Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[dar47]

Funny just posted this in Tec's Ardent & Center build thread. Note the easiest way to get cheap 1/2" ridged isolation is by getting a few open box 2' x4' ceiling tiles from HD, the ones with the thin vinyl layer on 1 side. You just peel the vinyl off and cut and glue. Carpet is easy too 5' x 7' area rug, cut to fit and PL Pre. in place.

Oh ya, start a build thread this one long.

[JonMarsh]

okay, that's not nice on the 01 Wavecors disappearance so fast when we have eager Ardent builders ready to take the plunge. I know the rubber surround was changed for more excursion and they claim better performance but in our case are they? Jon what would be the xover change needed if any and does the performance suffer any?

I've reviewed the driver characteristics as closely as possible without having the new ones yet (obviously something that must be added to the task list), and I don't see any down sides- maybe a teensy bit of difference in the sealed Q, but thats the beauty of a sealed alignment, it's much more insensitive to driver characteristics than ported. What I'm really curious about is to see how the PR type alignment models with the Scanspeak driver, that's also on the list.

Last week was busy, with some personal medical stuff and that a bunch of re-entry activities at work, including some issues and opportunities with that customer in Cupertino. Did a short presentation of some of the events of my trip for our functional team, and the VP of our division, who happened to be attending the team meeting due to some of those other issues, and is a photog buff, wants me to do a lunch and learn open to the whole Milpitas office about the trip... we'll see if that actually happens.

I will be creating a sort of slide show post for the photography section here- it might be interesting for some folks. Will need to add some more text and description, but that's easy...

Glad to be back....

[TEK]

Glad to be back...

Good to have you back as well :-)

I've reviewed the driver characteristics as closely as possible without having the new ones yet (obviously something that must be added to the task list), and I don't see any down sides- maybe a teensy bit of difference in the sealed Q, but thats the beauty of a sealed alignment, it's much more insensitive to driver characteristics than ported

Does this means that you, even if for example sensitivity is changed from 85 to 83, think that the new ones can be a drop in replacement of the old ones without changing the crossover?

[Wayman]

Thanks for the tips Dar.

So just .75 of Dacron in the bass section? Nothing glued on the side/back wall?

Cheers, Wayne

[dar47]

Yes, just fluffed out fill behind the mid chamber and in the base section. All mid chamber walls get lined all sides except the back of the baffle.

[JonMarsh]

The trick is where the sensitivity measurement is made, (frequency range) and how it compares- which is why I have a couple of these on order now. If the overall sensitivity REALLY is 2 dB less, then some level adjustment can be needed in the crossover. Note, I've seen batches of Scanspeak drivers of the same models that vary 1-2 dB from different years, due to variation in the magnet strength (that also impacts electrical Q and damping). Shouldn't happen, but in the real world it does.

[dar47]

Hope you have use for the 02's as you can't all ways keep taking one for the team. :W

Glad your back and sounds like a great trip just looking at the photos, all though i don't get as excited for ice and snow as some probably my life time location.:lol:

[JonMarsh]

Hope you have use for the 02's as you can't all ways keep taking one for the team. :W

Glad your back and sounds like a great trip just looking at the photos, all though i don't get as excited for ice and snow as some probably my life time location.:lol:

Yeah, you've probably seen your fair share! But this is SOUTHERN ICE, not Northern, and I've got other things you won't have up there like PENGUINs! :W

The 02's will be used (possibly) in the LF module experiments, with SS PR. So, it's not really a hit. Frankly, I think I can determine most of what I need to know just with a good T/S analysis, maybe even just on paper...

[Wayman]

Hi,

How deep is the mid chamber?

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

Hi,

How deep is the mid chamber?

Cheers, Wayne

It's shallower in this version than the original. I was going to just say, take a look at the official build/documentation thread being prepared, but the PDF's DAR47 prepared don't make that very obvious. I'm going to be going through the IGES files and may prepare some additional documentation. I've been tied up with getting ready for the Antarctica trip, then doing it, then some medical stuff when I got home, now taxes and finishing long time in progress sub build for GF... oh, and of course, I have a day job, and just yesterday I finished processing all the bridal shower pictures I took for my daughter, finished count after culling of 293 pictures, and got those uploaded for her... sheesh! Anyway, you got the idea. Something else to put on the to-do list!

[Wayman]

Thanks for the reply.

I know your busy so don't worry about it. With it being square to the mid bottom I can do a layout to find the measurement.

Just wanting to double check really.

Thanks, Wayne

[TEK]

Thanks for the reply.

I know your busy so don't worry about it. With it being square to the mid bottom I can do a layout to find the measurement.

Just wanting to double check really.

