Using a computer UPS on HT Gear?

[Gordon Moore]

Any reasons why this would be a bad idea? I noticed that lately due to weather we have experienced the odd blip in AC. That got me thinking, why not plug the TV and gear into a UPS. Any reason why this would be detrimental to the AV gear.

I have nothing high end and the AC line power is clean but the occasional power pops can't be good for the electronics.

Any thoughts.

[audioqueso]

What makes it a computer-only UPS? In my job we have the same UPS that power our computers also back up our single rack servers and video equipment. There's not much difference (power-wise) between these racks and our home audio equipment, so there shouldn't be any reason why it would be a bad idea. Well, let us know if your toys blow up. lol... jk

[Gordon Moore]

What makes it a computer-only UPS?

Well that was my line of thinking....and Staples has a 650VA UPS on clearance and it just seemed like a good idea as a beefier version of a surge supressor. I can't really see why this would be a bad idea but you never know.

[Pieter]

I'm waiting for the labcoats to toss in their copper.

Been wondering about this too.

Glad you brought it up, Gordon.

[Snap]

What makes it a computer-only UPS?

:agree:

Gordon,
Untill you start talking power conditioning, and stuff like that a UPS for staples will be fine. I just have a 9 buck Wal-Mart Brand surge suppressor that works for my system. I am sure that there are some hard liners in the guide that will say you need to get a 200 buck Monster UPS or something. Personally I think that it is is a waste. I am only protecting against spikes in power. But we have good power out where I live.

I have heard that power conditioning for your TV is "supposed" to help out with PQ but I have not done it or seen it.

Thats my .02 cents

[ajpoe]

I have a UPS for my HTPC so I went ahead ang plugged in my Tivo, 1068, etc. I've had no problems with it and its been that way for as long as I've had my gear.

[ThomasW]

Unless the load rating is absolutely HUGE, UPS units should not be used with dynamic loads (power amps/receivers).

Also the low buck UPS units do not output pure sine waves, this is a problem.........

I've used one on a digital PJ to provide a cool down cycle in the event of a power failure. Other than that I think they have limited value of HT. I certainly wouldn't use them on any piece of quality audio gear.

[soundhound]

Thank you Thomas, I am of the same sentiment, allthough was blasted at club rotel for my take on it. I see APC just threw their hat in the ring with a couple of ht models that are engineered for the duty of such. A ups is great in it's application as it will hold up an operating system and allow it to shut down systematically with supplied software.

[aud19]

APC has the previously mentioned, recently added HT models. I've been using their Line-R models with great success for a few years now, they power condition (clean sine, lower line noise, and regulate a steady 110V as well as protect from spikes and brown outs). Though it appears the newer Line-R may be less feature full and also less expensive. (Likely to remove competion from the new HT line )

http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310

S Type Power Conditioner with Battery
(1000VA - 1500VA)
Premium surge protection, noise filtering, voltage regulation, and battery backup for high performance AV systems.

A single component that eliminates all power threats to your high performance AV system.
From the power engineering labs of APC comes the S Type Power Conditioner with Battery Backup. Pure sine-wave battery backup, surge protection, isolated noise filtering, and voltage regulation all combine in a single unit to deliver pure, uninterrupted power for high performance AV, home security, and automation systems.

[Gordon Moore]

Thanks for the info.... Makes sense why they don't tell you to use it with other electronics. I read about the APC several months ago and got to thinking why couldn't you just use a cheaper desktop version but now I understand why....you'll smoke the TV. :E

For the record, I wasn't looking for a power conditioner....I wanted the UPS capcabilities for a more gentle shut down. Our wall power is quite clean and problem free (thanks MB Hydro :T )

[George Bellefontaine]

I use a UPS for my projector only. It will allow my PJ to cool down if there is a power failure.When I bought it I'm pretty sure the PC fella said it wouldn't be great for power amps and receivers. Anyway, I've pretty much stuck to good quality surge protectors for that stuff.

[Fishy]

Funny I asked this a while ago in club rotel and got shot down quicker than a duck in shooting season....

