The Benefits of Adding a Dedicated Outlet

[mfishmike]

Email for any questions

[ekkoville]

Thought I would ask a question before I add a dedicated outlet. With a two recepticle box, is the amp in one recepticle and a surge protector with the other equipment plugged into the other recepticle a good option? Just want to know if I should add a 20 amp breaker and two recepticle's or just one.

Erik

[brucek]

With a two recepticle box, is the amp in one recepticle and a surge protector with the other equipment plugged into the other recepticle a good option?

Erik,

I don't really understand your question too well.

If you feel a single 20 amp circuit is suffice for all your equipment, then run the single 20 amp cable to a single receptacle and that's it. From this single receptacle you will connect your power bar or whatever you have to plug all your equipment into.

If you require two 20 amp circuits, then be sure to use the same 'leg' at the service panel and run two separate 20 amp cables to two separate single receptacles.

Can you re-phrase the question?

brucek

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

brucek,
I think he wants to keep the amp off the surge protector, but on the same circuit.

Erik,
It’s perfectly fine to terminate your circuit to dual outlet devices in a two-receptacle box (a.k.a “quad box”). I did both of my circuits this way.

However, you could just as easily use one duplex outlet, which would accommodate both your amp and your surge protector.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

[brucek]

Ahhh OK.. I though he was talking about a whole-house surge protector and so it didn't make sense to me.

Erik - just as Wayne says, you can simply put in a single receptacle and plug your local surge protector in one outlet and amp (or power bar) into the other.....

brucek

[GRCRYSTYK]

mfishmike,...
Can you explain that 240 volt power supply and stabilizer recomendation again? I'm not quite sure I understand what your recomending,....

Thanks,..GRCRY,...>>>--->

[TimRawson]

Not sure it was explained. But I'm guessing run 240 because that'll put less current demands (heat) on the wiring then step it down to 120 closer to the load (ht equipment). Plus a step down xformer will likely have some regulators as well....

I think this similar to why power transmission lines are high voltage... more current over resistance (the long lines of running electricity to the country) is burning power. Up the voltage, the current drops, less loss.

Just remodeled my family room, DIY, and had been out of HT. Wanna kick myself for not renewing my HT/audio interest prior to doing so. Didn't even run 6th/7th channel! Doh! Do have multiple circuits though. Remembe in my previous home where I remodeled/finished the basement and the lights happen to be on the cloths washer circuit. The flicker when entering spin cycle...

[whoaru99]

brucek and or mfishmike,

you recommended running all dedicated circuits on the same leg. I know what you mean by that, but what is the benefit? I ran my two dedicated circuits into one double box with two receptacles via 12/3 wire (yes, I did pigtail the neutral/grounded wires and the grounding wires) and a common-trip double pole 20A breaker which, of course, uses both legs of the service, is this a problem?

[mfishmike]

email me

[Adz]

Question.
I installed 3- 20 amp dedicated circuits and was the starter of this thread.
Lately, one of the circuits which is only being used to run a 3 channel amp has been trippin' about once every 7-10 days consistently. But what is perhaps the strangest thing is that the circuit breaker trips when the amp is not on. I called my disappointing electrician and they checked the wire - no apparent problem, and even replaced the breaker but it still continued to happen. We have a lot of very smart people in this Forum -- any ideas on this one?

[DrJRapp]

A breaker that trips with no load on it indicates a short circuit somewhere between the panel and your wall device (socket). I suspect it is in the socket. The question I have is, do you use a power conditioner or surge protector of some sort? That could be the culpret also.

[jimmyp58]

I'd second the socket idea. Have you done any moving around of the amp, specifically the speaker leads (exposed copper strands) that might be shorting/tripping the circuit? How about at the far end....the speaker? Any moving around of the speaker, again, exposed copper touching a metal object that is feeding this back somehow?

Just some other thoughts.

Jim

[Paul H]

Adz,

You do have a short somewhere, and if your electrician is qualified to use the title "electrician", the circuit, breaker and outlet are not the problem once they've checked it.

Look for a short in the power cable for your amp, or where the power cable terminates inside the amp box.

Paul

[Adz]

Thanks guys. Definitely no moving around of the amp or speakers. I don't use a conditioner or surge protector of any sort for that amp on that circuit. I can play my system all weekend and nothing generally happens (although maybe once or twice it did trip with it on) but then I turn it off and its pretty much out of use for the week, and then I started to check the circuit breaker when I came home from work and byThursday/Friday its tripped.

