Sonus Faber Toy Series

[crzycuyler]

Hello,

I have had a crush on Sonus Faber for a while now and need some help. A while back, I demoed the Sonus Faber Toy monitors when I was looking for a bookshelf speaker. I went with B&W 685s and have never stopped thinking about the Sonus Fabers. I feel that I may have made a mistake. It was clear me that they are better speakers, but I wasn't sure how they'd hold up in home theater or with heavier music, as they have smaller drivers. I was wondering if anyone with experience could share with me how they think the Sonus Faber Toy towers (I no longer need bookshelf speakers) would hold up with faster and heavy music/home theater/video game needs. Primary use is for music such as bluegrass and folk music. Any words of advice? Can anyone convince me to highly consider another more involved audition?

Thanks a ton!

[wkhanna]

Welcome to the forum, crzycuyler!

The only way to make an informed decision is obviously to audition potential candidates under the same circumstances.

Ultimately, it is you who will decide what ‘sounds’ best.

If, however, you place more priority on satisfying a lustful craving……..well then……I suppose I can appreciate that on certain levels, too. You may find after spending time with the SF’s that it is more important that you have them than how they sound. I mean, they are a V good looking speaker.

Buyer’s remorse is an awful thing, especially when associated with the V personal aspects of audio equipment. I have seen others to whom it is more important what they have as opposed to how it sounds. To each his own & what ever cranks your truck. It is not my money.

My advice is to first positively determine your priority. Will the speaker that sounds the best make you feel as good as looking at the SF’s?

[crzycuyler]

My desire for this speaker is not based on aesthetics. I am only interested for the sound. I remember enjoying them, but fearing they would not handle all my needs. Now I have the B&W 685s and feel that they excel at nothing but are a good value speaker. Most importantly, I am concerned with the value of the speakers. I can get the speakers brand new for %40-%50 off. But I can do the same with most Martin Logan, B&W, and Monitor Audio speakers. I feel the need to have some research done before I travel and audition the speakers. I may have different tastes, but finding a general consensus couldn't hurt too much.

[madmac]

Gosh.....speakers are such a personal thing. All I can say is once you approach the $2-3K
range of speakers, there is a law of diminishing returns. There's a lot of folks here on the forum that are using $15K speakers. I have heard those speakers in showrooms and they are good but are they $15K better than my $2.5K one's??. No.

You just have to figure out your budget and audition speakers in your price range and choose what you like. Be advised however that they will sound very different in your home than in the showroom. But.....if they sounded good in the show room to your ears, you will very likely like them once they are installed properly in your home.

Good luck !!

ps...Please be advised that this is a very B&W heavy forum speaker wise!!

[crzycuyler]

Thanks. I can get the SF Toy Towers (pair) for $1,500. What is thought of this price?

[stuofsci02]

What are you using to power your 685?

[crzycuyler]

Denon AVR 3312
I'm thinking of grabbing an Emotiva XPA-5 if I upgrade speakers.

[stuofsci02]

I am surprised by your comment "Now I have the B&W 685s and feel that they excel at nothing but are a good value speaker".

It is generally accepted that the 685 provide a large sounds stage for their size, great dynamics and quite an impressive midrange while maintaining a very balanced sound..

While I am sure the AVR is not doing them any favors, it should be adequate.

What did you audition these with?

[wkhanna]

My desire for this speaker is not based on aesthetics. I am only interested for the sound.

OK

I remember enjoying them, but fearing they would not handle all my needs.

What specifically were you afraid of?
What are your specific needs?

Now I have the B&W 685s and feel that they excel at nothing but are a good value speaker.

A speaker that does nothing wrong yet excels at nothing is a V balanced and neutral speaker. To me, there is great value in such an animal. Not many speakers meet what on the surface appears so seemingly simple a goal.

Most importantly, I am concerned with the value of the speakers. I can get the speakers brand new for %40-%50 off. But I can do the same with most Martin Logan, B&W, and Monitor Audio speakers.

By value, you mean obtaining the highest discount possible?

I feel the need to have some research done before I travel and audition the speakers. I may have different tastes, but finding a general consensus couldn't hurt too much.

Each brand has somewhat of a “house” sound. And some may tend to work ever-so-slightly better at one genre. But for the most part, a good speaker is a good speaker and should perform well with all music.

If you can audition the speakers then do so. Don't worry so much what others think right now. Go listen to them, then tell us what you liked and what you did not like.

[crzycuyler]

What specifically were you afraid of?
What are your specific needs?

As mentioned, I will primarily be listening to bluegrass and folk but will certainly be using the speakers for home theater and gaming as well as occasional hard rock, dubstep, and other fast paced music. My gut feeling is that they will handle bluegrass well but I am not sure of the latter needs.

A speaker that does nothing wrong yet excels at nothing is a V balanced and neutral speaker. To me, there is great value in such an animal. Not many speakers meet what on the surface appears so seemingly simple a goal.

Characteristics of a natural, neutral, and accurate speaker are very important to me. This is not what I am referring to. I speak of soundstage and detail. Yes I fully believe the 685s have great value, but I could use a little bit more. I am a very analytical listener. I'm not bashing them. You get what you pay for, if not more. I'm just developing an ear and opinion.

By value, you mean obtaining the highest discount possible?

I do not. Value is determined by price (performance/price if you will). The lower the price, the better the value. This does not mean discounted speakers give the best value, but they are certainly of better value than what you pay at the original price for that specific model.

Each brand has somewhat of a “house” sound. And some may tend to work ever-so-slightly better at one genre. But for the most part, a good speaker is a good speaker and should perform well with all music.

Agreed. The reason for my search.

[stuofsci02]

Just as a point of reference.. For the price of the Toys you are into B&W CM5 territory.. The 685 as good as it is, is not the B&W speaker to compare to.

[crzycuyler]

Just as a point of reference.. For the price of the Toys you are into B&W CM5 territory.. The 685 as good as it is, is not the B&W speaker to compare to.

I've spent plenty of time with the CM5 and do not feel that if offers enough over the 685 to be justifiable. Looking at your setup, I see you have B&W 804. I am a pretty big fan of that 800 series, I just don't much care for the CM series. Have you by any chance heard the Sonus Faber Toy series? If so, what is your take on them?

[stuofsci02]

I've spent plenty of time with the CM5 and do not feel that if offers enough over the 685 to be justifiable. Looking at your setup, I see you have B&W 804. I am a pretty big fan of that 800 series, I just don't much care for the CM series. Have you by any chance heard the Sonus Faber Toy series? If so, what is your take on them?

I have not heard the SF Toy series, so I cannot comment on them..

Actually I have 804s, but I also have a pair of CM7 as well..

I can say for certain, having owned 600 series speakers in the past, including the 683s, that the CM series for me with my equipment was a huge step up.. I can say that for me, my CM7 are closer to my 804s then they are to the 683s. Every now and again I pull my 804s out and put my CM7 in their place and I am blown away by how good they sound (my CM7 are currently not doing anything because of my 18 month old son, so I do not have my second system setup).

The 600 series is an excellent performance/price speaker that outpeform so many other speakers in their price range. They do so many things right, and not too many things wrong. But when I compare them to the CM series, they are a little bloated, way more colored and not as open. But these are things I learned to listen for over time, and now having the 804s are easy to pick out on lesser speakers. That does not make the 600 series bad, just built to a price..

If I had to listen to CM5 vs. 685 on different equipment, in different rooms and on different days it might be hard to spot the differences. The CM5 is like a 805 with a bit of compromise.

[wkhanna]

Characteristics of a natural, neutral, and accurate speaker are very important to me. This is not what I am referring to. I speak of soundstage and detail. Yes I fully believe the 685s have great value, but I could use a little bit more. I am a very analytical listener. I'm not bashing them. You get what you pay for, if not more. I'm just developing an ear and opinion.

Bravo!

Please forgive me if I appear to come across a bit course and brazen.
I am simply trying to get a better understanding of your goals.

IMHO, you will see a more significant improvement in detail and soundstage with an upgrade in your electronics as opposed to speakers at this point.

Again, IMHO, I feel the real ‘value’ for you may be in pursuit of a better pre & amp or a more capable integrated as opposed to speakers.

Just some food for thought. :W

[crzycuyler]

IMHO, you will see a more significant improvement in detail and soundstage with an upgrade in your electronics as opposed to speakers at this point.

Again, IMHO, I feel the real ‘value’ for you may be in pursuit of a better pre & amp or a more capable integrated as opposed to speakers.

Just some food for thought. :W

Despite the direction I take with speakers, I plan to buy an XPA-5 from Emotiva. What is thought of this? I would use the AVR 3312 as a pre for a while. I guess the best comparison is CM9 ($1600/pair) vs SF Toy Tower($1450/pair). I get pretty mad discounts. Of course it all comes down to opinions, but I can't not ask.

My listening is 50/50, music and movies.

stuofsci02, what can you suggest about setting up the B&W speakers. I've experimented but could try more positioning. What does your triangle look like? Are the speakers closer or farther from each other than they are from your listening position? Do you toe in your speakers? If so, approximately how much? Space from the walls? Acoustic treatment and room correction? Do you believe in nicer speaker cables? Would this be different if I am intending to set this up for multiple listeners? Overload, I know. Thanks in advance for any questions answered.

[stuofsci02]

Despite the direction I take with speakers, I plan to buy an XPA-5 from Emotiva. What is thought of this? I would use the AVR 3312 as a pre for a while. I guess the best comparison is CM9 ($1600/pair) vs SF Toy Tower($1450/pair). I get pretty mad discounts. Of course it all comes down to opinions, but I can't not ask.

My listening is 50/50, music and movies.

stuofsci02, what can you suggest about setting up the B&W speakers. I've experimented but could try more positioning. What does your triangle look like? Are the speakers closer or farther from each other than they are from your listening position? Do you toe in your speakers? If so, approximately how much? Space from the walls? Acoustic treatment and room correction? Do you believe in nicer speaker cables? Would this be different if I am intending to set this up for multiple listeners? Overload, I know. Thanks in advance for any questions answered.

I think the XPA-5 is a fine choice.. I have found Emotiva gear to be excellent and great value. Certainly enough for the speakers you are talking about.. I would consider a proper two channel pre-amp. Since you are already talking Emotiva, I would suggest their USP-1. I think this would make a huge difference for you over your AVR as a preamp.. More IMO then your speaker choice..

I have my speakers 10 ft apart from each other and 10 ft from my listening position (equal triangle). I have them slightly toed in. They are 36" from the back wall and 30" from the side wall.. I do have acoustic treatment, and this made the biggest difference of anything I have ever done (highly recommened).

But a picture is worth a thousand words:







And for giggles, here is my room when I was just setting things up and had the CM7 and the 804s going..

[crzycuyler]

Very nice setup, friend! That's truly gorgeous! ;x(

I am quite limited on space... Do you feel that even though I will be doing surround sound for sure in the future, I should still invest in a stereo pre over a good surround pre? I really appreciate your help!

[stuofsci02]

Very nice setup, friend! That's truly gorgeous! ;x(

I am quite limited on space... Do you feel that even though I will be doing surround sound for sure in the future, I should still invest in a stereo pre over a good surround pre? I really appreciate your help!

Thanks...

Given the fact that you placed a 50% emphasis on music I would definately go for a proper analog preamp (with a HT bypass of course)... This will be far better then using your AVR as a preamp..

In fact if I was in your situation, rather then buy the XPA-5, I would consider getting something like the XPA-3 with a USP-1 and let your AVR do the surround speaker power when you have those speakers and use the other channel of the XPA-3 for your center..

In fact I might even go a step further and get an XPA-2 or two UPA-1's and let the AVR cover the center and rears for the time being, and if it is not enough for the center consider another UPA-1..

I am using a UPA-1 on my HTM3S and it is more then up to task.

[crzycuyler]

I think that the UPA-1 idea suits my liking the most if I were to stray from the XPA-5. Do you not think the XPA-5 is sufficient?

I've also been eyeing the oppo bdp-95 recently as both a DAC, cd player, and bluray player. What do you think? I can get a tremendous discount on this as well. I am struggling to see how to integrate DACs in systems =/ I use the airplay function on the 3312, but I know that every step of the way there are compromises with the 3312. Im just a tad confused how to add a DAC and play my stuff.

[stuofsci02]

I think that the UPA-1 idea suits my liking the most if I were to stray from the XPA-5. Do you not think the XPA-5 is sufficient?

I've also been eyeing the oppo bdp-95 recently as both a DAC, cd player, and bluray player. What do you think? I can get a tremendous discount on this as well. I am struggling to see how to integrate DACs in systems =/ I use the airplay function on the 3312, but I know that every step of the way there are compromises with the 3312. Im just a tad confused how to add a DAC and play my stuff.

I think the XPA-5 would be very sufficient.. I am just not sure you would notice huge gains vs. using the AVR amps for the rears.. If you listen to a lot of 5.1 music and plan to do equal speakers all around then the XPA-5 might make more sense.. If it is just for movies, you might get better bang for the buck putting the money into something else.

I would highly recommend the Oppo-95. I have the Oppo-83SE which was the predecessor to the 95 and have been very satisfied.. I don't think there is more unanimous support on this forum then for the Oppo-95.. It is an excellent SACD, DVD-A, CD player as well as being a world class bluray player.. You really cannot go wrong here...

I am not too familiar with the airplay on the 3312, but you might be able to use the network capability of the Oppo-95 to do something similar.. If this does not cut it, then something like the Squeezebox Touch surely will..

[bigburner]

I plan to buy an XPA-5 from Emotiva. What is thought of this?

Excellent idea crzycuyler. I am using an XPA-2 to drive a pair of 803Ds and it's doing a fine job. You'll find a very good review of the XPA-5 here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-51

Nigel.

[bigburner]

I've also been eyeing the oppo bdp-95 recently as both a DAC, cd player, and bluray player. What do you think?

Another excellent idea. I bought one recently and I'm not experiencing any buyer remorse at all! My review of its analogue output is here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=39483

Nigel.

[madmac]

I think that the UPA-1 idea suits my liking the most if I were to stray from the XPA-5. Do you not think the XPA-5 is sufficient?

I've also been eyeing the oppo bdp-95 recently as both a DAC, cd player, and bluray player. What do you think? I can get a tremendous discount on this as well. I am struggling to see how to integrate DACs in systems =/ I use the airplay function on the 3312, but I know that every step of the way there are compromises with the 3312. Im just a tad confused how to add a DAC and play my stuff.

I reviewed the Oppo 95 on this forum awhile ago. You can find it here in the forum if you go into the historical posts. It's a fine player with a very detailed almost analog type of sound. I found the vocals a tad laid back compared to my higher end Marantz player, which puts the vocalist forward from the sound stage. The oppo 95 puts it back with the band. For me, that's a bit of a deal breaker.

[crzycuyler]

If I had a stereo pre amp, how would I use surround sound? Would I have to move cables around?

The oppo-95 is beginning to make me drool. Luckily, this too I can receive at nearly half price.

[stuofsci02]

You would need a preamp with a HT bypass.. The USP-1 for example has this. Go have a look at the USP-1 manual on how to set it up, but it is basically a unity gain input.. What goes in comes out...

[crzycuyler]

I see. This is interesting. Does this bypass affect the surround sound experience at all? I know the bypass disables all USP-1 functions, but does running equipment through this cause any potential delay for the front speakers?

If not, this looks promising. I am very interested. I would need interconnects, correct? I get %75 off from audioquest, so are there any recommendations with that company?

My current system:
-AVR 3312
-B&W 685 (pair)
-B&W ASW610
-Rocketfish 16 gauge speaker cable
-PS3
-MacBook Pro using airplay

From what we've discussed, are these steps in this order the most reasonable:
-Oppo BDP-95 (or a different source)
-XPA-5 (or a different amp)
-USP-1 (or a different stereo pre amp, and sell AVR 3312)
-Surround sound processor (future)
-Surround sound speakers (future)

Does this make sense? Also, where would you prioritize acoustic treatment in the room? Does the oppo send video through HDMI while sending stereo analoge audio? What if instead of the USP-1, I bought a XMC-1? Could it be that this model is more effective even at stereo processing than the USP-1?

[stuofsci02]

There is no delay.. Basically the HT bypass work like a piece of wire added.. Nothing more.. You will run the main outs and subout from your AVR through the preamp HT bypass on the stereo preamp.. This will allow you to use your mains and sub in pure stereo with the preamp, but also as part of the HT setup with your AVR or pre/pro.

I think the steps you list is a great start.. You could reverse the first two as well.. Coin flip IMO..

Cheers!

[crzycuyler]

I'm a little confused about the oppo bdp-95. Is this also a pre/processor? Do you connect this directly to an amp from the channel outputs or to a pre?

[stuofsci02]

I'm a little confused about the oppo bdp-95. Is this also a pre/processor? Do you connect this directly to an amp from the channel outputs or to a pre?

No... Although it does have a digital volume control you should not really use it as a preamp or prepro and connect it directly to your amps.

You would either run the Oppo HDMI output to the HDMI input on an AVR/prepro or if you want to use the multichannel DACs inside the Oppo you would run the Multichannel analog outputs into the Multichannel analog inputs on your AVR/Prepro. You would select which you would do, by which is the better decoder, and which has the features you want (bass management etc.)..

In either case you will always run the stereo outputs on the Oppo to the CD input (or other input) on your stereo preamp. This is the only way to make use of the Oppo's excellent analog stereo outputs.

[bigburner]

I'm a little confused about the oppo bdp-95. Is this also a pre/processor?

I suggest you have a look at the manual. There's lots of cross dressing between components these days.

http://download.oppodigital.com/BDP95/BDP-95_English_Manual_v1.5.1.pdf

Nigel.

[madmac]

If I had a stereo pre amp, how would I use surround sound? Would I have to move cables around?

The oppo-95 is beginning to make me drool. Luckily, this too I can receive at nearly half price.

If you can get the Oppo BDP-95 at half price......I say GO FOR IT !! :T

Other than it's great DAC's, it has state of the art BD performance and will play ANYTHING you put into it!!!

[crzycuyler]

Would there be any way to work the oppo in collaboration with itunes? apple tv? airplay? direct connection? ethernet? any way?

Also, my avr does not have multichannel inputs =/ ive read the oppo 93 is the choice if you are to use the hdmi output... but ofcourse my avr has stereo inputs. if i were to use this, would it be worth it?

thanks for all the advice

[stuofsci02]

The Oppo-95 can do ethernet connection.

Really the reason to go for the 95 over the 93 is if you are using it as a CD/SACD/DVD-A player for music and want the better quality from the Oppo's analog stereo outputs. Do not run the stereo outputs from the analog Oppo to the stereo inputs on a AVR.. AVR's tend to redigitize the inputs which makes the Oppo pointless. You want to keep it analog after it comes out of the Oppo... Even if your AVR has a passthough they tend not to be that great..

Cheers

[crzycuyler]

So you are saying to go oppo to amp? problem would be, i dont have a seperate amp at the moment. Also, in this case the oppo handles volume control? this sounds odd. Would this be different if i had something like the USP-1. Would you run the oppo into that?

Also, are there any recommendations for certain acoustic paneling? I need to work on room treatment before anything else.

[stuofsci02]

My recommendations are assuming you already have an external amp and analog preamp like the USP-1.. If you want to get the Oppo now and continue using the AVR, you have no choice but to use the AVR stereo inputs or the HDMI..

Not sure on acoustic panels.. I built my own.. They are simple to make..

Cheers..

[madmac]

So you are saying to go oppo to amp? problem would be, i dont have a seperate amp at the moment. Also, in this case the oppo handles volume control? this sounds odd. Would this be different if i had something like the USP-1. Would you run the oppo into that?

Also, are there any recommendations for certain acoustic paneling? I need to work on room treatment before anything else.

I say get the Oppo 95 anyway if you are getting it half price!. You are future compatible in any case. Are you saying that your TV does not have a HDMI input?. Also, don't worry if your receiver or amp 'digitalizes' the sound out of the Oppo. It's still going to sound amazing!!.

[crzycuyler]

Not sure on acoustic panels.. I built my own.. They are simple to make..

Cheers..

Thy look well made. Did you follow instructions found online and would you happen to know where I can find them? I'd like to have about 24 x 48 panels.

I say get the Oppo 95 anyway if you are getting it half price!. You are future compatible in any case. Are you saying that your TV does not have a HDMI input?. Also, don't worry if your receiver or amp 'digitalizes' the sound out of the Oppo. It's still going to sound amazing!!.

I'd like to grab it, as what I am using right now is airplay... therefore the 3312s DAC is in use. I don't much care for that. My TV has an HDMI, I'll be set.

Thanks for the help. I'm new to pre/pro and amp. I'm a college kid working at Best Buy and have been rewarded with unique discounts. Still, I've got to be careful spending money. Thats why I'm chasing a mix of high-end value. I don't want to settle lower in performance just because its a great value. I want to make it count the first time and not regret passing up a chance on some great equipment. Even with my discounts, I've turned to Emotiva equipment because they offer what I cannot get ahold of. My options come from almost anything on bestbuy.com and magnoliaav.com.

Thanks again.

[stuofsci02]

Nah... I designed my own, but it is very simple.. The only thing you need is Owens Corning 703 (which comes in 24x48 sheets and 2" thick), and 1x4" pine, and a sound permeable fabric of your choice. Some screws help too...

But again a picture is worth a thousand words...

[wkhanna]

........would you happen to know where I can find them?

I have no vested interest or experience with either of these companies:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51H946793&rnd=5625728&rrc=N&affl=&cip=24.239.101.12&act=&aff=

http://www.readyacoustics.com/

[crzycuyler]

After reviewing what we've covered, I noticed that I've been recommended to purchase units that in themselves surpass the cost of the speakers I own. Add it all together and the price is many times the cost of the speakers. Has someone forgot to mention something or did we get carried away?

My setup:
-AVR 3312
-B&W 685
-B&W ASW610
-PS3

Need a speaker upgrade? Sonus Faber Toy Towers? B&W 683s/CM9s?

[stuofsci02]

After reviewing what we've covered, I noticed that I've been recommended to purchase units that in themselves surpass the cost of the speakers I own. Add it all together and the price is many times the cost of the speakers. Has someone forgot to mention something or did we get carried away?

My setup:
-AVR 3312
-B&W 685
-B&W ASW610
-PS3

Need a speaker upgrade? Sonus Faber Toy Towers? B&W 683s/CM9s?

This is the reality of a stereo system.. The speakers are only one component of several required to put the system together..

[crzycuyler]

Question for the oppo bdp-95 informed. does this have an asynchronous mode USB DAC or just adaptive mode?

[stuofsci02]

Question for the oppo bdp-95 informed. does this have an asynchronous mode USB DAC or just adaptive mode?

Not sure what you mean.. The BDP-95 is not a USB DAC... It does not have any external method to access the internal DACs..

[crzycuyler]

What is the USB and eSata for?

[Chris D]

Wow, this suddenly became a hot thread! I haven't read through the whole thing, but those are some gorgeous pictures.