Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

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  • dar47
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2008
    • 876

    Not sure others who are building will enjoy the total, haha.

    Some thoughts after spending a few weeks with the new speaks, first I was generally a 60% music 40% movies with my old setup but now I go down stairs with the intent to do music for an hour then watch a movie on the new 70" Sony but end up doing music all night. I always found it a bit of a drag time wise trying to find, down load or buy new music I haven't heard before but now with the new music service subscription "Rdio" Ben got me for Christmas I find myself blasting through music creating play lists of lots of new stuff. Now have lots of music to get. Sorry I'm an old guy still learning this streaming stuffops:. Also discovered bypassing my Marantz AV7005 and going through the NAD M51 dac for music Blue Ray concerts at 48Khz has made them new, example Chris Botti in Boston and Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds at Radio City hall.

    Always lots of discussion of how much is to much to put into your speaks and when is enough is enough. Even as a teenager doing car audio, Radio shack driver builds and heath kit builds and many commercial offerings I always felt first get the best speaker you can afford then worry a bought the room, recordings your playing and then gear. Are the Ardents worth the price and effort well if your budget can afford they will make you feel like no need to go any further as most everything else in your chain is just holding them back. Way back when Jon did the first Ardents with the ER18's I thought I have the Modula MK2's, which are crossed to a 10" Seas Roy sub and heard the Scan 6620's in a friends build, his has the scans 7" illum's and thought maybe worth the price and time. I got very excited when the discussion and new build focused on the Wavecor's because I thought for my room these would out do the RS225's I had anchoring my main setup. Room 14' x 35' sitting at 18'. Is the bottom end worth crossing to IB for music? Not for 90% of the material I listen to. Are the 6640's worth the up grade over the 6600's as well as the C79? I find that I am spending all my time listening to as much real instrument pieces as I can,(may change your listening tastes). The mid and tweet step out and sound like real instruments and are more refined. No superlatives from me most good designs do sound stage and a disappearing act well but these take you from 85-90% to 99%. We all live under budget but if that was not an issue I would still have a hard time being steered away for these.

    After 400 plus hours of cab design, 8 baffles and 6 cabs between Ben and I not including Jon's extensive development time are these worth it? Well maybe just another build for Jon (his designs don't disappoint) but my end game has me all smiles, no need for more and Ben although young is still going have a hard time switching these up. I am glad I spend on the crossover, no regrets or switching components later. Only thought now is if I had more room would I put a lesser set of towers beside these for theater as they are loud and clear but sometimes I'm afraid I might bust something. :E Jon you should have a patent on these I wouldn't be surprised if others make money on this concept.

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15308

      Thanks for the kind words and the finalized BOM with costs- I've downloaded and it will be one of the references.

      My take along the lines of what you've been discussing is that if I'd done the Wavecor Ardents before diving into the Isiris, I probably wouldn't have! Yes, they are a slosh more neutral and will play louder with less power, but the Wavecor Ardent edition really makes me smile every time I turn them on and run some tunes through them- and I still haven't setup the grilles or optimized the placement.

      One problem I foresee trying to help guys with a budget Ardent, though I think we've got a good driver line up, the crossover build is a potential obstacle. I'll price out something with good but not great components, but being a three way, it's still not going to be cheap. Maybe try to come up with a couple of tiers of it, at least one that has better caps on the tweeters than something like Solen or CrossCaps.

      Now, I've got to get back to routing some test front panels.... I can't let nice weather like this go unused!

      As to time for things like documentation, next week is the last week in Cupertino, unless something goes seriously wrong. At this point we know there are some issues with the customer project, but it's not related to the parts and firmware we supply.

      One of the nice things about Shark is the model to sheet functionality - semi-automatic, just have to go in and add the dimensioning to the views. So that part shouldn't take long... OTOTH, if you have spare time, I sure wouldn't want to discourage you from taking a pass at it... :W
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • viki_v2
        Member
        • Jun 2012
        • 54

        Will have to wait some time to build these until budget permits.
        Till then could you kindly guide me to ardent styled design based on Dayton rs225. I hope I am not being rude asking here.
        Last edited by viki_v2; 12 January 2015, 08:53 Monday.

        Comment

        • BobEllis
          Super Senior Member
          • Dec 2005
          • 1609

          Viki, i thought I saw you in https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...sign-and-build which is beginning with an RS225 version.

          I will get some test boxes going before too long so I can feed Jon some measured data.
          Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 16:36 Monday. Reason: Update htguide url

          Comment

          • viki_v2
            Member
            • Jun 2012
            • 54

            Yes sir, you surely did. I could not find any proper information on that build.
            Originally posted by BobEllis
            Viki, i thought I saw you in https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...sign-and-build which is beginning with an RS225 version.

            I will get some test boxes going before too long so I can feed Jon some measured data.
            Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 16:36 Monday. Reason: Update htguide url

            Comment

            • BobEllis
              Super Senior Member
              • Dec 2005
              • 1609

              It's coming. As Jon is fond of saying, slow work takes time.

              Comment

              • dar47
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 876

                Those looking for Ardent drawings I got a start today should to be passed them on soon.

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15308

                  That's way cool.... me, I'm still in Cupertino. But doing a count down.

                  4...
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • Wayman
                    Member
                    • May 2014
                    • 89

                    I asked the cad guy at work to recommend software but he hasn't got back to me yet.

                    Cheers, Wayne

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15308

                      Tuesday, and the commute was a stone b*tch!

                      3...
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • augerpro
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Aug 2006
                        • 1867

                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                        Tuesday, and the commute was a stone b*tch!
                        This will help: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...sx_first_look/
                        ~Brandon 8O
                        Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                        Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                        DriverVault
                        Soma Sonus

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15308

                          Yeah, I was streaming the Acura Video from the Detroit Auto show on the production configuration of the new NSX! While on a conference call... cheeky, I know.

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                          It's come a ways since the concept configuration, a lot of questions answered, and in some interesting ways. It's clear the thermal loading is quite a bit higher than what they anticipated with the concept version body- look at how much the rear intakes and other vents have been opened up or added.

                          Quite a different solution than the new Ford GT, which is 2016 some time, and 600Hz, with a rather radical body design (I mean, zero, zero rear visibility- they better have a good rear camera system).


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                          Now, you've got to admit the Ford is super radical looking, and seeing it you'd figure it's got to have twice the horsepower of the NSX, not just 50 Hp more... 550 versus 600. Both use a twin turbo V6, but Honda's ICE tuning is much more conservative, and it's the hybrid electric motors which deliver 150 ponies of the zoom- which should be good for off the line torque.


                          Truthfully, though, I'm conflicted between the NSX and a Tesla P85D. I've worked with the Tesla power train team, too, which further taints my viewpoint. Maybe I'm getting too stodgy in my "mature" years... OTOH, neither of them are a flying DeLorean... but with a 3.1 0-60 time for the P85D, it may beat both of these to 60, maybe even to 100. That's technology...

                          OTOH, the saving fund/set aside I started some years ago to cover (at that time, a hoped for new NSX, then a Tesla) is only about 2/3 of the way there... but as long as I can work another couple of years, I should make it the rest of the way. Good thing my basic expenses are low with a simple lifestyle... other than building speakers!
                          Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 15:34 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • ---k---
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Nov 2005
                            • 5204

                            I'd be happy to get my MX-5 back. .. though I'm not liking the looks of the new one.
                            - Ryan

                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                            Comment

                            • wkhanna
                              Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 5673

                              Originally posted by The Maestro

                              [the] Ford GT...... with a rather radical body design (I mean, zero, zero rear visibility- they better have a good rear camera system).
                              My favorite line from the movie "Cannonball Run":

                              What is behind me is of no concern!
                              _


                              Bill

                              Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                              ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                              FinleyAudio

                              Comment

                              • oneplustwo
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2010
                                • 666

                                Ping me when you're ready to sell your NSX! By then, my savings fund may be ready for your leftovers. =)
                                Zaph SR-71
                                Zaph ZDT 3.5
                                Sunflower Redux
                                12" Dayton HF sub
                                CJD RS 150 MT
                                Revelator bookshelf
                                2x12 Guitar cab
                                Corner loaded line array

                                Comment

                                • augerpro
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Aug 2006
                                  • 1867

                                  Between the NSX, Ford GT, and now photo evidence of a mid-engine Corvette, 2017 will be huge year for car geeks. I'm blown away by the cars made today - even the cheap ones like the Mazda 3 or Ford Focus ST. I just bought a BMW M235xi and it is the most fantastically well rounded machine.
                                  ~Brandon 8O
                                  Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                  Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                  DriverVault
                                  Soma Sonus

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15308

                                    Originally posted by oneplustwo
                                    Ping me when you're ready to sell your NSX! By then, my savings fund may be ready for your leftovers. =)
                                    I've got so much to do with it, though, and probably won't be able to find that kind of time until I retire in 3 or 4 years... well, who knows!?!
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • shootinnutz
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Oct 2014
                                      • 18

                                      Is 3/4x12x48 the right size to order the lbl and are the inside baffles made of bb?I am trying to get all the dimensions for the speakers but can't seem to get them.Thanks,Paul

                                      Comment

                                      • dar47
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2008
                                        • 876

                                        Hi, shoot welcome to the club.

                                        We bought 3/4" 4' x 8' LBL sheets and got 8 pieces out of it so yes you can do that. The inside 2 layers were out of 18mm BB. Outer cab layer 18mm BB as well as bracing. Inside cab layer was 1/2" MDF. If you can't get 18mm you could use 3/4" BB. I am just finishing up dimensioned pdf's and should have them posted tomorrow. Are you CNCing or stick building?

                                        Comment

                                        • shootinnutz
                                          Junior Member
                                          • Oct 2014
                                          • 18

                                          I have talked to a company that does cnc in Pennsylvania but they do furniture but with a drawing it could make it easier for them and me.I don't have the tools or the skills like you guys do. I'll probably find a cabintmaker if I can't get them cnc'd.

                                          Comment

                                          • dar47
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2008
                                            • 876

                                            If you go cabinet maker, tomorrows pdf's can be used. If cnc the model files should have everything they need to do tool path. For model see Ben's dropbox link on page 35 of this thread. If cnc do they have a panel saw to cut the facets?

                                            Comment

                                            • shootinnutz
                                              Junior Member
                                              • Oct 2014
                                              • 18

                                              I will go down and check the shop out talk to him in person. As far as the cabinet maker he never built speakers but does awesome work.Any body around aberdeen md

                                              Comment

                                              • dar47
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Nov 2008
                                                • 876

                                                I got the construction PDF's for those who are going the none CNC route done today, just need to get Ben to add them to his drop box link on page 35. When he gets them up take a peek and let me know if I missed something.

                                                Comment

                                                • Wayman
                                                  Member
                                                  • May 2014
                                                  • 89

                                                  Thanks Dar.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • shootinnutz
                                                    Junior Member
                                                    • Oct 2014
                                                    • 18

                                                    Thanks guys can't wait to see.Just trying to figure out Dropbox so I can use it.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • benthe8track
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Feb 2008
                                                      • 371

                                                      Originally posted by dar47
                                                      I got the construction PDF's for those who are going the none CNC route done today, just need to get Ben to add them to his drop box link on page 35. When he gets them up take a peek and let me know if I missed something.
                                                      Here ya go!

                                                      All the PDF 2D files my dad made plus every conceivable 3D format.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • shootinnutz
                                                        Junior Member
                                                        • Oct 2014
                                                        • 18

                                                        Thank you for posting Ben and your dad too.I just couldn't get the cnc to come up on dropbox

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15308

                                                          Originally posted by dar47
                                                          I got the construction PDF's for those who are going the none CNC route done today, just need to get Ben to add them to his drop box link on page 35. When he gets them up take a peek and let me know if I missed something.
                                                          Cool- I'll take a look.

                                                          Cupertino is done. That is such a relief...

                                                          It sounds like I should start the Build Doc thread for this some time today, and set aside several entries for different parts of the documentation which we can upload and add as links are completed.

                                                          Oops! I see now scanning further down that Ben has added that- I'll start the review today, though I have a bunch of Honey do's to work on this long weekend. And to print out parts of the manual for my new camera.

                                                          We're in the midst of getting really serious for our trip preparations, I was ordering a down sweater style jacket and some other gear yesterday- I've got a lot to pull together, as GF has been doing more snow country stuff and has more things already to use. Next up is a water proof hardshell jacket, fortunately some stuff is already on good sales at REI.
                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                          Isiris
                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                          SMJ
                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                          Calliope
                                                          Ardent D

                                                          In Development...
                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                          Modula PWB
                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15308

                                                            OK, I've snagged the files- should be able to get to them this evening! Thanks!
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • dar47
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Nov 2008
                                                              • 876

                                                              Good to see you finally got to use your "get out of jail free card", that was as long as the the build took.:W

                                                              When do you take off on the down under trip?

                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15308

                                                                Now this time they really ARE downloaded- what I got before with all my right clicking was just the HTML viewer pages in DropBox.

                                                                Design/Build thread should be started in the next day or two. I've been really, REALLY busy with the re-entry to the "normal" version of my job, though with all the people over here from HQ for the IRF integration kick off, there's nothing normal about what's going on right now.
                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                Natalie P
                                                                M8ta
                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                Isiris
                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                SMJ
                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                Calliope
                                                                Ardent D

                                                                In Development...
                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15308

                                                                  OT: Another doggie down, and working on trip prep

                                                                  Rather OT, but part of the ongoing zeitgeist- for weeks we've been commenting that the old boy dog hadn't gotten the memo about having cancer, as he's been quite normal as regards activity and appetite. Yesterday that changed, dramatically, including becoming paralyzed in the rear legs literally overnight, so we had to say farewell to him. As GF has been a rescue dog adopter for a long time, she's seen a lot of this, but it's still hard for her.

                                                                  Indications are the next doggie will be a young 'un, so that doing this every 4-6 years is put on abeyance, at least for a while.

                                                                  We continue to be busy as heck getting ready for the upcoming trip, juggling what we're going to take as we look into things like baggage restrictions with Argentina Aerolineas, and suss out what might be the worst case situation- (regional jet, crappy or no overhead storage, etc.) I just ordered a different carry on backpack for cameras and lenses, one which from reviews I know will just fit under seat on a regional jet in a pinch. That means leaving the new big 600mm telephoto behind, but at least I have a Pentax *300mm manual F4 lens of high quality to pinch hit, and testing with the live view + magnification, I can get a very good focus and tack sharp results. Filters for that one came in yesterday.

                                                                  And I've got a Ricoh GR on the way as a pocket camera, for those sudden unplanned/unexpected opportunities. (was 2013 Camera of the Year on Diglloyd site, and other sites show the inherent prime lens performance to be quite good, with little in camera correction used (compare that to a Sony mirror-less, (which I've owned), which uses huge amounts of in camera work to get nice looking JPG's; it was an exercise in frustration shooting in RAW because so much work was needed to fix for the lens issues). Technically, from the same company as my Pentax stuff, so I'm staying brand consistent (one particularly nice thing about the GR is the user interface, which is a lot less dumb and weird than most small cameras, according to Lloyd Chambers, who is one OCD picky guy... sort of like me...

                                                                  Have pretty much gotten all the needed special clothes in, too, including merino wool long undies, and ordered a couple of pairs of Columbia ski pants that should be in today or tomorrow. That SHOULD be the last of it...

                                                                  Hopefully I'll be able to do some post about the preparations in the photography section before we leave. But while we're gone and on the ship, we'll be incommunicado- in principle, ship board data plans are available, but they are breath taking in their cost per MB. Just not feasible.
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • oneplustwo
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Jan 2010
                                                                    • 666

                                                                    Sorry about the pup. Sounds like he didn't suffer much though and had great luck to have been adopted by your GF in the first place!

                                                                    Excited to see your photos from the new 645 hotness! I'm in the market for a new SLR but the new Canon 50MP 5DSr doesn't really excite me. I would have preferred better dynamic range and clean high ISO so I need to wait for the 5D4 hopefully later this year. Or jump ship to Nikon although I don't really want to go through the hassle/loss of trading all the glass.

                                                                    Coincidentally, I am also interested in the Ricoh GR. I'm thinking there may be an update later this year on that as well so I'm holding off for the moment. I also considered the Sony RX100M3 but I'm having a hard time with the image quality compromise.
                                                                    Zaph SR-71
                                                                    Zaph ZDT 3.5
                                                                    Sunflower Redux
                                                                    12" Dayton HF sub
                                                                    CJD RS 150 MT
                                                                    Revelator bookshelf
                                                                    2x12 Guitar cab
                                                                    Corner loaded line array

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15308

                                                                      I found a good deal on the limited edition GR so I went for that- kind of cool looking, in a quasi-retro way. And I need it NOW- well, this week... :B Be interesting to see what an update to it would look like- it has been a couple of years...

                                                                      Have you been a Canon user a long time?

                                                                      I've been reading about that new Canon, too, and it just seems at first blush like maybe they dropped the ball on this one- about the same dynamic range and overall sensor performance (apart from resolution) as the 5D MkIII. Which, at first glance, might seem a win, as getting a lot more pixels but not having worse dynamic range is a good thing... sort of... unless the competition is doing better.

                                                                      BUT, from tests I've seen, the 5D MkIII, besides lacking about 2 stops of dynamic range compared with the Nikon 810e has issues with pattern noise in the sensor, well documented ones- this makes the usable dynamic range even poorer, even at low ISO. I like some of the Canon glass, and I'd gotten my daughter several Canon's in past years, though now we have her and her fiancƩ on Sony, and they're quite happy for what they want to do.

                                                                      Obviously, the Holy grail would be a FF 35mm with 50MPx and dynamic range like the 810, which is running very close (about a half stop) to the 645z. My GF shoots Nikon, and has a D600 and one of their big VR telephotos, plus now a D200 picked up cheap on Fleabay to be a backup for this trip. Now she's got a total of three Nikon cameras, all with different batteries, all with considerably different user interfaces, and every now and then I catch her glancing over at my four Pentax's, two 35mm and two medium format, all of which use the same battery, and have very similar and direct user interfaces- I'm never confused moving between them. For a simple guy like me, that's a big plus.

                                                                      As 3/4 of my Pentax 35 mm lenses are full frame, higher end parts from the film era, I'm really curious to see how their recently previewed 35mm FF camera looks- got a while to wait, won't be until the end of the year. And I expect it will use another pretty good Sony sensor.... hope it has a good live view like the 645z- that would be really good with the 200mm macro I picked up last year.
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                                                                      • oneplustwo
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Jan 2010
                                                                        • 666

                                                                        I've been a Canon user since my first film SLR sometime around 1997... the Elan 7e, e for eye-tracking. A semi useful tool for tracking the focus point based on where your eye was pointed. Then went digital from 10D to 20D to 1D mark ii to 5D mark i to my current 5D mark ii. The last two cameras were inherited from my father in law (more a camera collector than photographer) and he has the mark iii that I don't think he's going to upgrade from so I guess I need to buy my own camera this time. =) To your point, not happy with the 5DS specs so I'll probably wait. If the 5D4 is also disappointing, I will have to seriously consider moving to Nikon. Or perhaps Sony.

                                                                        My glass used to revolve around the Canon L stuff. 24-70 2.8, 24-105 4.0 IS, 70-200 2.8 IS II, 135 2.0. I also still have my first lens, the nifty fifty, plastic wonder, 50 1.8. A few other primes like the 85 1.8 and 40mm pancake. Many of them have been sold (some for more than I paid for them) and some have been gifted to family in the recent past with the rise of Sigma's Art line. I have both the 35 and 50 along with their slightly older 85. Those three plus the 70-200 are all I really need. I love the 135 still, but it's a bit long for regular use. They're all big and heavy, but the sharpness and contrast in particular are addicting.

                                                                        And... I ended up ordering a Sigma DP2 Merrill last night. I had a brief "JonMarshian" moment and pulled the trigger after being wowed by the image quality and convincing myself that the issues it has are not a big deal since I also have the SLR has my primary camera. Looking forward to giving it a try.
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                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15308

                                                                          I bet you'll enjoy the DP2- I have a DP2 and DP3. Under the right conditions, it can produce pictures way out of their size and price range. What's tricky is getting good results in low light conditions- forget high ISO, it takes tripod and long exposures. I took the 50mm to England two years ago and it was a great walking around came, just a little bigger in the lens than was really convenient. I think/hope the GR will be better suited to situations for informal pics requiring higher ISO settings. And the lens in the Rico is pretty dang good considering how it looks- no one would think looking at it that there's a fairly high performance prime and an ASPC size sensor!

                                                                          The Merrill is great for outdoors stuff with good light- my only suggestion is if you don't like the DP2 all that much, try a DP3. :W


                                                                          This sample photo from Sigma at 4 seconds of the Charles Bridge in Prague (I have some pictures taken of that bridge with my 645D, but not at night) shows what can be done with a careful 4 second exposure. Warning: big file (for a jpeg)

                                                                          Image not available
                                                                          Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 15:34 Monday. Reason: Update image location
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                                                                          • oneplustwo
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Jan 2010
                                                                            • 666

                                                                            Looks great! The lights render really nicely! Perhaps some luminance noise in the sky but not terribly objectionable. What's your workflow? SPP to 16 bit TIFF to Lightroom?

                                                                            Are there any speakers in the photo?
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                                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 15308

                                                                              Originally posted by oneplustwo

                                                                              Are there any speakers in the photo?
                                                                              If there are, I can't see them!

                                                                              My normal work flow is RAW to Lightroom, with occasional plugins for noise or other effects, then output in sRGB 8 bit JPG for normal folks and monitors and on browsers, or or AdobeRGB; occasionally AdobeRGB in 16 bit Tiff; but USUALLY I print direct from Lightroom, using ICC profiles for my printer and paper, (Epson R3880 and Red River papers of various types, especially their polar metallic and satin) and adjusting from Lightroom as needed. I don't go into Photoshop very often, unless there's something weird I want to do; I'm more an as shot kind of guy than a major post processing type, though a friend of mine who shoots fine art photography for a living has recommended one guy's site's tutorials to me that I may look into after we get back form the way down under, depending on what I'm bringing back in RAW material! :B

                                                                              Check it out...



                                                                              The Ricoh and battery charger and extra battery came in yesterday; SDHC card should make it today! Gotta pack this weekend, mostly, because I friend of the GF is coming in to town the end of next week, to spend a few days. And that room is the one filled with unpacked clothes and gear!
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                                                                              • dwk
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Apr 2005
                                                                                • 251

                                                                                I have a DP3M as well, although I think I'm getting ready to sell it - I'm still learning/training myself in photo in many respects, and I find that shifting between systems doesn't work well for me. I found the camera quite usable - just treat it as a teeny-tiny view camera and you'll get along just fine. I just set it to ISO 100 and A mode, and as long as you take some care in where you're metering it does a good job. The workflow using SPP is a bit clunky, though. My primary complaint is that I really wish there was a remote-release option since you're likely to be using a tripod or other stabilization anyway. Apparently the new Quattros offer it, but on the Merrills your only option to avoid shake is to use a 2-second delay.

                                                                                As much as I understand the lust around full frame and the 645, I chose convenience over absolute quality and went with an m43 system. I'm generally happy with it, and seeing some folks with their big Canikon rigs during our Costa Rica trip reinforced my feeling that I just don't want to carry that much gear around. You just have to accept the limitations, and understand that you may need to resort to stitching and/or HDR in some cases where you want better results than the smaller sensor can provide in a single shot (and obviously this isn't possible in all cases).
                                                                                In a somewhat interesting/unexpected move Olympus has just announced the MkII version of my camera in which they include a sensor-shift based hi-res mode (40Mp jpeg or 64Mp raw) similar to what some Hasselblad studio cameras do - it moves the sensor by 0.5 and 1 pixel increments and takes 8 total frames via an electronic shutter. In theory, the 4 1-pixel shifts should provide the ability to measure each color at each location of the original sensor location, giving the same type of full-color data that makes the Foveon so interesting. The jury is still a bit out on how useful it will be in the real-world since it is obviously tripod-only and doesn't handle motion well at all, but static studio shots seem to indicate that it matches the D810 more or less in resolution. Certainly very interesting for studio macro work, and I'm hoping that it's robust enough to work for at least some types of landscape use.

                                                                                Oh, and enjoy the trip, Jon. I bet it's going to be spectacular - it's one I'd love to do someday, but I don't think it'll ever make the cut since there are several others queued up ahead of it.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • oneplustwo
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Jan 2010
                                                                                  • 666

                                                                                  I may be in the market for a DP3M if all goes well with the DP2. =) Let me know if you end up wanting to pull the trigger.

                                                                                  To your point, you could get each of the DP cameras and still have less "stuff" than a full size SLR and one largish lens. No dust issues. A little less flexibility but arguably balanced by motivation to have better shot discipline. Other pros as well as cons for sure, but an interesting debate nevertheless.

                                                                                  Perhaps we need a camera thread much like my guitar thread before the moderators shut us down. I'll start one when my sigma arrives unless someone else has something to share.
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                                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                                    • 15308

                                                                                    I'll see about splitting these last few posts off into a new thread in the Photography section. BTW, a good alternative for the Sigma Foveon cameras is Iridient Digital; they also have a very good renderer for the newer Fuji cameras with the weird layout sensor.



                                                                                    What they don't have is a library chock full of lens library fixes. So, you can't get automatic geometric fixes for what I look at as "standard" Pentax medium format lenses, (particularly wide angle, where it's needed) which Lightroom does offer. So, for the Sigma, I do use Iridient. Not nearly the same kind of workflow management, but it's a good developer.

                                                                                    Cloudy Day, reduced size and compressed by Photo-Bucket, taken in Munich in the winter, you'll just have to imagine what the original image looks like on a Cine 4K screen like the new LG I have, in Adobe 1998. That DP3M is a very good little camera... under the right circumstances.

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                                                                                    I could upload the original to Dropbox and send a link to those interested. You can read the small print on the CD's on the music stand. BUT, even shot at ISO 200, it's starting to show color noise in the green channel; it mostly goes away if you down rez the pic by half, but I was doing hand held, and this gave about 1/600 shutter time; I should have stayed with ISO100. That's really the only setting to use with the Merrills. Just like I don't normally shoot my 645D at ISO400. What's amazing is that 100 or 400 is essentially the same on the 645z; and if you're going to down res, ISO3200 is very usable.


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                                                                                    Last edited by theSven; 25 June 2023, 20:39 Sunday. Reason: Update text
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                                                                                    • dar47
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Nov 2008
                                                                                      • 876

                                                                                      Well, Jon I hope this measurement is correct for felt effects?

                                                                                      Did one measurement with speaker in the listening position and this one out in the room. Gated 3.2m and smoothed 1/48. I may have taken just a little to much off but I'm sure liking the effect of the felt I think it was worth the effort of making the grill this way. Interesting that my measurements show putting the felt bevel towards the tweeter similar to Avalon gives a better response. Ben is going to try a smaller diameter on his to compare. Not sure if you posted yours but would be nice to compare.

                                                                                      Click image for larger version

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Views:	110
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ID:	934579
                                                                                      Last edited by theSven; 01 May 2023, 15:32 Monday. Reason: Update image location

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                                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                                        • 15308

                                                                                        Could you post pictures of the differences in construction- you know, pictures are worth a thousand words.

                                                                                        We've got GF's niece coming in Thursday night for a long weekend, and still working on packing and prep- (leaving on the 27th) so I can't setup and do correlation measurements until after I get back- (even then, have a medical procedure scheduled which will knock a hole in the free time schedule). But let's see what we can do in terms of detailed follow up. It's looking pretty fair with what you're doing so far, I can switch to minimal smoothing measurements, too, though I think it might be worthwhile to average measurements on and off axis.
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                                                                                        • dar47
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Nov 2008
                                                                                          • 876

                                                                                          okay, that's not nice on the 01 Wavecors disappearance so fast when we have eager Ardent builders ready to take the plunge. I know the rubber surround was changed for more excursion and they claim better performance but in our case are they? Jon what would be the xover change needed if any and does the performance suffer any?

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                                                                                          • Wayman
                                                                                            Member
                                                                                            • May 2014
                                                                                            • 89

                                                                                            I'm finally making some sawdust!

                                                                                            I don't recall reading what you did for damping? Is it done differently in a closed box?

                                                                                            thanks, Wayne

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