I never thought about the wall socket. Could it be the ridiculously overly-expensive modded Acme Audio Silver Plated Cryogenic AC Outlet?

[Adz]

Adz,

You do have a short somewhere, and if your electrician is qualified to use the title "electrician", the circuit, breaker and outlet are not the problem once they've checked it.

Look for a short in the power cable for your amp, or where the power cable terminates inside the amp box.

Paul

Hey Paul,

Thanks. See my last post - could it be the modded outlet I purchased? The electrician definitely checked the wire all the way through and the circuit/breaker - he even plugged the wire in the amp box and hooked it to another circuit and it tripped that a week later. In terms of checking the actual outlet, he just put that little device in it to see if it was working and it was, but nothing else. It can't be the amp's power cable since I recall I unplugged it and it still tripped ( I believe I did that, but let me double check that one.)

[jimmyp58]

I certainly think it can be the modded outlet as a possibility.

[brucek]

Adz,

Thanks. See my last post - could it be the modded outlet I purchased? The electrician definitely checked the wire all the way through and the circuit/breaker - he even plugged the wire in the amp box and hooked it to another circuit and it tripped that a week later. In terms of checking the actual outlet, he just put that little device in it to see if it was working and it was, but nothing else. It can't be the amp's power cable since I recall I unplugged it and it still tripped ( I believe I did that, but let me double check that one.)

Since this is a dedicated circuit, it should be relatively easy to track down the problem.
A single breaker - a single length of electrical cable - a single receptacle outlet - one device plugged in.................. couldn't get much easier.

If the electrician replaced the breaker and checked the integrity of the wiring hookup at the receptacle with a quick tester, then save for an intermittent short in the circuit, it looks like it was installed correctly.

But, I'm afraid I have a lot of trouble understanding what you're saying in your post?

could it be the modded outlet I purchased? - What's modded about it? If you mean its silver plated and frozen at some point, I wouldn't suspect the receptacle unless it's obviously broken.

he even plugged the wire in the amp box - What's an amp box?

and hooked it to another circuit and it tripped that a week later - Wait a minute here! Are you saying you have a tripping circuit that follows an amplifier to any circuit it's plugged into? You've solved your problem, it's the amplifier........ :roll:

It can't be the amp's power cable since I recall I unplugged it and it still tripped - Better explain that, it contradicts the above statement. Do you mean to say nothing is plugged into the troublesome circuit and it still trips?

brucek

[Adz]

Adz,

SEE MY ANSWERS IN CAPS BELOW

Since this is a dedicated circuit, it should be relatively easy to track down the problem.
A single breaker - a single length of electrical cable - a single receptacle outlet - one device plugged in.................. couldn't get much easier.

If the electrician replaced the breaker and checked the integrity of the wiring hookup at the receptacle with a quick tester, then save for an intermittent short in the circuit, it looks like it was installed correctly.

AGREED

But, I'm afraid I have a lot of trouble understanding what you're saying in your post?

could it be the modded outlet I purchased? - What's modded about it? If you mean its silver plated and frozen at some point, I wouldn't suspect the receptacle unless it's obviously broken.

YES, IT's A WATT GATE GOLD CRYO'ED OUTLET. I WAS REACHING HERE THINKING if IT WAS MODDED POST-MANUFACTURE THAT IT MAY HAVE BEEN THE CULPRIT. THIS IS IT ----> http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/pdetail?v=1&pid=124


he even plugged the wire in the amp box - What's an amp box?

SORRY - I MEANT THE FUSE BOX ops:

and hooked it to another circuit and it tripped that a week later - Wait a minute here! Are you saying you have a tripping circuit that follows an amplifier to any circuit it's plugged into? You've solved your problem, it's the amplifier........ :roll:

THE ELECTRICIAN PUT IN A NEW CIRCUIT BREAKER AND ITS TRIPPING THAT.

It can't be the amp's power cable since I recall I unplugged it and it still tripped - Better explain that, it contradicts the above statement. Do you mean to say nothing is plugged into the troublesome circuit and it still trips?

CAN'T RECALL IF I EXACTLY DID THAT BUT I KNOW IT TRIPS WHEN THE AMP IS TURNED OFF COMPLETELY. I MEANT TO TEST THAT AGAIN AND USE A NEW CABLE.

