DIY digital music system

[Paul Ebert]

As those who've been following the Ardent thread (is there anyone who isn't?) know, there's been a bit of a discussion of vinyl and digital sources. Jon piqued my interest with the following:

"especially now that both turnkey and DIY digital music systems with HD storage are fairly accessible- I wouldn't want to give up mine, it makes CD access look like dealing with vinyl in comparison!"

He then went on to suggest a thread be started over at the Audio Hideout. Well, that's cool, but I would want to DIY (as in system integration) and I'm comfortable being an absolute noob here :T

So, if one wanted to make an inexpensive, high-value DIY digital music system, what would you recommend? I'm talking hardware, software, the whole shebang.

I'll kick it off with some fundamental questions: would this approach be better bang for the buck (sound quality-wise) than a good, but cheap CD player / DAC and would an older PC be adequate?

[ThomasW]

You don't need a stand-alone CDP, all that's needed is a PC with a CD-DVD ROM and a DAC with an input that's compatible with the computer's soundcard out.

I'm getting ready to do something similar but will use a NAS based server.

Twonky is a program I'm considering using, others use Mediamonkey or iTunes

[bemis23]

It's not going to matter in terms of physical source. Your best option is to look into a quality soundcard (SoundBlaster Audigy line would be ok, but there are better options from Turtle Beach and M-Audio).

I may be a noob at actually building speakers - but HTPC is my particular area of specialty - I've been developing these systems for friends and clients for many years.

What's your budget? What are the space requirements?

There are two basic ways to run an integrated system:

1) All in one HTPC - These typically require a slightly larger case and tend to look more like a PC.
2) Front-end/back-end - This is a two part system. The front-end can be something as simple as PS3, or it can be as complex as a custom-designed front end capable of processing 1080p h.264 video in a streamline case designed to resemble audio components. The back end is nothing more than a NAS and file-server (network attached storage). The biggest advantage here is that you can use high-efficiency drives in larger form factors to maximize your storage space and keep the noise at a minimum by hiding the NAS in a closest or office.

The software is all basically the same. I recommend running a Linux install rather than Windows - especially if you are not using a commercial pre-made NAS for stability. The GUI front end can be as pretty and easy to use as you wish. Hybrid systems using a Linux back end and Windows front end are also pretty easy to implement if you are concerned about learning a new interface. I use MediaTomb as my back-end file-server and route everything through my PS3 which acts as my front end. Regardless of the design that you decide on - and there are MANY decisions and compromises to make (especially in terms of power efficiency, heat, and power).

The All-in-one HTPC will be the cheaper system for sure, but finding a place to put it can be a pain, and depending on performance requirements (and if you're not dealing with video, the whole system can be had much cheaper and you may be able to do some higher-end upgrades and stay within budget). Feel free to send me a PM and I can cover the details. It can be a bit long winded to run through all of the design options in a single forum post. If you want you can also drop me a line at tlurton at gmail dot com.

[Face]

You need lots of HD space, software such as Foobar, a sound card with a digital coax/optical out, and an external DAC. It's not hard at all.

[Dennis H]

Squeezebox Duet.

http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-duet.html

[Paul Ebert]

Ok, here I demonstrate the extent of my noobness. HTPC = home theater PC? And, why do I need a DAC if I get a good soundcard? Alternatively, could I get a USB based DAC and forego the soundcard?

I don't really know enough to have a budget yet. Could a 'starter system' be put together for a few hundred bucks and a spare PC?

Lastly, for this post, are there alternatives to iTunes as a lossless content vendor (not sure of the terminology here)? Not that I mind iTunes, but...

[bemis23]

The standard lossless format is .flac and finding the content you want legally in .flac format can be difficult and expensive.

[Paul Ebert]

I thought the iTunes format was lossless. Is that .flac or am I incorrect?

[chasw98]

I am currently running and have been for over 6 or 7 years a remote controlled (WAF factor) windows Vista Media Center front end and Linux storage back end. I have tried and used over 8 diffferent front ends through the years. I am currently at 6 TB's and counting. I store mostly FLAC and a couple of wav, the occassional high bitrate MP3 temporarily until changed over to wav or flac. It also holds 2 TB's dedicated to Blu Ray rips, a lot dedicated to uncompressed DVD rips with all the audio impressed upon the HDMI output and all decoded in the Onkyo PR-SC885. Serious Hi Rez is still played maually on the Lexicon player.

