What's the biggest difference between really good amps and good amps ?

[Glenee]

Guys I was wondering what is the biggest difference you see in really good AMPS versus better than average amps. Such as McIntosh, Bryston, Classe,Krell Versus Parasound, Adcom, Yamaha and the likes. All about the same power. Whats the big difference that a person should listen for to tell him this amp is worth twice the cost.
Thanks,
Glenee

[Russ L]

Guys I was wondering what is the biggest difference you see in really good AMPS versus better than average amps.

This thread will probably be moved to the Audio Hideout but before it does.... I'd say the biggest and most important difference is the ability of really good amps to handle the current demands of speakers. Eg. when they drop below 4ohms. Just a better design, so less distortion over the frequency range. 2nd most important is the amplifiers sound. Is it warm, sweet, have clarity, not add anything to the source. Best regards, Russ

[Gremal]

Well, if all recordings sound warm and sweet, I would say it is adding something to the source. Because not all albums sound warm and sweet. Really, the amp should be a chameleon. If all recordings have the same timbre, tonal characteristics or soundstage, that's something your gear is doing. A good amp is open, providing all the microdetail you can mine from the source.

What separates good amps from average is design and voicing and attention to detail. For example, in VAC amps, each circuit is individually wired to the ground and hundreds of hours are spent voicing the product with all possible caps and other parts.

[Russ L]

Well, if all recordings sound warm and sweet, I would say it is adding something to the source. .

Thx for correcting me, thats what I meant to say"is it warm and sweet OR have clarity and neutrality. Regards, Russ

[scottielee]

great question. i think the answers are so subjective they are often difficult to be put in words or be measured. some characteristics that come to mind are: whether the amp has soul, speed/rthym, dynamics, transparency, real power reserve/effortlessness, noise level, whether you get goosebumps listening to it...

then there are non-sonic attributes such as physical design, quality of parts, brand, and pride of ownership.

[Glenee]

I hope they don't move this post, because of the trust and honesty of the opinions that I have followed here.
Thanks,
Glenee

[ChrisssB]

In my ears a good amp sounds as it is not there!
It can handle better micro dynamics so you get the full gamut of harmonics.
It must be also very detailed, and while you can clearly hear all instruments the dont seem isolated from each other but they "communicate" with each other & the musical event is more natural

[hifiguymi]

I echo the statements here. Better amps do a better job of controlling the speaker and getting you closer the music. High performance amps like McIntosh, Bryston, Classe, and Krell let you get closer to the performance and get out of the way. It all comes down to how well it makes the drivers start and stop when they are supposed to and travel as far as they should and no further.

Eric

[RNKC]

A great amp will also sound effortless. Good amps can sometimes strain to deliver full performance. It's not something you necessarily hear initially especially if you're using good speakers like B&W 8xx. But it is something you feel after a while. You get this annoying, nagging feeling that you're not getting all the sound that's on the source. WIth a great amp, you never get this feeling.

[Aldo]

I think another big diference is the time they run on class A!

[RNKC]

Oddly enough, another sign of a great amp is what silence sounds like. With a great amp you get an inky, black nothingness. Other amps will leave you wondering if you're hearing "surface noise" or if the music is so quiet you're just not hearing it. With a great amp, there's never any question about silence vs sound.

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I'll give this a day or 2 more here (unless there is more amp vs B&W content) and then we can try the Audio hidout for a broader range of views

Enjoy

Geoff

[ZX10 Guy]

I went more with the reputation to deliver the power I need without clipping or distortion. I also wanted an amp that was built rock solid. So in the end I bought a used Bryston 6B-ST. The transferrable 20 year warranty sold me on it along with the discrete seperate amp channels that only share a common input power rail. The QA philosophy of Bryston also scores points with me. Here's a link to post by someone who actually took a tour of Bryston's facility and witnessed first hand their burn in procedure.

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35553

[jayhawk75]

another way to look at this is with all the new equipment coming out due to the hdmi changes what mfg would a person be looking at to match up with B&W and the level of importance staying with the same mfg for prepro and amp. good and very good can fall into the ss vs. tube very quickly when it comes to the detail that the 800 series can provide as long as the source material is up to snuff.