I will now be looking at the APC HT range.

Fish

[SteveL]

I have a few Cybex UPS systems protecting my home theater. My sub gets its own 1500w unit, while the receiver and TV share another 1500w unit. The DVD player and Receiver share a 600w unit.

Been using them for nearly 8 months with no issues at all. I even test them from time to time by unplugging them from the wall while stuff is powered-up, and there's no issues that I can detect. And I certainly trust APC/Cybex/Belkin/etc. a lot more than good 'ole Monster Cable...

[ajpoe]

I have a 900VA battery backup (I don't think its APC, but it came from Office Depot) and I want to make sure its not bad for my equipment. If it is, then I'll probably just go get an HTS 2600 or Rotel RLC-900 because I mainly wanted it for lightning and surge/dip protection. If I get a conditioner then I'll just keep my computer and Tivo plugged into the UPS and everything else into the that.

I know the Tivo and Computer are plugged into the backup plugs so they can be shut down on power failure. I'm pretty sure things like my RPTV and 1068 are just plugged into the protected outlets that aren't battery backed. Is this good or bad? I'd rather not spend more money if I don't have to.

Does anyone know how well the Rotel RLC-900 compares to the Monster HTS-2600 which costs $150 more?

[csuzor]

I have several standard PC-type UPS from APC in my house, for all computer gear and hifi and TV/video. It avoids transient dips during high wind or storms, recently a 3 minute power-out during a movie didn't prevent us from watching without interruption.

The new APC models are much more expensive, provide better noise reduction and spare batteries for longer power-out useage, but for my use, the cheaper computer models are fine. I did A/B comparison with and without the UPS, and I feel there was an improvement in the audio (previously posted).

If the power-out last for more than a few minutes, it beeps and it's time to shut everything down. The important consideration is the average power consumption to be supported, the math is easy, then just choose the models you need. The power available from the new APC UPS models for HiFi is not greater than is available in the other cheaper ranges. If you feel that is not enough power, then there is no other option than to use the filtered non-battery backed outlet available on all of these UPS, but in my experience that is not necessary (who really needs 1000+W of delivered audio power in a home environment?)

[ajpoe]

I'm more concerned with pure sine wave output than battery backup. I picked up a Monster HTS 2600 last night and will hook it up asap. I looked through my Conext UPS information and I couldn't find anything that said it output pure sine waves so I'll feel a lot more comfortable with the 2600 unless someone can look at that link and tell me if they think it is fine. Does the AVR feature mean its pure sine waves? For now,

I will keep my HTPC connected to my UPS. I assume it is also fine to keep my TiVo connected to the UPS even if its not pure sine wave since its basically a computer designed for recording?

[AndrewM]

You can buy UPS's that are advertised as producing a "pure" sine wave (as opposed to a step sine wave), they're usually a bit more money and typically available in the larger units. Past that knock yourself out plugging stuff into it, just make sure you account for the power needs, for instance don't plug your 1,000W Class A amp into a UPS rated for 500VA (if the UPS doesn't fry it should last oh about .00005 seconds should the power go out while listening at a decent level). Also watch out for the "VA" rating, UPS's used to be advertised in Watts but that switched awhile ago to Volt/Amps.

Andrew

[ajpoe]

I emailed APC as soon as I read this thread since they are they manufacturer for my Conext UPS. I just got the response 5 minutes ago so I thought I'd post their reply:

The output of all the outlets of the Conext battery backup is Pure Sine Waves when it is running on normal AC Power. However when the UPS falls on battery, the battery outlets will start supplying Stepped Sine Waves. The Surge Outlets of course will not have any power at that time.

So you may plug in these Audio and Video equipment to the Surge Only Outlets of the UPS and they should be fine.

So leaving the HTPC and Tivo plugged into the backup portion and other components into the regular surge protected plugs is fine after all. The UPS alone wasn't enough outlets so I have some things plugged into this Belkin surge protector/filter also. Now I need to decide if I want to keep the HTS2600 I got last night because it seems like the 2 things I'm already using does the same job. I'm thinking I should just get my $300 back. I don't think I really need the conditioning that much... I haven't ever noticed noise in my audio or video. What are your opinions?

