speaker cable and balanced cables

[crytklmass]

which speaker cable do you think is my best option, I have the audio quest rockefeller. (they have 2 black cylinders about 6"long that say 36v) my fronts are 8 feet, I could go 10ft for future expansion. my center is 6 ft, but its a tight fit, so I could bump that up to 8 ft. or buy 2 new fronts and use my 8 foot current audioquest for my center.
what gauge will I really hear a difference? cost vs. benefit. I believe my fronts are 14g. If I switch to 12g is it worth it? will my ears hear the dollar diff.
and which brand? that may be personal preference. my dealer sells audioquest, and another transparent.
my rears are (audioquest quad helix spread spectrum Hyperlitz E226001 ul/cl3 type 2.1 solid long-grain copper). This leads me to my next question. copper vs. silver. Is silver the best for xlr and hdmi? and solid core copper for speaker wire. I do bi-wire.
Im connecting to my B&W 802d's and HTM2D and SCM1 rears.
Im converting my rca cables to balanced, (how much silver content, again cost vs. benefit; hearing a differenct)
that's why I asked about silver content. also my hdmi cable for my denon 3800 blu ray player. costs range from $40-$200. Is it best to run optical for my cd player vs. coax. sorry for so many different questions. I have the money but still lack some knowledge when it comes to cables and I don't want some salesperson to say buy these $600 pair cables when I could buy $200 pair cable and hear the same thing. at some point i'm sure the human ear won't hear a difference while and electronic device may. I don't need 8g cables just to brag. "mine are bigger than yours" lol
thanks for the advice. this forum is awesome.
picture attached.

[Kal Rubinson]

I am speechless.

Kal

[crytklmass]

I am speechless.

Kal

Is that a good or bad thing. LOL

[Kal Rubinson]

Is that a good or bad thing. LOL

Neither. I just read your post and thought that your obsessiveness about these issues is far beyond what I can deal with. "How much silver content?" :E

Perhaps someone else will see eye-to-eye with you and help.

Kal

[dyazdani]

Trying to sift through the questions:

You already have good cable from what you write. I would keep what you have unless you can "demo" other cables. The gauge of the wire is not the only criteria for comparison... No clear "rule" for silver vs. copper that I've experienced. Many people say silver sounds more detailed vs. copper. I've not seen a 1 for 1 relationship. No one can tell what YOUR ears will hear.

I would also not switch to balanced just for sake of doing it.

I prefer coax digital cables over optical, no technical reason. I prefer the connection and build of the cable (maybe though because I've only had cheap opticals?)

[crytklmass]

I was not trying to complicate things with my description of how much silver content, but I know everyone has seen the difference in prices in hdmi cables alone. the more silver the more expensive the cable. some have gold ends, some have silver.
a cheap cable runs about $45.00 while others are up to $200. gold vs. silver. its the same with interconnects. rca vs xlr. cable thickness, length, brand name, and the contents. im just wondering if there really is that big of a difference. I did a quick search look at this price.
HDMI Cable,2 meters High Performance 22AWG Gold Plated Rated Certified 1.3a.24K Gold Plated, and Lifetime Warranty.
Price: $162.00

Maybe its just a personal preference. some people like monster, other audioquest and other transparent. look at some price on audiogon alone. a pair of transparent balanced connectors can cost $2000.00 The reason I asked about the silver content was due to the pricing, the more silver, the higher the price. I wasn't sure if it had something to do with interference or not.

[wettou]

HDMI is either all or nothing it either works or not it is Digital!

[crytklmass]

exactly so my $40 cable is just as good as you $300 calbe. some hold true with rca,balanced speaker cables? why spend $2000 on cables if you can spend $100 and get the same sound. must be bragging rights. like my 32 foot bayliner is better than your 32 foot sea ray.sea ray owners will hang me, but they did spend 2x as much for there boats. if had for 4 years and no problems. little off topic, but you know what i mean.

[Johnloudb]

Just think of all the cheap pro cable that the recording studios use when recording and mastering albums. I'd go cheap on cable personally and save my money for more significant upgrades.

[crytklmass]

I wast trying to start at feud, just wondering what other have used in thre sound symtems and what theyve been happy with.

[crytklmass]

I prefer coax digital cables over optical, no technical reason. I prefer the connection and build of the cable (maybe though because I've only had cheap opticals?)

I feel the same way, I didnt hear a difference, it still plays in digitial or ananlog whichever I choose and I dont have to worry about a cable getting kinked and broke. I thought I would hear a miracle difference, instead I was ticked off I just wasted $50 bucks.

[dyazdani]

Maybe its just a personal preference. some people like monster, other audioquest and other transparent. look at some price on audiogon alone. a pair of transparent balanced connectors can cost $2000.00 The reason I asked about the silver content was due to the pricing, the more silver, the higher the price. I wasn't sure if it had something to do with interference or not.

"Silver content" is only one factor in the pricing of a cable. Taking Transparent as an example since you've seen those, the complexity of the network is another factor. Obviously the other factor is mark-up over the direct cost.

