looks like a man’s woofer. Here’s my best analogy. My current 15” woofers with chrome baskets and dual voice coils are like a Honda civic with a hopped up VTEC, whereas these 18s are more like an old primer gray Dodge Charger with nothing but cubic inches under the hood.

I have to say, the one thing that feels a little cheap on the woofer is the spring clip for the wiring. First of all, it’s probably for a 12 gauge wire or so, which is no problem until you are wiring two together in parallel. It’s a little tough to fit two 12 gauge wires in there. It’s also a little flimsy, so I was very careful when inserting the wires as to not brake it. It really feels like a spring terminal for a 6X9 or something, not really an 18” sub.

Next, I built a pretty cheesy 20” x 20” manifold, but it’s solid. It’s in the same location that my current manifold was in which works real well, right between my mains. I got the subs installed in the manifold and bypassed my BFD so there is no EQ at all. Just a straight signal from my Denon receiver (80hz crossover, everything set to small) to my Nady XA900 to the subs.

Next, I set the level with my SPL meter. I went ahead and set it about 7 DB hot just to make sure they would handle what I was throwing at them.

The next part was easy. I pulled out all of my favorite demo stuff, DVD’s and CD’s, and started listening.

Now for the real drum roll since this is what you guys are really waiting on…

Long story short, I was simply blown away with what I was hearing. I have owned a Paradigm PW-2200, dual SVS cylinders, Sunfire True Sub, & my current 4-15” IB, and these 2 18’s are the best bass I’ve heard yet. I really hate to sound this strong about it since this review will probably be the deciding factor for many purchases, but I can only report what I am hearing and post test plots so that’s what I’m doing.

The concrete cracking in War of the Worlds DTS was scary, seriously. I will say, at extremely high volumes and the SPL about 7 DB’s hot, I did hear a very slight bottom out once, but again, this was at very high SPL levels, way louder than I would ever listen to.

As far as music, everything I threw at them sounded awesome. The AC/DC kick drum has never sounded better!

I could go on and on about all the test scenes and demo music I listened to, but I think you probably get the point and I don’t have much time left at the moment.

I will post more later, and feel fee to ask any questions you may have. Here is a quick test plot I did, one near field and one from my seated position. These actually tested out almost identical to my 4 15’s, so I think any nulls or peaks you see are pretty much room induced. Also, the near field peak at 34 hz changed as I moved the mic closer, so it's apparently induced by the wall next to my manifold.

[ThomasW]

Oh...

I anxiously awaiting to hear some quality writeups about one. I'd order one or two or four but I was curious about the consistency of the T/S specs. The shipping isnt that bad.

The T/S parameters on the Mach5 website are Dumax tested. I think you expecting people to test the part to part consistency of these is unrealistic. We're talking a $50 buck woofer here not a piece of art from TC-Sounds...

[Scott Simonian]

We're talking a $50 buck woofer here not a piece of art from TC-Sounds...

Awww. But I can dream, can't I?

[mrogowski]

Awww. But I can dream, can't I?

Hi Scott,

I chose random units within the batch to get the specs you see. They were all very close to each other - and to the prototype.

Best regards,
Mark

[Scott Simonian]

So there are some left?

Hmmm. I still would like to pick up a pair and so does a friend of mine....

Shipping to California is pretty steep though!

[mrogowski]

Yup, still some available. Shipping is the killer. That will certainly make or break the decision... I wish I could help more on this but my hands are tied.

Best regards,
Mark