[Kevin P]

Most UPSes only regenerate the AC when on battery power; when on AC they simply pass the AC through unaltered other than noise and surge filtering. So, as long as your AC supply is in good condition, a UPS should have no adverse affect on your equipment or sound. It's only when the power fails and the UPS switches to battery power that your gear would receive the stepped sine wave or whatever the UPS supplies.

So, use your best judgement as to what you should connect to the UPS. Personally, I would only use a UPS for equipment such as HTPCs, TiVos, and digital projectors that could be adversely affected by a power loss while running. If you have a piece of gear that develops amnesia after power drops (the Outlaw 1050 is/was notorious for this), it might be beneficial to plug that into the UPS as well. I wouldn't plug power amps or subwoofers into the UPS though.

[ajpoe]

Personally, I would only use a UPS for equipment such as HTPCs, TiVos, and digital projectors that could be adversely affected by a power loss while running. If you have a piece of gear that develops amnesia after power drops (the Outlaw 1050 is/was notorious for this), it might be beneficial to plug that into the UPS as well. I wouldn't plug power amps or subwoofers into the UPS though.

Right, I think I'll just get my $300 back for the 2600 and make sure to only have the HTPC and Tivo plugged into the backup portion of the UPS. I'll just keep my amps, and everything else plugged into either the non-backup surge protected outlets in the UPS or my Belkin Isolator surge protector. Thanks for the info!

[Snap]

PSU for Projectors???

Kevin,
My question is do you need to spend a bunch of money on the UPS if all you are doing is hooking it up to TiVo or what you had mentioned? I mean wouldn't a PC PSU be fine?

AJPOE is taking his expensive one back, that would be the smart move right?

I thought about doing it for a recorder but 9 times out of 10 the cable goes out before the power does in my area. So it is not like I am going to be able to keep recording the show I was wanting to record. (most of the time)

What are the problems with the projectors? I am wanting to know cause I have 2 4100 lumen projectors at my church and they do not have PSU's We have lost power at the church several times with them running, and nothing that I noticed happened.

The projector controller from some reason dumped all its comands but that was found out later that the E-Z TROLL had a bad circuit card and was replaced with a new card.

Your help on this is greatly appreciated!

Snap

[ThomasW]

I haven't ever noticed noise in my audio or video. What are your opinions?

You have AC line noise you probably just don't know it. If you actually want to improve the audio/video signals buy a balanced power device= increased common mode rejection.

What are the problems with the projectors?

It's not a problem it's that they have a fan based cool down cycle. If the power goes out the fan can't cool the PJ. Use a UPS and you can shut down the PJ and let the fan cooling do it's thing. This saves money on expensive bulb/lamp changes...

[Snap]

Thomas thanks for the input. I did not know that. I wonder how to sell that to a customer? I just did not think it was that big of a deal. 8)

Yeah the bulbs are expensive that is for sure. We change them every year as well as service the PJ's.

[ajpoe]

thanks for the info thomas. so the hts2600 would help get rid of the ac noise, but how will that compare to the belkin surge protector that i have. it claims to isolate and filter noise as well. i'm just trying to decide if the $300 for the 2600 is worth it or if my filtering will work as well.

here's the info on the belkin again.

[ThomasW]

Surge and EMI/RFI filters are cheap. Spending big bucks for them is IMO not necessary.

Something as physically small as the Belkin can have some surge and EMI/RFI filters but it's not an isolation transformer, nor can it have a significant impact on the sonics.

Now don't freakout when I show this but here's what I use......



This is a 1.5kVa Equi=tech "Q" balanced power transformer in a box. It weighs 70lbs and can power many peoples entire system. It costs $400 + shipping. This tranny costs $3000 if they put it in a shiney machined alu chassis with a bizillion outlets on the back

It's designed to be hardwired into a dedicated line, but can be setup as outboard device with a cord to a wall outlet. Plug a quality surge protected EMI/RFI outlet strip into it and get not only all the protection but one of the finest balanced power trannys on the planet.

[aud19]

APC has the previously mentioned, recently added HT models. I've been using their Line-R models with great success for a few years now, they power condition (clean sine, lower line noise, and regulate a steady 110V as well as protect from spikes and brown outs). Though it appears the newer Line-R may be less feature full and also less expensive. (Likely to remove competion from the new HT line )

http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310

S Type Power Conditioner with Battery
(1000VA - 1500VA)
Premium surge protection, noise filtering, voltage regulation, and battery backup for high performance AV systems.

A single component that eliminates all power threats to your high performance AV system.
From the power engineering labs of APC comes the S Type Power Conditioner with Battery Backup. Pure sine-wave battery backup, surge protection, isolated noise filtering, and voltage regulation all combine in a single unit to deliver pure, uninterrupted power for high performance AV, home security, and automation systems.

Just thought I would add that I have two of the old 1200VA Line R models and I don't have my amps or sub plugged in to them. TV, DVD player, cable box, VCR, pre/pro etc

[ajpoe]

Surge and EMI/RFI filters are cheap. Spending big bucks for them is IMO not necessary.

Something as physically small as the Belkin can have some surge and EMI/RFI filters but it's not an isolation transformer, nor can it have a significant impact on the sonics.

Thanks again Thomas. This stuff is so confusing to me for some reason. It sounds like that tranny with my belkin power strip would be the best way to go. Unfortunately that's more money than the 2600 (although I know its far superior). And, a bigger issue is that i don't really have anywhere to place a 70 lb metal box in my living room. May be when i get a dedicated room, that will be the way for me to go, but for now it sounds as though you're saying the 2600's tranny will provide balanced power and be far superior to just using my surge protector with isolators. If that is the case, then may be i'll just keep this 2600 and give a test drive. i haven't even hooked it up yet because of all this discussion.

[ThomasW]

The HTS2600 is fundamentally glorified (fancy) version of the Belkin unit with sequencing of the outlets and a useless digital voltage display. This means it contains surge and EMI/RFI filters, it has no transformer.

Note that there are a limited number of the "Q" transformers-in-a-box available. After they're sold there are no more, ever. They've already sold out of the $500 2.0kVa unit

[ajpoe]

well that makes my decision easy. the 2600 is going back. i'd rather put the $300 toward the tranny in a box if i can swing it. is it difficult to modify so it can be used as an outboard device? are there instructions online anywhere?

also, do you happen to have the dimensions available? if not, i can email equi=tech easy enough. i'll need to see if i'll have anywhere to hide it before I do anything

[ThomasW]

As I recall the chassis is 21"X14.5"X3.5"

Here's a thread where someone in the process of converting one. Mine are hardwired in.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13716&highlight=balanced+power

Here's a website I made for a small balanced power unit, you can use the pics as examples for the bigger chassis.

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw_2/CheapskateBP1.html

Note that if you use an outboard surge protector/outlet strip you don't need any of the other components you see mounted inside the Cheapskate devices.

[ajpoe]

Well, I live about 2 minutes from Parts Express... so I could get the parts to build one of your cheapskate models pretty easily and no shipping costs. If I were to do the model 1, I could plug my belkin surge protector into one outlet (with the 1068, DAC1, DVD, TV) and my 900VA UPS into the other outlet (with Tivo and HTPC) and run the 1075 (or any other amps) to a separate surge protector plugged into the wall. This would give me the surge protection, battery backup and balanced power for everything except my 1075, TST amp and powered subwoofers.

Another question... would my system only be as good as the weakest link, which in this case would be the amps not being on BP. Would I get benefits from removing noise in all my other equipment and then not having the main things driving my speakers on BP.

[ThomasW]

My suggestion is not to literally copy the Cheapskate designs. The tranny from PE is too small for them to be practical. That I found out after making 3 different versions.

If you can possibly afford it get the "Q" tranny from Equi=tech and copy the way the inside of the Cheapskate is built. Then you'll have a worldclass BP unit that will last a lifetime, and be able to power your entire system (including power amps and or receivers).

The effects of BP is cumulative. The more devices plugged in, the better the sound and or picture.

[ajpoe]

So the "Q" tranny following the cheapskate design... that would give me 2 outlets to use my powerstrip and UPS with tons of BP. That combo will let me run my whole system on BP and have no noise and surge protection? Does that tranny hum very loud or get really hot? I'd probably have to place it in the bottom of my audio rack which is an enclosed cabinet with glass doors.

But, it sounds like the best scenario around $450.

If I decide to go this route, I hope you won't mind giving some extra technical support... I really appreciate all the help you've provided in this matter already. You've already saved my $300 on that glorified monster power strip :T

[ThomasW]

I have a "Q" simultaneously powering the all following BIG power amps Adcom 555, Aragon 8008BB and Ayre V5. The tranny isn't even warm to the touch, and it's completely silent.

The "Q" comes mounted in a stock electrical junction box, due to the weight of the tranny the box is a bit flexible. I mount mine on a piece of 3/4" ply or OSB.

You can put in as many outlets as you're in the mood to wire up. The single mount outlets (not duplex) fit into holes that are prepunched in the chassis. All you need to do is drill holes for mounting screws.

Here's a good deal on Hospital Grade single mount outlets.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=53112&item=7508746721&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

I'll walk you step by step through building the unit. It's no big deal. Order the tranny and start a thread on the DIY section of the forum. That way everyone can follow along

[aud19]

Now I want one!! :P :lol:

[ThomasW]

Now I want one!! :P :lol:

How long a drive is it from Vancouver to the Equi=tech factory in Selma Oregon?

[aud19]

Gonna guess 6-8 hours :lol: not having any $$$ is more of a problem :lol:

[csuzor]

Hehe, there's a storm brewing outside, the lights go off for 2-3sec (as does everything else in the house!) every now and then, and I've got Jarvi playing Debussy in 5 channels at high volumes, no interruptions.
So, to answer Gordon's original post: UPS is the way to go!
Christophe

[Gordon Moore]

Chrisophe, what are you running for a UPS?

[csuzor]

Christophe, what are you running for a UPS?

Just standard, available everywhere, APC computer UPS. Just calculate the average power you really need with the gear you have, and get the appropriate model (you may need more than 1, but at $200 or so they're cheap). Then just hide it somewhere, it's not as fancy as that new APC model, but it's almost as good for a lot less.

[Gordon Moore]

Funny, I looked into the model I have and as it's been mentioned it outputs a stepped sine wave on battery.

This one to be exact:

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500

From what I gathered from Thomas you'd possibly smoke your equipment but from your experience that's not the case?

[Gordon Moore]

Hmm, just noticed that the smart UPS line is pure SINE wave....

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA750

the 750VA model for $370 CDN is a heck of a lot cheaper than the pretty $1500 CDN APC is asking for the HT models for the same function (just not as pretty).

In fact you could get 2 smartups1500's for the price of one fancy shmancy HT model

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500

[soundhound]

Gordon, you've heard from both sides of the coin, ultimately it's up to you. There are a few of us who figure if we spend 10k on hardware, 1k+ on interconnects, what is another $1k for power piece of mind, rest assured you will never hear about the day a component let the smoke out of it because of an under powered supply.

[ThomasW]

From what I gathered from Thomas you'd possibly smoke your equipment but from your experience that's not the case?

If you don't come close to the load limit of the UPS you're okay. If you exceed the load limit of the UPS, and or clip an amp plugged into a UPS, you probably won't like the consequences (Note, been there done that, destroyed a $1k amp).

Remember that 'peaks' in digital recordings can take 10+ times more power to pass cleanly.

[aud19]

That's precisely why I plug all of my peripherals and not my amp/sub in to the APC Line R's I think the "most afordable while still offering good protection" route (IMO) is a whole house surge suppression unit in combination with something like the APC's for peripherals. Then amps plugged in to the wall.