CD players- Which one?

[stevo238]

I want to upgrade my player from my current Cambridge Audio 640C v.1. I'd like to keep it under a thousand bucks and the following players all seem to fit that bill.....PS Audio's digital link III (dac), CEC 3300R, Consonance CD-120 linear, MarantZ SA-8001, and Rega Apollo.
Your opinions count. Do any of these players rise above the others in making good music. Thanks.

Steve

[PewterTA]

To be honest, none of those players are going to make a "life changing" alteration to the sound of your CDP.

If anything I'd get the CA 640c v2! Or push it for the 840c.

I've got the v2 and I know for a fact (to my ears) it was better than the Marantz and Rega.

Probably a better question to ask you is "what are you not satisfied with," in the CA...that way we could possibly find a better CDP for ya by what you are wanting different.

[Briz vegas]

If only there were a reliable way of telling what "upgrade" gives the best improvement in a system.

CD players are tricky. I recently heard a fairly heavily modified Shanling T80 vs my Naim player. The owner of the Shanling was having a hard time picking the difference, where as I had no problem at all - I was happy to have paid more than double the dollars (yes it would have been nice to have had the sound at the same price as the Shanling plus mods - but I could not find it- I just liked the sound of the Naim player so you pay the price).

Each of the players you have listed has a good reputation but each will sound a little different (so it comes down to your taste). I have heard the Apollo and to me it has a very understated kind of sound - very low fatigue (I was stressing at the time I heard it and it was like taking a deep breath and relaxing - very easy to listen to, and I don't mean that in a bad way). The Naim by comparison just says - this is the song, isn't it a groovy tune. Again, there was a very big price difference.

I would keep an open mind and look at the whole system - and I mean everything from what the CDP is sitting on, to cables, amps, etc (my player sounds better on the top shelf of my equipement rack- I put it down to the fact that the top shelf is more solid). First time I went out to buy a CDP I came back with a pre-amp. My receiver was masking the differences between the CDPs I was auditioning so that had to be fixed first.

[stevo238]

640C CD player

My CD player sits on the top shelf also. I use a Wireworld Oasis 5 interconnect connected to my Classe' CAP-101 integrated. That amp is a keeper. Smooth sounding and built to last. That's connected via DH Labs Q-10 speaker cable to Revel M22 monitors. Also keepers.
The weak link here I think is the source. The 640C's treble can glare at times on some material. Could be recording related but not always. Images smear at times especially at high dB levels and I know a better player can sort that out. The Consonance CD-120 linear has a reputation for sounding like analog. The Apollo has received every kind of positive review there is. Those and the PS audio I think are the ones to beat.
By the way, for those 640C v.2 fans, Cambridge Audio is in the process of upgrading this model again.

Steve

[JonMarsh]

My CD player sits on the top shelf also. I use a Wireworld Oasis 5 interconnect connected to my Classe' CAP-101 integrated. That amp is a keeper. Smooth sounding and built to last. That's connected via DH Labs Q-10 speaker cable to Revel M22 monitors. Also keepers.
The weak link here I think is the source. The 640C's treble can glare at times on some material. Could be recording related but not always. Images smear at times especially at high dB levels and I know a better player can sort that out. The Consonance CD-120 linear has a reputation for sounding like analog. The Apollo has received every kind of positive review there is. Those and the PS audio I think are the ones to beat.
By the way, for those 640C v.2 fans, Cambridge Audio is in the process of upgrading this model again.

Steve

What do you mean by "high" levels? What you're describing sounds more like limitations of your small bookshelf two way speaker system- not the sort of artifact likely to show up in a DAC, as there's no more electrical effort or distortion to reproduce the higher levels than the low- quite a different situation exists with the speaker, and possibly the amplifier (next suspect in the chain).

Purely weighing in on the CDP, be careful if you're restricting yourself to the sub $1K range not to just wind up with a lateral change- in that regard I agree with PewterTA. If you're only after CDP, no SACD, then I'd suggest auditioning the Cambridge 840C V2. Very nice piece for the money, and a much clearer step up. But I wouldn't expect it to clear up the things you're hearing in your system. Sorry. Smallish two ways tax a tweeter quite a bit, there's a reason Revel offers larger models with more drivers. :W

Good luck in your search for your next upgrade.