Thanks, Wayne

Could you maybe post your result in the official reference thread? I'm going to need those measurements very soon as well (as you can see from this... http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post600146)

[Wayman]

Hi Tek,

While I applaud your confidence in my abilities, I should say that my calculations are far from "official".

I would say that they will be workable in the context of my build. I have made many small changes so far. None that that takes away structurally or dimensionally but more in terms of assembly.

I'll post what I get later today.

Cheers, Wayne

[Wayman]

Well here's what I came up with: 5.562" in depth @ a little over 8 liters in volume.

It's far from official & really needs to checked before anyone uses it.

Cheers, Wayne

[benthe8track]

Is this the dimension you're looking for? 6" via the model.

[dar47]

Thanks Ben, 6" it is from the front cabinet face. I'll add it as a note to the mid shelf pdf as a correction. I could have been sneaky and left it out as it is only going to fit right slid back from the front and making contact with the top on at 6" from the front of the cabinet. This after the 10 deg. edge cuts. Hehe.

[Wayman]

Yes, that's the one! Good thing I didn't glue it yet.

Thanks, Wayne

[benthe8track]

Yes, that's the one! Good thing I didn't glue it yet.

Thanks, Wayne

You'll see when you assemble but the height is the critical dimension because of the angles it will only line up in one spot. A half inch wouldn't have hurt you

[Wayman]

Might have hurt my pride!

[shootinnutz]

Jon said that he used cardas se11. Ben and Darrel what did you wire your speakers with and if it's the cardas where did you get it? Thanks, Paul

[dar47]

Nothing that fancy for me I had a 100' of PE 12 gauge inwall speaker wire. Striped the white sheeting off and made twisted pairs with a drill. For speaker wire I used 14 gauge and double twisted and cover with tec flex. These were terminated with spade ends. My hearing isn't good enough to tell the difference.

[TEK]

...
As to the choice, you can always shoot for full gloss and knock it down to satin without much effort...
...

How do you "knock it down"?

[JonMarsh]

Two ways- spray a coat or two of satin on top, or buff out with 320 grit or coarser rubbing compound, then apply wax. You want to do that anyway- the wax. But be sure the finish has really hardened before going to that step. Lacquer can take a while to really harden, depending on humidity, if you're spraying lacquer. Catalytic varnishes and poly harden fairly fast.

[TEK]

So to get the deep clear with a satin top I could just use clear coat (with shine) and sand it with 320 grid at the end instead of going 1200/2000 and that way get a satin look.
If you add a top layer of satin clear coat, what would that be sanded with?

Does one method give a better result than the other? Using the "rub down" method seems to be less work and require fever type of laquer, so the only reason to add layers of satin clear coat at the top would be that it gives a better result in some way, would it not?

[knowledgebass]

Does one method give a better result than the other?

I think the main advantage of starting with gloss is that you can go high gloss to matte and anything in between with one product and the right abrasives. If you start with a satin product you can't go full glossy.

[benthe8track]

I think the main advantage of starting with gloss is that you can go high gloss to matte and anything in between with one product and the right abrasives. If you start with a satin product you can't go full glossy.

Its also supposed to promote depth in the finish. You lose that with satin all the way.

[JonMarsh]

Plus 1 to both comments! Build up the finish with gloss, then finish it the way you want at the end. Works best that way, IME, whether it's lacquer or wipe on poly or whatever...

[TEK]

Oh, sorry I was unclear.

I'm wondering what the advanteges is with adding coats of satin over the gloss, in oposite to just sand the high gloss to get satin.

If I can select between these two methodes:
1) high gloss + satin
- apply several layers of high gloss
- sand to high gloss (2000 grid)
- apply several layers of satin
- sand to satin gloss (dont know if that will require sanding to 400 grid or 2000 grid?)
- add wax

Or 2)
- apply several layers of high gloss
- sand to satin gloss (400 grid)
- add wax

Will the end result be different with method 1 compared to method 2?
Method 2 seems much easier...

[JonMarsh]

I think that would require a side by side test with a specific product to know for certain... BTW, the sand to high gloss (2000 grit) shouldn't be necessary to that level between the gloss and satin; a sand to 320 or 400 starting at 220 should do fine. You'd want to do that whether finishing gloss or satin, to level things out before your final coats, IMO. Of course, I AM a bit OCD about too many things, I suppose... but when you think about all the work it takes to get to that point in the finishing, another hour or so of effort is a rounding error in the noise floor for time tracking...

