Which Subwoofer?

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  • JeffKnob
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2004
    • 7

    Which Subwoofer?

    I am wanting to purchase a subwoofer for $800 or less. I have been thinking about the Sunfire Super Junior, 2 Velodyne CHT10, 1 or 2 HSU STF2, 1 or 2 Paradigm PDR10, or a Paradigm PS1000. I really don't know what to do. 95% of the time it is used for home theater.


    Pioneer receiver
    Paradigm Esprit (Front)
    Paradigm CC270
    Paradigm Focus (Rear)
    :T 50" Panasonic Plasma
    Onkyo TX-NR708
    PS3 for Bluray
    Paradigm Focus for the 4 corners
    Paradigm CC-270
    2 Dayton RSS390HF 15" subwoofers
    HTPC
  • Bam!
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2004
    • 2458

    #2
    Hey there JeffKnob!

    Welcome to the forum!

    While I am a big fan of Velodyne and M&K I might add... your speakers are Paradigm. That being said Paradigm does make a great sub except I noticed you are looking at 10 inch sub.....I would splurge for a 12 but that is just my opinion !

    However it does depend on the size of your room but I find you can never have too much sub 8)

    Take care and stick around!




    Bam!
    Got a nice rack to show me ?

    Comment

    • JeffKnob
      Junior Member
      • Mar 2004
      • 7

      #3
      I am thinking the 10" subs would be more accurate. Also for some of the subs like the PDR10 I can afford to get two of them. Would that be better than one PDR12?
      :T 50" Panasonic Plasma
      Onkyo TX-NR708
      PS3 for Bluray
      Paradigm Focus for the 4 corners
      Paradigm CC-270
      2 Dayton RSS390HF 15" subwoofers
      HTPC

      Comment

      • aud19
        Twin Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2003
        • 16706

        #4
        Let me start by saying that subs, especially ones from the same company/line, are not inherently more accurate or "faster" based on their size.

        Now two ten inchers vs one twelve incher...now that's interesting! It's hard to say which would be better. It would likely have a lot do do with your pre/pro, your room, if you could setup the two subs to not cancel eachother etc. If you got it right and likely after a lot of work / experimentation, two subs could fill your room more evenly but I'd guess the twelve incher would still go deeper. I know some people swear by two subs and others condemn them. I remember reading somewher that one expert prefered two subs, one in the middle of the front or back wall and the other in the middle of the right or left wall.

        Jason




        Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide
        Jason

        Comment

        • Sonnie Parker
          • Jan 2002
          • 2858

          #5
          Hey Jeff and welcome to htguide!

          At $800 or less you can easily pick up 2 Velodyne CHT-12's.

          CHT-12
          12" Forward Firing Subwoofer
          (9.9" piston diameter)
          Frequency Response: 25-120 Hz +-3 dB
          High Pass Crossover (6 dB/octave slope):
          80Hz or 100Hz
          Low Pass Crossover (12 dB octave, 24 dB ultimate):
          40Hz-120Hz (adjustable)
          Auto On/Off
          Dynamic Power: 400 watts
          RMS Power: 170 watts
          Magnet: 55 oz.
          Voice Coil: 2" 4-layer copper
          Inputs: Line-level and speaker-level
          Outputs: Line-level and speaker-level
          Crossover bypass: Subwoofer Direct
          Cone: Reinforced fiber
          Cabinet (H/W/D): 18" x 15" x 21"
          Weight: 60 lbs.
          Warranty: 2 years (parts & labor)
          Finish: Black vinyl

          I'm not sure if you've ever heard of or read any of Tom Nousaine's sub reviews but he's quite a busy man when it comes to testing subs. This is what he said about the CT-120 (the current model CHT-12 is the improved version of the CT-120):

          "...THE CT-120 IS ONE OF THE FEW SUBWOOFERS I'VE TESTED AT ANY PRICE THAT COULD PRODUCE CLEAN OUTPUT AT 20HZ..." Tom Nousaine, Stereo Review June 1998

          Granted this was almost 6 years ago but Velodyne as well as many others have done nothing but get better over the years. I'd definitely consider stepping up to at least a 12" and maybe two of them. Although I don't think you'd have a problem with accuracy I don't know that it would matter that much with 95% movie use. I'd say the more, the bigger, the better, with movies.


          When I had our home theater combined with our great room I had to have a nice shiny lookin' compact sub (WAF) but wanted a 15" because of the size of the room and all the openings. Now that I have the dedicated HT room I'm seriously considering selling my HGS-15 and buying two CHT-15's (and have money left over I suspect). A friend of mine just got him one the other day and that baby is awesome. I could get by with only one but I wanna try two just because I can.






