Kef or Krell Speakers System

[Paps]

We finally have updated our electronics with Krell HTS 7.1, Krell FPB 300 cx main amps, Krell Theater Amplifier Standard for Central & Surround and Sony ES DVP-Cx777 ES & Krell Showcase DVD as main players.

Need some good recomendation and/or sugestions for the following two Speaker Systems on Theater/Movies & Audio (by pass) performance:

Kef
Reference 207 (LR),
Reference 204C,
Ref 201 w/stands (SS)
REf 206 (RS)

Krell
Resolution 1 (LR),
Resolution C,
Resolution 3 (SS),
REsolution 4 (RS).

[Andrew M Ward]

We finally have updated our electronics with Krell HTS 7.1, Krell FPB 300 cx main amps, Krell Theater Amplifier Standard for Central & Surround and Sony ES DVP-Cx777 ES & Krell Showcase DVD as main players.

Need some good recomendation and/or sugestions for the following two Speaker Systems on Theater/Movies & Audio (by pass) performance:

Kef
Reference 207 (LR),
Reference 204C,
Ref 201 w/stands (SS)
REf 206 (RS)

Krell
Resolution 1 (LR),
Resolution C,
Resolution 3 (SS),
REsolution 4 (RS).

Man,
You can get the Kef stuff in all kinds of on-line-blow-out-sales!!!
Some advertising 68% off !!!! I'magine what they're paying for them if they are selling them for 68% off... What about the guy that bought them at regualr price, wow he got totally screwed.

[aud19]

Haven't heard Krell speakers but the Kef speaker i heard a long while back sounded pretty nice... Sorry I wasn't more help there :lol:

[kurtholz]

I hope this isnt to offending, but with such a top notch system, why would Kef even be in the running, B & W would be my choice, but of course, that what i own, i listened to the krell speakers, i was less than blown away, some nice 802d's,htm1 center, 805s surrounds and a velodyne or rell sub, or even a B & W sub would just be the best with your set-up, my less than expert opinion,

Kurt

[peterS]

Man,
You can get the Kef stuff in all kinds of on-line-blow-out-sales!!!
Some advertising 68% off !!!! I'magine what they're paying for them if they are selling them for 68% off... What about the guy that bought them at regualr price, wow he got totally screwed.

how do you know B&W doesnt have that much margin too....
kef is nice stuff

ive never heard or seen the krell's but i recall reading that they dont manufacture there own drivers

[Alloroc]

Kef are superb speakers - really well engineered. And at that kind of price, they're a steal. I mean I've seen the 207s selling recently for under $6000. These were originally a $15000/pair speaker wen they came out a few years back. It is possible to inform how much the full range is going to cost?

It's funny, over the years in this part of the world one of the big things in HiFi circles was 'were you a KEF or a B&W man?'. For years I was KEF man. I started off with the Q55s in the mid 90s and was so happy with them. I then upgraded to the Q65.2s and they were just amazing. I had them until I traded them for a pair of 205s about four years ago and I only replaced them last year with a pair of second hand Kharmas. I still have them though - I won't get rid of them - I have a plan....!

They are wonderfully made and the finish is superb. I am a huge fan of the UniQ driver and with the addition of a hypertweeter on the reference series you get clean, grain free HFs.

I demoed the 207s back then also. They were amazing. Stunning bass. I can only imagine that KEF are planning a range upgrade and are discounting heavily. I did not get such discounts when I purchaced mine! Either that or there's something unusual going on. Do you know if they are still made in England? The rest of their speakers are made far east now.
I would place the 207s somewhere between the B&W 800 and 802 - range wise, and we all know what they cost.

Incidentally, I did not go with the KEF XQ series when I wanted a new speakers setup for HT - quite a disappointment. I went with the B&W 703 package instead.

I have no experience with Krell speakers, so can't help there.

[Paps]

Man,
You can get the Kef stuff in all kinds of on-line-blow-out-sales!!!
Some advertising 68% off !!!! I'magine what they're paying for them if they are selling them for 68% off... What about the guy that bought them at regualr price, wow he got totally screwed.

May I get those Kef´s on-line-blow-out-sales!! Specially for the Reference Series. I´m still looking for better price.

