What would Mozart do?

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  • Bob
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2000
    • 802

    What would Mozart do?

    I have to admit there are only two things that I know about Mozart, well 3 because I know his date of death. The first is that he wrote the only opera I own, "Le nozze di Figaro". I have the 6 side, 3 Disc record from EMI and I listen to it about once a year, usually on a rainy day. I like this particular box set because it came with a nice booklet as large as a LP with a large easy to read font. It is laid out like a film script and is easy to follow. The Italian version in one column the English translation next to it. Gets a little tricky when there is overlapping characters singing but, after a couple of decades of listening to it and writing notes in the margins I pretty much can follow it. O'k, I'm a slow learner.
    The other thing I know about him is that there is a movie about him called Amadaus. Like any movie it probably is more fiction than truth but, nonetheless, I like Tom Hulce as the composer too modern for his times. His music isn't considered serious by the elite of the day and his music and operas only play for the masses in the less important venues, not in the big halls where the rich and the royalty go.
    So, while listening to The Flaming Lips "At War With The Mystics" on 180gram vinyl today I started thinking, what would Mozart do? If he was alive today would he be composing acoustic symphony music that stayed in the constraints of 18th century composition styles and be performing at the Hollywood Bowl for people in black ties? Or would he be using modern instruments, and synthetic simulators, layering sound landscapes and beats that can't be pigeoned holed into some Clear Channel music executive's idea of what's the right number of notes? I say the later. He would be playing at venues few people have ever heard of, entertaining the people that don't care what it's called as long as they like it. I think he would have a band like The Flaming Lips and he would be putting out music like At War With The Mystics. Why do I think this, because my best audio friend only likes jazz, female lounge singers like Diana Krall, and classical. Whenever he comes over and I put something on like the Flaming Lips he explodes with expletives about what a bunch of c***p it is, and that's one of my tests for modern music geniuses.
    Warning!!! don't listen to track one side three if you are prone to epilectic fits when exposed to strope lights or swirling out of phase music that twists your brain round and round. I love this album. This band has always been a hoot live but, their recorded music pretty much sucked until "Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots", IMHO, even if in truth there is nothing humble about me. "At War With The Mystics" is a even more mature recording with fearless experimentation. And, for you audiophiles, an excellent recording where even the smallest background nuances aren't lost in the cacophony of sound. Like Pink Floyd and Roger Water's, it is an excellent case study of why you don't need surround sound music. With todays recording gimmicks and careful system setup you only need two speakers to be immersed in sound.
  • Burke Strickland
    Moderator
    • Sep 2001
    • 3161

    #2
    Bob,

    Do you suppose Mozart's bag of tricks might have included the carriage return-line feed? :>) Kind of hard to read such a big block of text.

    Burke

    What you DON'T say may be held against you...

    Comment

    • Bob
      Senior Member
      • Jul 2000
      • 802

      #3
      Do you suppose Mozart's bag of tricks might have included the carriage return-line feed? :>) Kind of hard to read such a big block of text.
      While getting A's and B's in math and science I failed English my last 3 years in high school and first year in college . I'll be the first to admit I can't put a coherent thought down in words or spell worth a damn. Sorry.
      Of course in college, I also discovered that you could take art classes and actually get credits for going to art history slide shows while being stoned. Maybe I should have paid attention instead of moving up to Haight/Asbury and going to work at the Filmore.

      Comment

      • Burke Strickland
        Moderator
        • Sep 2001
        • 3161

        #4
        I'll be the first to admit I can't put a coherent thought down in words or spell worth a damn. Sorry.
        Actually the thoughts are coherent and you make some interesting points -- they're just all run together in one big paragraph, which makes it hard to read. How about this:

        I have to admit there are only two things that I know about Mozart, well 3 because I know his date of death.

        The first is that he wrote the only opera I own, "Le nozze di Figaro". I have the 6 side, 3 Disc record from EMI and I listen to it about once a year, usually on a rainy day. I like this particular box set because it came with a nice booklet as large as a LP with a large easy to read font. It is laid out like a film script and is easy to follow. The Italian version in one column the English translation next to it. Gets a little tricky when there is overlapping characters singing but, after a couple of decades of listening to it and writing notes in the margins I pretty much can follow it. O'k, I'm a slow learner.

        The other thing I know about him is that there is a movie about him called Amadaus. Like any movie it probably is more fiction than truth but, nonetheless, I like Tom Hulce as the composer too modern for his times. His music isn't considered serious by the elite of the day and his music and operas only play for the masses in the less important venues, not in the big halls where the rich and the royalty go.

        So, while listening to The Flaming Lips "At War With The Mystics" on 180gram vinyl today I started thinking, what would Mozart do? If he was alive today would he be composing acoustic symphony music that stayed in the constraints of 18th century composition styles and be performing at the Hollywood Bowl for people in black ties? Or would he be using modern instruments, and synthetic simulators, layering sound landscapes and beats that can't be pigeoned holed into some Clear Channel music executive's idea of what's the right number of notes?

        I say the latter. He would be playing at venues few people have ever heard of, entertaining the people that don't care what it's called as long as they like it. I think he would have a band like The Flaming Lips and he would be putting out music like At War With The Mystics. Why do I think this, because my best audio friend only likes jazz, female lounge singers like Diana Krall, and classical. Whenever he comes over and I put something on like the Flaming Lips he explodes with expletives about what a bunch of c***p it is, and that's one of my tests for modern music geniuses.

        Warning!!! don't listen to track one side three if you are prone to epilectic fits when exposed to strope lights or swirling out of phase music that twists your brain round and round. I love this album. This band has always been a hoot live but, their recorded music pretty much sucked until "Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots", IMHO, even if in truth there is nothing humble about me.

        "At War With The Mystics" is a even more mature recording with fearless experimentation. And, for you audiophiles, an excellent recording where even the smallest background nuances aren't lost in the cacophony of sound. Like Pink Floyd and Roger Water's, it is an excellent case study of why you don't need surround sound music. With todays recording gimmicks and careful system setup you only need two speakers to be immersed in sound.

        What you DON'T say may be held against you...

        Comment

        • Burke Strickland
          Moderator
          • Sep 2001
          • 3161

          #5
          Although I am a fan of classical music and jazz, I think it the height of pomposity and ersatz "good taste" to categorically put down other musical genres. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't have standards. But looking down one's nose at anything that is not familiar or in a certain class / category shows a snobbish inflexiblility, and it is a pity that people so inclined limit themselves in experiencing and appreciating what the world has to offer by shunning what they claim to be "inferior".

          There's a lot out there to enjoy besides jazz and classical. But a lot of people also go the other extreme and don't bother to explore the riches of the classical catalog, just because they think it is too "high brow", and don't realize how much fun a lot of it can be and how rewarding it is once you get beyond the few "blockbuster" hits that get overplayed, even "borrowed" in movie soundtracks and commercials.

          I have one Dianna Krall recording in my collection that doesn't get played very often, and it probably won't ever be joined by another. Too many other more talented singers out there to get feverish over her. I sure wouldn't put her up as the flag-bearer for jazz!

          I don't particularly like Rap in general, because so much of it is so hostile and negative. (There's something just wrong about "artists" using certain words over and over to describe themselves and the milieu they belong to that I'd get shot if I used.) But I have couple of Rap recordings in my collection that are not only uplifting, but well recorded too. So there's hope for just about any genre. :>)

          Even if we make our living creating or promoting a particular musical genre, there's a lot to enjoy and learn from by "branching out".


          Burke

          What you DON'T say may be held against you...

          Comment

          • Bob
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2000
            • 802

            #6
            It is pretty hard to embrace all genres of music. There is always going to be some style that you just can't get into. As you know from other posts I actually like classical music and jazz. I go to the Disney Hall in LA several times a year.

            I wasn't trying to put down any genre, just pointing out that what is considered classical now was possibly avante guard and considered not worth listening to at the time.

            Also, I hoped that my ramblings might perk some one's intrest in "At War With The Mystics" by writing down what I started thinking as the fourth side started playing. By the way, I also don't dislike the Beatles. I was a senior in high school when the British invasion hit the U.S. and owned as many of their records as anyone. It's just in hindsight, I now can see that what was happening in America music wise in the years just prior to their first album, and what was starting to take shape on the West Coast at the time was far more interesting.

            However, with pop music, airtime is everything in shaping public opinion. And the music that we hear the most between say age 14 and 24 sticks with us.

            Just a quick rundown on my thoughts about why the Beatles were actually inferior to what should have been getting the airtime.
            10 years before the Beatles rock and roll was really taking off. Jerry Lee Lewis rocked so hard you could light a ciggarette on his piano strings from the heat(of course, no radio station would play his music). Carl Pekins and Elvis were melding gospel and blues rocking on Sun Records and hadn't turned into big hair lounge acts yet(when on Ed Sullivan he is given orders not to swivle his hips). On the East Coast and the Midwest and CA you had Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper, and Richie Valens all playing rock music that is miles ahead of the Beatles first two albums(problem was their concerts were oftened shut down and their music shut out from many radio stations). Little Richard is writing and performing some of the best rock tunes of all time but, no black man with sexually charged music is allowed on the radio. And Pat Boone's versions hardly rocked. Then as you all know, rock and roll died in one year. Jerry Lewis is banned, Buddy Holly, Richie, The Bopper all dead, Elvis is drafted, Carl Perkins goes big hair country, Little Richard still can't get on the air. About the only one left is Wanda Jackson, the Patti Smith of her times, and no radio station is playing a girl rock and roll artist.

            Then on the West Coast the Beach Boys appear. Pop music, absolutly but far more sophisticated than the Beatles. Pet Sounds was revolutionary at the time and, there is no George Martin being used to cover mediocre musical ability, it is all the genius of Brian Wilson.

            At the same time southern blues are starting to be merged with rock in Chicago and in the South but, again no radio time. While the Beatles arrive to screaming 12 year olds a quiet revolution is starting to take place in San Francisco and spreading to Los Angeles. The Monterey POP Festival happens and Jimi Hendrix plays his first concert on Montery purple acid. While the East Coast and the Midwest are in a frenzy of English Mod the West Coast is merging the Beat Generation with the Hip Generation and a whole new style of long form rock is emerging, songs too long to be played on the radio between commercials. By the time George Harrison sneaks into the Haight with his heart shaped sunglasses the music revolution has left the Beatles in the dust. They did they're best to imitate with Sgt Pepper, Yellow Submarine, the White Album but, it is like Pat Boone singing Tutti Frutti. The songs on the albums are played on all the radio stations and become immensly popular but, really a couple of years behind the times.

            O'k, that was my rant on the Beatles. Liked them, just think they are overhyped. And get my hackles up when I hear people say how original they were.

            Comment

            • Chris D
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Dec 2000
              • 16877

              #7
              Well, here's my thought on the original premise here of Mozart:

              Yes, Mozart was definitely ahead of his time, and made the music he wanted to, which certainly clashed with the accepted norms of his time. As to what he would do TODAY, I would say that would depend on what kind of person he was. If he was just a rebel and a punk that wrote the music he did mostly to "shrug off the norm" and buck society, then today he might be just another punk rock band that is anti-establishment. There's so many out there, that the term "alternative rock" doesn't even seem to have true meaning anymore, it all just blends together.

              I don't think that anyone would dispute that he was a musical genius, though, so any music that he did make today, whether classical, rock, punk, or whatever, I think would musically be advanced and actually decent stuff, not just a group of guys screaming over a distorted guitar and heavy drums.

              On the other hand, if he really made the music he did because that's really what he wanted to do, then who knows what he would make today. Perhaps the same music! Perhaps, though, after hearing and being influenced by other music that our history has contained up to now, he would do something totally different that didn't exist back then, such as progressive instrumental rock. I think whatever he made, though, it would rise through the vast mire of media out there and catch the public's attention, just due to his genius and musical mastery.
              CHRIS

              Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
              - Pleasantville

              Comment

              • BTB
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 198

                #8
                Originally posted by Bob
                Also, I hoped that my ramblings might perk some one's intrest in "At War With The Mystics"...
                Bob, I just got this album recently, I also own the Soft Bulliten & "Yoshimi.." albums, for my money "genius" is not too strong a word.

                I guess not everyone will find their (the Lips..) music appealing, as you've said, "easy to swallow" music that gets heavy rotation on the commercial music stations is often most popular. Pity more people don't get exposed to more good music, but in the minds of many people I've encountered, music has been reduced to anonymous "files" they swop on their iPods, and they generally "get" what's "given" them by the usual popular sources (TV & pop radio).

                Anything remotely off the beaten track is simply not enough of a known "name brand" to hold their attention. This is a great pity, seeing as I've recently (like in the last 2 years or so) opened myself up to other musical sounds after years of treading well worn musical paths. My other post... about "loving" music again was meant pretty tongue in cheek... I do enjoy a bit of country, a bit a rap, and even some electronica too, although not of the gutless "new age" variety!!

                And just to add my voice to what others have said... I.M.O Diana Krall's music is not as good as many seem to think... compared to other contemporary female singers like Patricia Barber (herself not universally loved, I know, but her music does have "guts") she comes off bland and safe, too much style, too little substance. Good for background music at dinner parties, elevators, hotel lobbies.... :twisted: As Burke said... hardly the flag bearer for "real" jazz!

                Comment

                • bigburner
                  Super Senior Member
                  • May 2005
                  • 2649

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bob
                  O'k, that was my rant on the Beatles. Liked them, just think they are overhyped. And get my hackles up when I hear people say how original they were.
                  Hi Bob,

                  Well if "Flight Test" off Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots isn't a rip off of the old Cat Stevens song "Father and Son" you can call me Aunt Betty.

                  They'll still be playing The Beatles in living rooms all around the world long after The Flaming Lips are forgotten. I do like Yoshimi but it's not in the same league as Rubber Soul or Revolver or the White Album.

                  If you buy the July edition of MOJO magazine you'll find opinions on The Beatles from 100 accomplished musicians, none of whom agree with you, and none of whom are 12 year old schoolgirls.

                  Interestingly the same edition of MOJO contains a tour diary feature on The Flaming Lips. They get one-and-a-half pages whereas The Beatles get 35 pages. That kind of sums it up.

                  All IMHO of course.

                  Nigel.

                  Comment

                  • Bob
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2000
                    • 802

                    #10
                    Micheal Jackson, Madona, Britney Spears, would probably also get more pages in MOJO magizine than people like Wanda Jackson, Little Richard, Jack Burton, or Jerry Lee Lewis.

                    Like I said, I grew up with the Beatles and liked their pop music in my youth. But, the other people I mentioned were real pioneers that played music on their own terms.

                    By the way here is an excerpt from George Martin's Bio:

                    He first auditioned the Beatles in 1962, after they had been turned down by Decca Records and most of the major British labels. Although his initial reaction was that "they were pretty awful", Martin signed them to a recording contract. This marked the beginning of a long relationship, in which Martin's musical expertise helped fill the gap between the Beatles's raw talent and the sound they wanted to achieve. Most of the orchestral arrangements and instrumentation (as well as frequent keyboard parts on the early records) on Beatles records were made or performed by Martin, in collaboration with the band. (A good example of this was on "Penny Lane", where Martin worked with McCartney on a piccolo trumpet solo: McCartney hummed the melody, and Martin wrote it down in music notation for the classically trained trumpeter.)

                    The bands that were expanding the definition of the blues, that were melding country, country western, and rock all into one genre, the west coast bands that were blending jazz and rock with psychedelia all were doing it on their own. Not working with record labels to make the best pop music. And it was these bands that the Beatles imitated, and did so well with better written music that was more palatable to public taste and short enough for radio executives to allow on the air.

                    Of course many musicians like them. They also grew up with them and probably started out playing versions of thier songs. After all, they are very nice catchy tunes that are fun to humm.

                    Comment

                    • Bob
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2000
                      • 802

                      #11
                      It's 1787 and MOJO has just come out with their latest issue. 35 pages are devoted to the great composers of the time, Joseph Hayden and, of course, the composer to the Vienna Court, the great Antonio Salieri.

                      The accomplished musicians of the time are interveiwed where they explain their love for the music of the two. Up and coming musicians practice the works of these great contemporaries and hope to be asked to perform in the great halls of Vienna, Prague, and Munich.

                      For one and a half pages in the back of the magazine is a brief article about the soon to be performed opera by Mozart. It will take place in a small venue where only the unwashed will attend. A quote from the famous magazine was the following,"Mozart, for those of you who don't recognize the name, is the composer who in 1782 wrote Die Entführung aus dem Serail, a German Singspiel which went far beyond the usual limits of the tradition with its long, elaborately written songs (hence Emperor Joseph II's famous observation, 'Too many notes, my dear Mozart')"

                      Musicians and opera divas interviewed about the composer had this to say:
                      "Mozart, who's Mozart?'
                      "His operas are to long, too many singers, who can follow them."
                      "He sent a copy of his latest opera to my agent. Why would I lend my voice to a bawdry opera about a peasant girl and her father that cuts hair."
                      "He showed promise when he was young but, will never be remembered."

                      Comment

                      • BTB
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 198

                        #12
                        Originally posted by bigburner
                        Interestingly the same edition of MOJO contains a tour diary feature on The Flaming Lips. They get one-and-a-half pages whereas The Beatles get 35 pages. That kind of sums it up.

                        Nigel.
                        Obviously the Beatles have their place in music history, and many people are interested in, and enjoy their music... but that still seems a dangerous brand of rationale Nigel... If the next issue of MOJO features a 35 page spread on Britney Spears & one-and-a-half pages on the Beatles will that mean her "music" will be played and appreciated generations from now and that the Beatles are not worth interest?

                        Each to his own I guess, way I see it Bob wasn't saying they were rubbish, just (in his opinon) overrated... Besides why MUST some bands or singers (or even hi-fi brands, check the related forums) be discussed in hushed tones of reverence. Unless I'm missing something here....

                        Comment

                        • Bob
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2000
                          • 802

                          #13
                          BTB, no, you're not missing anything here. By the way, I do still have several of George Harrisons albums. Concert for Banglidesh, All Thngs Must Pass. And the DVD tribute, Concert For George. I saw him when he toured with Ravi Shankar. George was horse and you could barely hear his voice but, the main event was the Indian music. Ravi Shankar's wife was especially good, didn't want her singing to end.

                          For my taste, he was the most interesting and talented of the group. The others, to me, sort of floundered when on their own. John Lennon with his sophmoric political music, Sir Paul with Wings, and Ringo just keeps adding songs to the Yellow Submarine album.

                          Getting back to At War With The Mystics, it is pretty odd stuff. I wouldn't expect many to like it but, if you have the desire to try something new and different, this could be it.

                          Comment

                          • bigburner
                            Super Senior Member
                            • May 2005
                            • 2649

                            #14
                            Originally posted by BTB
                            Obviously the Beatles have their place in music history, and many people are interested in, and enjoy their music... but that still seems a dangerous brand of rationale Nigel... If the next issue of MOJO features a 35 page spread on Britney Spears & one-and-a-half pages on the Beatles will that mean her "music" will be played and appreciated generations from now and that the Beatles are not worth interest?
                            Fair comment BTB. I raised the 35 page / 1.5 page comparison as a point of interest only - i.e. it was an interesting coincidence that the two main protagonists in Bob's argument (The Beatles and The Flaming Lips) happened to feature in the latest MOJO.

                            Having said that, I'm confident that Britney won't get a 35 page spread in MOJO. The day she does is the day that I will cancel my subscription, notwithstanding that she has her place in music history, and many people are interested in, and enjoy her music etc etc.

                            Has anyone listened to "Flight Test" yet? Is it "Father and Son" revisited or is my imagination running away with me?

                            Comment

                            • BTB
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 198

                              #15
                              Originally posted by bigburner
                              Having said that, I'm confident that Britney won't get a 35 page spread in MOJO...
                              I reckon you'd be spot on there...

                              Has anyone listened to "Flight Test" yet? Is it "Father and Son" revisited or is my imagination running away with me?
                              No, I don't think it's your imagination. I guess a truly original idea is rather a hard thing to come by after all?

                              Just out of interest, and not to revisit my other post about musical enjoyment vs. sound quality, but yesterday I took my copy of "At war with the mystics" to a friends house, who has a far, far better quality audio system than I do... good grief ops: ... it sounded absolutely awful, so bad in fact that I asked him to turn it off after about 30 seconds out of sheer embarassment, which he gladly did.

                              Funny, the last issue of British Hi-Fi mag "Hi Fi Choice" gave this a 5 star rating for sound quality. Must've listened on an iPod!!

                              Anyway, probably not truly relevant to the topic, I had taken it over in the hopes of turning him onto the "Lips". So much for that idea :roll:

                              Comment

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