          SONNIE

          Cedar Creek Cinema

          DVD Collection

          BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

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          • JeffKnob
            Junior Member
            • Mar 2004
            • 7

            #6
            Does anybody know anything about the Definitive Technology SuperCube II? I like the idea that it has a small enclosure.
            :T 50" Panasonic Plasma
            Onkyo TX-NR708
            PS3 for Bluray
            Paradigm Focus for the 4 corners
            Paradigm CC-270
            2 Dayton RSS390HF 15" subwoofers
            HTPC

            Comment

            • Andrew Pratt
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 16507

              #7
              Jeff typically its utter hog wash that a 10" driver is any faster then an 18" woofer...it all depends on the box and the driver motor strenght...it would be like saying a lada is going to be faster then a 1969 camero because the lada is smaller and weighs less

              The small box's like the sunfire and Def tech aren't bad woofers but they tend to have higher distortion then the larger drivers in a larger box but if tiny size is a must these still put out quite a lot of noise and are WAF friendly. If you can go with a slightly larger box I'd strongly consider the Adire Rava as its very reasonably priced and has a stellar track record from both HT and music lovers.

              given your budget you could actually afford two of them which would really add to the over all volume.

              Adire Rava

              Also FYI larger drivers tend to be able to play lower but multiple drivers can play louder...so two 10" drivers could be louder then a single 12" but couldn't play as low. Obviously this is a slight generalization without knowing which driver we're talking about but its generally true.




              Comment

              • David Meek
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 8938

                #8
                Hi Jeff, welcome to The Guide! :later:

                Being a Velodyne owner (FSR-15) I'll toss my hat in the ring for the Velodyne CHT-15. It's quite a unit for the price: MSRP $599. Here's a review on it from Sound & Vision magazine.

                Now, this was touched on in an earlier post, but two subs will almost always require much more set-up/experimentation to be effective - ie, proper placement to avoid cancellation. Go for one better sub as opposed to two lesser ones to start out, then if you feel you really need more than a good 15-incher get a second one down the road.

                This is as always, just my two cents. Good luck and keep us posted! :T




                David - HTGuide flunky
                Our "Theater"
                Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

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                Comment

                • aud19
                  Twin Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 16706

                  #9
                  I just want to second (and third ) a few things.. As Andrew more eloquently described than I, smaller drivers are not inherently more accurate. Accuracy is dependant on enclosure construction, speaker / magnet construction and amplifier power and quality.

                  I've got to agree with David too as I believe one $800 sub will sound as good as two $400 dollar subs. Invest in a good 12" (or 15") sub and if you decide you still want more and are willing to do the setup experimentation save up for a second one.

                  The companies to check out IMO are Velodyne, Paradigm , Adire, JBL, SVS and HSU.

                  Jason




                  Need a new display? Questions about new display technologies? Visit RPTVs, plasmas, and other monitors @ HTguide
                  Jason

                  Comment

                  • Shane Martin
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Apr 2001
                    • 2852

                    #10
                    Quick background:

                    I've owned an M&k, heard several others including the following:

                    Rava
                    Velodyne upto the HGS18
                    SVS CS+ series and PC+ series
                    Paradigm pw2200

                    The Rava is very impressive for its size. The Velodynes were not. The dual cs+ setup I heard was the same price as the Velodyne I heard and it wasn't even close to equality. The SVS setup just destroyed it. I used to be impressed by the Velodynes but I'm not so anymore since I've heard better for far less money.

                    If I was buying an $800 sub I'd consider:

                    The Hsu VTF3
                    SVS pb1+ or 2isd(the 2 is a little over budget) or a cylinder series sub
                    Adire Dharman(a little better than the Rava).

                    've got to agree with David too as I believe one $800 sub will sound as good as two $400 dollar subs. Invest in a good 12" (or 15") sub and if you decide you still want more and are willing to do the setup experimentation save up for a second one.
                    This is good advice.

                    The one reason I'd personally focus on one of the internet companies is that your money will stretch farther due to no middleman involved. Shipping to me is the equivalent of tax. The only x factor is that you probably won't hear one before but given the liberal return policies of them all, then I don't think you can lose at all.

                    Comment

                    • David Meek
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 8938

                      #11
                      Shane, gotta put in one comment on the upper-end Velodynes.