[Joey_V]

The better the amp, the better the reproduction, period.

It improves on imaging, focus is better. It improves on palpability and density of the instruments reproduced. It improves on soundstaging by responding better to transients and lowering the noise floor... I've even witnessed amps pull the soundstage forward and push the drums back, especially when I went Class A on my Plinius (vs AB bias switched).

[gpo344]

Do Rotel amps fall into the very good to excellent category, or are they just good or below?

[Karma]

Let Your Ears Do The Walking

HI,
I keep saying this over and over. Use your ears. Believe in your ears. Pay attention to your ears. We can't help you with questions like this one.

Idea!! Go to a good dealer and do a demo with their most expensive amp and their least expensive amp, both in the same power range, and with same speakers and source equipment. Take your own recordings. And listen, carefully. Let your ears tell you the truth. You need to start educating yourself with real sound. Soon your will start hearing the differences. Try very hard to describe what you are hearing in words. Write it down. Make this a habit. It's very important.

You will learn and gain experience. You will grow. You will make mistakes. Your tastes will change. This is all part of the game and there are no shortcuts.

This said, usually, the difference between good and great is reflected in the price. You get what you pay for. But the game is far more complicated than this simple rule. Because within great there are many shades. It's up to you to decide which shade you like best. The whole process will take years or even a lifetime.

Sparky

[Russ L]

Do Rotel amps fall into the very good to excellent category, or are they just good or below?

Rotel are great sounding amps for the money. I was using a Rotel RSX 1057 for my 2 channel listening as well as Home theater. After upgrading my CD player from a $600 model to a mid/high end model at the $2000 range I noticed a huge difference in the sound quality of my "lowly" B&W 600 series speakers! :E I then demoed some dedicated 2 channel amps like the Moon W-3 (on sale from $4000 -> $3000) and the Creek Classic amp @ $2000 or Creek Destiny amp @ $3000. All CDN prices... There was no turning back. The improvement in signal to noise. The ability of those amps to handle the demands of the speakers in difficult passages. The highs and lows really improved over the RSX 1057. The timing, detail, imaging and soundstage were awesome. Just shows how important really good amps are over average amps. I'm didn't know B&W 602s could sound that good. Regards, Russ

[Andrew M Ward]

Oddly enough, another sign of a great amp is what silence sounds like. With a great amp you get an inky, black nothingness. Other amps will leave you wondering if you're hearing "surface noise" or if the music is so quiet you're just not hearing it. With a great amp, there's never any question about silence vs sound.

Gold Star..!

[Joey_V]

Do Rotel amps fall into the very good to excellent category, or are they just good or below?

The 1090 falls into very good category.

[yannparis]

Previsously, I had a 1095. It has been replaced by 2*Classe 5100 ( SSP-600/802D Marantz 8400)

The 1095 is a good amplifier but not transparent. Its so-called dynamic sound is sometimes agressive. Its electronic noise covers details. It is also obvious when you listen to large orchestrata: The scene is fuzzy. The new B&O powered amplifiers have better bass and worse treble. Rotel's are good amplifiers at their price.

Classe's amplifiers project a more 'visual' scene with details and without any agressivity. I listen to the music louder with them.

To have a 'better' sound (same qualities/specificities still more exacerbated) you have to pay much more: Halcro dm for example.

Regards

Yann

[Aussie Geoff]

I'll leave this a little bit longer as it seems to be active with a good range of contributions...

Then we'll try the Audio-hideout

Enjoy

Geoff

[dknightd]

Lets get more specific. I use an Adcom 5500 with my B&W 703. It sounds perhaps a little constrained at or near full volume (but before the clipping lights come on, and based on the specs those are pretty conservative). But I'm not sure if that is the amp, or the speakers, or my room. I bought my Adcom for $430 used. I'm willing to pay up to $2000 for an amp if will make a noticeable difference. Is $2000 enough to bother with?
I'm thinking probably not. I think I'd be better off waiting till I can afford more.

I've tried my speakers with only a few amps - Harmon Kardon AR-25 something, Yamaha 777, Adcom 535, Adcom 5500. The Adcom 535 was perhaps best at low to mid volumes, the 5500 in virtually identical at low volumes, perhaps not as sweet, but has more headroom which I sometimes need.
They were demoed to me with $20K amps. I'm sure those amps were better, but the 703 sound better now at home with my "cheap" amp. Probably because my room is now tuned to make the 703 work as well as they can.

I will not pay more for my amp than I did for my speakers. At least not yet. I know I can get better speakers, if I had more money. For now I'm just accumulating money for my next upgrade. I can't see $2000 getting me the upgrade I want - since I like what I have I'm thinking it is better to wait till I can at least double what I have spent so far.
listen to other amps, but it would have to be in my home I think, or at least the same speakers.

[dmccombs]

Some really good amps seem to have "Mono" in the title, and can cause hernia when being moved. :rofl:

Ok, well the monos have bigger boxes for heat disipation, large transformers, and are isolated from other channels which should reduce noise.

Regards,
Darrell

[DM3000 Owner]

I am interested in the difference between the high end amps on B&W 800 series speakers. I am currently running Bryston 7B ST monoblocks with N801's and they sound outstanding. However, bass response is a little light in a lot of recordings. Diana Krall recordings have great bass. Others seem to be light. It should be noted that my room is about 19' x 50'. In teh next year or so I will be moving my equipment to a dedicated music room that is large, but smaller than the current room (about 18' x 25').

I am toying with the idea of Levinson 33H's. However, my system does not seem to be lacking and I am afraid that it is just "upgrade-itus."

I re-read the 1998 stereophile review of the Levinson 33H's and the reviewer said the 33H's and the Krell 600's were esentially a tossup. The Krell's are about 1/2 or less than the cost of the Levinsons.

So my question is what are the differences between the high end amps on the 800-802's?

[ZX10 Guy]

I am interested in the difference between the high end amps on B&W 800 series speakers. I am currently running Bryston 7B ST monoblocks with N801's and they sound outstanding. However, bass response is a little light in a lot of recordings. Diana Krall recordings have great bass. Others seem to be light. It should be noted that my room is about 19' x 50'. In teh next year or so I will be moving my equipment to a dedicated music room that is large, but smaller than the current room (about 18' x 25').

I am toying with the idea of Levinson 33H's. However, my system does not seem to be lacking and I am afraid that it is just "upgrade-itus."

I re-read the 1998 stereophile review of the Levinson 33H's and the reviewer said the 33H's and the Krell 600's were esentially a tossup. The Krell's are about 1/2 or less than the cost of the Levinsons.

So my question is what are the differences between the high end amps on the 800-802's?

I'm going to say upgrade-itis. You didn't indicate your ceiling height. But even at the median ceiling height of 8', having a room 19'x50' is a lot to expect a set of N800s to fill. I don't care if you use amps capable of feeding straight DC from its output terminals or can pump out 1000W RMS. The physics involved here requires large amounts of air movement to get substantive low end bass slam. If you want more weight and slam in your bass, you're going to have to look into subs. And I put the plural in subs as you'll probably need dual subs to get the proper reinforcement for a room that size.

[DM3000 Owner]

I'm going to say upgrade-itis. You didn't indicate your ceiling height. But even at the median ceiling height of 8', having a room 19'x50' is a lot to expect a set of N800s to fill. I don't care if you use amps capable of feeding straight DC from its output terminals or can pump out 1000W RMS. The physics involved here requires large amounts of air movement to get substantive low end bass slam. If you want more weight and slam in your bass, you're going to have to look into subs. And I put the plural in subs as you'll probably need dual subs to get the proper reinforcement for a room that size.

Thanks for the info. Actually, the 7B's put out 800 or 900 watts at 4 ohms. I will wait until I have the equipment in a different room before I upgrade.

I am using an old Klipsch powered 15" sub. It adds a nice mellow bass that blends in nicely. I adjusted it using pink noise and an RTA.

[Aussie Geoff]

Ok

Now we are into B&W and amps we are more on the forum topic - buys some time here before I move it...