IF ITS THE AMP - WHAT DO YOU THINK IS EXACTLY GOING ON?

brucek

THANKS

[brucek]

YES, IT's A WATT GATE GOLD CRYO'ED OUTLET Price: $147.95..................oh my. 8O

Anyway, we're still not on the same page here.

Before you go any further you must first establish whether you have a problem with your circuit or your amplifier.

Easily done.

TEST 1 = Plug that amplifier into a different outlet (other than the troublesome one) and leave it there. Plug nothing into the troublesome outlet. Wait until something happens.

TEST 2 = If nothing happens after a week or so, plug a device from your system (other than the amplifier in question) into the troublesome outlet. Wait until something happens.

Conclusions: If TEST 1 results in a tripping circuit breaker on the new circuit that the amplifier is plugged into, then you have a problem with that amplifier. If TEST 1 results in the original circuit tripping even with nothing plugged into it, you have an intermittent short in that circuit.
If TEST 2 results in the original circuit tripping with a new device plugged into it, even though it did not trip when the receptacle had nothing plugged into it, you've likely got a bad breaker and the electrician didn't actually change it.

You have to be methodical and keep a record of what you test so you can draw meaningful conclusions...... To track down any fault requires going in baby steps and not adding in too many variables...

Perhaps give this stuff a try and then get back... :T

brucek

[whoaru99]

I would also like to thank brucek and the other electrical wizards on this board. Now I have my two dedicated circuits re-wired so they are both on the same leg and with no funky isolated grounds or any funny stuff.

Plain ole' 12/2 with ground, 20A breakers, and four nice P&S 20A commercial grade duplex receptacles. Plain and simple, about $60 in materials, and a couple hours of time...

[Patt]

Adz,

.....Dedicated all the way! Now just enjoy the music...or movie, which ever the case may be. :T

[Adz]

Well this sordid story comes to an end. I brought in a new electrician from the top premiere company in my town and he spent some time walking around looking at the old job shaking his head continuously, and then he proceeded to dig up the buried wires which run outside along my house and found that one of them had started to burn through 8O and that was causing the breaker to sporadically trip and was getting progressively worse. He also found 3 other things wrong (1 of them not code) with the hook-up from the previous electrician.

So, I had him replace all the 12 gauge Romex wiring with 10 AWG heavy duty wiring, bury it outside in PVC tubing throughout and I ditched two of my three upgraded cryo'ed outlets and replaced them with two single receptacles which he said would be a "true" electrical upgrade and not some snake oil tweak. He also put the outlets in top of the line housing (basically he opened up a new section of the wall next to the old outlets and started from scratch). There's an expensive lesson to be learned here but I'm happy now. Here is the result; let me know what you all think:

[jimmyp58]

Ouch ADZ....

[Glen B]

Neat looking job although there's nothing top of the line about the receptacle housings. They are just regular 4-inch galvanized junction boxes. Since these J-boxes offer more room they are often used instead of standard receptacle boxes when installing GFCI receptacles -- results in a less cluttered, more workmanlike installation.

I disagree with the claim that a single receptacle is an upgrade over a duplex receptacle unless your electrician is referring to the integral surge protection which those singles appear to have. Each half of a 15A or 20A receptacle will carry the full rated current, with the total maximum draw restricted by the circuit breaker so a single receptacle has no advantage. Single receptacles are used on individual appliance branch circuits (e.g. for a large A/C unit) only to restrict usage on that circuit to a single appliance.

My GFCIs in 4-inch J-boxes:

[Adz]

Neat looking job although there's nothing top of the line about the receptacle housings. They are just regular 4-inch galvanized junction boxes. Since these J-boxes offer more room they are often used instead of standard receptacle boxes when installing GFCI receptacles -- results in a less cluttered, more workmanlike installation.

I disagree with the claim that a single receptacle is an upgrade over a duplex receptacle unless your electrician is referring to the integral surge protection which those singles appear to have. Each half of a 15A or 20A receptacle will carry the full rated current, with the total maximum draw restricted by the circuit breaker so a single receptacle has no advantage. Single receptacles are used on individual appliance branch circuits (e.g. for a large A/C unit) only to restrict usage on that circuit to a single appliance.

You should have seen the "standard" housing used before-- this was a huge upgrade!! Love to see what top of the line looks like if you have any pictures.

Yes, the integral surge which they do have and I'm almost sure he told me using a single receptacle for each amp would help in reducing noise including the slight hum was I getting, and after he installed them, I now have dead silence when I turn them on. Could be attributable to the overall job as well, but that's what he recommended.