IMHO, the trick for a music server is to concentrate on all audio of the highest resolution possible, the ability to build playlists on the fly as you search through albums or songs, and then display something on a video monitor like album covers, song lists, etc. so that you know what you are doing with the server. I definitley subscribe to the 2 part (seperate front end and storage) theory in building one of these. And yes, integrated remote control is essential.

I have never seen any audio oriented testing of digital outputs from motherboards in order to make a wise selection. Pro audio cards can and will run above $1,000 if you go for the really good stuff.

And it almost makes a lot of sense to do all your ripping and prepping of source material on a third computer to store on the servers so the front end does nothing but access material. That way the front end is built lean and mean to run the very basic software needed to access and playback the material and do nothing else. No anti virus, no games, no Office suite, just a front end to select your organized music and play it. Just some of my thoughts.

Chuck

[chasw98]

Squeezebox Duet.

http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/pr...ebox-duet.html

Pshaw, Dennis... Everybody was using the Logitech Transporter at RMAF last year!

[Licinius]

Squeezebox classic & FLAC ftw... you can always hook it to your own DAC also. There is a killer iphone app called Peng to control squeezeboxes over wifi.... WELL worth the $10. Alas I dropped mine into a lake and everything BUT the wifi works now .

[bemis23]

I am currently running and have been for over 6 or 7 years a remote controlled (WAF factor) windows Vista Media Center front end and Linux storage back end. I have tried and used over 8 diffferent front ends through the years. I am currently at 6 TB's and counting. I store mostly FLAC and a couple of wav, the occassional high bitrate MP3 temporarily until changed over to wav or flac. It also holds 2 TB's dedicated to Blu Ray rips, a lot dedicated to uncompressed DVD rips with all the audio impressed upon the HDMI output and all decoded in the Onkyo PR-SC885. Serious Hi Rez is still played maually on the Lexicon player.

IMHO, the trick for a music server is to concentrate on all audio of the highest resolution possible, the ability to build playlists on the fly as you search through albums or songs, and then display something on a video monitor like album covers, song lists, etc. so that you know what you are doing with the server. I definitley subscribe to the 2 part (seperate front end and storage) theory in building one of these. And yes, integrated remote control is essential.

I have never seen any audio oriented testing of digital outputs from motherboards in order to make a wise selection. Pro audio cards can and will run above $1,000 if you go for the really good stuff.

And it almost makes a lot of sense to do all your ripping and prepping of source material on a third computer to store on the servers so the front end does nothing but access material. That way the front end is built lean and mean to run the very basic software needed to access and playback the material and do nothing else. No anti virus, no games, no Office suite, just a front end to select your organized music and play it. Just some of my thoughts.

Chuck

This is the single best way to run an all digital system IMHO.

FWIW: The digital audio out from the motherboard isn't going to make a big difference in the audio quality - I doubt it'd even be audible if there are any differencesgiven that the entire data stream is digital and not analog. The difference between on-board and third-party or stand-alone solution boils down to connection flexibility, features, and processing. This carries an additional benefit - you don't need a seperate DAC outside of your dedicated electronics.

[bemis23]

I thought the iTunes format was lossless. Is that .flac or am I incorrect?

I haven't used iTunes in several years so I'm not sure. I was under the impression that the iTunes format was your standard 192kbps mp3 which is also available from a multitude of retailers.

[---k---]

I ran a home built HTPC for many years. It did music, tv, movies, everything. I got tired of having to maintain the patches, updates, hardware updates, etc. When it came time to upgrade to go HDTV, I said good bye to the big noisy box and hello Squeeze box. I'm very very happy with the squeeze (recently got a sqeeze Boom to move around the house with me too - thanks CJD!). The Squeeze Duet is very cool. CJD has one that I've played with and really liked.

I don't like that I still have to have a PC running the Squeeze backend, but it is a a good tradeoff. (A NAS running the squeeze server is an option.) The Squeeze box has a nice, easy to use interface and "just works". They are reasonably inexpensive. If you're a serious audiophile, use flac lossless encoding and then add a good DAC, and you have an excellent system.

Only do a PC system if you're a serious PC geek and enjoy messing with computers. This is coming from someone who a few years ago was running 6 computers each doing a single dedicated task (desktop, laptop, file server, web cache/proxy, backup, HTPC), just because he could.

Though, I have seen Chuck's system, and it is very nice.

[Licinius]

I thought the iTunes format was lossless. Is that .flac or am I incorrect?

There are several different lossless formats. FLAC is very popular, handled naively by certain audio players (like the Squeezebox) - it is also free and open source. Highly recommended. .flac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Lossless_Audio_Codec

Apple Lossless is another, by Apple, it is proprietary. .m4a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lossless Most files on the iTunes store are however, NOT lossless, in fact, I'm not sure there is any lossless music available on the iTunes store.

The usual iTunes (as in the application) uses AAC to rip in general, which is a lossy format similar to mp3.

[Licinius]

I don't like that I still have to have a PC running the Squeeze backend, but it is a a good tradeoff. (A NAS running the squeeze server is an option.)

This is what I do, I have a headless box running FreeNAS & Squeezecenter. Works pretty slick. I have itunes tied to it over the network, so whenever I buy anything, or rip any music, it goes right onto the server.

[Paul Ebert]

So, where or how does one buy music in .flac?

[littlesaint]

iTunes music is 256bit AAC, VBR encoded. Also, Apple Lossless is not a proprietary format. Any media player that supports the open source libavcodec (VLC, Mplayer, etc.) can playback Apple Lossless files.

[JonMarsh]

Many possible ways to go

Bravo Littlesaint!

I got tied up with some stuff and didn't have a chance to look at this thread until now.

iTunes supports both lossless formats, including their own Apple Lossless and AIFF, and lossy formats based on MP4 and MP3. Third party engines are available that punch up the playback capabilities with regards to high rez files.

BTW, online, HD Tracks is a good place to buy FLAC tracks, at a variety of resolutions, including 44.1/24, 88.2/24, 96/24, etc. Linn audio and others sell HD files, as does HRx. The Computer Audiophile is a good site for background info and a variety of system configurations.

It's probably not a bad idea to pick the hardware platform and playback software that you like, then build hardware and rip music around what supports that, if you go DIY rather than turn-key.

There are built in audio cards like the original M-Audio 24/192 which I use in my Praxis PC that may provide fairly decent performance for a starter system. BUT, as getting the best performance out of CD seems to require some careful attention to a variety of factors including digital filters implemented, if you're pursuing something more than background music, you probably want to consider an external DAC. Another possibility is to use a semi-pro Firewire audio interface; then you can also do things like analog capture.

USB audio can be pretty decent with the right DAC (one with a good ASRC front end to reduce the effects of jitter, or one with Wavelength Audio's Asynchronous transfer protocol). It really all depends on what level of fidelity you're looking for and serious about. USB tends to be a bit limited right now on playback bit rate, especially for those supporting the Wavelength software approach for Asynch USB such as Ayre has licensed- (for the QB-9) 48KHz/24 bit being the current top end for that.

One technique to up the output quality and support conventional DACs is to use a high grade sound card such as the AES output from a Lynx card into the AES/SPDIF input of a good DAC. Some Firewire interfaces with high grade master clocks built in can also support this mode.

I'd say that a sensible approach may be to figure out roughly where you want to start with regards to plaform, and keep in mind that you can upgrade hardware as you go along and if your demands indicate it's needed to reach the quality level you want.


My own setup has been fairly simple, based around a Mac Mini, using Apple Lossless to rip CDs and converting downloaded FLAC files to AIFF using Max. The Mac Mini currently has a 320 GB drive with 2GB of RAM, but I have upgrades to install to take it to 750GB and 4GB of RAM; just haven't had time what with the Ardent project. I've been using this at home since around last February.

I also have Channel D "Pure Vinyl" software which supports analog ripping at up to 24/192, with a 64 bit data path for conversion and decimation to CD quality if desired; it also includes an upsampling engine that can be used with iTunes for playback of CD quality sources. I need more experience with that program before I'd want to comment publicly; I purchased it for single layer SACD capture at high PCM resolution through my Marantz SA-11.

I have been using a PS Audio DL-III DAC on USB with good results, but have recently acquired an RME Fireface 800 (FIrewire 800 interface with A/D and D/A at up to 24/192) with ADAT and AES/EBU output and input. I'm just getting my feet wet with that, so no comments yet. It will be used both with my workstation and in the playback system, I expect; it could be used as a complete audio interface, or even to provide a high quality AES/EBU digital output to the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC.

Currently there's about 200GB of music on the system, and a lot more waiting to be installed. In operation I find I listen to a lot more variety of music because it's so easy to get fast access. Sonically with the DL-III DAC it has been fairly satisfactory, better than my Sony SDC777ES SACD player, and better than a CD transport through the Benchmark DAC. Generally, I'd recommend using a DAC interface setup that allows electrical isolation between the Mac/PC and the audio system; that means having a digital connection such as SPDIF or AES/EBU that is actually using transformer coupling (most good DACs do on the input, and good transmitters do on the output). I hope to have it all optimized and sorted out to the next level by this Christmas, including integration of higher resolution audio sources.

A reminder to those working on Windows systems

For high fidelity bit perfect playback of the digital stream from CD sources, you have to disable the Windows K mixer, which resamples everything to 48 kHz and outputs audio based on that sample rate. You should be sure any hardware you're considering is supported by ASIO drivers if you want CD playback at 44.1 kHz sampling rate without sample rate conversion. Windows doesn't do a good job of sample rate conversion, and it's just another degradation in the chain. For background music, that may be acceptable to you, but for a quality music playback setup, it's something to consider. BTDT, my first HTPC build and music rips were Windows based.


If you use a USB interface for music, whether the standard format or the Wavelength style interface for USB DAC, setup instructions for both Windows based systems and Macs are on the Ayre site; it's recommended reading. If you consider USB, look for a DAC that has a fully isolated digital section with isolated drive to the D/A and analog output- many do, but not all do. John Atkinson of Stereophile has encountered obvious testing issues with low level signal performance when coupling computers to DACs without this type of isolation and having noise injection from the PC and ground loops. Another argument for NOT using a sound card output, I guess. Computers are noisy items.

BTW, computer audio can be fairly decent quality, even compared with PC's- my old iMac G5 used Wolfson DACs and sounded better than several CD players, including a Sony CD player, a Sony DVD player, and a $300 Marantz CD player (was doing some A/B testing with a work colleague who wanted to pick a low cost player, and was going on some published reviews about the best "value" players- goes to show that such reviews may not have much "value" sometimes.)

[chasw98]

Currently there's about 200GB of music on the system, and a lot more waiting to be installed. In operation I find I listen to a lot more variety of music because it's so easy to get fast access.

That is the number one factor for me! :T
I will jump around from funk to jazz to rock to classical and just build a playlist on the fly from more than 500+ albums and actually listen to them where I would not if I had to individually rotate them in and out of a player to do so.

A simple remote controlled hi rez based microprocessor system for audio only still remains a holy grail for me. I am enjoying this thread. Hopefully it can become the basis for a good playback system dedicated to audio. Thanks Paul!

[bemis23]

There are a handful of really good remote controls that use a simple IR interface that integrate well with an HTPC. One of the most frequently used is made by iMon:

iMon IR Remote Review

When combined with a bluetooth keyboard and mouse you can have full wireless control of any HTPC and the backend fileserver while you continue to sit on the couch with a beer :W

[chasw98]

There are a handful of really good remote controls that use a simple IR interface that integrate well with an HTPC. One of the most frequently used is made by iMon:

iMon IR Remote Review

When combined with a bluetooth keyboard and mouse you can have full wireless control of any HTPC and the backend fileserver while you continue to sit on the couch with a beer :W

Like this one?

[---k---]

I just tell my Squeeze box to play a random song from my whole collection. I get some pretty wild mix sometimes.

[bemis23]

Like this one?

Yeah i think it looks kinda similar :

[Licinius]

iTunes music is 256bit AAC, VBR encoded. Also, Apple Lossless is not a proprietary format. Any media player that supports the open source libavcodec (VLC, Mplayer, etc.) can playback Apple Lossless files.

Good info about the codec :T , but it still is a proprietary format, as in its specification is not open (like FLAC, or ogg, or misc others), it was reverse engineered to provide support in other players.

[littlesaint]

Good info about the codec :T , but it still is a proprietary format, as in its specification is not open (like FLAC, or ogg, or misc others), it was reverse engineered to provide support in other players.

I guess I'm playing semantics with "proprietary" but my point is you don't have to use an Apple product to take advantage of Apple Lossless. It also doesn't appear that Apple is enforcing their IP rights as it's present in number of commercial products.

[cjd]

A few tidbits about running the Squeeze stuff - first off, TRY IT - get the software and run the software squeezebox all on a PC. Their server runs on anything out there - I run a headless Ubuntu box (you can run it just fine on an Atom powered system - ~$300) configured with NoMachine so I can remote in to the full GUI desktop (not that I need that, but it's nice). I have 3 Squeezes so far - a Squeezebox 3, a Duet, and a Boom. I'll probably add another Duet or two. They sync - whole house audio is easy. OR you can un-sync them and play different stuff in different rooms. This also will hook you right up to a TON of the online streaming music services - Pandora, Shoutcast, etc. I run my SqueezeServer on an old Athlon 1100 I had sitting around.

