Def Tech or Axiom Audio Epic 80

[Ren]

Hi,

Newbie here and planning to save up for my home theater. I got a good deal on the Anthem PVA7 amp from a Montreal dealer that I couldn't pass up (it is an amazing amp for two channel...what a surprise!!). I am thinking of purchasing the AVM20 next year.

The dilemma is the speakers. My basement is 29 feet x 30 feet and almost a perfect rectangle (speakers are set about 8 feet away from the back wall, listening distance from speaker to couch about 8 feet and ceiling is 8 feet). The floor is carpet over concrete. I have seen but not heard the Epic 80 system. For $3100 cdn, its not too expensive and seems to require a big room to fill out - which I have. However, I have heard the Def Tech BP 2006 (with matching center and surrunds) and it sounds room filling and costs about the same - without haggling yet. However, the demo room was small. I am afraid that the 2006 will not fill my room. I don't mean sounding loud, but feeling the bass when tanks roll by in "Saving Private Ryan" - which I felt at the dealer's room.

Any thoughts on Axiom Epic 80 against Def Tech. Will it be better to get the BP 2002? Or the new 7001sc and matching center and surrounds. The cost for 7001 is really high and at that price is it worth it? For the money I could go ProAc, B&W Nautilus. Mind you, I got tired of 2 channel listening...I used to be a Quad esl63 owner with tubes. Don't have the time to listen 5 hours straight anymore. Would be using the system for home theater 80% of the time.

Any thoughts? Should I be looking at other brands? What brands?

Ren

[LEVESQUE]

Just a side note.

The AVM20 will be replace by the AVM30 in 2-4 weeks, for a lower price.

[Ren]

New AVM 30

Thanks,

Any info on the AVM30? How much in cdn dollars are we talking about?


Ren :T

[spiffnme]

I've never heard a full 5.1 system from Def Tech, but I have been able to hear some of their tower speakers and was impressed. But it certainly comes at a price. I personally thought my Axioms sounded just as good, and cost a whole lot less.

What is behind the speakers? Why are they 8' away from the back wall? Can the speakers get pushed back closer to the wall and give your seating area a little more room away from them? The Axioms will sound better if you're further back than 8'. They present a huge soundstage, and at only 8' away, you'll not get to enjoy all of it.

My vote goes to the Axiom package. Thought I'd suggest a Hsu subwoofer over theirs. Theirs is good, but the Hsu's are better, and cost a tad bit less. For a room your size I'd suggest their VTF-3 MKII. Unless you really want go to go all out and go for their cylinder sub, the 1220HO. Heck your room is big enough to support a pair of subs.

Here's my suggestion...

Axiom M60ti mains (the 60's will more than handle what you want)
Axiom VP150 center
Axiom QS8 surrounds
Axiom M2i rears (if you're going to do 7.1)

The money you save by buying the Axioms over the other brands should go into a really high quality subwoofer(s). Especially since you say you're going to use this system mostly for HT. Don't think your skimping on quality just because your saving money. The Axioms really are as good as their cracked up to be. They just don't cost as much!

If you've got the room and the WAF is ok with it, I'd go all out and get a pair of the Hsu 1220HO cylinder subs. Or if that's a bit overkill, you'd probably be real happy with a pair of their VTF-3 subs. You've got a really large space to fill with LFE...if you want those tanks to rumble your gut, you'll need some serious sub(s). Hsu is serious about subs.

Good luck!

[Ren]

spiffnme,

The reason for 8 feet between the speakers and backwall...the front projection (55 inches) is near the backwall. I am trying to get the speakers away from the backwall to avoid it sounding too boomy.

You recommended the m60....why not the m80? I was looking at the m80ti. I thought the m60 will not fill my 29 x 30 foot basement. Also for the back speakers, I still have a 10 year old PSB Alpha's that I will use.