Best regards,

Jon

[Vince Helm]

I want to upgrade my player from my current Cambridge Audio 640C v.1. I'd like to keep it under a thousand bucks and the following players all seem to fit that bill.....PS Audio's digital link III (dac), CEC 3300R, Consonance CD-120 linear, MarantZ SA-8001, and Rega Apollo.
Your opinions count. Do any of these players rise above the others in making good music. Thanks.

Steve

Hey Steve, The fine folks at PS Audio are in the process of building and soon (end of the year) selling a new, super cool, CD transport. Should be about $1,000. to $1,200. Please know that this will be a transport only... buy the PS Audio Ditital Link III now and add the transport later!!! :T

Good Luck
Vince

[stevo238]

high decibel levels

By high levels I mean high (db) levels as I stated. I like listening to music loud. The Revel's are more than up to the task of delivering loud levels and not distorting even with their 85 db sensitivity. The M22's are a lively and exciting listen. They are more than up to the task of being driven by amps rated at 300 watts. The speakers are not the problem guys. I'm looking for CD player recommendations. Regards.

[PewterTA]

Well right there, if you are turning up your system and the sound is distorting, it's not your CDP. It in no way changes the sound as you turn up the volume and get to higher dB levels...that is all done by the PRE/PRO.

I will say that CA is a tad "brighter" with their highs. In that case a good option would be the Rotel RCD-1072 which I felt was a bit 'warmer' or 'softer' in the higher range. It's not that anything was missing, it just sounded not as "crisp" to me. I judge that from the fact that I know exactly what cymbals sound like and "sound" I like them to be.

So maybe something like the Rotel would "soften" the highs for you enough.

I know my CA 640c V2 sounds identical at low volumes as it does at higher volumes...and I actually really like it at higher volumes, but I don't want to kill my hearing worse than it already is... lol The only difference I notice is where my pre/amp shows how much power they really have.

[rick c]

was wondering if you've looked into vac tube cd players,like from jolida.I actually picked up an eastern electrc minimax tube player,which i decided on over the rotel rcd1072.It's just an option.

[stevo238]

Thanks. I'll take a look at the tubed players. To the gentleman that brought up distortion, all I can say is I never mentioned distortion. I said the speakers don't distort. Glare is what I hear sometimes at high db levels and I think you could reasonably compare that to bright. I'll try to be more clear in the future. Maybe I should look for a player that roles off the high frequencies eh?

[Briz vegas]

At that price range I think tubes are your best bet (I would not be holding my breath however). I think the CA 840 is also worth a look - even if it is just to compare its performance with your current player.

A tube pre-amp might help but you are using an integrated so that it not an option.

Let us know how you get on.

[stevo238]

Thanks for the good info Briz.

[zmanbands]

Here is a thread that covers tube CD players

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/936863.aspx

[whoaru99]

Thanks. I'll take a look at the tubed players. To the gentleman that brought up distortion, all I can say is I never mentioned distortion. I said the speakers don't distort. Glare is what I hear sometimes at high db levels and I think you could reasonably compare that to bright. I'll try to be more clear in the future. Maybe I should look for a player that roles off the high frequencies eh?

I'm with the others this one and I think Jon hit it right on the head. If the glare only appears at high volumes, replacing your CD player is unlikely to be the solution.

If you like loud music, small two-way speakers @ 85db sensitivity and a 100wpc amp is not the formula to achieve that goal. It's even worse if you are trying to fill a medium or large size room with loud sound.

Hey, nobody is bashing your gear, it's fine quality stuff. However, it seems it may not be the optimum setup for your particular listening style.

You asked for advice about a problem. Would it be right for people to tell you only what you wanted to hear? Or, are you interested in advice about what is more likely to solve your problem?

[dtb300]

The weak link here I think is the source.

Then you need to go out and find some other players to compare yours against. Some stores will let you bring home models to demo, others will not. You may have to take your player to some stores to compare against other players. If you truely think all your other components are fine and it is the source, then find a new source.

The 640C's treble can glare at times on some material.

