CD's vs. Vinyl for Audiophiles

[Russ L]

One thing I believe, however, is that a digital format (maybe not necessary a CD 16bit/44.1Hz) should and can duplicate the "sound" of an LP. However, it definitely takes breaking many of the bad habbits that the recording industry does with CDs to get this all corrected.

Given an excellent CD player or DAC and a properly mastered CD from early 90's to present...a CD will out perform LP by a good measure. Problem is outside of Classical and Jazz finding a properly mastered CD. EXs: Neil Young's "Prairie Wind", Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philadelphia" and Martina McBride's "Timeless" come to mind. Beautiful extended highs, clear mids and deep bass coming out of an extremely low noise floor. No rumble (subway train?) or wow and flutter! No sonic decay! The technology is finally top rate but few will go to the expense of producing quality CDs now. Well worth the search tho

[Alaric]

Oh , for cryin'-out-loud. I prefer vinyl. The "air" around the instruments is present with vinyl , and not with CDs. You can throw numbers and digital "proof" at me 'til the cows come home and none of it will change what I hear. I have some CDs that I love , and some of them are "duplicates" of my albums. I prefer the vinyl. I like both a lot , but when push comes to shove-give me vinyl.
I'm also 46 years old and may not be hearing what the youngsters are hearing. Doesn't matter to me-old guys are right-nyaa-nyaa-nyaa-nyaa-nyaaaaahhhhh!. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ShadowZA]

...
I'm also 46 years old ...

Hey Alaric, you're not old. It takes about 46 years or so to see what's out there ... now it's time to go out and GET SOME! :T

[Russ L]

Oh , for cryin'-out-loud. I prefer vinyl. The "air" around the instruments is present with vinyl , and not with CDs.

Yes, there is a "presence" in LPs that CDs do not have.

I'm also 46 years old and may not be hearing what the youngsters are hearing. Doesn't matter to me-old guys are right-nyaa-nyaa-nyaa-nyaa-nyaaaaahhhhh!. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ha, I'm older than you. :rofl: :rofl: 46? Thats not old. I have pimples older than that! :E

[btf1980]

Hey now, young guys appreciate vinyl too. I'm 27, and I still spin lp's. 8)

[gymguymass]

While I would never call myself an "audiophile" I do believe that the differences between CD's and vinyl can vary depending on the recording. I have the 200gm copy of "Houses of the Holy" and the CD, which, from what I understand, come from the same master. Listening to "No Quarter" on both, I am easily able to subtle differences in the lower frequencies on vinyl, that are not present on the CD. It's as if the vinyl version has "more" info. Listening to "Tom Sawyer", I notice more impact on Neil's drumming during this song, that is simply missing from the CD (and on other vinyl I have by Rush). And my vinyl copy is nothing special! On the other hand, "Lateralus" by Tool sounds, to me, the same on both versions.

I don't pretend to know why these differences exist. For me, listening to vinyl is a more involving experience, as I have to be aware that I have to flip the record in 18-24 minutes once I put the needle down!

And my analog set-up is pretty basic at thIS time: ProJect Xpression II turntable feeding the phono stage of my Rotel RC1070 preamp. I do want to upgrade my cartridge and purchase a separate phono stage though. I believe those 2 upgrades will enable me to enjoy my vinyl even more. :T

[Chris D]

Good post, gymguymass.

[wettou]

Quality

I listen to CDs, SACDs, LPs, DVD Audio and now Blu Ray audio and like every thing else i all depends on the quality of the master and manufacturing.

I have to say good SACD symphonies take them all. Now I ordered one of the first Blu Ray Audio to be released and am looking forward to it.

I will keep you posted:T

[Alaric]

I listen to CDs, SACDs, LPs, DVD Audio and now Blu Ray audio and like every thing else i all depends on the quality of the master and manufacturing.

I have to say good SACD symphonies take them all. Now I ordered one of the first Blu Ray Audio to be released and am looking forward to it.

I will keep you posted:T

Now , if you're going to be all reasonable and fair about this , I can't play the crusty old guy.....

Hey Alaric, you're not old

I keep telling people that.....

[wettou]

Now , if you're going to be all reasonable and fair about this , I can't play the crusty old guy..... I keep telling people that.....

I am not sure I get it!

[Johnloudb]

I am not sure I get it!

I think Lee (Alaric) quoted the wrong post! :Z

[Johnloudb]

I just just compared Natalie Merchant, "Tiger Lily" on CD to a new one I bought on 45rpm vinyl. Sound really good on CD. Then I played the LP and Died! I'm still dead. Wow, no comparison. The LP is better!

Well, just my emotionally detached, objective opinion. :B

Obviously, I highly recommend that LP. Natalie Merchant is such a talented singer and artist.

[Hdale85]

Not to be harsh here...but in my opinion I think you older guys have more experience with vinyl when you were younger and there for have a more emotional attachment to it now. I have heard some awesomely recorded CD's and they sound just as good if not sometimes better (cleaner?) then the vinyls. Granted I do agree there are some horribly recorded cd's out there and a huge difference is going to be the quality of your DAC. One of the reasons its so easy to get vinyl to sound good is because there is no DAC conversion and so you don't need an amazing DAC to pull the best out of it. Not so true with CD's. I have a rather good DAC I feel and I feel that CD's are in most cases just as good as long as they are well recorded and mastered. But either way if it is an emotional thing for you guys I understand it quite well I like Vinyl because its neat but I'm not sure I would ever dump the kind of money some do into it.

[PewterTA]

I agree with Dougie, but I disagree completely.

I have *yet* to hear a CD that sounds like the engineering work done on a LP. I do agree that I think that most CDs are "Cleaner" sound, but that isn't always better.

I still have YET to hear a CD that has the 3D aspects to it for which I have heard on Vinyl. I forget exactly which LP it is, but wkhanna has one LP that for certain you can tell not only a left to right sound stage separation that's huge, but also a front to back separation. Some trumpets stick out right in front of you (as if you could touch them) and others are definitely a couple feet back behind the speakers. It's a really "neat" experience that I have yet to get on and CD including the same mastered copy of that LP.

Now with that said, I've heard CDs that have either a forward sound to them and a few that seem to play beyond the speaker in the back...but none have yet to create that whole 3D feel to it. Not saying it can't be done...but I don't think the time/effort/DACs hit in synergy to create it.

Again, this goes back to the engineering. The first "CD/MP3 newly created" track that I've heard that gets remarkably close is off of the new Weezer CD. Track is called "The Greatest Man That Ever Lived (Variations On A Shaker Hymn)," and at about 1:50 mark the music switches from the band to them singing in a huge hall. There is definitely a nice feel of the vocals dropping into the background and the echo of the hall in the track. And that's with the MP3 version, not even the CD which does a better job with my CA 640c V2.

What I wish is there would be someone that creates greatly engineered music and a "somewhat" cheap unreal DAC to see exactly what that old technology can bring.

[Hdale85]

The only thing Vinyl really has to offer over CD's is resolution. If you transfer what vinyl is to a bitrate it would be much higher then CD's. Now weather or not everyone can hear that extra resolution is another story...other then that its all about the implementation of the DAC and the synergy of the system.

[exojam]

I just recently picked up a Rega Planar 3 with an RB300 and dropped an Ortofon Blue on it. Than proceeded to make a little sandbox for it to sit on. Set the little guy up, plugged it to my Denon 3803 and have been having a blast ever since.

I actually went out to the record store this weekend and had fun just flipping through the records. Ended up picking the Ramones and The Who “Who’s Next”. I had all ready purchased a few records online that were either 180 or 200 gram to start with and must say, it sounds great. I am very happy to have gotten back into vinyl.

Once my new speakers arrive I know things are going to break around the house with the thumping that will be taking place.

[PewterTA]

To me, this is a pretty good demo of how the engineering of the CD is not like what the album is.

Demo Clip
The first half is the CD version that was released, the second is the rip from Vinyl.

[Hdale85]

But thats probably not representing the absolute best cd master thats out there... and chances are the best mastered stuff doesn't have Vinyl counter parts so its quite hard to make good comparisons. Whats really working against us here is there is no standard to mastering quality.

[Johnloudb]

Dougie, who you calling old!! :M : Kidding - I really don't care, I'm only 38.

I have an excellent modern DAC and my LP rig and phono preamp are certainly not state of the art. Here's the problem with CD, IMO:



Quantization error/noise . The ear is more sensitive to certain types of distortion and noise than others. The CD has a flatter noise spectrum than LP. From what I've read the LP has less high frequency noise than the CD. But more lower frequency noise where the ear is less sensitive to it. It's a more appealing noise spectrum. And the LP has a greater dynamic range at high frequencies.

It's a complicated subject though and I'm no expert.

I've heard outstanding CDs but I get a more "I am there" feeling and high frequency "air" from high quality LPs. Obviously, it's all a matter of opinion and what sounds good to your ears. CDs are certainly more convenient, and less trouble that's for sure.

[Johnloudb]

To me, this is a pretty good demo of how the engineering of the CD is not like what the album is.

Demo Clip
The first half is the CD version that was released, the second is the rip from Vinyl.

I've heard some rips from that sound great as well. There is probably something to that.

[Hdale85]

Well error correcting is one of the big pit falls of a CD player I think. This is one of the reason I like ripping all my music to FLAC or some other lossless format because you can get perfect error correcting and have a completely flawless copy. Playing back through a CD player you don't get that. I actually don't use CD's that much almost all of my music (90%) is FLAC then about 18% is MP3's and I own a few cd's. Sometimes I can actually tell the difference between a FLAC file and playing the same thing from the same CD that it was ripped from. When I do notice this the FLAC is always better. My issues with vinyl is that its to easy to mess up and its to easy to have something that will degrade the SQ like dust and what not. And then cleaning can mess it up there are just so many things to go wrong with vinyl .

[wkhanna]

I still have YET to hear a CD that has the 3D aspects to it for which I have heard on Vinyl. I forget exactly which LP it is, but wkhanna has one LP that for certain you can tell not only a left to right sound stage separation that's huge, but also a front to back separation. Some trumpets stick out right in front of you (as if you could touch them) and others are definitely a couple feet back behind the speakers. It's a really "neat" experience that I have yet to get on and CD including the same mastered copy of that LP.

I think the album you are referring to is 'Digital Duke'. This recording is from the Duke Ellington Band which was lead by Mercer K. Ellington, Dukes’s son, along with some V talented young musicians, and as tribute to The Duke, posthumously carries his name. As the album name indicates, the original master is digital, and both the CeeDee and Vinyl formats were made from it and first released in 1987 on the GRP label. Along with PewterTA's observations, I would add that it takes less than 30 seconds to confirm with absolute certainty that transients are more powerful and defined and HF has more air, clarity and realism on the big black platter when compared to the tiny shiny silver one.

...but in my opinion I think you older guys have more experience with vinyl when you were younger and there for have a more emotional attachment to it now.

In my own case, I will respectfully disagree with you, Dougie, on this point. The typical analog systems those of us over the age of say, 40 or so, were listening to were of V low sound quality, as was the condition of the vinyl in many cases. In our youth, there was seldom money for good quality playback rigs, and the care and nurturing of the vinyl itself often suffered from the somewhat skewed priority of the need to separate seeds and stems along with fact that album jackets were universally thought to have been created with two intrinsic purposes, one of which was its use a beer can coaster.

Also, my generation spent way more time transferring LP’s to cassette tapes than actually listening to vinyl. Come to think of it, I might guess the overall SQ of an MP3 may be better than the stuff we typically listened to. (I must, for the sake of disclosure, admit that I can not ever recall having heard an MP3 in my life)

While there may in fact be a portion of the recent resurgence of interest in vinyl due to the desire of the Baby-boomer generation to in some way recapture their youth, it is my personal opinion that regardless of why one either returns to vinyl or is discovering it for the first time, they are met with the pleasant surprise that causes them to consistently repeat the phase, ‘I’m hearing things I never knew were on these songs before!’

AFA the ultimate capability of Digital vs. Analog, I am willing to make a guess based on all that I have read in print and heard in real life. Digital and DACs may be able to simulate analog V closely, enough that it would be indistinguishable to the human ear, but any player with this capability whether Redbook, HD or SACD has a retail cost that is unrealistic to the majority of consumers who desire such performance. I am willing to bet that my $700 used vinyl TT rig could easily compete with $3500 digital decks/DACs.

As always, JMHO

[Hdale85]

Yeah I understand Bill, and you have heard MP3's as when I brought my laptop over and we were listening to some music some of it was MP3 although not the best thing to judge by because at the time I didn't have my good DAC. My problem with 3500 dollar transports is even at that price category there are many compromises. As you know I'm all about DIY everything just about (although I recently purchased an Emotiva amp) I think in a DIY situation I can make much less of a compromise although most people wouldn't be able to do this I understand so you may not include it as a realistic option. There are a few things I heard at your place when I came to check out the TT that I thought were definitely better then the CD version. That 10,000 Maniacs song definitely sounded better on your TT but I still think it was a matter of mastering quality. There was some other stuff that I felt sounded just as good on my system as it did yours though. Granted this is hard to judge because wasn't really a side by side comparison just had to go by what I remembered. I really want to get that Sabre DAC I had been telling you guys about and do some real side by side comparisons. Someday that will come unfortunately I do have the money for the Sabre but twisted pear audio is on vacation for an unspoken amount of time so that they can get caught up with their pre orders and what not....which also even though I have the money the likelihood that I would be able to get one right now are pretty slim as pre orders are selling out fast. What it all comes down to with HiFi though is what makes you happy and I couldn't be more enthusiastic that your relatively happy with your setup as well as others.

[wkhanna]

I think the album you are referring to is 'Digital Duke'.

Second thought, it may be the Sheffield Lab label copy of the ‘The King James Version’, the Harry James Orchestra, recorded direct to disc. This one sounds 'Creepy Real'! :E

[wkhanna]

.....and you have heard MP3's as when I brought my laptop over and we were listening to some music some of it was MP3 although not the best thing to judge by because at the time I didn't have my good DAC.

Well…..I’ll be an audio nerds SPL meter!

That would in fact then, have to have been the night of my last birthday, which would definitely explain why I have no recollection at all of the event!
I do however, remember some bits up to the point when I opened the bottle of Porto my wife got for me. 8x)

[Hdale85]

Yes I remember the Porte :B And yes that would of been the night.... noone knew it was your birthday except me and unfortunately I didn't find out until everyone else left lol.

By the way Bill I sent you a PM. Not sure if you seen it.

[Alaric]

In our youth, there was seldom money for good quality playback rigs, and the care and nurturing of the vinyl itself often suffered from the somewhat skewed priority of the need to separate seeds and stems along with fact that album jackets were universally thought to have been created with two intrinsic purposes, one of which was its use a beer can coaster.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm willing to bet there may be a foreign substance or two still in the creases of some of my album jackets. (or dust that used to be foreign substances) Especially the ones with coaster rings on them....
My vinyl rig in '84 was actually not too bad. The CDs I heard in the early years sounded awful. My cassette deck sounded way better than every CD player I heard. Maybe that jaded my perception , although I have several CDs I really like now. Might be the high frequency hearing loss of the elderly or a willingness to give it a fair comparison now. Or huge leaps in the quality of CDs and playback equipment.
I love my CD/SACD player , but vinyl still "does it" for me. No matter how 'accurate' CDs are , there is still something rigid and structured about the reproduction. "You vill play der musik like zo.
My $.02

[Hdale85]

I still feel that regardless the kind of equipment you had back then vinyl still gives you that certain sound that you remember and can relate to. Not that this is bad at all like I said its all about enjoyment. And transferring vinyl to cassette still gives you the vinyl sound Just like transferring vinyl to FLAC files on the PC you still get that vinyl sound.

[Alaric]

I agree completely. There are bits of songs and other sounds that can transport me immediately back to my youth. However , my 'lil Music Hall TT and Bellari phono amp give me a deeper soundstage than my Marantz SA8260. Granted , neither are top of the line , but the Marantz is a very nice player-above it's price point. Compared to the vinyl it's very clean , almost too clean. There is an 'atmosphere' to live music that vinyl captures , and seems to be missing from CD.
Now , there are CD players and speakers I haven't heard , so I can't say it's a "rule" , but for me , vinyl has more.

[Alaric]

BTW , Dougie , how's your TT project coming?

[Hdale85]

haha... I haven't started it never planned on starting it for a while it was just kind of something I was making some plans for. I'm not sure when it will get started...some day maybe. Right now building new speakers and thats going to take a little while. Hoping to have the L/R done in about a month though.

[Alaric]

I'll bet that new Emotiva just stares at you accusingly , wanting to know where it's speakers are!

[Hdale85]

Yeah.... its depressing. Soon....very soon...I'm working as fast as I can..lol unfortunately some of my cabinet parts from the CNC guy I used are running a little behind but he said they should all ship sometime next week I hope anyways. Speaker parts should be ordered next wed/thurs and then its just a matter of waiting for the crossover design to be finalized and ordering those parts.

[Alaric]

Don't tell me! Buy your amp a drink and sweet-talk it! Maybe it will forgive you!

Seriously , I'm dying to hear your take on the amp. I'm looking hard at Emotiva around tax-time (RSP-1 and XPA-2).

[Hdale85]

Yeah you and me both Heck when the speakers are built if you happen to be in the Pittsburgh area you could swing in :B I wouldn't mind.

[Alaric]

I have family in the Philly area and points west of Philly. I drive past the Pitt exit on the way there. I would love to hear your speakers! I'm also looking to upgrade my speaks with a DIY project , but I'm way down the learning curve-and my current speakers are beyond my electronics. The 250 wpc Emotiva may actually give my Paradigms a little exercise. If I could sell them for a grand and build better speakers for the $1K , I'll be a happy camper.
I've been looking at the Usher Monitor kits at Parts Express , with an eye towards a sub to pick up the bottom-end slack. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=302-953

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-760

My current integrated doesn't have a LFE out , so I'll need a new set-up. The Emotiva looks like a strong performer with this set-up. I know 'kits' aren't the hot set-up , but I'm less than noob in the speak building world , so I have to start somewhere.

[Hdale85]

Well... if your willing to assemble a crossover there isn't much more to do then a kit. Honestly its not that hard and we get a lot of n newbs every day building speakers in the DIY section But when they are done your most certainly welcomed to swing by some time.

[Alaric]

Dougie , you are all over the place tonight! If I get a chance to swing by , how about some hoagies? I make a mean sandwich. Capicola , boiled ham , proscuitto , Genoa salami , shredded lettuce , thin-sliced onion , tomato, olive oil , oregano , provolone cheese. I'm a food whore.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I'm a pretty big foodie too...I cook a lot lol. But yeah that sounds yummy Just going to have to give me about a month to get the speakers finished. Minus the tomato for me though. I can pick it out though :B Lately I've been into creating my own cheesecake recipe though and I think I've got it all perfected..... I think I should start selling them online or something haha!

[Alaric]

CHEESECAKE!? Oh Dear God. You are rapidly becoming a deity! I'll make the sandwiches , you make the cheesecake. Hell , I'll pack up and bring my speakers! And my amp , and my TT , and my dog-whatever it takes! CHEESECAKE!? I'm there , Dude!

[Hdale85]

Lol.... well recently I let a good friend of ours (around 60 years old I think) try some of my cheesecakes. One was a white chocolate raspberry the other was a turtle cheesecake I made and she said they were the best she's ever had by quite a large margin. I'm not bragging honestly I don't know I'm a bit unsure if they are the best....although best I've made for sure and I like them a lot

[wkhanna]

I have family in the Philly area and points west of Philly. I drive past the Pitt exit on the way there.

Lee, let us know your schedule next time you come by the 'bugh', and I will set up a meet at my place. It would be great to have you over!

[Hdale85]

Yeah that could be arranged I was planning on making a cheesecake to bring to the next get together any how :B

[PewterTA]

I'll bring the home made wine and potentially a Cambridge Audio 840c CDP. You know, to better help with the CD or Vinyl thing. :T

[Hdale85]

I'll believe it when I see it.... you've been talking about getting that CDP for a long time.