                      The servo-controlled models are extremely accurate. The controller compares the outgoing signal to the incoming thousands of times a second and corrects the outgoing to eliminate anything spurious. What happens when listening for the first time to ANY good servo-controlled sub is you feel something is missing - and it is. The distortions and any even/odd harmonics that are generated by other less-accurate subs. You only hear what you are supposed to. Plus, couple that with a sealed-box design (less "chuff") vs. ported and the sound is definitely not what you thought you'd get.

                      I will say that once you get used to the sound of a servo-controlled sub, listening to another sub is an interesting experience.
                      :twisted:

                      As always, this is just my 2 cents.




                      David - HTGuide flunky
                      Our "Theater"
                      Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                      .

                      David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                      Comment

                      • Shane Martin
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Apr 2001
                        • 2852

                        #12
                        Shane, gotta put in one comment on the upper-end Velodynes.

                        The servo-controlled models are extremely accurate. The controller compares the outgoing signal to the incoming thousands of times a second and corrects the outgoing to eliminate anything spurious. What happens when listening for the first time to ANY good servo-controlled sub is you feel something is missing - and it is. The distortions and any even/odd harmonics that are generated by other less-accurate subs. You only hear what you are supposed to. Plus, couple that with a sealed-box design (less "chuff") vs. ported and the sound is definitely not what you thought you'd get.

                        I will say that once you get used to the sound of a servo-controlled sub, listening to another sub is an interesting experience.
                        It is. I was shocked to hear what I was missing with the Velo. My friend who replaced his Velo was rather amazed. It's possible the bass is lower distortion above a certain limit but I didn't hear it on the SVS at all. The bass output at lower levels wasn't even close. If the bass was less distorted on the Velo, I wasn't hearing it.

                        A side note to this: if you read the DIY boards much you will see that servo's are not well liked either.

                        Needless to say I'd rather this thread not turn into an Anti Velo or gung ho velo thread. I've heard both and have made up my mind.

                        Comment

                        • Lex
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Apr 2001
                          • 27461

                          #13
                          While 10" could be considered optimal for music. Most 10" drivers seem to have a difficult time moving enough air in the lowest notes and in fact just won't go as low as a 12" typically. Thus 12" drivers seem to be a nice compromise. Still can be very musical, but have the ability to go lower, and louder while going lower.

                          I've had Adire Shivas, do a fine job. I have Adire Tempests in the box for a future project, 15", probably not as musical as a 12" though. I have also used MK MX-125, a nice sub, albeit an older model.

                          Lex
                          Doug
                          "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                          Comment

                          • Andrew Pratt
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 16507

                            #14
                            I have Adire Tempests in the box for a future project, 15", probably not as musical as a 12" though
                            doug with all due respect thats simply not the case with the tempest and shiva's with all things been equal (ie same alignment for box etc). A sealed Tempest in a resonable box will be every bit as tight and musical as a shiva...and play lower to boot.




                            Comment

                            • Sonnie Parker
                              • Jan 2002
                              • 2858

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Shane from Tulsa
                              I was shocked to hear what I was missing with the Velo.

                              A side note to this: if you read the DIY boards much you will see that servo's are not well liked either.
                              Welcome to htguide Shane! Just curious about these two statements.

                              Are you saying that you were shocked to realize you were missing the distortion?

                              The reason I ask is that I've had my HGS-15 for quite some time now... previous to that I had an 18" low end sub and I've listened to quite a few other low end subs recently (including the CHT-15 which while it has the servo technology it's not the same as the HGS-15). What I hear in these lower end subs is definitley different than my HGS-15. I can't say that I don't like them though because I do, and I sometimes wonder if I might not like a little more distortion than what I'm hearing from my HGS-15. Sometimes I even wonder if I spent too much on my HGS when I could have gotten enough to satisfy me from a lesser sub.

                              I'm thinkin' it won't be too long before I have another CHT-15 to listen to and in my dedicated HT room. I'll be able to compare them directly then. I surely don't suspect the CHT to extend as low as my HGS does but I don't think there's an abundance of info at that 16-20hz range in most material anyway. My HGS does a good job of extending low as the following graph will show:



                              Down only 3db at 16hz is nothing too shabby. The slope is intentional and controlled via a BFD. However there is no boosting at the 16-36hz range.

                              As far as servo's and DIY'ers... can a DIY'er actually build a servo the quality of the higher end servo's? I know Velodyne has a patent on their servo technology.

                              I guess what I'm trying to find out is if some people prefer non-servo techonology over servo due to the fact they might like more distortion?