I have an old velodyne subwoofer (servo1200...anyone still remember them from the 1990s). I thought of using Axiom's sub for the front and using the velodyne for the rear. How can I go about doing this if the LFE on the AVM20 OR 30 has only one LFE output ? The velodyne has a line level input and speaker terminals.

Also, any recommendations on interconnects/speaker cables to use for the mains and center. I have to get 7 interconnects!!! I don't want to break the bank!!

Ren

[spiffnme]

You don't need to worry about your mains sounding boomy unless you get them inches from the wall. What you really don't want to do is put them in a corner. Give them a foot or two from both the side and rear walls and you'll be more than OK.

I think either the M60 or M80 would work fine for you. Give Axiom a call and they'll point you in the right direction. Don't worry, they won't try to "upsell" you. They recommend smaller speakers all the time for people - if that's what would work best for them.

Using the PSB's for the rear effects should be fine, as not much happens back there, but I highly suggest you get the QS8's for surrounds. They're the best sounding surround speakers I've ever heard.

As far as dual subs go, I'm not sure myself how it's done, but I do know that many people do it. Someone else here can probably sort that issue out for you. I still suggest you get a Hsu subwoofer though. Grab the VTF-3, and pair it with your old Velo.

Cables...I've been buying all my cables from Blue Jeans. They use high quality cable and connections, and don't charge an arm and a leg.

[spiffnme]

PS - have you considered the Rotel RSP-1068 processor as well? If I'm not mistaken, it's less pricey than the Anthem processor, and will likely give you equal sound quality for your home theatre needs.

[Ren]

Hi Spiffme

Yes....its a toss up between Rotel or Anthem. I will get the preamp/processor and speakers next summer. I couldn't resist the price that the dealer was selling the PVA7 amp for...it was a real bargain.

I will wait and see if Anthem does come out with the AVM30 and if it is any good.

If funds are short, I might even consider Outlaw Audio. At $799 U.S. It's pretty hard to beat. But then again, the PVA7 is a very good amp (judging from my two channel listening), and I don't know how good the quality of the preamp section is on the Outlaw preamp/processor.

If I do get the Axiom (85% for sure), I am getting the whole home theater set-up with the m80 including the surrounds and accompanying stands.

Thanks for the input,
Ren

[aud19]

There are lot's of excellent speaker companies out there including and besides Axiom. B&W, Athena, Energy, PSB, Paradigm, Kef, Rockets and Totem to name a few. For subs SVS, HSU, Adire, Paradigm and Velodyne. As for cables I definitely recommend this forums sponsor, Cat Cables. Awesome service and products tailored specifically to your gear, tastes and budget. The link's at the bottom of the page.

Jason

[spiffnme]

fyi...The QS8's come with a wall mounting "T" bracket. If you have the space to wall mount them, you won't need the stands. The bracket works very, very well.

[jimmyp58]

My vote, while biased, is for the Def Techs. Don't worry about the thunder in Saving Private Ryan. Those puppies will fill your room nicely. I have a pair for my 2nd HT (actually the older version BP2006TL) and while the room isn't quite as big as yours, they do an awesome job. I don't know the price points of the Axioms being talked about but I know you'll be thrilled with the Def Techs just the same and never regret it. But, that is my ears. You need to demo both to see (er, hear) what YOU like.

Jim

[Ren]

Hi,


I heard the Def Tech BP2006. The Axiom Epic 80 theater package sells for $3100 CDN including shipping. The quote for the Def Tech BP2006 with the accompanying surround and center channel and mains lists for $3100 CDN - did not haggle with the salesman yet. The canadian prices...are they about right? Anyone?

I loved Private Ryan on the Def Tech especially the last scenes where they are trying to hold the bridge. The german tanks were not loud but deep in your chest pounding (which is great). The pop of the steel clip of the garrard M1 rifle (i think that's the name of it) when you had no more bullets sounded metallic and precise amid all the loud sounds going on around you. Mind you....the room was not large. I don't know if the BP2006 will fill my room. In any case, the dealer will allow me to take it home to audition. However, if I do like the 2006 I might go higher to either the 2004 or 2002.

However, having said that....the 2006 sucked at 2 channel audio. I played an audio cd of Diana Krall...yes I can hear her voice. But the brush works and the sense of space around her and the other instruments were not there compared to my 2 channel system (using my dad's SF sfd1 mk2 with Wadia 22 transport - pioneer stable platter mechanism, SIMAUDIO P5/YBA 2 HCDT with Castle Chester). Maybe I am asking too much since the receiver used was the top of the line Pioneer Elite receiver when driving the 2006. I sold my quad esl63 and Conrad Johnson pv10al/mv55 because I need room for home theater.

Ren

[David Meek]

The pop of the steel clip of the garrard M1 rifle (i think that's the name of it)

Actually, it's Garand.

[aud19]

Though Pioneer's receiver's aren't the most musical out there I've never cared for DefTech's for music. They're probably one of the best movie soundtrack speaker companies out there but they lack the musicality of some of the other brands I mentioned IMO. You stated that you'll be using this system 80% for HT, so that's a call you'll have to make. I personally couldn't give up the musicality of my Energy's but I'm closer to 60% movies 40% music. I'd probably have DefTechs on my short list to demo if I was doing a dedicated theatre (95% or more movies) and a seperate music system but again, that's a call you'll have to make.

Jason

[Bob Santos]

I used Definitives in my HT for quite sometime. My system consisted of BP 30 mains, CLR2000 center, BPX surrounds, and inwall rear surrounds.
I agree with other's that have said that Def Tech's are hard beat for HT use. Like you, my main interest in my system was HT. Probably 90% HT, 10% 2ch. The Definitives definately didn't do as well with 2ch. They actually have a strange 2ch sound. I guess due to the bi-polar design. They were fine when I wanted to just have music playing while doing things around the house, but if I wanted to sit and listen I was easily able to pick out thier week points. Since then my interest shifted to more like 60% HT 40% 2ch.
As that happened I found myself in need of a speaker change.
Here is a quote from a thread a few years ago.

"I want to point out that as time flows, so to sometimes do your tastes. For example? 5 years ago, I listened to no jazz. today? I listen nearly exclusively to jazz on my system. The difference in my musical tastes means that I am listening to music which when optimized on an excellent 2 channel setup, I am experiencing sheer bliss in audio performance."

It was said in a thread where I was doing a change to my system with only HT in mind not caring about the 2ch performance. To point out what I like today may not be what I am looking for tomorrow. Well he hit the nail on the head.
So like others my advise is go with speakers that you are happy with thier performance in all aspects, and it may save you from replacing in the future.

[Ren]

Speakers in various price ranges??

Ok all...

What would you suggest I look at in various price points (full home theater speakers - mains, surrounds, center, and sub) for a 29 feet by 30 feet room.

a) $3000 CDN price range (not including tax)

b) $5000 CDN price range (not including tax)

c) $7000 CDN price range (not including tax)


The $7000 CDN price range is as far as I can go. I have to budget for preamp/processor and cables and interconnects

Ren

[aud19]

That's a good point Bob Also I'll add to that... The better equipment you own the more likely, as in Bob's case, you'll start to listen to more music not just different music in which case concentrating on speakers that only do one thing well may not be the wisest investment.

Jason

[aud19]

Look in to Athena, B&W, Energy, Kef, Paradigm, PSB, Polk, Sonus Faber, Totem and Vienna Acoustics to start. Plus Axiom and Rocket online brands.(I'm sure some other folks will have suggestions too )

SVS, HSU, Adire, Paradigm and Velodyne all make good subs.

Jason

[jimmyp58]

That's weird about the 2006's not sounding very well for 2-channel. I have them hooked up to a SONY ES receiver (yes, with their wimpy amps mind you) and it sounds very nice.