[Glen B]

Yes, the integral surge which they do have and I'm almost sure he told me using a single receptacle for each amp would help in reducing noise including the slight hum was I getting, and after he installed them, I now have dead silence when I turn them on. Could be attributable to the overall job as well, but that's what he recommended.

He likely meant "single" as in use "one" or "a separate" circuit for each amp. That makes sense to me.

You should have seen the "standard" housing used before-- this was a huge upgrade!! Love to see what top of the line looks like if you have any pictures.

There is really no "top-of-the-line" in metal switch/receptacle/fixture/junction boxes. They are all basic stamped, galvanized steel. One manufacturer's product may be a little better made and finished than another's (and look more impressive) but they all do the same job. As long as they perform their function which is to provide a means of mounting switches, receptacles and fixtures, make connections and contain arcing should it occur, that is all that matters.

The following is as good as you will get. Looks like what you have. Enjoy your new dedicated lines.

http://electrical-supply.net/category.asp_Q_parentID_E_5_A_subCatid_E_85_A_LowBound_E_7

http://electrical-supply.net/category.asp_Q_parentID_E_5_A_subCatid_E_85_A_LowBound_E_0

[Adz]

Thanks Glen.
Btw, are you from NYC?

[Glen B]

Thanks Glen.
Btw, are you from NYC?

Yes.

[chuckg]

Brucek -- I was peering at your dedicated outlets pictures, and have a question: Why didn't you use 20 amp spec grade outlets? That last 5 amps is going to have such a tough time getting out through those 15A outlets......
:rofl:

[Glen B]

Brucek -- I was peering at your dedicated outlets pictures, and have a question: Why didn't you use 20 amp spec grade outlets? That last 5 amps is going to have such a tough time getting out through those 15A outlets......
:rofl:

15A and 20A receptacles both have the same current carrying capacity. The only material difference is the neutral "T" slot in the face plate of the 20A receptacle, the purpose of which is to restrict operation to true 20A equipment. The NEC permits 15A receptacles to be installed on individual 20A circuits but does not permit 20A receptacles to be installed on 15A circuits.

Click the following link to see the specs for one manufacturer's 15A and 20A, 125V and 250V single and duplex receptacles. The thickness of the contacts (.032"/0.81mm) is the same across the board.

Arrow Hart/Cooper Wiring Devices:http://www.cooperwiringdevices.com/c...receptacle.pdf

[Snap]

What a great thread. :T Glen is right. :agree: While it is not probably the best thing to do, I have seen my brother placed a 20a wall mount in a 15 amp circuit. (Just tripped the breaker, removed the 2 plug out of the j-box, installed the 20a outlet and done) We did this, simply due to the fact that the Furman power conditioner had a 20 amp T plug like glen was talking about. (we were never going to go over 20 amps at that circuit so no danger there.)

One thing to add to this great thread, (I hope that I did not miss it and some one already covered this) aside from the dedicated circuit, an "isolated" ground would only further isolate AV equipment from lights, microwaves, etc. At church I did sound for it called for 20 isolated circuits and 3 circuits with islolated grounds. (1 20amp isolated ground for amps, 1 20amp isolation ground for board and eq, and 1 isolated for computer equipment that would be used in the AV loop) It did not cost the church that much money, and saved me a lot problems.

Some really great information in this thread, and if people are building a home should definatly take note of this thread.

:T Cool Thread! :T

[Snap]

Essentially, there are a system ground and an equipment ground. The equipment ground can be "isolated equipment ground." An isolated equipment grounding conductor runs, in the same conduit or raceway as the supply conductors. This conductor is insulated from the metallic raceway and all ground points throughout its length. It originates at an isolated-ground-type-receptacle or equipment input terminal block and terminates at the point where neutral and ground are bonded at the power source.
I thought I would through this out there just in case some one was wondring about "isolated grounds"

If you have your contractor install the isolated grounds the plug will usually be orange with a triangle on top of the plug. (At least that is how it is for comercial. I would hope you can get a white one for home use)

[Glen B]

Here's a link to an excellent article on isolated grounding by the Liebert Corporation:

http://www.liebert.com/support/whitepapers/documents/sl_24275.asp

[Snap]

Glen great link. Says it much better than I did. :T

It does help out AV systems. If this can be done I would do it. 60hz hum SUCKS in a sound system.