                              SONNIE

                              Cedar Creek Cinema

                              DVD Collection

                              BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                              Comment

                              • Andrew Pratt
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 16507

                                #16
                                Sonnie what I think he means is that he's now hearing more bass with out the servo controling the driver. Servo's are great at limiting cone movement which can lower distortion but you give up headroom that way so the sub tends not to play as low or as loud...in other words a non servo sub might play lower and louder but as it does the distortion increases...but so long as you're not pushing it too hard its generally not that noticable...esp for HT purposes.




                                Comment

                                • Sonnie Parker
                                  • Jan 2002
                                  • 2858

                                  #17
                                  Sorry... double dip!






                                  SONNIE

                                  Cedar Creek Cinema

                                  DVD Collection

                                  BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                  Comment

                                  • Sonnie Parker
                                    • Jan 2002
                                    • 2858

                                    #18
                                    So I'm not necessarily crazy in thinkin' I might actually like the sound of say a CHT-15 over my HGS-15 (that is if I'm not pushing it to the extreme)? Although both have servo technology the HGS should be better with it's High Gain Servo vs. the CHT's Current Sensing Servo.

                                    I've still got to compare the two in the same room, my HT room, where it will count the most. Who knows... I may end up with one of each.

                                    I plan on testing some other subs too... including non-servo subs. I'm very curious to hear the various subs and measure their responses.

                                    But still Andrew... I don't think it would be a case of hearing more bass with out the servo controlling the driver. Velo's HGS technology simply minimizes distortion to 1% @ 20hz... it doesn't take away any bass that you would hear otherwise... it takes away distortion that you might hear otherwise. It makes the bass more pure. I think we would be hearing more distortion without servo. Granted we might like that sound better.






                                    SONNIE

                                    Cedar Creek Cinema

                                    DVD Collection

                                    BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                    Comment

                                    • Shane Martin
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Apr 2001
                                      • 2852

                                      #19
                                      Sonnie,
                                      I appreciate the Welcome. I guess I'm not here that often to discuss stuff but that's the way it goes sometimes.

                                      Anyway, Yes Andrew is correct that what I heard was deeper and louder bass but the distortion still wasn't there. It might have been but it wasn't audible. I suspect that going from an HGS15 to the CHT15 will be a downgrade if you want to stick with the servo. From what I've been able to read from others and from what I can tell from my auditions of Adire/SVS and a few other products(who don't use servos), I don't think they are nec essary.

                                      Comment

                                      • Sonnie Parker
                                        • Jan 2002
                                        • 2858

                                        #20
                                        Thanks Shane...

                                        You've definitely got my curiosity going! Especially with the dual SVS setup that destroyed the Velodynes.

                                        I'm very curious to what your listening setup/environment was.

                                        I was looking at Tom Nousaine's latest sub test list (only the top 25 are shown) but this doesn't take into account pricing and dual setups. I see the Klipsch RSW-15 made it on up to the top although it's an $1800 sub retail.









                                        SONNIE

                                        Cedar Creek Cinema

                                        DVD Collection

                                        BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                        Comment

                                        • Shane Martin
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Apr 2001
                                          • 2852

                                          #21
                                          Sonnie,
                                          The details are:

                                          Room is 15 wide by 30 deep with a sloped 8 foot ceiling. It's not a full arch. The subs were placed in the rear right corner and calibrated to reference.

                                          His former sub was the HGS15. The new SVS's are the 25-31CS+ x2 powered by a Samson S1000. The other equipment goes like this: Denon 3803, Panasonic RP82, Klipsch speakers all around(older models) in a 5.1 configuration. All Speakers set to small, crossover 80hz.

                                          I'd say for most people the Velo is probably adequate but as you know there are those of us that seek that extra 10-15% though I felt the difference was larger than that.

                                          ANother interesting list you might want to look at is the one going over at Hometheaterspot called "Why have a subwoofer shootout". The guy owned several of the top end subs and actually bought 2 HSU Vtf3's, 2 SVS Pb2+, and an Acoustic Visions Denali. IN the end when the #'s came down, he found that the SVS and the Denali were head to head but there was something there in the Denali down low that even the $1300 PB2+ couldn't deliver and I wonder if the Wood Finish had somehting to do with that too He did find that the 2 Hsu's while nice and would suffice for most folks isn't in the same league bass wise as the Pb2+ or the Denali.

                                          Luckily my wife is not too worried about the big black box of an SVS sitting in the corner so I'm safe. If not I'd have to pony up the cash to go for the Denali($1,800). if I wanted the same level of boom

                                          Comment

                                          • Sonnie Parker
                                            • Jan 2002
                                            • 2858

                                            #22
                                            Thanks again Shane...