Again, just proves the difference in what one person hears vs. another.

Jim

[jimmyp58]

Not sure what Def Techs you guys are listening to and with what amps/pre-pros are driving them but I am ~ 85% music (of that 90% 2-channel and 10% multi-channel) and my Def Tech BP7000SC's absolutely sound fabulous, 2-channel OR multi-channel. Of course I have a Bryston 14B SST powering them so that definitely helps.

Again proving the point though, I thought KEF & most (not all) B&W's sounded thin compared to my Def Techs. Everyone has a different ear and differences in amps, room acoustics, pre-pros, cabling, etc. all play a role.

The best bet is to bring home a few different pair and play around with them to see which sounds the best in your environment.

Jim

[JoeHard]

As a long time, and admitedly biased, owner of Def Tech speakers, I have never agreed that they aren't good for music. I have the BP2002's and have always enjoyed the huge soundstage and depth of bipolars. I will agree they don't image as well as direct radiator's, bit that just means they sound different, not worse. Speakers that I have heard over the years that I liked better for music than the Def Tech's have alway's had much larger pricetags.

[spiffnme]

I too enjoyed the full sound of the Def Tech's that I heard. Though admitadly it was a short demo of some classical music - but they still cost double what my pair of Axioms did.

I'm curious to hear some Def Techs playing something more main stream with vocals. They were impressive with Holst's "The Planets".

[Ren]

Def Tech Owners

Still having a hard time picking either Axiom Epic 80 home theater kit or some Def Techs or something else. I have at least a year to think about it before purchase.

When I heard the Def Tech 2006 with a Pioneer elite (top model) and Elite Dvd, I notice that the voice was there. However, the low level details were not there. What I mean is the brush strokes, etc.. Also, I notice the sense of air around the voices and instruments, hall sounds where hard to pick out with the 2006. Pick a Diana Krall recording...any...is that the case with any 2006 owners? How about the 7000? I would love to get the 7001 since I think it would match my 29 feet x 30 feet room.

Had to get rid of my Quad esl63 and Conrad Johnson to make room for home theater. I guess I want audiophile/videophile side of me to co-exist without breaking the bank.Sonus Fabe nice....but their large floorstanders are I think the only ones that can fill my room but too expensive. I had ProAc Response 1.5,just ok.

Ren

[Ren]

Totems

Oh Yeah forgot...


Totem's are nice. The company is 20minutes away from me and I can talk to Vincent Brusezze anytime. The only Totem's I love are the Mani-2. I had them hooked up to a Simaudio celeste 4150 (150 watts@8ohms) to my Dolby surround processor and watching Jurassic Park on VHS in 1995. Amazing. Imagine DVD existed in 1995!!

However, I don't know how they will mate with the Anthem PVA7 multi-channel amp. Specs say 125 watts driving 8 ohms with one channel. They don't double up as you get to 4 ohms. The Mani-2s might be a tough load on my amp. I'll see next year and borrow them from a dealer.

This is what I hate about audio/video. I think the toughest part is choosing the speakers!!!

Ren

[David Meek]

Amazing. Imagine DVD existed in 1995!!

Ah yes, those were the good old days. Buy one get one free. Buy two get four free. Unlimited use of coupons at online sites. Ahhhhh. . . .
:banana:

[aud19]

Ren, I think you need a pair of these :drool:

http://www.totemacoustic.com/english/products/floorStanding_shaman.htm

Jason :B

[Ren]

Jason,

Don't I wish!! If I win $1million dollars!! : I heard them at the dealer and at the Montreal Audio Show...love them but the price has gotta come down dude!! At upwards of $13000 (yes that is 3 zeros) CDN...its awfully steep!!