[Johnloudb]

I wast trying to start at feud, just wondering what other have used in thre sound symtems and what theyve been happy with.

Hi, I wasn't either, just offering a different option/perspective. I do have some very expensive cables and I hooked up some cheap ($1) wire between my Benchmark and preamp. Still sounds great. I think cables do affect the sound in some cases, but one might think about equipment upgrades before shelling out $1000 on cable.

Digital cables are more important because they require a high bandwidth and they can introduce jitter between the transport and the DAC. I have Kimber coax digital cable on my Benchmark DAC. I'm very happy with it.

[Lex]

Bob, I would be glad to discuss a no non-sense approach to your cabling needs/requirements. But your writeup is confusing at best, as to what your questions really are.

Let me know if you need some recommendations that I could build for you.

Doug

[impala454]

I'm genuinely curious of a couple things mentioned:

1. What does "long-grain" copper mean? I tried googling it and the only stuff I found on the first couple pages was referring back to the Audioquest cable.

2. What exactly is the silver content of these cables? It sounds like that is the basis for their cost/sound quality. I purchase silver eagles on occasion just for investment/messing around, and usually pay about spot + $3 or so (right now about $15 total per coin). These coins are .999 pure silver and weigh one ounce. Assuming similar densities, if I was to string one of these coins out into a solid cable, it would make a 14awg cable approximately 6' long. If it were finely stranded and then twisted, it would make an even longer cable. Maybe I'm being a little too simple about it, but if silver is the best conductor I don't see how it could get much better than that, and that's $15 in raw materials, x2 for two wires so $30 in raw metal cost, what else is there?

[Glen B]

I am not a metallurgist or wire expert but following is my understanding of high purity wire grades for electronic use.

Long grain copper (LGC) is one of several grades of copper. The "grain” refers to the crystalline structure of the copper. “Long grain” means the crystalline structure is long (and therefore fewer in number) versus wire of lesser grade that has a greater number of crystals. The greater the number of crystals, the more grain boundaries that electrons have to pass through. Conversely, the fewer the number of crystals, the lesser the number of grain boundaries the electrons must pass through.

The type of copper with the longest grain structure and fewest crystalline boundaries is OCC, a.k.a. PCOCC. The methodology for production of OCC was developed by a Professor Ohno (the “O” in OCC) of the Chiba Institute of Japan. A single crystal in OCC copper can be several hundred feet in length, The advantage of this should be immediately obvious in that electrons would have a clear path, devoid of the crystal boundaries found in other grades of wire.

OCC copper is also popularly know by the names “mono-crystal copper” and “single crystal copper". Manufacturer Robert Lee of Acoustic Zen calls the OCC used in his products “zero-crystal copper”.

After years of trying various high-end cable products, to my ears, those made of OCC lack the sonic graininess I've heard in non-OCC cables that I have used. All of the cables in my system currently are OCC copper and silver.

Terms:

OFC = oxygen free copper
LGC = long grain copper
OFHC = oxygen free high conductivity copper
OCC / PCOCC = Ohno continuous cast [copper and silver]/pure copper by Ohno continuous casting

[David Meek]

All, hopefully it won't go that way, but this is just a reminder that cable discussions can degenerate as we've all seen, and that won't be allowed to happen. Open, spirited, in-depth discussions are encouraged but there will be no flaming, insulting, bashing, etc. allowed.

Please, carry on....

HTGuide Administration

[Martyn]

I'm neither a metallurgist nor an electronics engineer, which might explain why I have great difficulty in appreciating why the aspects of materials science that might apply to, say, semiconductors or high-energy physics, should have any significant impact on the passage of an AC signal in a speaker wire.

Is anyone aware of any credible, peer-reviewed scientific research that suggests that any of the variables mentioned in this thread have any audible effect when applied to the construction of speaker wire?

[NonSense]

Hi, I wasn't either, just offering a different option/perspective. I do have some very expensive cables and I hooked up some cheap ($1) wire between my Benchmark and preamp. Still sounds great. I think cables do affect the sound in some cases, but one might think about equipment upgrades before shelling out $1000 on cable.

Digital cables are more important because they require a high bandwidth and they can introduce jitter between the transport and the DAC. I have Kimber coax digital cable on my Benchmark DAC. I'm very happy with it.

John

I would like to offer a differing opinion. In your case, I would suggest that a high end digital cable would make less of a difference. The Benchmark claims to buffer the incomming data and reclock that data using the local DAC reference oscillator. Therefore, I would suggest, that since the data sampling clock is not being extracted from the bit stream, the edge jitter has minimal impact. I have seen several reviews giving high praise to the benchmark, regardless of the quality of the transport being used.

[dyazdani]

I'm neither a metallurgist nor an electronics engineer, which might explain why I have great difficulty in appreciating why the aspects of materials science that might apply to, say, semiconductors or high-energy physics, should have any significant impact on the passage of an AC signal in a speaker wire.

Is anyone aware of any credible, peer-reviewed scientific research that suggests that any of the variables mentioned in this thread have any audible effect when applied to the construction of speaker wire?

The crystal structure can impact electron flow through a conductor because at each grain interface, there is/may be defects that impeded the flow.

That said (and going back to your question), I would suspect it is very hard to correlate the two because of the subjectiveness of an audible test (as is obviously the crux of any cable deabte).

[wettou]

This is the most controversial issue in HIFI can cables make a difference there has been many test where coat hangers have shown equivalent sound to ver very very high end cables that are thousands of $$$ per meter. The best rip off in high end audio margins are over a 1000%.

Go for gold cables if you have $$ to loose :B

[Johnloudb]

John

I would like to offer a differing opinion. In your case, I would suggest that a high end digital cable would make less of a difference. The Benchmark claims to buffer the incomming data and reclock that data using the local DAC reference oscillator. Therefore, I would suggest, that since the data sampling clock is not being extracted from the bit stream, the edge jitter has minimal impact. I have seen several reviews giving high praise to the benchmark, regardless of the quality of the transport being used.

I agree with you, almost. I have the older Benchmark with the 24bit/96KHz DAC. It may have the same type of re-clocking as the newer one, I don't know. But many DACs are more sensitive to digital cables, as they use either no jitter reduction or phase-locked loops to control jitter. I suspect most modern DACs have some jitter reduction circuitry. I once owned the PS Audio Digital Link III which seemed to be pretty sensitive digital cables, and the Kimber Illuminations did a good job. I sold the PS Audio because I prefer the Benchmark in my system. Both good DACs though.

Analog cables may influence the sound, but I don't find that "better" cables always sound better. Often worse (to my ears) and it's easier to experiment with cheap cable. Any who, I certainly don't expect to end any debate on cables.

[r100gs]

Wow! Normally one would be cat gutted for even talking about cables on this forum!

[Alaric]

Wow! Normally one would be cat gutted for even talking about cables on this forum!

I think the effect of different materials has always been ok. The only times I've seen it get ugly is when people (figuratively) walk in to the owner's house and wizz on his furniture.

I've found good , shielded silver ICs sound best in my system. I'm still waiting to try out my new speaker cables.

Is anyone aware of any credible, peer-reviewed scientific research that suggests that any of the variables mentioned in this thread have any audible effect when applied to the construction of speaker wire?

Yeah. Coat hangers are a bitch to route neatly....

[wettou]

I think the effect of different materials has always been ok. The only times I've seen it get ugly is when people (figuratively) walk in to the owner's house and wizz on his furniture. I've found good , shielded silver ICs sound best in my system. I'm still waiting to try out my new speaker cables. Yeah. Coat hangers are a bitch to route neatly....

Silver yes just a bit too expensive try this Homegrown Audio site


http://www.homegrownaudio.com/silver_braid.htm

[Glen B]

The following links are to a study on AC power line noise (with measurements) and is required reading, especially for anyone who is sceptical about the efficacy of power line tweaks. The author is a professor of EE and audio enthusiast.

Part 1: http://www.psaudio.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4122

Part 2: http://boards.psaudio.com/showthread.php?t=4123

[r100gs]

I think the effect of different materials has always been ok. The only times I've seen it get ugly is when people (figuratively) walk in to the owner's house and wizz on his furniture.

Now that is funny!

[Victor]

I actually conducted the ‘coat hanger’ test in a public forum and I must attest that it is true; - the coat hangers produced identical result, on the statistical basis, to the control group which was, if memory serves, a megabuck Kimber cable as thick as half of my wrist. It was just about as funny as it was educational indeed.

Having said that, I also must point out, that as far as our understanding of physics is concerned, the particular material used to manufacture the wire has nothing to do with the quality of signal transmission for audio purposes in a reasonable home environment. So the coat hangers are perfectly suitable, although I would not personally use them, - they are not comfortable to work with.

Another thing to note, - is that many people have this perception that the particular electron is somehow navigating through the conductor and therefore covering the distance, - this is not so at all. The electrons do not do that, or at the very least Quantum Mechanics tells us that they do not. Consequently all the discussion of various copper grades like the OCC grade or whatever is not applicable here. Furthermore, it is impossible to correlate the electron behavior in a particular conductor to the perceived sound quality.

Indeed one can use a material with different grain structures, but it has no impact on signal flow as far as audio is concerned. It does have an impact on material properties of the wire, such as resistance, capacitance and inductance, but, again, for audio purposes it is a non-issue. To say otherwise is to reject the physics as we understand it today. Let me put it another way, - the signal integrity is virtually unchanged regardless if the conductor is silver, copper or wire-hanger. Naturally I am assuming here an audio system used in a reasonable home environment.

So it leaves us with a question, - what does impact the sound? So far my experience says that two things take the cake here, - they are amplitude variations, and distortion/noise above a certain level. Nothing else can be reliably demonstrated as a sound degrading culprit so far. The wire, - well, is just not the part of this equation.

The wire is still an important part of the system, that is to say that inappropriate use of wire will lead to the degradation of the listening experience, - the wire can always make things worse, but once the problem is corrected it cannot make things better.