Geoff

[ZX10 Guy]

Thanks for the info. Actually, the 7B's put out 800 or 900 watts at 4 ohms. I will wait until I have the equipment in a different room before I upgrade.

I am using an old Klipsch powered 15" sub. It adds a nice mellow bass that blends in nicely. I adjusted it using pink noise and an RTA.

I have a set of N804 speakers with an HTM 1. I have a Velodyne HGS15 and a DD18 for my system. Even eq'd flat per the SMS eq, I find myself running a slight bump at the lower end (what many would call a house curve) to get the bass slam to my tastes. Sometimes having a flat bass response isn't what is appropriate for what your musical tastes are. The fact that I can change EQ curves on the fly with my setup makes changing bass curves a no brainer.

[DM3000 Owner]

I have a set of N804 speakers with an HTM 1. I have a Velodyne HGS15 and a DD18 for my system. Even eq'd flat per the SMS eq, I find myself running a slight bump at the lower end (what many would call a house curve) to get the bass slam to my tastes. Sometimes having a flat bass response isn't what is appropriate for what your musical tastes are. The fact that I can change EQ curves on the fly with my setup makes changing bass curves a no brainer.

I need to not let the upgrade bug bite me. I was at a B&W dealer in Salt Lake last week and the salesperson put it into perspective. He basically said that the N801's and Brystons are outstanding and to not change them. I think I need to move to my dedicated room and add a high quality sub. I am not looking for bass slam as much as a nice warm tone.

[WI Rotel]

Guys I was wondering what is the biggest difference you see in really good AMPS versus better than average amps. Such as McIntosh, Bryston, Classe,Krell Versus Parasound, Adcom, Yamaha and the likes. All about the same power. Whats the big difference that a person should listen for to tell him this amp is worth twice the cost.
Thanks,
Glenee

An amplifier's job is to amplify, period. Anyone that can handle high current demands without adding extraneous distortion throughout the entire sound spectrum should be excellent. Dryness, laidbackness, sweetness and other nonsense descriptors are just that, if anything they are ways of describing a lack of power or the addition of distortion in some particular set of circumtances. If the amplifiers are equal in the standards set above, the difference is only in price. Unfortunately, the only place to find true amplifier specifications is mostly on independent reports since most manufacturers gloss over real specifications. This idiotifying of specs is most common on mass market hardware ,Yamaha, pioneer etc, etc.

By a very long shot the most critical part of a sound system is the speakers, the amplifier should simply be able to drive your particular selection without strain (clipping) at any sound level you desire, if the amp can do it comfortably you are more than good to go.

[Joey_V]

An amplifier's job is to amplify, period. Anyone that can handle high current demands without adding extraneous distortion throughout the entire sound spectrum should be excellent. Dryness, laidbackness, sweetness and other nonsense descriptors are just that, if anything they are ways of describing a lack of power or the addition of distortion in some particular set of circumtances. If the amplifiers are equal in the standards set above, the difference is only in price. Unfortunately, the only place to find true amplifier specifications is mostly on independent reports since most manufacturers gloss over real specifications. This idiotifying of specs is most common on mass market hardware ,Yamaha, pioneer etc, etc.

By a very long shot the most critical part of a sound system is the speakers, the amplifier should simply be able to drive your particular selection without strain (clipping) at any sound level you desire, if the amp can do it comfortably you are more than good to go.

Are you saying all amps should sound the same provided they aren't clipping then?

[Clepto]

Are you saying all amps should sound the same provided they aren't clipping then?

They _SHOULD_ because they shouldn't alter the sound of the recording (that's more for the speakers to do). Ideally, everything should be flat. Obviouslly, depending on what types of speakers you're using, you may want a higher rated amp for some applications, but really, the goal for an amp should be to remain invisible.

[Joey_V]

They _SHOULD_ because they shouldn't alter the sound of the recording (that's more for the speakers to do). Ideally, everything should be flat. Obviouslly, depending on what types of speakers you're using, you may want a higher rated amp for some applications, but really, the goal for an amp should be to remain invisible.

And tell me why when I switch to Class A on the Plinius, why does the sound tighten and focus better?