I rip to FLAC - I run Rockbox on my gen1 iPod Nano. My wife shops on the iTunes store and copies the files over to our SqueezeServer music share, and it plays all that just fine also. So it's a very flexible system. We have a mix of Windows, Linux, and Mac systems in the house and they all hook up straight to the shared music drive (in fact, sharing the shared drive on Ubuntu worked for everything - I struggled and failed to get it shared on either the Mac OR Windows... some things, *nix is easier! )

Plus you can control it from any computer on your network or an iTouch or iPhone or whatever else you feel like using.

HTPC is not quite up to snuff for blu-ray playback though it's getting close. For the amount of time I spend watching movies vs the amount of time I spent fiddling with the HTPC (and that doesn't count trying to rip movies) I found it nowhere close to worth the time and effort. I Netflix 2 movies a week (that's 1 at a time but we get 2 a week... heh) and being able to drop the disc in and have it work is still the top priority, and my Panasonic BD player does that perfectly. Now, if the HTPC would enable moving subtitles on BD movies I'd be tempted! Half the 2.35:1 movies have one line into the black bars, and that means I can't use my full 2:35:1 screen.

[JonMarsh]

Well, Paul, look at the hornet's nest you stirred up! This should keep you busy reading, digesting, and thinking for quite a while! :W

There's been more activity in this area than I might have guess by our speaker building buddies!

BTW, I abandoned HTPC for video activities back around 2004 when the newer video chip de-interlace features (even in the Faroudja effort, which had it's flaws) leaped ahead of what was supported on the PC- since then, I always just check out the chip set performance used in players, check the Secretes of Home Theater and High Fidelity DVD benchmarks, and buy accordingly- huge differences among Blu-Ray players, as well as among the HD-DVD players (think HQV Realta derived video chip sets for de-interlacing and scaling, primarily, though the Panasonic BD was quite good (one in the bedroom), and the new Oppo BDP-83 has quite good digital video via it's Anchor Bay 2010 processor, though the analog output is fairly mediocre, unfortunately (good thing I have a decrypting HDMI/DVI interface for my NEC PG10 CRT rig).

[JoshK]

When it comes to DIY PC music servers there are thousands of ways to skin the cat, sort of speak. To me the ultimate question boils down to convenience of use and ease of interface. For others, its cost or customizeability.

After futzing around with the music server for a few years I broke down and bought a vortexbox appliance (vortexbox.org). Its really a very slick solution to the server side of the equation. Essentially zero futzing with the PC side of the equation and instead just use as directed.

From the VBA, I use Squeezeboxes in each room I want music (currently 3 SBs). Simple and easy, but not the rock bottom price one could build a solution for. (VBA was ~$360 and the SB's range in price, I paid ~$250/ea for my SB2s and SB3s.) You can pay less but you give up the ease.

[Saurav]

Back end: PC, music ripped to FLAC, currently using Asset UPnP server, I've played with many different server applications
Front end: ROKU into a DAC into my stereo

[Hdale85]

I use an media center style front end inside of linux called XBMC. It sound fantastic through my DAC and it's very easy to use. I use XBMC for movies and music and my wife uses it no problem. I have a media server that sits in the attic and currently has 6 1TB drives in it and is capable of holding up to 20 drives. The HTPC I built is extremely quiet have to be within a couple feet to hear the thing at all and even then it's really soft. All my music is ripped to FLAC. I use a Harmony One programmed as a MCE remote to control the whole setup and it works perfectly.

[---k---]

The upcoming Squeeze Touch looks pretty sweet. I haven't read much about it yet, but pretty pictures.











Such simplicity.

[stangbat]

Along the same lines as what Ryan was explaining, I also ditched the all in one HTPC idea. For music I now use a Squeezebox Classic with the back end running on my main desktop that is always on when I'm at home and awake. I ripped all my CDs to FLAC.

I have a dedicated PC hooked up to my TV and I mainly use it for Netflix Watch Instantly and Hulu. I occasionally use it to send music to the stereo via USB and I occasionally watch video from it via HDMI. I also use it for measurements and to generally fiddle around with and setup stuff. But I really don't use it as an all around HTPC.

I used to have a PC set up as a standard def DVR using BeyondTV. I researched setting up a PC as a HD DVR. But for the price, the HD DVR my cable company provides is worth it to me.

At one time I wanted to build an all purpose HTPC that would handle everything, but in the end it seemed like more time, money, and work than I wanted to put into it. Yes, it would be cool, and my current setup may sound like a piecemeal solution, but it actually does the job nicely. I have it all controlled by a single remote and it just works with minimal fussing and maintenance.

[Hdale85]

Well really you can build an HTPC solution that will do movies and music and everything else for ~300 bucks pretty easily. Doesn't have to be state of the art. But the Squeezebox is an excellent unit as well.

[chasw98]

Does anyone have any experience with the "J River Media Center"?

It looks like it will rip and tag flac files seamlessly and it appears that it can be operated by the Microsoft Media Center Remote for infrared control. It also appears to have many options for displaying a front end on a video screen to pick and choose music on the fly.

[JonMarsh]

Another 3rd party media center: Plex

I've been looking and playing with a 3rd party media center app called "Plex" (as in multi-plex?) It's Intel only, free (for now), in beta, no universal binary, but it does some cool stuff, including having a pretty well developed plug-in architecture. I don't know that I'd use the video features that much, but it's an option.


PLEX


Image not available

It has a nice interface that can be run with the standard Apple remote, the interface is skinnable,


Image not available

it has fairly rich video codec support and a good upscaler, AC3 pass through or transcoding, RAW support in the picture viewer, etc.

There are a variety of screen casts showing it in action.


Screencasts

[Hdale85]

Yeah Plex is very similar to XBMC in fact they share a lot of the same skins. From what I've heard Plex can still be a bit buggy though while XBMC works quite smoothly.

[heapatrouble]

There are a couple of interfaces that haven't been mentioned yet, as well as an option for soundcards.

Hulu and Boxee are both great. Boxee is nice as an all-in-one audio and video streaming solution.

Auzen makes very nice soundcards, some of which have swappabale op-amps if you want to change the sound. I have used an x-fi prelude which sounds great out of the box. Also, they have recently released an HD audio version which will do on-board decoding of lossless surround formats if you have an HTPC with a Bluray player.

[heapatrouble]

Additionally, the Asus Xonar HD is supposed to be a good solution.

[Dean100]

Have been using the Squeezebox Duet since it first came out. Use dbpoweramp to rip music to flac. Presently have about 450 albums in my
collection.

This is a relatively inexpensive way to get started with digital music. You will spend a fair amount of time ripping your CD's and getting your music organized. Once you have though, you will find yourself listening to stuff you may not have played in years.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah Plex is very similar to XBMC in fact they share a lot of the same skins. From what I've heard Plex can still be a bit buggy though while XBMC works quite smoothly.

I'll check it out.

[TacoD]

I use a linux (ubuntu studio) box + MPD + ipod touch as remote. Soundcard is Juli@ -> optical connected to a simple AD Labs NOS DAC (http://www.audiokit.ro/dac_rd3.html) For the money it sounds not bad at all.

Before I shelf 5K for a DAC I build a 15K DIY loudspeaker .

[JonMarsh]

I use a linux (ubuntu studio) box + MPD + ipod touch as remote. Soundcard is Juli@ -> optical connected to a simple AD Labs NOS DAC (http://www.audiokit.ro/dac_rd3.html) For the money it sounds not bad at all.

Before I shelf 5K for a DAC I build a 15K DIY loudspeaker .

There you go! I'm afraid to add up the total for the Ardents, though if I don't count the tools I bought it won't be too bad...

But I'm definitely getting the lovin' through the NeoD CC's... now, go figure- considering the distortion specs and everything else about a DAC versus a speaker, you'd think the DAC would hardly matter at all... but something is going on here with the issues with digital that, IMO, are just being resolved. But who the heck can afford a dCS Scarlatti or even a Spectral CDR-4000?

[TacoD]

I heard the Spectral CDR-4000, and a lot of other expensive digital gear. Some of them sound very good, but in the end the loudspeakers are most of the time the limiting factor.

I will wait till the innovations will trickle down to more affordable stuff.

[Hdale85]

I have to say I'm not sure how well XBMC works in OSX but I imagine pretty well, I know it works worst in windows haha as that's the newest port for it. It started out on the original Xbox and evolved hugely since then.

www.xbmc.org