Either the player exhibits glare or it does not. When it happens some of the time this would then point to the recording being played and not the nature of the player. If it glares, it glares all the time - it cannot change.

Could be recording related but not always.

Again in my opinion, the player just plays the recording and should not change according to levels being listened to. If it sounds good at low levels, it will/should sound good at high levels, if other components in your setup allow it.

Images smear at times especially at high dB levels and I know a better player can sort that out.

There are many things that can affect the sound at high dB levels. First what are high dB levels to you? Some feel 85 is high, some 95, others 105 is high levels.

If the effect you are hearing is ONLY at high dB levels, have you ever thought about the room and its affect on the sound? Your room has one of the greatest affects on the sound you will hear, then the recording, then all the other components, cables, etc.

[stevo238]

Maybe I should have asked, can anybody just recommend a good CD player that roles off the high frequencies....................

[Vince Helm]

Maybe I should have asked, can anybody just recommend a good CD player that roles off the high frequencies....................

Try the PS Audio Dac. You can try it for 30 days and return it if your not happy.

Best of luck
Vince

[whoaru99]

Maybe I should have asked, can anybody just recommend a good CD player that roles off the high frequencies....................

:roll:

[stevo238]

Is that Sam Jaffe's precept, the elder actor from Ben Casey? Just having some fun.

[dtb300]

Maybe I should have asked, can anybody just recommend a good CD player that roles off the high frequencies....................

I do not know why you would want that, but hey it is your setup....With that note, some of the Sony players have a setting (filter) where it will soften the high end.

Dan

[zmanbands]

Corallary

There is something you don't know, the knowing of which will change everything!!!

[wkhanna]

So, in other words............

"....because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know"

[whoaru99]

So, in other words............

"....because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know"

Yeah!! That's it. I think..... :lol:

[stevo238]

The End..

[wkhanna]

Maybe I should have asked, can anybody just recommend a good CD player that roles off the high frequencies....................

Maybe something with a tube would be more to your liking?
Are there any shops near you where you can audition CDp's?
If so, maybe take your CDp with you and see if you can duplicate the problem you describe.

[whoaru99]

The End..

I think you got a couple good tidbits of advice and respectable opinion regarding the amp and speakers, but seems it wasn't really what you wanted to hear.

Again, in and of themselves neither the speakers or amp are bad components, just that pairing is not really made for loud (how loud yet undefined) listening.

[stevo238]

Im a little late getting back to the party so I'll just say this for the guys who recommended tubed CD players and the others who said there were other things going on in my system. I looked into tubed players and you may be on to something. I think it's logical that maybe a small and somewhat bright room, not the greatest of recordings, and possibly mismatched electronic components, (the last one I still think is a stretch) could be tempered by a more analog sounding tube player offering warmth and smoother highs. I'll look into tubes further. Thanks for all your suggestions.

Steve

[dtb300]

Steve...

Give the tube players a shot, you may really like the sound from them. The only tube player I have heard that I like is the Modwright Sony Players, all the others I have heard really did nothing for me in the way of sound reproduction.

You have to remember, there is no Holy Grail component to solve issues with playback of recorded sound. The sound you get is dependent on the source you are playing, and the complete system synergy thing (all parts of your system together playing the music). For myself it has taken many years of buying, selling, buying, selling, to get my setup sounding really good. Smooth but extended highs (not rolled off), tight, accurate, powerful bass, and amazing midrange vocal reproduction. But with a great sounding setup, comes the drawback of bad recordings really sound bad, but great recordings are phenominal.

Your room also has a great influenece on the sound - hard floors, walls, glass doors, etc, can make any smooth or laid back system sound bright.

I hope the tube player helps you on your quest, but do not be surprised if it does not make as much of a difference as you may hope it does.

Dan

[JonMarsh]

Steve...

Give the tube players a shot, you may really like the sound from them. The only tube player I have heard that I like is the Modwright Sony Players, all the others I have heard really did nothing for me in the way of sound reproduction.