[Aussie Geoff]

Please avoid any intense "All Amplifiers Sound the Same" discussion

Hi,

Everyone please be very careful here. We have had a number of threads over the years that have strayed into the "All amplifiers sound the same" vs "No they don't" and without exception once this discussion gets active it has become bitter and intense with a few people being unable to let go and taking over the thread, resulting heated debates and the thread needing to be locked. Some people get very intense over this. So please please please don't do this here or I will have to lock the thread preemptively to avoid this.


The topic of the thread is "What's the biggest difference between really good amps and good amps" If you don't believe there are any differences between amps then fine - state that once if you must - but do not repeat or argue the point in multiple posts. Posts should focus in differences between good and very good amps by people who beleive there are differences!

Enjoy the main topic

Geoff

[Jeff]

Clepto, I can understand why you feel that way. However, my experience has convinced my otherwise. When I moved up from Rotel to a Proceed amp, the mid range and treble were sooooooo smooth through my N802's. The purchase was a no brainer. The Rotel was grainy in compairson.

When I looked further into the mechanics of the amps,, hi vs low quality, I had a better understanding on why there was a difference.

To get back on track, It's my personal feeling Rotel is only a mid grade amp.
Proceed is one step above it. In addition, I feel the beginning of true high end amps begin with those of Proceed quality and then proceed upwards.

Jeff

[WI Rotel]

Are you saying all amps should sound the same provided they aren't clipping then?

No.
Clipping is the ultimate form of distortion but by no measure the only one. Clipping however kills tweeters in short order. Simply the amp cannot amplify the entire sound wave and chops the top of the wave off. "Lesser" amplifiers may show significant distortion in some part of the spectrum before that level. That is why its important to know the complete specs. However clipping at sound levels you use frequently is an obvious sign that the amp cannot cut the mustard with your speakers.

[WI Rotel]

No.
Clipping is the ultimate form of distortion but by no measure the only one. Clipping however kills tweeters in short order. Simply the amp cannot amplify the entire sound wave and chops the top of the wave off. "Lesser" amplifiers may show significant distortion in some part of the spectrum before that level. That is why its important to know the complete specs. However clipping at sound levels you use frequently is an obvious sign that the amp cannot cut the mustard with your speakers.

One point to take home is buy as much power as you can do not use the speakers recommended power as a guide, also dynamic power specs are also bunk if they do not specify frequency and amximum distortion at that level. Yes, there are amplifers that sound better than the upper Rotels, however, not for the buck or at the same power level ie a 100watt per channel bryston cannot drive speakers as well as a 200watt rotel (simply doesn't have the juice) but will cost similarly if not more. The same is true in reverse a 1095 cannot sound as effortless as 300watt omega but its close and costs 1/5 the price.

[Joey_V]

One point to take home is buy as much power as you can do not use the speakers recommended power as a guide, also dynamic power specs are also bunk if they do not specify frequency and amximum distortion at that level. Yes, there are amplifers that sound better than the upper Rotels, however, not for the buck or at the same power level ie a 100watt per channel bryston cannot drive speakers as well as a 200watt rotel (simply doesn't have the juice) but will cost similarly if not more. The same is true in reverse a 1095 cannot sound as effortless as 300watt omega but its close and costs 1/5 the price.

That still does not answer the question of as to why the sound changes when you've got Class A running through the speaker vs Class A/B on the same amp. Regardless of volume output (meaning regardless of overdriving the amp).

[DL86]

Clipping is usually recorded onto many late cd's. Most of the time the amplifier never reaches its limits but the amount of clipping I find on most modern CD's is insane. I don't think amplifier distortion is a big issue. The speakers usually produce the most harmonic distortion out of any component.

[Russ L]

That still does not answer the question of as to why the sound changes when you've got Class A running through the speaker vs Class A/B on the same amp. Regardless of volume output (meaning regardless of overdriving the amp).

Hope this helps...from the Cambridge Audio website regarding the design of their 840A amp.

"There has always been a desire for a compromise between the efficiency of Class B and the linearity of Class A and the most obvious way to make one is to turn up the quiescent current of a Class B stage giving what is called Class AB operation. As this is done, an area of Class A operation, with both output transistors conducting, is created around the zero-crossing.
In fact as this area widens as the quiescent current increases, until ultimately it encompasses the entire voltage output range of the amplifier, there is thus an infinite range of positions between the two extremes of Class B and Class A, and this range of modes of operation is referred to as Class AB.
Unfortunately, while Class AB would seem to be a perfect compromise between Class A and Class B operation, it does have some hidden issues.
It can be shown [Ref 1] that if Class AB is used to trade-off between efficiency and linearity, its performance is certainly superior to B below the AB transition level, operating as it does in this region in pure Class A. This can have very low THD indeed, at less than 0.0006% up to 10 kHz [Ref
3].
However, once the signal exceeds the limits of the Class A region, the THD worsens and does so somewhat abruptly due to the gain-changes when the output transistors turn on and off. Linearity is in fact inferior not only to Class A but also to optimally-biased Class B. This is not always fully
appreciated. The effect is sometimes called "gm-doubling".
Class AB distortion can be made very low by good design, but remains at least twice as high as for the equivalent Class B situation."

Best regards, Russ

[WI Rotel]

Clipping is usually recorded onto many late cd's. Most of the time the amplifier never reaches its limits but the amount of clipping I find on most modern CD's is insane. I don't think amplifier distortion is a big issue. The speakers usually produce the most harmonic distortion out of any component.

Its not that they are clipped its that they are so compressed that they sound dull. IMO digital is inherently superior to analog, however it will provide whatever you put into it, if the original recording is crap, the CD you buy will be the same. The most challenging part of music reproduction is the recording, one example of a fabulous recording label was Archive by deustche gramaphon they specialized mostly in baroque classics, their recording were so cristal clear you could probably discern the drops of sweat plopping on the instruments, truely digital at its best. It must be noted, however, that the recordings were solos and small ensambles making their job a little less difficult. Orchestral recordings are a different ball game and vary significantly depending on the venue where they are recorded, tus even though you utilize the best equipment and engineers, the placement of the mikes and the mixing become very crucial. Most, but not all, popular music are mediocre at best and are thus over "fixed" leading to poor overall results. Jazz and classical vary from fantastic to piss poor. One pleasant surprise for me was when I purchashed Ella's entire collection on i Tunes, I expected dull MP3 sound. Quite the contrary I was astonished at the quality of most of the selections, no doubt a tribute to the excellence of many of the original analog Verve master recordings.
To remove all of these variables, I use digital electronic music CD's when comparing systems. My favorite are Telarc's Don Dorsey's Bachbusters and Bethoven or Bust. These are recordings with completely silent backgrouds, astounding dynamics and that encompass the entire audio range from the lowest to the highest registers, plus the execution of the pieces is, mathematically, of virtuoso level. These works serve as an excellent analytical canvass to objectively evaluate the electronics. They easily test the limits of power, dynamic range and distortion levels of any system.

[Alaric]

IMO digital is inherently superior to analog,

IMO , the reverse is true.

[Greg Gale]

I have compared Ayre, Classe an Bryston with my N802...

A good amplifier makes a tremendous difference in sound quality. I recently evaluated the Ayre V1xe (200 watts) against a Bryston 4BSST (300 watts), Bryston 14BSST (600 watts) and the new Classe CA2200 (200 watts).

I thought that by having more power to make my N802's sing especially with the Bryston 14BSST that this would make a big difference in sound quality.

The bottom line is I learned very quickly that just having a lot of watts does not necessarily translate into good sound quality. I very quickly dismissed the Bryston in favor of the Classe and in comparison to the Ayre it was a closer match but in the end the Classe had a smoother sound throughout the midrange along with a more dynamic low end that I prefer especially when playing rock. On the high frequencies it was close but price independent my wife and I thought the Classe amplifier was best against the lot.

A lot of the synergy has to do with your source and pre-amp of which I am using an Ayre K5xe which sounded superior to the Classe CP500 I also evaluated.

Without question you should find a dealer that lets you evaluate the amplifier in your own system.

[RebelMan]

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