[Renron]

I'm coming in late here, and I'm sorry.
For one of the best / easiest ways to get a deep look and a consistent sheen is with many undercoats of gloss.
Then for the last coat (watch your application timing) move the spray nozzle back about 1 foot and spray the gloss again. Moving further away will cause the surface of the atomized droplets to flash off before hitting the object being sprayed. This causes a slight film Splat on the surface which appears as a semi-gloss finish. The key thing to remember is this MUST be done within the reapplication time of the material being used. Different products allow different flash times between coats and if you wait too long before spraying the last coat it won't stick properly. If it's sprayed too soon the previous coats solvents will melt the flashed droplets and you'll end up with orange peel finish instead of semi-gloss. I have found this to be an excellent way to achieve an overall consistent quality finish.
I used to spray HVLP professionally and this was one of the tricks in my bag of tools.
As always practice on scrap, not the final product. Duh......

Ron

[JonMarsh]

Just posting this where you're likely to see- this afternoon I'm routing test baffles, including for your baby Scanspeak Illuminators. :B Should have some data by COB tomorrow. (cross fingers, don't get any unexpected hone-do's.)

[Renron]

Well Jon, I hope the "little ones" sound good and measure well, I'm sure not up to the Accutons.
Thank you for all your troubles. We the unwashed masses owe you a great debt. Well I do anyway.
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Made progress, got the test baffle fabricated, but with issues with Fuzzmeasure 4, and meeting my daughter and her now husband in the afternoon and for dinner, just ran out of time. But the week after the 4th off, so there will be more progress soon...

[shootinnutz]

Happy 4th of July everyone. I was at lumber liquidators and saw they had 1x12x48 bamboo stair treads. Would it be possible to glue three of these together and make a baffle? Thanks,Paul

[JonMarsh]

Happy 4th of July everyone. I was at lumber liquidators and saw they had 1x12x48 bamboo stair treads. Would it be possible to glue three of these together and make a baffle? Thanks,Paul

If they have flat smooth surfaces that can be glued, it should be possible- no different than the bamboo boards that size which I buy from woodworkers source. Can you link to pictures?

[shootinnutz]

Thanks John, I'm going there later today.

[shootinnutz]

Took a picture but don't know how to paste it.They have horizontal and vertical boards. When you cut off the stair nose you have 11 1/2".

[dar47]

Sounds like a score, hope there is no air gaps in the core? I did a baffle out of an oak stair tread but core was not as nice as I hoped for. I painted it black and it being oak took far to much work and product to get it nice.

[shootinnutz]

Thanks Darrel he showed me some of the vertical bamboo boards and they didn't look bad at all.

[Renron]

ShootinNutz,
Someday I'll ask you about your screen name, however, today I'll ask if the Bamboo tread from Lumber Liq. is a lay up like a cutting board or if it's like a veneer face on a press/particle board core. From the pictures it looks like a particle board core, larger grains than MDF would be.

Jon,
Would this even matter? Or perhaps even help? ie; CLD dampening?

Ron

[JonMarsh]

That makes a big difference- bamboo veneer on a PB core is nothing special structurally- LBL ply or boards, whether the cutting board style or three layer LBL like my Isiris build, is very strong, very hard, and has excellent internal damping. PB doesn't meet any of those requirements.

Woodworkers source has 3/4" by 12" by 48" boards, which can be shipped UPS; that's what I'm doing my newest build with.

[Steve Manning]

If you have a local lumber yard if they don't carry it they still might be able to get it for you. I've checked a couple of places in my neck of the woods and for 3/4"X48"X96" sheets of bamboo it's running $220 to 250 a sheet. Might be another option to look at.

[Renron]

Jon,
How tall are your bases as pictured in post #666? No really, it's post #666

[JonMarsh]

Yup, mark of the Devil! That should have been your clue... :W

They're 3-1/2" tall, rebated for the phenolic panel to fit in flush. Made from nominal 1" x 4" maple from Home Depot (not all stores carry maple, one in my area does) which of course is actually 3/4" x 3-1/2".

[JonMarsh]

Trial Layout

Well, been a busy morning and early afternoon.

I attempted a trial layout based on the assumption of a hollow base similar to the one for the original Ardent, the outside dimensions of the base about 3/8" in from the cabinet bottom, and likely made of 1x3" maple as I used for the previous one. On that basis I made a paper template of the available space and using components I've selected attempted a trial layout.




A few notes relative to the schematic above- I've turned the 68uF C6D into a 47 uf + 22 uF; C3 is now a Superior standard 22 uF, single cap.

Floral backdrop is optional for the final build. :B

It looks doable to me.

I'll also prepare a midrange layout that fits in the existing rectangular cutout in the bottom of the cabinet, with small daughter boards for the woofer and tweeter crossover, which is what I expect you'll want to use if you go with the existing bases.

This was my first trial layout for building the crossover into the base.