[GregLett]

I hope this isnt to offending, but with such a top notch system, why would Kef even be in the running, B & W would be my choice, but of course, that what i own, i listened to the krell speakers, i was less than blown away, some nice 802d's,htm1 center, 805s surrounds and a velodyne or rell sub, or even a B & W sub would just be the best with your set-up, my less than expert opinion,

Kurt

I would not dismiss Kef. They make some pretty serious stuff.

[aud19]

I hope this isnt to offending, but with such a top notch system, why would Kef even be in the running, B & W would be my choice, but of course, that what i own, i listened to the krell speakers, i was less than blown away, some nice 802d's,htm1 center, 805s surrounds and a velodyne or rell sub, or even a B & W sub would just be the best with your set-up, my less than expert opinion,

Kurt

Why wouldn't Kef be in the running? :scratchhead:

Nothing wrong with B&W's either for that matter but Kef, makes some pretty damn nice speakers, ESPECIALLY at the top end of their lines.

Also FYI guys most speakers, especially higher-end models, have around (and a lot of times over) 100% markup

[peterS]

May I get those Kef´s on-line-blow-out-sales!! Specially for the Reference Series. I´m still looking for better price.

ultimate electronics has steep discounts on them too
use google... find the prices
take it into a retailer and see what they can do
they wont match the price but they should make it worth your while

these internet prices are ruining the industry, unfortuanatly certain manufacturers do little to stop it while others have a tight grasp... so unless you want to walmartize the industry do your part and suport your local dealer :

[kurtholz]

well, i wont debate the Kef versus B & W as i am in no way an expert, just auditioned the $6000 ones at ultimate, i thought they were cheap build quality compared to the B & W, not at all in the same class as the B & W 803 & up series, but that's just my opinion,

they sounded OK, just didnt seem like anything special,

i would try some used 803's or 802's for less but that is me

[peterS]

well, i wont debate the Kef versus B & W as i am in no way an expert, just auditioned the $6000 ones at ultimate, i thought they were cheap build quality compared to the B & W, not at all in the same class as the B & W 803 & up series, but that's just my opinion,

they sounded OK, just didnt seem like anything special,

i would try some used 803's or 802's for less but that is me

the one by me have them powered off a reciever
where as the b&w i auditioned had cables more expensive than my car... presentation helps

[eddiem67]

wrong place to compare anything to B&W, everyone here has a B&W boner, yes they sound nice for the money, but listen to many other speaker lines. KEF are a very nice system (both made in china, so I dont understand the quality comment). I think I would go with the Krell speakers since I am sure they designed them for there amps to give you the best sound.

[RobP]

Be careful of buying anything from Ultimate Electronics, they have been closing stores left and right, and if you have a problem you are SOL, I purchased a TV from them awhile back, they closed the store, and shortly after I had a problem with it, we called the corporate office and they basicly told me too bad, they got bought out by another company who did not want to assume any liabilty. So be careful. Dont know how long they will be around.

[peterS]

wrong place to compare anything to B&W, everyone here has a B&W boner, yes they sound nice for the money, but listen to many other speaker lines. KEF are a very nice system (both made in china, so I dont understand the quality comment). I think I would go with the Krell speakers since I am sure they designed them for there amps to give you the best sound.

meh B&w are made in the uk... as for manufacturing of the drivers i dont think anyone makes them outside of china

fyi speakers arnt designed for certain amps

[Andrew M Ward]

how do you know B&W doesnt have that much margin too....
kef is nice stuff

ive never heard or seen the krell's but i recall reading that they dont manufacture there own drivers

So let me get this straight...
Let's say the dealer selling the speakers at published 68% off is making 10% (not much money, but maybe enough to handle them and get rid of them) so that means they are being sold to him (when he buys them) for 78% below retail price...

are you still with me...

So if they are an $8,000 retail pair of speakers, (just for example)that makes dealer cost about $1650 on eight grand value.

Now for example, the B&W 803D is an $8,000 pair of speakers.

The cabinets are made in Denmark (not China where the Kef units are made, no offence to China, but they pay their workers a little less than Denmark, like 97% less) so these Denmark made real wood cabinets are then shipped to Worthing England, where they actually make the driver units (Kevlar ~ Rohacell and all) and wind there own coils and build there own crossovers, many people on this forum have been to the B&W factory to verify this. They then assemble them and test each unit in an anechoic chamber ... That ain’t happening’ at the Beijing facility where Kef leases their factory line.

not to mention (did I mention?) diamond tweeters (with diaphragms made by the DeBeers corporation at public knowledge of about $500 dollars cost each) ... Should I go on...

Most B&W dealers are dealers because they have a mutual business partnership with the company that extends back decades and frequently longer. B&W speakers are very expensive for dealers to buy and ridiculous to keep around in stock. B&W dealers are dealers because they know how the product is designed and manufactured and because B&W trusts them (the dealer) to display the product properly and present it with respect.

I suggest you at least look at a speaker company doing the same thing, I would ask a dealer to tell you about the company, which-ever company and see what he (or she) says... then decide.

Just an observation.

[Azeke]

That is certainly an interesting perspective Andrew.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke

[Andrew M Ward]

meh B&w are made in the uk... as for manufacturing of the drivers i dont think anyone makes them outside of china

fyi speakers arnt designed for certain amps

Some B&W inwall drivers are made in China, but 90% of B&W products are made in Worthing England or Aegerbach Denmark... I've seen the drivers being made in England... I've seen them making the coils and baskets and stamping the kevlar and putting the tweeters together ... in England, not China (no offense to China)

[eddiem67]

Dealer cost on B&W and KEF are very close, the difference is that B&W dealer usually dont budge on there pricing (maybe 10% off retail) because of the requirements Harmon Int'l has for selling B&W. The only way you can sell B&W is you must have a show room with several pieces and back stock, this creates overhead. KEF is not as strict, so the overhead is not as big, so the KEF dealer can sell 10% over cost if he wants to make a quick buck, I'm sure he is not supposed to, but is the consumer going to tell on him, no. So don't think just cause you paying 10% over cost on a set a speakers that they must not be as good as brand x.

[Andrew M Ward]

Dealer cost on B&W and KEF are very close, the difference is that B&W dealer usually dont budge on there pricing (maybe 10% off retail) because of the requirements Harmon Int'l has for selling B&W. The only way you can sell B&W is you must have a show room with several pieces and back stock, this creates overhead. KEF is not as strict, so the overhead is not as big, so the KEF dealer can sell 10% over cost if he wants to make a quick buck, I'm sure he is not supposed to, but is the consumer going to tell on him, no. So don't think just cause you paying 10% over cost on a set a speakers that they must not be as good as brand x.

Error corrections:

1) Harman does not own B&W ~ and how in the world did you come up with that... and how do you know the requirements to be a B&W dealer, I'm curious to know?

2) Kef is not as strict... You can say that again... Anybody with a checkbook and a business card can be a Kef dealer.

3) No manufacturer I'm aware of in consumer electronics has margin in that range (as I noted above) I was being mainly sarcastic. Anybody selling speakers at 68% off has acquired them from some kind of sideways deal straight from the factory. (most likely)

[Kent Turb0]

Deleted

[eddiem67]

Error corrections:

1) Harman does not own B&W ~ and how in the world did you come up with that... and how do you know the requirements to be a B&W dealer, I'm curious to know?

oops sorry, its Equity Int'l that reps B&W, just opened there dealer packet to confirm.

[Andrew M Ward]

Error corrections:

1) Harman does not own B&W ~ and how in the world did you come up with that... and how do you know the requirements to be a B&W dealer, I'm curious to know?

oops sorry, its Equity Int'l that reps B&W, just opened there dealer packet to confirm.

Further corrections:
Equity does not Rep B&W...
Equity (now called The B&W Group) is four companies, Rotel, Classe', B&W and iCommand... for example, an Equity employee is a B&W employee also this person might have an affiliation with Classe' or Rotel or iCommand... Or, an Equity employee might be an iCommand emplyee with affiliation wth B&W (does that make any sense?

Reps are independant companies that support sale of multiple companies, the B&W Group (or Equity) uses Reps in Florida, for example.

I'm still curious to know how you know the requirements to be a B&W dealer?

[comeup]

Who cares about the markup everything is marked up and all these companies are making money on us I think we should get what sounds good to your ear and I love the way Kefs sound. I have the 201s that sound dam good with fantastic build quality so where ever they made them they did a great job. The B&Ws sound great too, but I prefer Kef. I have both.

Kef been around fifty years or more and was the top of the line speaker co. in the UK for years. They were the ones to keep up with. I think they made the other speaker companies better in UK because of their quality sound.

[christopherf]

KEF Reference Model 207 vs B&W 802D

I was in SF for two months on a consulting assignment and finally found a store that had the KEF Reference Model 207. The system was driven by McIntosh C-46 and McIntosh MC402 and a one box Mac cd player and lowly Tributaries as cabling with no power conditioning. The sound was awesome like Quads except they did not break up when the going got complex or loud. I had a long extended listen with my own music. I then went across town to a dealer that had the B&W802D driven by Krell 400mcx and Krell preamp and Burmester cdplayer and top of the line Tara and Tara conditioning a lot more information but fatigueing and the mid range was more than a bit recessed.

Now would someone kindly give me a lead to where these speakers are being sold for $6,000?! I have been on the Internet and they are available for $10.600 but the dealer said he would come to my house (in southern California and "shoot" the room with a sound pressure meter to get optimum set up for 12K). I am seriously considering this rather than boxes shipped from New Jesrey for $1,500 less but $6,000 the pair please please please direct me..I am there. I know the KEF Reference is not selling well and it is KEF USA's fault because they do not support this product with advertising as does B&W . For what it is worth Stereoplay the German magazine in '03 ranked the 207 above the Thiel 7.2 , Amati Homage, Wilson Sophia and Dynaudio C4 so if they are discontinued bring it on...Really, I am not review driven but go to the British KEF site and read the reviews from different countries including Japan's product of the year...Kef USA puts the blame on the customers but which came first the chicken or the egg the customer cannot come into the stores to check them out if they are not aware of them.

Yet in every issue of The Absolute Sound and Stereophile you see full page ads for Wilson and B&W etc.

My email address is frank.christopher@earthlink.net and if anyone really knows of these speakers steeply discounted and the source it would be a great kindness. Really it is a five way that can sound like a point source and believe it or not I wanted to like the B&W802D and if you compare the frequency response measurements for both speakers the 802D is nowhere near as linear = neutral as these particular KEFs end of rant.
Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time to help me out on this one.
Sincerely,
Christopher Frank

[fauzigarib]

Kef Reference...

Hey all,

First of all, paps, I hope you got your question answered! This thread kind of took a detour and I don't know if you got what you were looking for.

Regarding the Krell Resolutions, I had a chance to hear them once at a friends place a couple of years ago, and he had done all sorts of room modifications etc. Suffice it to say, i just was not impressed.

Now Kef... Hmmm.. .where should I begin. Unfortunately, christopherf is absolutely right. They have really suffered in marketing recently, and, as such have lost some serious ground with new customers. No matter how good the products are, the company has been painfully slow to come to terms with American, European and even British competition. Gone are the days where customers used to run after their 104.2 or even the 104AB.

But please realize, that at the end of the day, even though Kef may not invest as much into marketing their products as the next guy, they still make a killer Reference series.

I think direct comparisons to B&W etc are completely fruitless, as unless you hear them side by side, there's no point. But let it be known, the build quality, their drivers (oh my, the uni-q! Engineering design at it's finest!), and their cabinetry design... all come from the same company that made the 104.2. No marketing gimmicks to talk about... just a really really good speaker.

Christopher, good luck finding 207's. That is one phenomenal speaker, the likes of which you'd be hard pressed to find in today's market. A true 5 way speaker design that has a flat flat FLAT response!

Cheers,

Fauzi

[christopherf]

When I was at the HE show in Los Angeles I learned that KEF USA just hired rep for the Reference line only. I met him and told him that I called every dealer on the list for California and only one had the 207 which I just happened to be near when I was in SF. Anyway I may have to go back to them after all but check out the kind of ignorant posting I just came across re the KEFs and my reply:

Today, 07:35 PM #4 (4)
kurtholz
Senior Member


Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 291 I really don't see how you can compare the two at all, KEF is a significantly different company since it's founders departure,

i think if you see and hear both, it will be a no-brainer

i heard them at ultimate also, but since the best they have is denon or sunfire stuff, how can you compare that to classe or McIntosh driven speakers

like test driving a ferrari with a volkswagon engine

Kef are mass produced by illiterate workers, made for the same buyers that go for Bose

my humble opinion

:-)

Kurt

Today, 10:13 PM #6 (6)
christopherf
Junior Member


Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7 I am in southern California...I never heard of ultimate anything but if it is true that all they have in the way of amplification is denon and other mid fi it is totally a dis-service to these speakers. As I said I heard them with McIntosh C-46 and McIntosh MC402 and the combination was magic. By the way the same speakers were driven by an all Bryston system at the Home Entertainment show in Los Angeles and to my ears the magic was totally gone...and apropos "made for the same buyers that go for Bose: AHC in the Absolute Sound equated the mid range in the lower model 205 to that in the Dynaudio Temptations (which we also heard at the show and retail for 40K). Have you heard these with proper amplification or just talking trash about them. I also personally know someone who just sold his Temptations and he two likened the mid range of the KEF 207 to his Temptations so what are you talking about...for all the hype of B&W802D there was only one reviewer who picked up that the mid range sounded recessed and it turns out that the speaker's frequency response is not linear with an elevated bass and does reflect a recessed midrange...but lots of top and bottom not just my opionion but a measured fact.

[comeup]

Christopherf, I agree they are good my Kef 201s and 202c are being pushed with a Monster MPA 3250 and my rear 206s/QX2 rear center are being pushed with a Rotel RMB 1075 and the sound is amazing. I would love to have the McIntosh amps they are such a good match with Kef Ref series I heard the combo at House Of Music in San Francisco.



I love B&Ws also can't take anything away from them especially their mid/lower end that I think are some of the best buys out there for speakers.I had a full B&W 600 series HT system that I upgraded to the Kefs. I first wanted to upgrade to the B&W 700 series but later felt that they weren't that much better than the 600 series for the price. I then heard the Kefs that sound so special to me I love the hypertweeter that gives this 3D image that makes me melt in my seat love them.



I know alot of you will disagree with me, but I like the Kef XQ5s that I own better than the B&W 704s especially with the Kef deals out there. They compete with each at 3K a pair MRSP. I got my XQ5s with XQ2c for 2699$ out the door. I use the XQ2 as a rear center in my Ref setup. I have the XQ5s in a Rotel two channel setup.




Don't get me wrong I like B&W they sound great and I might have went with all B&W if the dealers would have went down on the prices, but for the money on the mid/high Kef wins.



Ps, I think the B&W 600 series is a better sounding and a better buy than the Kef iQ series.

[kurtholz]

"anywayI may have to go back to them after all but check out the kind of ignorant posting I just came across re the KEFs and my reply:"

I agree, that was ignorant, i didnt mean it to sound so critically, one must read there posts before posting, it was late and i just threw out my thoughts without being smart enough to edit or tone down my thoughts after looking at them and hearing them

i think a lot can be said though, KEF can be found at many lower grade electronics stores,and they can be found at 50% or less on several internet sites

also, look at there resale value,

then compare that to B & w, even 10 year old 800 series bring about the same % as KEF compared to there original retail value, B & W get about 50% of there original value used and old, KEF get that new, does that not mean something to someone

is the whole flock stupid, or is there a reason

ya gotta at least digest that one, KEF at one time made some great speakers, but i don't think you can compare themtothe upper ranges of many other makers who employ skilled workers to assemble the final component

but hey, it's subjective, if you like me, buy em, you will save a ton of money,maybe they are a better deal for some

good luck

Kurt

[Gulinias]

I used to be a loyal Kef owner and at that time they were superior to B&W. I have not heard them but somehow I think now days because B&W is in so many high end shops they must be awesome. They can be bright (yes I mean the 800 series) and I find them in many ways bettered by other brands. It is a nice sound with a recessed midrange and some extra warmth. Kef I have not heard and have no idea. This thread did make me curious to revist them after so many years to hear them.