                                            I wonder what it would have been like comparing 2 HGS-15's to the 2 SVS's?

                                            Well as I mentioned before the main reason I went with the HGS-15 is the size and WAF. The HT shared the great room and she was none too happy when I showed her pics of the SVS cylinders. I came ever so close to buying one and it was at the time about $700 less money. Now that we have a dedicated HT room the size or shape really matters not.

                                            I may consider buying an SVS PC+ 20-39 just for the heck of it and for comparison in our HT room.

                                            I'm sure for me the HGS-15 would be all I'd ever need as I don't watch movies or listen to music at extreme levels... but I can see it being a lot of fun playing around and learning more about what the different subs can do.






                                            SONNIE

                                            Cedar Creek Cinema

                                            DVD Collection

                                            BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                            Comment

                                            • Shane Martin
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Apr 2001
                                              • 2852

                                              #23
                                              I wonder what it would have been like comparing 2 HGS-15's to the 2 SVS's?
                                              Tought call there. The cost ratio between the 2 would be substantial. If you wanted dual svs's then you have your pick but if I was going dual svs's I'd be considering:

                                              Dual PB2+ <-- Box subwoofer with 2 12"s and 1000 watt amp :$1,200 each
                                              PC ULtra: Ultra tube driver with parametric room eq and 550 watt amp : $1k each
                                              25-31 CS+ < Essentially a tube version of the PB2+ and then you'd use a Samson S1000 for $1,500 total. This is the setup Im most familiar with compared to the Velo.

                                              Not a real apples to apples comparison but otherwise It would be fun!
                                              ell as I mentioned before the main reason I went with the HGS-15 is the size and WAF. The HT shared the great room and she was none too happy when I showed her pics of the SVS cylinders
                                              Neither is my wife but the Box versions have fixed that caveat
                                              I'm sure for me the HGS-15 would be all I'd ever need as I don't watch movies or listen to music at extreme levels... but I can see it being a lot of fun playing around and learning more about what the different subs can do.
                                              Probably right but who knows for certain until you try it.

                                              On a side note I will probably use your Behringer guide because I will probably add one later. Your theater is looking good too!

                                              Comment

                                              • Sonnie Parker
                                                • Jan 2002
                                                • 2858

                                                #24
                                                Yeah... you are right... money wise it wouldn't be anywhere close to equal with the cost of the HGS series being so high.

                                                I wanna say SVS might have had their box versions on the drawing board back when I got my HGS.... or that might have been HSU... I can't remember.

                                                Yep... the BFD can make a solid difference in what you hear as well. If you need any help with that let me know... I'll be around.

                                                Thanks on the theater. I've got a better camera now and have simply procrastinated at taking the time to snap some better shots of our room. But really I'm waiting on permanently moving my side surrounds and dressing up the existing holes. Then I'm planning some experiments on trapping bass via surgery on the walls (rear seating is a little bass heavy although I have it worked out fairly well it's with some sacrifice in the sweet spot). I'd could just leave everything alone and probably be content but then what would I piddle with? (NO ANSWERS PLEASE!)






                                                SONNIE

                                                Cedar Creek Cinema

                                                DVD Collection

                                                BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

                                                Comment

                                                • David Meek
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 8938

                                                  #25
                                                  Sonnie, thanks for posting Tom's list. I was looking for it but couldn't run it down. Point being, that the servo-controlled FSR-15 comes in at 109.1 dB output for the 25-62 Hz average, and has substantial output at 16 Hz. The servo's CAN go low and loud, but like all things A/V, you have to be careful what you audition.




                                                  David - HTGuide flunky
                                                  Our "Theater"
                                                  Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                                                  .

                                                  David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Sonnie Parker
                                                    • Jan 2002
                                                    • 2858

                                                    #26
                                                    You are quite welcome David. Here's the complete list.

                                                    I think the FSR-15 has been there for a while hasn't it?

                                                    The Velo's make a big appearance but the HGS series is on the expensive side.

                                                    The Adire Dharman at $599 is a swell bargain for a box design in my opinion and look at that 96db at 20hz. With only a 280 watt amp that is remarkable that it can hang in there and be one of the best. The stats compare equally to the HGS-15 for over a $1000 less money.

                                                    Then we have the SVS PB1-ISD at $599 that hasn't made the list yet.






                                                    SONNIE

                                                    Cedar Creek Cinema

                                                    DVD Collection

                                                    BFD Comprehensive Setup Guide

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