Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[JonMarsh]

Thanks Craig! Jon, those cabs are looking mighty spiffy!

3M made some big contributions to that! Kept me from dying or losing 30 IQ points when I was spraying all that lacquer! :W

[5th element]

A fairly big contribution imo

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, when you're starting with low numbers, you can't afford to lose 30 more points!

[Hank]

We try to protect your lungs and the bonus is protecting your IQ! Such a deal!

[JonMarsh]

Isn't life grand when it works out that way? :W

[5th element]

I've just been using some of my 3M products to keep my IQ intact too, gotta love not having to worry about fumes as you're concentrating on applying your finish.

[JonMarsh]

Yesterday was auto and domestic maintenance day, including installing the new window regulator in the driver side door of my element- that went fine, and I figure I saved myself about $250 at least doing it myself- both on the part cost and labor.

So finally this afternoon I got all the pieces together and setup in the family room to do some measurements, and spend some time trying to tweak the felt/grille setup. I actually ended up cutting away quite a bit of the felt at this point, to the point where there is only a shallow V at the bottom. This seemed to do the best job and the least damage, and does work better than just the bare cabinet.

This is the relatively un-smoothed response setup in the back side of the family room, measured out to 30 kHz (the first line after 10kHz is not 15 kHz):




And to clearer highlight the "overall trend" at this measurement position (1 meter distance, 1 meter height- sort of close for a three way)




Some general comments- in the relatively non ideal quick and dirty setup, LF response is nonetheless quite deep and articulate- and being sealed, extra gravy on the articulate part. With a bit more careful setup, there's no reason to not expect solid in room performance to 30 Hz.

2nd, there seems to be an elevated midrange response plateau between 300 Hz and 1100 Hz. But, the weird thing is, it doesn't really sound like that- something about in room LF and mid balance seems to mitigate this. Yet, the engineer in me wants to fix it.

Now, I did a fair amount of listening, but just through the test setup, that is, feeding the T.C. Electronik firewire audio interface used for testing, which drive an Ayre K5 Preamp and Aragon X3 power amp. Cardas interconnect and speaker cables were used, just Golden Presence (which actually normally emphasize the midrange and presence region a bit subjectively, to me).

Cuts were mostly high res source, either ripped SACD or HD Tracks or similar. Just played through the Vox player, which is a very decent simple player, and which does on the fly optimizations for audio playback, but I wouldn't describe it as state of the art. But then, not much of anything on a Mac or PC is for music playback, though some things are pretty decent. It was doing on the fly sample rate conversion for music playback, as the T.C. unit was running at 96 kHz. This is not a recommended configuration, but didn't have time to change over. More concerned with overall balance, anyway.

Some of the test material:

San Marco Modena- Al DeMeola, SACD Rip converted to 88.2 kHz
Gavotte in B Minor- Jacque Loussier Trio, SACD Rip converted to 88.2 kHz
Air on a G string - same
Black Magic Woman- Santanna, SACD rip converted to 88.2 kHz
Just a little loving - Shelby Lynn, HD Tracks
Gaia- James Taylor, SACD rip converted to 88.2 kHz
Hoy se cumplen seis semannas - AIFF file ripped from CD from Cuba
Rumor has it- Adele - Live,
While my guitar gently weeps - Beatles, 24 bit USB stick
Ballad of a well known gun- Elton John, SACD rip converted to 88.2 kHz
Ecotopia - Oregon, SACD Rip, 176 kHz
Spiral - Hiromi Uhera, SACD Rip, converted to 88.2 kHz


How does this stuff sound? (keeping in mind it's mono- one speaker)

well, big, lush, very detailed deep and harmonically authentic bass, a clear clean top end that sounds just a touch recessed or polite, and a very lush detailed midrange.

Particular standouts are syncopated drum/bass combinations which retain impact from both but don't muddle them together, like Gavotte in B Minor and Ballad of a well known gun.

I listened to the Shelby Lynn cut listening for different things because of an article I read online (possibly Absolute Sound) where the review discussed why he used that track, particularly for the relative level and balance in reproduction on any system under test between the piano and bass and drums in the opening before she sings.

I also listened to the standard Northern CA DIY test tracks, a mix of several highlighting piano, vocal, and other readily identifiable instruments.

All in all, the results were quite pleasing considering the source and signal chain! Which means I need to hook them up and listen with the big gear, too...

Frankly, these sound much more musical and balanced than the first set of Ardents when they were first fired up- and even after the last set of driver and balance tweaks. Those Wavecor woofers bring a lot to the party-- no doubt about it! Right now, I'd still describe the balance as a bit on the lush or zaftig side- something that works better with a lot of standard recordings then some more neutral measured results. This is interesting...

I can think of several follow up actions though before "release to production"-

• Set this one up in the big system setup and listen in mono in place of one of the Isiris- evaluate tonal balance
• Reveiw the crossover network and assay a design revision to adjust the midrange level to something more nominally flat.
• Complete the second cabinet with modifications to the crossover reflecting the simulated design changes
• Measure that system, and listen to it also in the big source gear setup.
• Assess the measured versus listening correlation, and at that point finalize the design

The thing that is puzzling, is that it doesn't really sound like the midrange is elevated- in room from my listening position, bass and miss sound very balanced, and the highs a touch soft, which with this Firewire audio interface and the Aragon power amps, is not a bad combination. This bears further investigation- if these were just for me as casual listening speakers, I might not bother doing anything more- any issue they have seem to be on the euphonic side, so far. But for the sake of the team effort, this should be sorted out further.

One other point worth mentioning is that having the cabinets higher with these thick bases is not necessarily a benefit- the ideal listening axis IS aimed up a bit, and now it's a couple of inches higher for ideal summation on axis. This is fine for the net power response in the room, but I sure wouldn't suggest listening to these lying down on a low couch- that would be less than optimum in the mid to tweeter crossover area. Sit or stand... for best results!

[5th element]

S'funny you should mention that because the first thing I thought when looking at the graph was - needs more baffle step compensation. Then again we know that the amount of BSC required depends on the room, the loudspeaker positioning and sometimes your position relative to any nearby boundaries. I would be hesitant to use a lower amount with this design as it is largely intended for free space listening, that any the design is inherently very low distortion. Usually its the lower distortion designs that need the most BSC because they do sound so very clean.

Usually the way I balance BSC is by dialling in the full amount and then gradually reducing it till the overblown bass doesn't bother me any more. With very clean sounding loudspeakers you can sometimes use none and it will sound pretty good anyway, then you start dialing in more and you're like, well this is good too, it was good before though..am I applying enough? Too much? Dang it. So I choose to go the other route, apply more than you need, usually the full 6dB, this typically sounds too much then reduce until it doesn't irritate any more then leave it at that.

As you've got the PC, and all those boxes of digital tricks, () it would probably be worth balancing these initially with a DSP, then once you're happy with the sound, measure the speakers with the DSP in the chain and replicate what you measure with the passive crossover. You could also do this with LspCADs crossover emulator.

[Juhazi]

5ht element said it nice and well! This kind of 1m response sounds very clean and pure, but (depending on room/placement) bass needs some boost at least with moderate listening levels. Sort of loudness contouring. I believe that 2dB down 300-1200 would be nice and make them sound more "matured". Low bass does not need anything else, perhaps some tone adjustment (if you have and dare to use that knob in your amp) at really low levels.

[JonMarsh]

I hear you Matt - that's a good methodology, and what I generally do, too. Now, the odd thing here, is that for this measurement this weekend, they are way out in the open, nearest side wall is the glass wall going to the patio, which at that point had the door open for the doggies with a simple dual panel fly screen closed magnetically. They were about 3-4 feet from that, close to the open door, and not quite half way along the long glass wall- I'd deliberately put them in a spot where I expected minimal reinforcement from any adjacent boundaries- something close to outdoor measurements- which I should do next as a check.

Well, I'll proceed as planned above, and look at pulling in that midrange region by 2 dB measured, with the second one, and see how that sounds....

One of the things concluded in the development of the original Avalons is that full BSC didn't sound right, and it was pulled back to about 3-4 dB.

Let's see if I can make some progress on this during the week, in spite of my work schedule- next weekend we have to finish organizing and packing for the trip to the Seattle area for the GF's niece's wedding- we're driving up there, and doing some camping on the way back, which GF has been looking forward to all summer. Leaving on the 30th...

[JonMarsh]

Another clue emerges

I went back to my first driver measurements- another clue emerges when I think about this a bit more...





The green and blue plots are at different heights on the woofer axis, and I believe more representative of what goes out into the room. The red plot is measured :"high" and close, and shows a more elevated output between 300 and 500. But, when one measures at the 1 meter test position for all driver outputs (as done yesterday), that curve effectively is working from the red curve.

How this possible "insight" affects things is the choices for modification of LF driver response and midrange level, and some changes in test setup, moving to a longer test distance.

I have also looked at the crossover with regards to the HF lobe behavior and phase, and have some fixes in LspCAD which should improve things on a lower listening and measurement axis. Fortunately, not difficult to implement things- like adding a 1uF cap in parallel in the first section of the tweeter circuit, and possibly swapping out one coil or cap in the midrange crossover. More details soon, I hope.

[5th element]

I am surprised at how much difference you're getting between 3 and 600Hz considering that the drivers are operating as pure pistons and are mounted close together.

As you said though the red curve gives you more output between 3 and 600Hz, but less just below it, with the other curve being the opposite. Different measuring positions are clearly going to affect how we visually perceive the balance of the loudspeaker to be, at least from the point of view of looking at frequency response graphs.

I guess this is one of those times where you're basically considering how much efficiency you want to throw away vs getting a more appealing presentation. It's never easy in that respect, throwing away efficiency just never seems right!

Have you considered trying to model the woofers as a 3.5 way instead of a standard 3 way just to see if it helps at all? I wonder if the difference in the curves happens at all to be interference from the two drivers? If you .5 way'd the bottom one and increased the roll off of its top end, it might change things for the better.

[JonMarsh]

I am surprised at how much difference you're getting between 3 and 600Hz considering that the drivers are operating as pure pistons and are mounted close together.

As you said though the red curve gives you more output between 3 and 600Hz, but less just below it, with the other curve being the opposite. Different measuring positions are clearly going to affect how we visually perceive the balance of the loudspeaker to be, at least from the point of view of looking at frequency response graphs.

I guess this is one of those times where you're basically considering how much efficiency you want to throw away vs getting a more appealing presentation. It's never easy in that respect, throwing away efficiency just never seems right!

Have you considered trying to model the woofers as a 3.5 way instead of a standard 3 way just to see if it helps at all? I wonder if the difference in the curves happens at all to be interference from the two drivers? If you .5 way'd the bottom one and increased the roll off of its top end, it might change things for the better.

It's a function of radiating size and wavelength- and I agree that one could improve this by rolling off the lower woofer earlier, the crossover would certainly get large and costly. As it is, we're rolling off fairly hard starting about 400 on the woofers.

Setting up in a more typical position and addressing topics in the order I've laid out should get me to where things ought to be- I don't want to throw way the clean top end and power handling of those woofers, they can do a lot more at 400 Hz than the midrange can. Ideally we'd just measure on axis between the two woofers- this gives the best characteristics- and it can be done at a longer throw- and this is more representative to what I think I hear.

I'd hope to work on this on the coming weekend, as well as pack for the trip, but I've been told early this AM that they have some new work plans in mind and new things they want testing locally and redundant to what our own team does in Munich, and want all of us in the lab at least one day this weekend, but most likely both days. This is not making me a happy camper, to say the least!

[5th element]

Can you tell them to screw the work stuff cause you've already made plans? I mean isn't the weekend first and foremost your time?

I guess you could always raise the xover point a little if it helps with the midrange power handling and compression.

[JonMarsh]

I guess you could always raise the xover point a little if it helps with the midrange power handling and compression.

Essentially, I did in the initial design- to lessen requirements on the midrange driver, and to reduce the sheer size of crossover components.

[sdl2112]

Valuable data there Jon...I appreciate your in-depth measurements and description. Just this weekend I was measuring dual woofers in a test box trying to get a feel for SPL levels, interaction between the two, BSC..etc.

What do you estimate the 2.83V sensitivity of the Wavecor Ardent?

[dar47]

Sounds like their making good sound and your working on weeding out the last bit of mystery. Nice to see your getting lots of input from the good folks here:T

Interesting result with the added height on your bases. I think the lower bases on mine and Ben's should help me as mine should be placed approximately 16' from the siting position with 2' from the front wall to the back of the cabs and hopefully still in a nice sitting position. I actually thought of suggesting a 6 degree tilt for my own selfish reasons but glad I kept my yap shut. Wondering how close to the front wall I can get with your 3-4 db of BSC?

Sorry to hear their messing with your plans again. I took a week off to redo the main floor study at what I thought would be an easy pace but I've been working from sun up to sun down. This was suppose to be be one of those IKEA mods where you use some of their stuff and customize around it but the customize part and having to repaint at my daughter the Architect suggestion wore me out. The older I get the less I'm liking these house renos.

[cjd]

the crossover would certainly get large and costly

Wait.... this is holding you back from perfection?

I hope you return to full health soon. :rofl:

[JonMarsh]

Wait.... this is holding you back from perfection?

I hope you return to full health soon. :rofl:

Yeah, me too!

You know, there are things you will do for yourself, and not attempt to be practical, and then, if you're doing something that others will share the pleasure and pain, one must focus also on balance and tradeoffs- even better if it just forces you to examine one's assumptions a bit more closely and come up with a more complete and encompassing optimization... hopefully that's the track we're on!

[JonMarsh]

Sounds like their making good sound and your working on weeding out the last bit of mystery. Nice to see your getting lots of input from the good folks here:T

Interesting result with the added height on your bases. I think the lower bases on mine and Ben's should help me as mine should be placed approximately 16' from the siting position with 2' from the front wall to the back of the cabs and hopefully still in a nice sitting position. I actually thought of suggesting a 6 degree tilt for my own selfish reasons but glad I kept my yap shut. Wondering how close to the front wall I can get with your 3-4 db of BSC?

Sorry to hear their messing with your plans again. I took a week off to redo the main floor study at what I thought would be an easy pace but I've been working from sun up to sun down. This was suppose to be be one of those IKEA mods where you use some of their stuff and customize around it but the customize part and having to repaint at my daughter the Architect suggestion wore me out. The older I get the less I'm liking these house renos.

You raise an interesting point there- re distance to front wall- as I've been optimizing these for pretty near free standing- so, tell you what I'll do- I'll incorporate the tweeter mod I simulated yesterday to lower the listening axis (I even think I'm lucky and have a pair of 1 uF MR Clarity caps on hand to do it!) and I'll see how they measure other wise as close as feasible to the front wall, and if there is an optimization suitable for that. I'll still do the other things planned- and measure at greater distance, and a lower net axis, as i think this correlates better with what I was hearing this Sunday (which I mostly really liked! ). The Isiris pull a better disappearing act, (at this stage) and have a more neutral top, but a big part of that may be the difference in source electronics- I'll have to setup to do some listening tests eliminating that variable once I've got my chosen crossover tweaks ironed out. And yeah, it looks like I would have lost my bet about the crossover being essentially finalized! :W

BTW, GF's question when she first walked in the room when Jeanette was playing (she calls the Ardents "Rob and Jeanette" (friends of hers from Canada, the big ones Bonnie and Clyde), "That sounds a little different- did you do something to the bass with Bonnie and Clyde? That sounds nice..."

Yeah, I can see where extensive house renovations driven by other people's desires could get a little old... good luck with that effort!

[JonMarsh]

Valuable data there Jon...I appreciate your in-depth measurements and description. Just this weekend I was measuring dual woofers in a test box trying to get a feel for SPL levels, interaction between the two, BSC..etc.

What do you estimate the 2.83V sensitivity of the Wavecor Ardent?

They seem to come in pretty close to the factory spec, around 86.4 dB by my most accurate estimate. That's for a single driver, or for two wired in series- in the latter case, the extra driver coupled gives you 3 dB more output, but doubling the impedance gives you 3 dB less output, so it's a zero sum game.

Driving one cabinet a moderate listening levels I was seeing voltage excursion on the scope beyond 20V peak. Stereo would have been louder, of course. Keeping the inductor insertion loss low is fairly important in a design like this. With 4 dB BSC, the net efficiency would be somewhere around 82 db- similar to a big magneplanar speaker. They like a hundred to two hundred watts per channel, too. The Avalon Indra is more sensitive, but the bottom end won't touch the Ardents for either quantity, extension, or definition, IMO. These are pretty killer for the size of boxes they are...

[sdl2112]

That's around the number I was expecting. I was viewing these as kind of a "sleeper" speaker, probably will surprise people with how much extension for their size...tradeoff being efficiency. I will be interested if you detect any downside to the lower efficiency/higher mass cones.

Here's your Isiris to Ardent comparison normalized to 100db...pretty nice that the 8 inchers extend the same (maybe a little more) as the 12s

[5th element]

I think the nice thing with the Ardents and with three ways in general, is even if you pad down the midrange and tweeter considerably all you're doing is throwing away power. Even with significant resistive padding they are still going to give you the dynamic range they are capable of.

This is different to actually having a low efficiency mid and tweeter that would actually need to handle all that power themselves to reach the same SPL. If you've got enough quality power to hit the SPLs required from the system then it shouldn't make any difference (At least from a mid and tweeter stand point). It's a nice trade off in my opinion, especially if the size of the loudspeakers is a concern.

The woofers, having large coils, thick metal cones and extensive motor assemblies should have good thermal mass and a relatively good ability to shift heat out of the boxes too. Those metal cones will surely help considering that the system is sealed.

[JonMarsh]

What both of you have highlighted is the degree to which I've tried to make the Wavecor Ardent a smaller version of the Isiris while retaining the form factor of the original Ardent.... the similarity of the LF response profile is no accident, but the result of the driver selection and sealed alignment concept with two moderate Qts 4 ohm drivers in series in both cases. Doesn't require an arc welder to drive, as regards current delivery, unlike many systems with dual 8 ohm woofers and a midrange with a low crossover point. The real trick and enabling factor was the introduction of the Wavecor woofers, which like the Aurasound sort of straddle the boundary between subwoofer and conventional woofer, and both have extremely well behaved cones for the size of the driver, with primary break up mode at a high frequency for the driver type. Scott's plot certainly highlights the sensitivity difference- there's no getting around Hoffman's Iron law! :B Maybe for fun I'll try driving the Ardent's with a set of Palladiums, just to see how the handle a rig with high peak capability (600W clipping into 8 ohms...) - I wouldn't put heavily compressed program through at that power level, though.


It will be interesting to see is just how well the set of tradeoffs which Matt alludes to will work- the C79 is not as sensitive as the C173-90, but it does't need to be able to play as loud cleanly in the smaller system. And I still say I find the 6640 to be the nicest dome I've heard short of diamond tweeter. Very neutral... and dynamic. Man, I wish I could have the rest of this week off just to work on them!

[benthe8track]

This flurry of over-my-head technical talk is exciting!

"a clear clean top end that sounds just a touch recessed or polite"

This impression I found most interesting, I guess I assumed (with my limited experience) that a Be tweeter would sound similar to Ti, Al or something else that would tend to be more bright.

[JonMarsh]

This flurry of over-my-head technical talk is exciting!

"a clear clean top end that sounds just a touch recessed or polite"

This impression I found most interesting, I guess I assumed (with my limited experience) that a Be tweeter would sound similar to Ti, Al or something else that would tend to be more bright.

well, with a little work you could voice it that way, but actually, the point of going Be is that is SHOULDN'T sound alike a Ti or Al tweeter! It should sound like the original program material....

Why? Well, my theory is that the relatively low breakup mode and high Q of Ti and AL tweeters results in two big issues-

• Direct resonance amplification of distortion products- that is, the breakup mode amplifiers 2nd, 3rd, 4th order products that fall into the range of the break up mode, and disturb the linearity of the VC in the gap
• The HF resonance, when excited, is generally at a frequency above the audible range for humans (not for dogs or bats, I suppose) but the resonance disturbance of the dome and VC creates intermodulation products at high frequencies that have side band products that are in the audible frequency range- you can see this kind of effect in multi-tone spectral distortion plots like MarkK likes to run.
• So, you hear distortion and edge at a lower frequency range that you'd expect- it's just the tweeter equivalent of what can go on with midranges and woofers, also.
• This effect is why the most preferred and best sounding Accuton mids, for example, are the ones that use special cone treatments (cost money) and reduce the upper breakup mode Q to a very low value
• Last, while I have not measured the new Scanspeak Be tweeter, which likely uses a different dome than the 6640, NONE of the two pairs of 6640 I've measured have a discernable upper break up mode or an impedance glitch you'd expect to see due to the mechanical resonance. Neither do my Jantzen JDT-1024 diamond tweeters. This, IMO, is a primary key to getting really high fidelity out of a tweeter.

Now, some of what I attribute to a polite or recessed top end is likely the forward power response angle in the crossover region, and I think that can be addressed with the additional 1 uF parallel capacitance on the first cap, and possibly a small adjustment to the pad level, depending on what the ultimate impact of the grill cloth is.

Last, in other news, yesterday we were informed we needed to work this weekend, including Sunday- particularly if we are to have any hope at all for one of my colleagues and I to take the time off starting the mid of next week (GF and I going to Seattle for wedding, colleagues wife going in for serious surgery which will have a significant recuperation time). So far this week, we've been getting side tracked to issues that aren't normally our assigned responsibility due to resource issues and crunch time before a major proto build. So, unfortunately, no updates are likely, as we have to pack this weekend, too! GF is not pleased.... neither am I. Well, two more months...

Only really good news this week is that the Corbin seat for the VFR shipped, and should arrive next Tuesday.

[JonMarsh]

Just the facts, and keeping it real...

OK, just to present just facts, note, here is the 6640 SPL family of curves (on an original Ardent cabinet)




One could argue that there is a slow roll off in the response and a slight peaking at 35 kHz; as is typical for SS, the 3rd harmonic (overall output capability) is quite good, and the 2nd Harmonic (symmetry of the motor) leaves something to be desired in comparison.

Here's a distortion plot of the 6640, measured at 2.83VRMS




Now, here's what I measured on a Transducer Labs N26C. This one has the ceramic dome. I'm still waiting for their long promised Be dome version. This driver design has a LOT of potential...




The distortion performance is for the most part excellent, I might even go so far as to say unrivaled; though there is a blip in the HD3 response at 10kHz due to the 30 kHz cone breakup mode. Man, if they could get a clean low resonance Be dome on this, this would be killer, especially for two way systems. They have it on the updated web site...



They don't show as much data as I'd like



None of their distributors seem to have the Be tweeter. If I wasn't tied up in knots on so many other topics, I'd probably contact them direct about it. For now, it's still interesting, but not critical.

[5th element]

I really do wish that they'd put some more effort into the visual appearance of their tweeters. The performance is second to none, but they look horrible. I wonder if they could use neo too for the motor and keep the size more compact. SEAS had it right when they made their diamond dome, what was it 85mm?, in diameter.

[5th element]

That foreign website has measured both Beryllium domes from Scan. The new version has a frequency response that looks like this.



But then their 6640 measurement also looks like this.



Both show quite significant ringing at a little above 30k. This does impact on the HD to a certain degree, but not anywhere near as bad as some of SEAS alu domes do.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for posting those additional measurements!

I found some crossover caps needed to update the tweeter section, so when I'm not in the Cupertino lab on the weekend (like this Sunday morning) I'll be able to update the network. Also found an extra set of woofer inductors that may be useful, too, based on simulations I ran on the 21st.

Once I get home today, though, I'm going to be in a mad frenzy trying to make some progress on getting packed for the first leg of the trip on Wednesday.

My little bit of fun was running a couple of errands yesterday evening after work on the new scooter. It's definitely an opportunity to bring out the hooligan in a person- (provided I don't kill myself first!). If you wack open the throttle a bit in 3rd or 4th in to accelerate to 75 or 80, it's actually startling the way that scooter leaps forward- even though the riding posture is canted well forward, it's a reminder to tighten one's grip on the bars (consider this scooter will do over 60 in any gear, and 3rd is good for 117, 4th good for 138, and either 3rd or 4th can break loose the rear tire just by the application of throttle- this demands a bit of respect).

Alas, the team manager I'm reporting into at the customer doesn't demand, or perhaps, not deserve much respect- the ostensible reason why he wanted the whole team in here even today is for work I already completed on Friday. One of my colleagues thinks he's trying to convince his own management that they need to hire more people so that he can become a manager, too.

[5th element]

It does frustrate me considerably sometimes when the management in some places of work is a complete joke. It's one thing for them to be incompetent, as this indirectly affects others, but it's another when they try to further themselves at the direct expense of others.

On another topic, I would like to point out the scale of those graphs I previously posted as I had originally missed it, each line actually represents 1dB. This puts things into way better perspective, the Be dome breakup is only around 6dB in magnitude, which is pretty amazing all things considered and not at all like most metal domes. The other thing to pay attention to is how impressively flat the Be domes actually are, the wave guide effect of the newer dome notwithstanding.

I wouldn't mind betting that the Be dome from Transducer Labs would probably be an outstanding product.

[JonMarsh]

On another topic, I would like to point out the scale of those graphs I previously posted as I had originally missed it, each line actually represents 1dB. This puts things into way better perspective, the Be dome breakup is only around 6dB in magnitude, which is pretty amazing all things considered and not at all like most metal domes. The other thing to pay attention to is how impressively flat the Be domes actually are, the wave guide effect of the newer dome notwithstanding.

I wouldn't mind betting that the Be dome from Transducer Labs would probably be an outstanding product.

I did pickup on the scaling- it's a very detailed response plot, but the first impression can be unduly pessimistic!

I certainly also think a Be tweeter from Transducer Labs could be fairly outstanding- the ceramic is quite good! In fact, I've been thinking about sending a PM to Evil Twin to update his Nascent design with the Transducer labs tweeter- could be a super low distortion combo then just begging to work with a nice sub... of course, I think he should ditch the offset front panel and B3 crossover, and go back to a classic NatalieP approach, though keeping the bamboo. Some guys are hard to convince of constructive change, especially if they didn't think of it first... :W

[JonMarsh]

Today is first day of vacation, which means a mad scramble to finish the packing I couldn't do on the weekend because of work, and get out of Dodge by 10 AM!

However, to kick off vacation properly I had to take a short ride to Starbucks with the new seat first...

We all have our own preferences. I have a preference for Corbin seats going on 20 years (since 1992, bought first one for a NT Hawk 650)- I just got my new one last night, only had a chance to ride it to coffee this morning, before we leave on our vacation camping trip for niece's wedding (GF always has busy agendas), but it delivers as expected, and also has a more built up and comfortable passenger section.







As expected, it relieves the pressure hot spot on the two bone points at the bottom of my pelvis, and provides more front to back support, alleviating the tendency with the stock seat to slide forward and wind up flat against the tank. (they sell a lot of tank protectors because of that!). And as usual, somehow it feels like they used my butt as the mold guide, the fit is that good... even brand new- they do break in some, and feel better with passing time.

The materials are first rate, including the custom seat pan- the stock set feels like a flimsy piece of plastic and vinyl made with cheap materials and design in comparison. Like comparing a cheap stamped frame white box woofer to the Wavecor SW223BD01.

[5th element]

Whenever I see that woofer it always makes me think of Evil Twin. And now the bike too.

[JonMarsh]

Multiple personality disorder... Aka dissociative personality disorder... We all have our crosses to bear... :W

[dar47]

Have a nice relaxing trip you earned it. :W

Hey I saw that little procrastinating bit in the other thread, no worries we tend to go by a famous Canadian handy man's moto of " Just make it right" and how ever long that takes it takes.

I am also off on Saturday to see Ben's new digs in Calgary. He promised to haul my flat lander butt up a mountain so that should be fun. 8O

[5th element]

Depends on what mountain haha. When Jon is worked as hard as he is, it's a wonder that he gets anything done at all. Still, working on projects like this, in what little free time you do have, can be quite relaxing (and very rewarding), even if it is hard work.

[Alaric]

Nice seat , Jon! Corbin seats never have enough padding for me on 1000 mile days , or even 500 mile days. "Butt" they do always have a nice fit , especially after break-in. Not sliding in to the tank is a huge plus , especially when you have to grab a handful of front brake!

[JonMarsh]

Nice seat , Jon! Corbin seats never have enough padding for me on 1000 mile days , or even 500 mile days. "Butt" they do always have a nice fit , especially after break-in. Not sliding in to the tank is a huge plus , especially when you have to grab a handful of front brake!

That latter point is so true! But you know, I solved the former problem by sticking to 500 mile days when I can... I haven't seen any motorcycle seat that makes a 1000 mile day realizable, certainly not on a sport bike! Now, the Corbin on my ST1300 is another matter-



It's at least reasonably endurable, and oh, it feels so good when you get off and stop to get a bite to eat! :B

[JonMarsh]

Have a nice relaxing trip you earned it. :W

Hey I saw that little procrastinating bit in the other thread, no worries we tend to go by a famous Canadian handy man's moto of " Just make it right" and how ever long that takes it takes.

I am also off on Saturday to see Ben's new digs in Calgary. He promised to haul my flat lander butt up a mountain so that should be fun. 8O

Yeah, that should be cool! I flew in to Calgary to present at an energy research conference at Lake Louise in Bamf back in 2008- I think of it as the Canadian version of Boulder Colorado, but obviously much colder in the winter time!

Lake Louise was beautiful, but the light was messed up in the morning when I had a little time off to shoot, and I actually had to take these (and other) pictures through a window during a short break between afternoon sessions....





Yes, the water really does look like that- it's not manipulated in Photoshop or Lightroom! BTW, I was there in October- was pretty chilly in the morning- but it hadn't snowed there yet that season, according to locals I asked. What you see was left over from the previous year.

Well, I'm glad to hear you guys are a bit patient, but I'm keen on getting this wrapped up- it's one of a few blocking points to making progress in the organization and plan at the homestead! Besides, I want to hear them in stereo soon!

[5th element]

All I can say to that is wow.

[benthe8track]

Yeah, that should be cool! I flew in to Calgary to present at an energy research conference at Lake Louise in Bamf back in 2008- I think of it as the Canadian version of Boulder Colorado, but obviously much colder in the winter time!

Lake Louise was beautiful, but the light was messed up in the morning when I had a little time off to shoot, and I actually had to take these (and other) pictures through a window during a short break between afternoon sessions....





Yes, the water really does look like that- it's not manipulated in Photoshop or Lightroom! BTW, I was there in October- was pretty chilly in the morning- but it hadn't snowed there yet that season, according to locals I asked. What you see was left over from the previous year.

Well, I'm glad to hear you guys are a bit patient, but I'm keen on getting this wrapped up- it's one of a few blocking points to making progress in the organization and plan at the homestead! Besides, I want to hear them in stereo soon!

Nice pics! I climbed up the Fuhrmann Ledges route which is visible in your 2nd pic. Got turned around by too hot weather, may make another attempt on Lefroy this fall. I'm thinking well head up to Banff and then to Lake Louise on Monday.

[Alaric]

Beautiful ST! I love the STs. They've always been fantastic mile eaters , and that engine is a velvet hammer. I have always had a soft spot for bikes that have a rheostat type throttle response. I had a Mustang seat on my old 750 for road trips , and it was surprisingly accommodating on long rides. Phoenix to Abilene was a short ride with the 750 , but I was 20+ years younger. I also ran from Ft. Lauderdale to Orlando and back regularly. #&*@#! love bugs were of far more concern than seating! 100 miles of them would make me look like an Orkin ad.

[JonMarsh]

Some folks feel that the ST has the soul of a Hamilton Beech Blender, based on it's acoustics, but it's got great torque when you need it, and makes you feel like 80-100 is the normal speed to ride on the highway- which takes a bit of care, needless to say, considering the gendarme. Ironically, the longest ride I've taken on it is when I picked it up and brought it home in late December 2010- from Russleville Arkansas! Even had my 600 mile service pre-appointment made at Max's in Abilene Texas, where I spent my 2nd night, after riding in the evening the first day from the dealer West of Little Rock to a town just a little ways south of Little Rock. Most used special feature on the bike was the electric raise and lowered windshield- every touring bike should have one, which is why it's amazing to me after all these years that Goldwings still have a fixed shield! Overall, the trip back took me about 500 miles per day, getting home the middle of Christmas day- angled south west and basically followed the southern border from El Paso on.

[Alaric]

Via I-10? If so , you went right past me. I've heard the appliance argument too , but if the bike does what I want when I want to , I'm a fan. They're a little heavy , but as you said-80-100 feels normal , and it will still get with the program when you twist it open at those speeds. The torque curve and the ability to make the road smooth win out over engine noise for me. Besides , if you know how many parts are in the engine and what they're all doing at 5k RPM , the engine sounds make it the internal combustion equivalent of a Swiss watch.