[chuckg]

Yes, indeed. 60 Hz hum stinks. But, here is a topper - try playing a recording made in the U.K. that has 50 Hz hum in the mix. Now play it on a system here that has 60 Hz hum.


AAAggghhh! Your woofers will never be the same.

[JetFlyGuy]

I once dated a girl that was cryogenically treated!

[malcky]

A question for anyone that has a dedicated line to their equiptment:

do you still have a decent 4,6 or 8 way multi block that all your gear is connected to and then the multi block is plugged into your new dedicated plug sockets?

the reason i ask is i have 14 items (3 monoblock amps, 1 stereo amp, processor, 2 subs, tv, pj, htpc, sky box, dvd, cd) which are plugged into 2 8 way multi blocks.

so doing a single or double socket for each item for me would be out of the question.

[Adz]

Personally, if I were you, I would have installed 3 dedicated lines - each double socket. I would then buy something higher end than a multi-block like a very good power conditioner, and plug all your front end components into it ( processor, tv, pj, htpc, sky box, dvd, cd, and maybe the one stereo amp unless it had too much power), and then I would use the remaining 5 sockets for your monoblocks and I guess your subs.

[malcky]

Personally, if I were you, I would have installed 3 dedicated lines - each double socket. I would then buy something higher end than a multi-block like a very good power conditioner, and plug all your front end components into it ( processor, tv, pj, htpc, sky box, dvd, cd, and maybe the one stereo amp unless it had too much power), and then I would use the remaining 5 sockets for your monoblocks and I guess your subs.

sorry i should have been more clear!!

I dont have a dedicated line yet, its something im searching and getting more info on before taking the plunge. Also the multi blocks i am using are the Olson 8 way blocks from (http://www.soundfantastic.co.uk/products.htm) which are fitted with an IEC inlet so i can use my own power cords.

When i have called electricians about doing this they so far have all said that doing this would be a waste of time as power from normal wall socket is just the same!!! (in otherwords i havnt come accross a audiophile electrician yet)

I also know some people are very skepticle on this subject but in my logic there can be no harm in trying to clean up the power supply to any av gear,

for example: would you drink a puddle of water...no...that why it gets filtered and purified and whatever else to it before drinking tap water and even then its not good enough for some and they pay more to get bottled water.

so for me i believe cleaning up the power will give better results and probably cheaper to do than upgrading existing kit because you think it sounds off..


another thing: has everyone that has done a dedicated line buried the cables into the walls (being nicer looking but permanent and expensive) or has some just nailed it along the roof & down a wall behind the av gear? (making it more flexible if you move room about or move house & cheaper).

thanks

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

A question for anyone that has a dedicated line to their equiptment:

do you still have a decent 4,6 or 8 way multi block that all your gear is connected to and then the multi block is plugged into your new dedicated plug sockets?

I installed enough outlets so that everything that needed to go directly to the wall (TV, VCRs, etc.) had an outlet available. I used a pair of Adcom power directors to plug all the audio gear into, so that it would all come on when I powered up the system. Plus it has a delay for the amps – nifty.

the reason i ask is i have 14 items (3 monoblock amps, 1 stereo amp, processor, 2 subs, tv, pj, htpc, sky box, dvd, cd) which are plugged into 2 8 way multi blocks.

Four amps and two subs – that’s an awful lot to put on one circuit.

Note that the multi-blocks have 10-amp fuses. Don’t know how they do things there in the UK, but we typically have 15 and 20 amp circuits here in the USA. So you’d be loosing current capability with the multi block. However, I think you have 220 v service there? If so then 10 amps is probably sufficient.

Still, I wouldn’t plug any amplifier into a multi unless it was designed to accommodate the maximum amperage of the circuit. Most amplifier manufacturers recommend plugging in straight to the wall.

I also know some people are very skepticle on this subject but in my logic there can be no harm in trying to clean up the power supply to any av gear,

for example: would you drink a puddle of water...no...that why it gets filtered and purified and whatever else to it before drinking tap water and even then its not good enough for some and they pay more to get bottled water.

Never hurts to err on the side of caution, but all hi-fi electronics have built-in filtering to deal with less-than-optimal power.

another thing: has everyone that has done a dedicated line buried the cables into the walls (being nicer looking but permanent and expensive) or has some just nailed it along the roof & down a wall behind the av gear? (making it more flexible if you move room about or move house & cheaper).

In wall. Didn’t cost any extra ‘cause I did it myself.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt