IPTV, DL Media, PVR's and other reasons why the "HD Format War" is a moot point.

[aud19]

As mentioned in the HTG official High Definition high octane DVD format war thread, I've decided to start this thread on the various technologies, compression formats, delivery methods etc which will (IMO) make the HD-optical discs and their "war" a moot point.

Please feel free to add any links, information or discussion you feel appropriate and worthwhile.

Here's a nice little device named one of Popular Science's "Best of What's New 2007" It's a Multi-room HD-DVR that uses your homes existing cable lines to connect the main unit to smaller "Moxi Mates" in secondary rooms. It can also connect to your home network to access pictures, audio etc.

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/flat/bown/2007/homeent/item_72.html

http://www.moxi.com/get-moxi/multi-room-overview.aspx

Here's some other links on TV over the internet:

http://billstarnaud.blogspot.com/2007/05/more-on-abc-streaming-hd-video-move.html

The first link talks about a Bit-Torrent style "mesh" for a delivery method:

http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/18284/?a=f

http://www.tvover.net/2006/02/21/Pete+Ianace+Describes+The+Future+Of+IPTV+And+The+Rise+Of+Internet+TV+In+TMC.aspx

http://www.americasnetwork.com/americasnetwork/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=352924

a white paper:

http://www.convergedigest.com/whitepapers/documents/Laurel-IPTV.pdf

Great IPTV web resource:

http://www.iptv-news.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

[Hdale85]

I agree that eventually this will be the norm... But I think we are a good 5+ years off for more then one thing. Not only is the bandwidth a problem but DRM is a huge issue and I doubt people are going to be willing to give up optical media if they can only keep a movie for 3 days or what not.

[littlesaint]

I agree that eventually this will be the norm... But I think we are a good 5+ years off for more then one thing. Not only is the bandwidth a problem but DRM is a huge issue and I doubt people are going to be willing to give up optical media if they can only keep a movie for 3 days or what not.

Agreed. The bandwidth is just not there yet for uncompressed HD over the Internet. The various fiber-to-the-home initiatives and multicast designs going on are a step in the right direction, but at least in the US, HD downloads or streaming is still several years away. I'm not sure DRM will be a problem because controlled downloads and streaming is actually easier to manage than stand-alone optical media. Film and video is generally not a portable platform so there shouldn't be as much of an issue with fair use restrictions as there is with music. The current HD platforms have the technology in place that allows "backing up" HD discs, but limits re-distribution. It shouldn't be too hard to extend this to downloadable content.

[Race Car Driver]

I agree that eventually this will be the norm... But I think we are a good 5+ years off for more then one thing. Not only is the bandwidth a problem but DRM is a huge issue and I doubt people are going to be willing to give up optical media if they can only keep a movie for 3 days or what not.

Agreed. I like having discs, something of substance. Dunno, guess thats why I have always bought cds/movies instead of renting/downloading etc.

[Hdale85]

Well the video services that are already in place (iTunes store?) have high DRM'd video files just like their music. You can't transfer it to other devices and what not and a lot of it has an expiration date if I recall correctly. I'm not into paying for media and then going back a month later and having to pay for it again because I want to watch it. Another problem is storage on a home device. Especially as HD becomes more the standard. A 1080p video at minimum is going to be 10-20 gigs. With current media limits the biggest amount of space an IPTV box could have would be something like 2TB's I'd say. So realistically I'm going to say they will be like 20 gigs per movie. Thats 100 movies on a 2TB IPTV box? Who here has less then 100 movies? I'm sure they would have to make some new lossy compressions but who knows if they will be up to quality and what not.

[littlesaint]

You also have to consider what the market will tolerate. If a compression technology emerges that the general public will accept, you may see video go the same route as music, which IMO would be unfortunate. Of course, I would hope people would be a lot less tolerant of compression when you consider a $3000 display versus a $200 mp3 player.

On the Xbox 360, an HD movie rental is 720p with 5.1 DD audio and weighs in at 4-5GB. Takes about a day to download, and you have 24hrs to watch it after it downloads.

With Netflix, I get 1080p HD-DVDs, with uncompressed audio in most cases. It takes about two days at most to receive if there's no wait, and I return it when I like.

I've yet to download a movie on my Xbox 360.

[aud19]

Well you guys seem to think all of this is at a standstill :lol: Technology does evolve and very quickly. There's already better compression schemes than mpeg for movies which could and would certainly be used, the increased fibre networks you mentioned are also going to continue being rolled out, not to mention hybrid server/mesh delivery systems that are nothing like today's downloadable media that require major infrastructure and choke speeds on the current server to user model. The technology's already available TODAY for reasonably quick, high quality media to be delivered to your home digitially. It just needs to be put together. In 5 years it will be even more readily available, quicker, better etc.

Dougie, i agree this is not going to start taking over for 5+ years but in that time frame neither HD format is projected to overtake anything and SD-DVD is expected, by a large margin, to be the predominant physical format. That would make the HD formats today's laserdisc IMO, Great to enjoy for those who can afford to indulge in it but not a format for the long term IMO. The only thing I see knock DVD off it's perch is next generation on demand entertainment. Whether that's IPTV, on demand programming, video over the internet, some mix of them or something else altogether remains to be seen but it won't be a physical media as far as I'm concerned. I too prefer physical media, I've yet to download one song and still buy CD's! :lol: But good or bad it's the way the world is going with regards to media and to think otherwise is to bury your head in the sand.

And everything I've seen points to being able to "rent" media for a periods of days as you mention or "buy" it for the long term for a higher dollar amount. Just like discs today. This whole notion you'll never be able to amass a library or view things long term is just false. As for data storage it's cheap now and cheaper every day. In 5 years do you really think 2TB will be uncommon? 1TB isn't even uncommon now. 2TB will probably be low, entry level equipment in 5 years :lol:

[Hdale85]

Well I know in 5 years it will all be a moot point but I'm talking about now. And the videos you can buy online are still DRM'd so that you can't transfer to other devices and what not. And I think if its being downloaded it should cost less also. For starters the studio is getting paid more because they aren't having to print it onto media and what not. And so far it's not the case they are the same price as buying a DVD from what I've seen. I know eventually all this will be the norm but a lot of people seem to think that digital media is going to be the norm in a couple years and I just can't see that happening.

[aud19]

No, for sure it won't even start to be the "norm" for 5'ish years. But it will start and eventually become the norm. I just can't see myself investing on what is basically already a dead format (or two formats) knowing that before they even get close to taking over as the "standard" that they'll be dead in the water. I mean positive reports have them at around 40% of physical movie media in 5+ years with DVD having closer to 60% still and then this stuff is coming along. Sound like a good investment to you?

[Hdale85]

Well just depends on what you enjoy I really like watching HD content.. so I purchased a player.. 300-400 dollars over 5 years thats really not that horrible. And its not like after all this happens you can't watch your HD movies still.

[aud19]

per player, plus discs..etc Not hard to spend more on media than the player :lol: Honestly the only way I'd buy any HD player was if a I needed a new player in general as most upsample SD-DVD well. Then I'd maybe rent HD discs but there's no way I'd buy any personally.

[littlesaint]

per player, plus discs..etc Not hard to spend more on media than the player :lol: Honestly the only way I'd buy and HD player was if a I needed a new player in general as most upsample SD-DVD well. Then I'd maybe rent HD discs but there's no way I'd buy any personally.

That's probably the only reason I bought an XA2. I was looking for a new DVD player and it came highly recommended for SD-DVD. I rent HD-DVDs from Netflix and if the improvement over SD is significant, I'll replace it in my library.

[aud19]

Lookie what Apple announced:

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hvMegd0reWWr2UEJKaYIS-mc5Puw

Apple to launch movie rentals from iTunes platform

SAN FRANCISCO (AFP) — Apple launched an online movie rental service on Tuesday, banking that its ubiquitous iPods and iPhones will let it break into a market dominated by Blockbuster and Netflix.

"Today we introduce iTunes Movie Rentals," Apple's chief executive Steve Jobs said at the opening of the annual Macworld Expo in San Francisco.

The list of studios that will make films available for online rental via iTunes includes Sony, Universal, Paramount, Walt Disney, Warner Brothers, and 20th Century Fox.

Older films will rent for 2.99 dollars and new releases will rent for 3.99 dollars, according to Jobs. The service will launch with more than 1,000 titles by the end of February, Jobs said.

"We are rolling this out in the US starting today and internationally later this year," Jobs said. "We are dying to get this international as well."

People will be able to view films on any make of home computer as well as on video-enabled iPods and iPhones. After downloading rented films, people will have 30 days to begin watching them.

Once someone has started watching a film, they can view it as many times as they want for 24 hours.

"We've never offered a rental model in music because we think people don't want to rent their favorite music, they want to own it," Jobs said. "But, your favorite movie you watch maybe once."

ITunes sold its four billionth song last week, and set a new one-day record on Christmas Day, selling 20 million songs online, according to Apple.

The company reports selling approximately seven million movies and 125 million television shows through iTunes to date.

Jobs also announced a revamped Apple TV model that links directly to the Internet, bypassing computers, and plays movies rented online. High density films for Apple TV viewing will be available for a dollar more per rental.

"Apple has created an incredibly easy and innovative way to rent and enjoy movies," said Jim Gianopulos, chairman and chief executive officer of Fox Filmed Entertainment, in an Apple statement.

An iTunes movie rental service backed by film studios and Apple TV software that takes computers out of the viewing equation combine into a powerful offering from the company, Creative Strategies analyst Tim Bajarin told AFP.

"When Steve came to us it was a no-brainer," Gianopulos said. "There have been VOD (video on demand) models before, but Apple's will be transformative."

Apple also cut the price of Apple TV, which has had disappointing sales, to 229 dollars.

"With the free software upgrade, Apple TV has gone from a computer extender to a smart front-end of the television," Bajarin said. "It's what people want, a simple way to access online movies right from the couch."

The combination of Apple TV and iTunes movie rentals could cause the market for such "television adapters to take-off," according to Bajarin.

[Azeke]

Excellent news Jason. My family and I are certainly looking forward to this. I can watch via my new Itouch that I gave myself as a Christmas gift. I'm glad I bought the 16G version.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke

[aud19]

It certainly a big step in the end of physical media I say again, HD format war... who cares :lol:

No comments from all the nay-sayers? :

[Hdale85]

Like I said before this doesn't mean an end to physical media at least not any time soon.

[aud19]

Not "soon" as in the next couple years... for DVD anyway But it's certainly destined to be the next dominant format IMO.

[Hdale85]

Well of course but I think its going to take a while to adopt this...heck I still know people that don't even have a computer....let alone an iTV or anything that could do this. And then I know plenty that don't have a computer powerful enough to even do HD stuff. This is a ways off... at least 5 years. It might grow in popularity but its going to be a while before it becomes dominant.

[aud19]

Well of course but I think its going to take a while to adopt this...heck I still know people that don't even have a computer....

Addressed:

Jobs also announced a revamped Apple TV model that links directly to the Internet, bypassing computers, and plays movies rented online...

With the free software upgrade, Apple TV has gone from a computer extender to a smart front-end of the television," Bajarin said. "It's what people want, a simple way to access online movies right from the couch.

[Hdale85]

Yeah but like I said before.... how many people do you know that are actually interested in the iTV heck....I bet a lot of people don't even know what it is?

[aud19]

That won't take long to change

Here's another person who seems to agree with me:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/01/16/apple.format/

[Hdale85]

Well how about the fact that it doesn't support 1080p content? Was just reading over the specs... Seems the most it can do is 1280x720 as far as content although it will run at 1080p. So it will be upscaling all movies to 1080p rather then having native 1080p content.

[aud19]

I'm not saying it's perfect Dougie but it's really the first generation of it's ilk and as the format progresses you'll see higher resolutions, more available HD content etc. And 720p doesn't exactly look horrible FWIW.

[Hdale85]

Didn't say it looks horrible

[aud19]

Didn't say it looks horrible

Well for the large hoards of people that 720x480 and 2ch audio/"mediocre" 5.1 is "good enough" for I'm sure 1280x720 will hold most people over until the demand and technology are there for 1080p and beyond with higher resolution audio as well.

The nice thing with things like Apple TV is that in most cases simple software updates will allow existing units to remain up to date with changing formats etc longer than a traditional player will.

[littlesaint]

I'm going recant my earlier post that the bandwidth isn't going to be available. I work in IT, specifically networking, and Cisco is about to become more of a major player in media delivery over the Internet. The have acquired Scientific Atlantic and are working with major cable providers on technology to easily provide real HD content to the masses. At CES they announced the final spec for DOCSIS 3.0 which allows up to 150mbps of bandwidth over cable. More than enough to stream HD or allow for downloads in a matter of minutes.

The idea is that instead of broadcasting channels over cable as they are now, the frequencies are bonded into one big pipe, and content is streamed mostly as multicasts, but also on-demand and downloads. This way you only use the local bandwidth for what you are actually watching (and/or recording) instead of having every channel simultaneously using the entire spectrum. It will most likely utilize many of the technologies used on the Internet2 backbone which already has uninterrupted HD video streaming and will most likely require IPv6 for its multicasting capabilities.

[aud19]

It's all coming!

Thanks for the tidbit littlesaint :T

[PewterTA]

Which is why the removal of the analog signal from the network is such a big thing. It's going to free up a TON of space on the lines for HD content! :T

Also, I saw a big thing that the "disc" format is going to be gone here very shortly (within a year or two)...the new format... FLASH! They've got 2 TB flash drives coming in to production that are the same size as most 'normal' flash drives currently. Their cost to produce is still expensive now, but soon could be just as cost effect as the blu/hd version 2 discs. With 2 TB of space and a small compact format, what a PERFECT way to get a movie to you in a "beyond HD - 1080p" format.

[Chris D]

eh... I can definitely see this becoming the wave of the future someday, but... it's still a future someday thing. Good move, but we're not there, yet, so it's still an intermediate move.

[aud19]

eh... I can definitely see this becoming the wave of the future someday, but... it's still a future someday thing. Good move, but we're not there, yet, so it's still an intermediate move.

I agree it's not likely to be the best implementation of the format but it IS available now, today, not some far off future and future generations of players/media can only get better.

And if any company has the ability to transform the buying habits of the people and revolutionize a media format....

[aud19]

LG, Netflix announce plans for set-top movie download box

http://www.sltrib.com/healthscience/ci_8362804

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/8772.html

http://www.geek.com/lgnetflix-device-may-offer-downloadblu-rayhd-dvd-playback/

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6516458.html

http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/1/five_questions_about_lgs_netflix_movie_devices

http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/01/netflixlg-movie-deal-picking-winners-and-losers.html

http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/01/netflix-lg-link-up-for-settop-box-apple-tv-toast.html

[aud19]

Another good option for downloadable media:

http://www.vudu.com/product_overview.html

...and they've (finally) announced the ability to do multiroom distribution:

http://www.cepro.com/article/vudu_netstreams_deliver_multiroom_video_distribution/

[impala454]

So instead of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD or DVD vs Blu-ray we have: Netflix vs Vudu vs Blockbuster vs Cable On Demand vs etc etc etc. Some require a box, some don't. Some require high speed internet, some don't. Some are not even going to be available to a fair amount of people. Then of course we have the underlying DSL vs Cable vs Fiber vs every other internet service, because most of these services require internet. I don't mean to poop on your parade, just still seems very far fetched, and a lot more complicated than the optical disc format war we just went through. Let's see the Best Buy reps try and explain this deluge of options to their customers!

[littlesaint]

.... Let's see the Best Buy reps try and explain this deluge of options to their customers!

Since there's no money in it for them, I don't really see them pushing digital downloads at all.

[aud19]

So instead of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD or DVD vs Blu-ray we have: Netflix vs Vudu vs Blockbuster vs Cable On Demand vs etc etc etc. Some require a box, some don't. Some require high speed internet, some don't. Some are not even going to be available to a fair amount of people. Then of course we have the underlying DSL vs Cable vs Fiber vs every other internet service, because most of these services require internet. I don't mean to poop on your parade, just still seems very far fetched, and a lot more complicated than the optical disc format war we just went through. Let's see the Best Buy reps try and explain this deluge of options to their customers!

While things like cable/DSL/fibre are competing for your internet dollars they aren't really a format "war". They're simply competing information delivery versions, any of them will work for delivering info, movies or otherwise, unlike HD-DVD discs in a BD player for example. So the parrallels you're trying to draw are a bit far fetched IMO.

Otherwise think of it more like your neighborhood video store vs Blockbuster, Vs Netflix etc. The way I see it the whole process will slowly evolve in to the consumer electronics companies supplying "players"/storage and you'll be able to browse the titles and compare prices from the different "stores" (Apple, Vudu, Netflix etc)

[H.T.C]

Aud19 just because someone has 2-channel does not indicate they dont like good sound only not a lot of speakers.

There is very few discs that i want to have or room for,so downloading or rental is the better option and a we already knew it was coming and when was the last time hollywood or the music industry or even manufacturers asked for a hobbiests opinion hardly ever or never,they just cater to the lowest common denominator who are the general public who wants nothing more than quantity over quality,low recordings whatever.

Its sure great to have this 21 century (jetsons) tech but are old fashion 20 century homes need to be upgraded for these gismos that are coming and that cost money which many do not have and being green (enviro-friendly) is the de-facto standard or will be and adding more devices to are domains will not keep the cost of electricity low.

We should worry more about changing weather, biblical scenarios or political corruption instead how media is distributed.

[Hdale85]

Even the average joe can tell the difference between a poor HD recording. Diana's family hadn't even owned an HDTV up until recently and they came over one day and I was showing them a few stuff and they commented on how much better HD-DVD and Blu-Ray looked compared to some downloaded stuff and over the air stuff. So if the quality is not there I don't think it will be just us wanting more. I think this topic is better suited to audio because people do care what the quality of video looks like because nearly everyone can see it. Thats the whole point of HD is the picture quality.

[impala454]

While things like cable/DSL/fibre are competing for your internet dollars they aren't really a format "war". They're simply competing information delivery versions, any of them will work for delivering info, movies or otherwise, unlike HD-DVD discs in a BD player for example. So the parrallels you're trying to draw are a bit far fetched IMO.

But because high speed internet is required for these services you mention to run, it is most definitely part of the competition. Perhaps not really a "format" war, because it's all just TCPIP, but internet access is nowhere near standardized yet. Some people can't get very good speeds, while others are sitting on business grade T1s or fiber in their home.

Otherwise think of it more like your neighborhood video store vs Blockbuster, Vs Netflix etc. The way I see it the whole process will slowly evolve in to the consumer electronics companies supplying "players"/storage and you'll be able to browse the titles and compare prices from the different "stores" (Apple, Vudu, Netflix etc)

But it's still no better than the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray format war. Each company has their own box to buy and service to subscribe to. Only now you have to have either wireless internet or a wired connection (I'd imagine with HD a wired connection would be preferred) near the TV. It would honestly be a much more complicated format war than the HDDVD vs BD war. Seriously, could you imagine salesmen at some retailer trying to explain how each of these boxes work and why Box/Service A is better than Box/Service B?

[aud19]

But it's still no better than the HD-DVD vs Blu-ray format war. Each company has their own box to buy and service to subscribe to. Only now you have to have either wireless internet or a wired connection (I'd imagine with HD a wired connection would be preferred) near the TV. It would honestly be a much more complicated format war than the HDDVD vs BD war. Seriously, could you imagine salesmen at some retailer trying to explain how each of these boxes work and why Box/Service A is better than Box/Service B?

I agree with you there that's why eventually I think there will, and needs to be, a "standard" format here as well so that you can pick up a JVC or Pioneer or Toshiba or Apple etc player and then download from whichever "virtual store" you prefer.

We're not there yet obviously, these are all competing techs that will eventually be weeded down, and licensed out in a technological version of natural selection I'd wager. For sure these are all VERY early methods and if you buy a Vudu box for example, could end up being the equivalent of an obsolete HD-DVD player. Though a software upgrade could likely easily fix that as well.

As for high speed internet, as I've stated before, last year it was noted that over 1/2 of the US population now has high speed internet with that number growing every year. They also tend to be the more affluent portions of the population. Citing the internet as a detractor doesn't really jive. However yes people who haven't already will have to run a network cable and/or utilize the latest wireless formats to enjoy HD.

[impala454]

As for high speed internet, as I've stated before, last year it was noted that over 1/2 of the US population now has high speed internet with that number growing every year. They also tend to be the more affluent portions of the population. Citing the internet as a detractor doesn't really jive. However yes people who haven't already will have to run a network cable and/or utilize the latest wireless formats to enjoy HD.

Well the reason I keep citing that is because it's not yet consistent enough for even regular movie playback. I have a friend who would be included in your statistic as having high speed internet, as he has DSL, but he's out in a relatively new community that is relatively far out into the sticks. His DSL speeds are atrocious. I also have another friend who's a big HT guy but lives in a fairly rural area where his only option is DSL that's even weaker than my first friend's, or a wireless internet carrier that's not very relaiable. I know he'd go nuts if he had to rely on his internet connection to watch HD movies.

[aud19]

And I know people who've had reliability issues with PS3's, BY FAR the best BD player available....

Let's try to stay relevant and on topic.

[Ovation]

How is reliability NOT relevant to the topic? If the alternative to physical media delivery is NOT reliable, then it will most certainly be a major factor in determining its success, non? As for high speed internet, does that statistic account for available access in the area or actual paying subscribers? Also, how is "high speed" defined? For various companies' marketing departments, they have a rather broad set of acceptable speeds included in the "high speed" category--few of which would be sufficient for proper HD downloads at any reasonable rate.

[aud19]

My point with the PS3 analogy is that not EVERY customer is going to have a 110% success rate with ANY technology. The majority of the target market IMO is not going to be as big of a concern as you guys are making it out to be. Sometimes Netflix doesn't have the movie you want because it's popular, sometimes PS3's crap out, good portions of BD discs have features that can't be accessed, lock up players or cause other issues. Yet you guys seem to have no problem supporting that format....

So let's try to stay on topic with actual information regarding the topic rather than speculating on possible issues with possible percentages of population. OK?

[Ovation]

But you framed the discussion around the notion that "HD format war" is a moot point. That necessarily opens the door to discussing things like availability and access to the alternatives. If one makes an assertion (as you have) then the burden is on the person making the assertion to rebut objections. You bring up the downside to the more traditional formats and that's fine--no one appears to be complaining. But you can't argue that the traditional formats are not germane to a discussion of how and why alternatives might be better (which is the main thrust of your argument).

If you wanted to confine the discussion to the alternative delivery systems, then perhaps referencing the more traditional formats in a negative way was not the best way to preclude introducing them into the discussion.

In the end, it's all "early days". The best quality available right now is on physical media--there can be no denying that. I also believe that alternatives to physical media will, relatively soon, provide an equally high quality experience. The rub, ultimately, appears to be over whether people will be willing to abandon "ownership" of something physical (be it optical discs, flash drives or what have you) to a degree where physical media is no longer a major factor. I highly doubt that will be the case unless and until "wi-fi" is much more ubiquitous.

I think things like Vudu represent some interesting options--but I will wait until it is A) at least as good as what I get with HDM right now and B) where, once I pay for a film, I have UNLIMITED ownership of it in terms of when and where I play it. That, for many, will be THE deciding factor. And the desire of content providers to put limits on how often we can watch a film before paying for it again does NOT inspire me with confidence with regards to non-physical media.

[aud19]

First, the title of the thread was out of humor so... I think we can move past that :lol:

Also, I'm not questioning that BD is currently the highest quality format you can get movies in. It is. I am however questioning whether the general public cares or would notice the difference for the most part and the longevity of the format. Particularly when considering they've already proven they will sacrifice a bit of quality for the convenience of downloadable content.

Vudu does allow you to purchase movies as well if you'd care to FYI. And with Netstreams ability to distribute it within your house now that helps. But I do agree that the studios have to get over their wet dream of limiting ANY movement of media. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to move or copy a movie to a portable hard drive/flash drive etc to take to friends/family to watch.

I'll be the first to admit there are plenty of hurdles, changes and advances to get it to the point we all want it at but you have to start somewhere. I'm just trying to share the options and information I come across as it's available.