You have to remember, there is no Holy Grail component to solve issues with playback of recorded sound. The sound you get is dependent on the source you are playing, and the complete system synergy thing (all parts of your system together playing the music). For myself it has taken many years of buying, selling, buying, selling, to get my setup sounding really good. Smooth but extended highs (not rolled off), tight, accurate, powerful bass, and amazing midrange vocal reproduction. But with a great sounding setup, comes the drawback of bad recordings really sound bad, but great recordings are phenominal.

Your room also has a great influenece on the sound - hard floors, walls, glass doors, etc, can make any smooth or laid back system sound bright.

I hope the tube player helps you on your quest, but do not be surprised if it does not make as much of a difference as you may hope it does.

Dan

Or, to be a little more direct, try fixing acoustical problems with acoustical solutions. Don't look to other components to act as "tone controls", whether it's your CDP, your cables, amp, etc. Because then, if you move, or change your room setup, it will be all wrong once again....


This is someone with over 35 years experience in this area, including pro sound, being a high end dealer in the 70's, and designing pro audio equipment. We're not trying to be disagreeable with you, just help you to short circuit the learning process a bit, which otherwise can be quite long. :W

~Jon

[dtb300]

Or, to be a little more direct, try fixing acoustical problems with acoustical solutions. Don't look to other components to act as "tone controls", whether it's your CDP, your cables, amp, etc. Because then, if you move, or change your room setup, it will be all wrong once again....

Jon,

I am a firm believer, and large fan boy in the acoustic treatment camp. Some of the best changes I have heard in my system have been from treating my room and 1st reflection points. Unfortunately most people do not want to hear this, as buying stuff and blaming it is much easier :B Once you have walked in the waters of room treatments, you will be a believer.

Currently, I have GIK in all 4 corners from floor to ceiling, and three panels along the wall behind my seating position, and along the front wall floor/wall seam. I also use Auralex 2" wedge for first reflection points. I am looking to try some more treatments and see what kind of results I get using Room EQ Wizard (a great product).

Dan

[Russ L]

Currently, I have GIK in all 4 corners from floor to ceiling, and three panels along the wall behind my seating position, and along the front wall floor/wall seam. Dan

Those GIK panels have a core of mineral wool insulation. I believe they are covered in canvas from what I can tell. Is this true? I was looking to do a DIY version so I checked ROXUL's website. They make the mineral wool insulation(available at Home Depot etc.) and they recommend it to be covered by plastic or at least drywall when used for sound absorption in internal walls of a home. You need to wear protective gear including a breathing mask when installing. I would be wary using this in my listening room as you may be exposing your lungs to fine airborne particles over a long period of time. I don't know if just a canvas covering is sufficient protection? Check out the Roxul website under installing mineral wool under the product name "Safe n' Sound" or "Flexibatt". Does anyone else have experience with making acoustical panels from mineral wool? Regards, Russ

[dtb300]

I have never seen 4" mineral wool at my Home Depot or Lowe's in my area - and believe me I have looked many times. Just the thick pink fluffy normal type of insulation - but never any of the ridgid or rockwool.

The GIK panels, once in place are not disturbed to cause the possibility of the loss of fibers from the panels. I even vacuum mine after initial install.

Fiberglass and/or mineral wool that is put up in attics (panels or blown in) have the ability to lose fibers and have them spread throughout your home. Only when it is installed and sealed by drywall - and if sealed properly - does the theory of not letting any fibers loose. I guess for those with a concern can even now have that insulation that is sprayed in, and then expands to form a seal.

Much discussion about Mineral Wool and Ridgid Fiberglass when people are talking about acoustic treatments. Ethan Winer has discussed this at length in his forums, and so have Rives in their forum.

For people that are so concerned about the possibility of loose fibers, there is also Acoutical Cotton that can be used. Or then you can purchase for MONDO AMOUNTS of money the ASC products, which if I am not mistaken use the same type of "bad" materials in their products. I could be wrong here, so checking with ASC's site may give you the correct information.

[dtb300]

Im a little late getting back to the party so I'll just say this for the guys who recommended tubed CD players and the others who said there were other things going on in my system. I looked into tubed players and you may be on to something.

Her is a place with some tube players for you to look at our consider....

http://www.pacificvalve.us/cdplayers.html

Of course there are many other places and players to think about.