Ren

[aud19]

I know ops:

But they sure are nice aren't they! :P :P

Jason

[jimmyp58]

If you aren't hearing the details, then you probably won't be happy with the 2006's. Like I mentioned, I have a pair of the 2006's being powered by some wimpy amps in my Sony ES all-in-one receiver and it sounds wonderful. Not that it would rival my 7000's but very, very nice just the same. I can also guarantee you that the 2006's would sound even better if I had them hooked up to my Bryston amp with Rotel pre-pro. Like I said in one of my replies, it is all relative and each piece factors into the total sonic experience.

A Pioneer Elite receiver is a nice piece of equipment but can nowhere rival the sonic quality of a Rotel pre-pro and high-end amplifier. That would be an unfair comparison. The Sony ES receiver I have is more than likely not on a par with that receiver but for some reason I am hearing things you are not. I have an extremely picky ear and can notice the finite details you mention. While not nearly as precise and clear as my 7000 setup, it is there just the same.

But in the end, it is your ears that will guide you. You mention that you have about a year to make up your mind. Save your $$$ for the 7001's and you'll never look back. But if you do this, keep in mind the Pioneer Elite receiver will do these speakers no justice and you'd have to upgrade that too. Many a guy on other forums that took the dive for either the 7000's or the 7001's were convinced (by their dealer that didn't sell separates) a Pioneer Elite receiver or Denon AVR-5803 will do just fine. Wrong! Each and every one found that over time, they needed a separate amp to drive these to the limits they were meant to be driven. So, they finally broke down, bought a separate amp, and now realize the sonic beauty they behold.

Jim

[Ren]

Thanks Jim...


Actually, I bought the demo Anthem PVA7 AMP from the same dealer that has the def tech. I listened to the amp using the Pioneer Elite Receiver as Preamp/processor driving the 7001sc with matching center channel and surrounds. The sound was more deeper and fuller than the 2006.

I totally agree with you that a receiver might not cut it with the Def Techs. I listened (briefly) between the difference using the Elite as a receiver driving Def Tech and the Elite used as a preamp/processor with the Anthem. Big Difference.

I could not pass up the demo price of the Anthem PVA7. Let's just say that I got it for the same price I would have bought an Integra Receiver that I was considering.

If I consider spending that much on the 7001SC package...at that price, I have to look long and hard at Paradigm Reference Studio v100.3 home theater package and some other ones.

Thanks
Ren

[Claude D D]

So many choices of great speakers and such a personal decision.Your best bet is to purchase from a place that will allow you to try them out in your own home with your own gear and give you the option to return them if they don't work out for you.
I've been very happy with my Def Techs for the last 8 yrs and find they are excellent with 2 channel with the proper attention to placement(as with most any speaker).
Good luck in your quest for the speakers that best suit your tastes. :T

[Adz]

I am a huge Def Tech fan. Started with BP10s driving my Pioneer Elite several years back. Then stepped up to the Def Tech 2000s. And recently upgraded to the 7000s. I had been driving the 7000 pair in the front with my Rotel 1080, but it simply wasn't enough power to drive the built-in 14" SuperCube reference subwoofer which puts out 1,800 watts (built in to each speaker), so I upgraded to the Bryston 6B SST (tested at 351 watts per channel) which is now also driving my beefy BP3000 center channel. The result is undeniably the best and most enveloping sound I've ever heard playing DVD movies :T

[Claude D D]

I had been driving the 7000 pair in the front with my Rotel 1080, but it simply wasn't enough power to drive the built-in 14" SuperCube reference subwoofer which puts out 1,800 watts (built in to each speaker) :T

Hey Adz,
The subwoofer section in the Def Tech 7000 & 2000 series speakers is powered by an internal amplifier.Can you clairify your statement?

[Adz]

Not sure I follow your question. I agree - In the 7000sc there is a built-in 14" long throw subwoofer driven by an 1800-watt class D amplifier and coupled to two pressure-driven 14" infrasonic radiators. Did I say something different? There is a significant difference in shear bass and overall sound at least with these speakers when driving them with either the 1080 or the 6BSST. Let me know if I missed your point (which is entirely possible) ops: