Subwoofers? SVS vs. HSU vs. Definitive????Help.

[Rolyasm]

Thanks in advance for any reply.
I am building a didicated home theatre room. Dimensions are 18x23. I want to get some clean, deep sound coming from my sub, or subs, and I know after reading all the forums there is a lot to say, especially about SVS and HSU. Ultimate Electronics has a Definitive Tech. Supercube that sounds nice, around $1,200. For the same price I can get a SVS PC Ultra, and for less money the HSU VTF-3. Thought about getting the SVS and the HSU and either keeping them both, or sending back the one I didn't like as much. I really don't care if I get a box or a cylinder, though I actually like the looks of the cylinder. Maybe I am trying to compensate for something. I wrote SVS and HSU and basically told them I wanted them to compare their own sub against the other brand. No response yet. Think they fear I will post it or something. Any suggestions would be very appreciated, or any links you have to good, solid facts about each sub.
Rolyasm (Matt) 8O

[Shane Martin]

Generally if you don't want the big box which an SVS is or the Tube which some don't like, then the HSU is the choice. The Definitive everytime I've heard it I've yet to be impressed.

So its down to the HSU vs SVS IMHO. If you can get away with the larger box or Tube then the SVS should put out MORE bass. SVS will tout its output while HSU will tout its size. That alone tells you enough. I don't believe a HSU will put out the same level of bass as a comparable SVS.

I was pretty much set to go with a PB2 Ultra but money issues came about and I decided to wait. Now I'm getting other feedback from the SO regarding a tube and I'm leaning towards going with 2 PC ULtras due to the size of my room. Your room is fairly LARGE so I'd go with the PC Ultra or the PB2+. Both would easily outgun the HSU alternatives. The Ultra trades off output in the comman bass region(25 hz) for lower bass.

If anything email SVS and see what they'll recommend. They won't oversell you.

[David Meek]

Hi Matt, welcome to The Guide. :welcome:

Have you considered building your own sub? We have some of the best DIY'ers around here in our Mission Possible DIY forum. With their knowledge and assistance you can build a sub (tube or box) that'll perform with any of the ones you are looking at and be a bit less costly.

However, if you don't want to get involved with a pile of sawdust and solder, I recommend the SVS's based primarily on "boom for the buck". You are trying to pressurize a fairly large room and that requires a sub able to move lots of air which means size/volume. Size and value pretty much equal an SVS unit (or units) - especially if you like the tube style. They are well built and produce good quality bass. PM our own Chris D if you want more detail - he's a new dual SVS owner.

Now having said all that, the Hsu's are worthwhile also. You may find they give you just the sound you are looking for (over the SVS's) and IMO they are a close second to the SVS's as far as quality for cost goes.

Best of luck, and keep us posted....

Oh FWIW, I'm not an SVS or Hsu owner (Velodyne FSR-15) so this isn't an infomercial. :

[spiffnme]

If I were building a dedicated theatre, I'd not hesitate for a second to get the 1220HO tube from Hsu. Maybe even duals.

[Rolyasm]

Okay, so what about the option of buying the SVS Ultra and the VTF-3, or comparable? Would that give me different sounds and different frequencies so I don't miss any level of bass? I have heard that HSU is perhaps crisper or has better tone, while SVS is a monster at deep, loud bass. Would it be good to get one of each, or just to stick with duals from the same company? David Meek, how do I PM Chris D, and what does PM mean? Thanks again everyone. Lots to consider.
Rolyasm (Matt)

Oh, and I don't want to build my own. I am not a big do-it-yourselfer. Probably end up building a toaster or washing machine instead of a sub. Ha.

[spiffnme]

I'd stick with two from the same company if you decide on two.

[Andrew Pratt]

I would give serious thought to buying a KILIMANJARO from Acoustic Visions if you have the budget to do so. Its a nice sized sub and will walk all over any of the ones you've posted about. This is essentially what I built recently only mines being powered with an external amp. I've owned all sorts of sub's using 10, 12 and 15" drivers but this Tumult easly surpasses anything I've owned before. Its not just the output either although that's impressive, its the clean sound that gets your attention. Simply put it never sounds strained no matter what I ask it to do.

[jimmyp58]

Earthquake also makes killer subs that have received rave reviews at reasonable prices.

Jim

[Rolyasm]

What do you people think about the above Kilimanjaro? Does it really whoop on the SVS Ultra and HSU VTF3? Cost is $1,500.
Rolyasm

[spiffnme]

I guess it should be noted that Axiom just released two new subs. The EP500 and EP600. Audioholics called them the "product of the year". The specs are mighty impressive, but they've just recently been released so there's not much known about them yet.

[jimmyp58]

I couldn't say if the Kilimanjaro would whoop any sub but then again I couldn't say any sub would whoop the Kilimanjaro. Room setup, acoustical treatments, personal preferences, etc. all play a huge factor. Honestly, I used to use the Def Tech SuperCube Reference and while I owned it I thought it would kick any other sub's butt, I have now found out that I like the way my new VMPS sub sounds.

Jim

[ThomasW]

What do you people think about the above Kilimanjaro? Does it really whoop on the SVS Ultra and HSU VTF3? Cost is $1,500.

The Adire 15" Tumult is a state of the art defining, high excursion, very low distortion driver. It's motor uses the patented XBL^2 technology that none of the other manufacturers discussed in this thread can offer. The driver's distortion is decreased by a factor of 2-3 times over that of a standard driver design.

The SVS and Hsu subs are using 12" drivers, so their output is limited by the radiating resistance of the smaller woofer size.

[Adz]

The SVS and Hsu subs are using 12" drivers, so their output is limited by the radiating resistance of the smaller woofer size.

Is that truly an accurate statement and is output from a 12" inch woofer always limited when compared against > 12" inch woofers? I bet SVS, especially with its highly touted B12/Plus 4, would serve up a strong response to challenge that statement in a heartbeat, no?

[ThomasW]

This thread is talking about some specific SVS and Hsu models that use a single 12" driver, so obviously the statement was made in that context.

If you want to talk about $2500 subs with multiple drivers (SVS B12/Plus 4) then one can certainly be more than competitive by adding additional Tumults.

FWIW, the drivers in the SVS B12/Plus 4 aren't SVS best drivers. The drivers used in the PB12-Ultra/2 are SVS's best drivers. And though very good drivers, they don't offer the low distortion available from XBL^2 technology.

Since the SVS drivers are made by TC-Sounds, my guess is that SVS will eventually adopt the new TC-Sounds LM (linear motor) technology. It's intended to be competitive with XBL^2.

If one wanted to lay waste to the largest SVS designs at a fraction the cost, it would only be necessary to purchase a pair of the Avalanche 18"s from Ascendant Audio. They cost only $399 ea and utilize Adire's XBL^2 technology. There's not much I'm aware of on the retail market that could keep up with a pair of those in a properly designed enclosure. But I suppose one could setup a couple Whise profunder 616's and get a little more output :wink:

Finally yes a 12" with a similar motor structure and Xmax to that of a larger driver, will always lose to the larger driver. Output is determined by how much air is displaced. So bigger always wins if the T/S characteristics are similar ... :T

[Adz]

Finally yes a 12" with a similar motor structure and Xmax to that of a larger driver, will always lose to the larger driver. Output is determined by how much air is displaced. So bigger always wins if the T/S characteristics are similar ... :T

I guess that makes sense. I'm not pushing SVS and I only heard one of their older models once, but they make som pretty (perhaps over the top) overly confident incredible claims (somewhat backed up by reviews) how their subs would smoke any 15 or 18 inch out there today, so I wonder how they compensate for not using (and why they don't use) larger drivers, since keeping everything else "constant"(those T/S characteristics), they would have an even better sub to market.

Out of curiosity, what would be the cost to build a pair of Avalanche 18"s into one properly designed enclosure or two separate?

[David Meek]

But I suppose one could setup a couple Whise profunder 616's and get a little more output :wink:

OMG 8O

That's a scary piece of work Thomas!!!!! 125 dB, 16 Hz to 150 Hz @ +/- 3 dB, 1.3% THD, 505 lbs. I want one.... :T

Okay, back on topic.

[ThomasW]

Adz,

In the world of retail audio it's all about marketing. So yes there certainly some 12" drivers that will out perform certain larger drivers, if the playing field isn't level. Marketing types don't like to make apples vs apples comparisons. So they make apples vs oranges comparisons to blur reality, and make sales... :wink:

When one looks at 'like' designed drivers, bigger always wins. It's basically just the physics of moving air. The greater the amount of air moved, the louder the sound.

RE: dual the Avalanche 18"s, figure $800+ shipping for the drivers, and whatever the cab costs. That could be as low as just $200 bucks for a painted DIY cab made from MDF, to a couple thousand if one's desire's run toward fancy veneer over Baltic ply. If the goal is to have the smallest cabinet possible then factor in the cost of probably 6-18" PR's.

David,

Come on, let's get a pair of those drop shipped to your place for a party .... :yeah:

[Neal_C]

I will just say that you can't go wrong with SVS. I currently own a PB12-Plus/2 which used to be just PB2+. Before it I had one of their passive cylinders.

In my 18x21 living room setup with openings to a hall on one side and kitchen on the other, I only have to set the gain at 33% to achieve more than enough output and shake the mirror in my master bathroom. Needless to say, I have plenty of headroom should I ever need it.

[Rolyasm]

Hi Matt, welcome to The Guide. :welcome:

Have you considered building your own sub? We have some of the best DIY'ers around here in our Mission Possible DIY forum. With their knowledge and assistance you can build a sub (tube or box) that'll perform with any of the ones you are looking at and be a bit less costly.

Okay, so I now I hear building a sub might not be that hard to do. Since I am still a little confused about which sub to go with, SVS or HSU (Definitive is bye bye), perhaps I will look into building a sub. Could I build a really good sub for under $1,000? $700? Would these subs be as good as the SVS cylinder PCUltra, which I think I am leaning towards? What does DIY mean? I looked in the forum and don't think I would have enough info to build my own sub. Would I need a bunch of tools, or can you buy the wood precut and just glue them together? So many questions. Sorry.
Rolyasm

[jimmyp58]

Have you considered any of the subs from Earthquake?

Jim

[ThomasW]

In audio there is nothing easier to build than a subwoofer.

You would need acess to some power tools. Table saw is nice but not mandatory. Many people build with a hand held circular saw. The die-hards have actually use just a jigsaw (not recommended though)

A router and circle cutting jig is necessary if you want to build a tube sub.

Of course one needs electric drill, and other hand tools.

Although not a complete tutorial look at one of my DIY designs. This sub cost well under $500 to build. And can shake my entire 2500 sq ft brick house when driven by a fairly large amp.

I'll add this link to Tube-Zilla. It's performs as it's name implies, it's a monster. (gee I hope Noel Lee's lawyers don't sue me for using the word 'monster') Nothing other than dual 18"s can touch it ..... :T

[Rolyasm]

Have not considered any subs from Earthquake. Open to anything though. What would you recommend.
Thomas: checked out the Tube Zilla, looks like fun. How much am I looking to spend for the sub, and what kind of performance will these subs perform at? If I will only save a hundred bucks or so, I would prefer a professional to build my sub. If it is more along the lines of 50% savings, I might jump on the DIY train.
Rolyasm

[jimmyp58]

A lot of guys like the MKV12 or MKV15 (the number designates the woofer size). They have a variety of finishes and the higher quality finish means the price goes up slightly --- otherwise the guts are the same.

[Andrew Pratt]

Rolyasm performance is one thing you normally don't have to worry about with the DIY models providing you use a smart design (meaning its not just sticking any old driver in a box!) So long as you use a quality driver and put it into a suitable box you've got nothing to worry about...except maybe the plaster on the walls

[ThomasW]

Matt,

Tube-zilla contains a pair of BP1503's. If still available they're $240 each (excluding shipping) from Kyle at Acoustic-Visions. They were the original low buck high excursion drivers. They are not quite as sophisticated as the much more expensive Tumult ($499) or the slightly more expensive the Avalanche 15"s ($330).

The total cost for materials other than the drivers, was $150 or so. (sonotube, MDF, paint and a little bit of carpet is cheap :B )

Like any design where BIG drivers are crammed into a relatively small sealed enclosure, Tube-Zilla is hungery. So feed it with something like a Behringer EP-2500

Anything purchased at retail in comparison to Tube-Zilla would cost no less than $2.5K

[johnjohn]

Hsu Research has some wicked new prototypes, VTF-3HO and VTF-2HO.

Pics n stuff here:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1374

[David Meek]

What does DIY mean?

Do It Yourself.

[BlazeMaster]

I think a PB12plus/2 will fill up his room of 18x23 effortlessly. My room is even bigger than that and the plus/2 is plenty for me with the gain set at 1/3 of the way up. You can also get a PB12ultra/2 if you want cleaner output, but it's going to be a little bit over the $1500 budget.

[mattburk]

I wanted to revive this thread from the dead.
I am trying to find the best sub for under 1.5k. I am considering the axiom ep500, KILIMANJARO, or maybe a svs ultra.

[PewterTA]

Kilimanjaro or the SVS Ultra are your best bet.

Though I think the SVS PB12-Plus/2 would be a better choice if going SVS.

[Shane Martin]

I would go this route:

Either A) The DIY route.
B) the PB12/2 Plus SVS
C) Save up a bit more and consider the Axiom EP600. Supposedly a monster poerformer.

to be truthful, the kilimanjaro doesn't do much for me.

[Rolyasm]

Glad to see my thread came alive, just for Halloween. To update you I did the DIY route. I am still in the process since it took my contractor almost 11 months to build my house, instead of the 6-9 promised. Anyway, the HT is ready for sound and equipment. I put 4- 15 inch Avalanches under my riser. See the DIY forum "Underfloor sub" to read. Thanks for all the help and support.
Roly