Turntable recommendation

[SteveT]

As a possible upgrade consideration, I was thinking of also upgrading my turntable. I'd like to get one that will perform to my needs. My thing is that I like to play my music at loud levels with decent base response, and my turntable now receives feedback and starts to hum. This even happens if I move my right speaker away from the turntable also. Now it is like a foot or so away. Even when I move it 5 feet away, it still starts to hum, even on quiet passages and between song tracks. I don't know why it would even hum when there is no music playing like between songs. Any thoughts as to why this might happen during quiet sections? I have a used Pioneer PL-530 now.
Is there a turntable for under $1000 or even at $600 or less with cartridge included that provides good isolation? I was looking at the Sumiko Project series turntables. Even the ClearAudio Emotion table looks nice.

Any suggestions?

[benny]

Here ya go!

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=20585

This should help. I'm not familiar w/ your Pioneer but it's probably a direct-drive where the motor vibrations travel through the spindle and onto your cartridge. There are certain dampening products as well that are designed to set under your table to help cancel vibrations (such as the bass vibrations). Good luck!

[SteveT]

Hey Thanks Benny!!! Lots of good reading there!

[benny]

You're quite welcome. Be sure to check out that Vinyl Anarchist link, too. Some cool stuff...

[al-k]

I use a Project 6.9 and have no feedback problems (and very good sound!).
This model has a floating suspension , but check that it is still available in the country you live , as in some countries the only floating suspension Project model sold is the more expensive Perspective which has transparent Acrylic for the parts that are black coloured on the 6.9 .
The floating suspension reduces likelihood of feedback problems and provides isolation from other types of vibration .
Whatever cartridge is in your Pioneer could be partially microphonic - contributing to the feedback . Depending on where you live , the cartridge sold with Project turntables will be one of these brands : Goldring(the UK Company) ; Grado ; Ortofon . All these Companies manufacture good cartridges that are not interferingly microphonic .

[SteveT]

Hi Al-k

Thanks for that info. Just out of curiosity, what is a microphonic cartridge, and how does one know which ones are and which ones are not? I hope that is not a dumb question....LOL

[al-k]

A microphonic cartridge is one which picks up and passes on to the amplifier significant amounts of sound or vibration that impinges on its body somewhere , as distinct from the vibration of its stylus' tip by the record .
All cartrides will be microphonic to some degree , even if very small amount .

Test yours for microphony like this - set the volume control on your amp to the level you normally listen at , and try an LP track briefly to remind your ears . Lift off the arm and put it back on its arm rest , and if it has a safety clip put that on the arm . Next , very carefully with a hard object of similar mass to the arm tube , such as a plastic pen , tap on the side of the cartridge gently . (Don't use a metal object to tap with - its too easy to tap too hard and damage something , and if the metal is steel it will be attracted to the magnets inside the cartridge thus will move fast and hard onto the cartridge body and produce a loud noise!) .
Try tapping on various parts of the cartridge body , or even gently on top of the headshell above the cartridge , but do not tap on the cantilever or the stylus !
You will hear some sound from the tapping through your speakers , but it should be quieter than the music you played . If it seems too loud , then you have an excessively microphonic cartridge , or perhaps some excess resonance in the tone-arm . If the tapping sound includes a lot of the same frequency area of tone as the hum that you reported , then the cartridge or the tone-arm may be the primary source of the problem .

Something I remembered since my first post , if this hum is all low bass tone , then there may be a strong low frequency resonance in your listening room that coincides with a resonance in your turntable , or , in whatever support your turntable is standing on , as such resonance would be activated by Bass in the music sufficiently to continue to feed back even after the music has stopped , and , low Bass frequency resonances in rooms and in some large objects that are have been used to stand turntables on are independant of distance from speakers .
Its midrange and treble feedback that can be caused by proximity to speakers .
Try standing your turntable on something else and listen for the hum - quieter , or same as before ?

Post your findings if you like . I might remember something more !

[Kevin D]

Moving to the main audio section as not Rotel specific.

Thanks,

Kevin D.

[dave]

To ring in on this subject,
There is a possibility that your turntable is placed too high in your
listening room. The result of this can cause feedback. Also, the type of
material used to place your table on can cause vibration problems. A wood
surface constructed out of 2 pieces of 3/4 inch MDF laminated together
can offer favorable results at a moderate price. Also try cymbal pads
underneath the feet of of your turntable as this will reduce vibrations.

Good Luck, Dave.

[twitch54]

steve, lots of good suggestions so far, also take a look at your cabling, depending on its sheilding it could be a culprit, be sure if it is near any house Ac lines that they meet perpindicular to each other.

as far as tables under a grand or around $600 , it's a no brainer............ Rega P-3.

[SteveT]

Hey thanks for those suggestions. I'll try the simpler ones first to see what type sound I get from the tap test.

[Armand]

Sterophiles latest edition has their recommended components listing. Like twitch54 says Rega makes good stuff. I used to have one of their arms on a SOTA table and it was a nice combo. A used AR might be a great way to save some bucks. I had one before the SOTA and never had any FB problems. That was a classic budget table.

[2bluechris]

Moving to the main audio section as not Rotel specific.

Thanks,

Kevin D.

Then let's add some Rotel ! , they did have a couple of good at the price turntables back in the period of the 800 series components , the RP-830 and RP-850 . One of those , particually the 850 , if in good condition and at a reasonable price , would be worth buying .

There was one later model , which IF I remember correctly was in the 900 series , as RP-955 , was it ? , I have not seen one other than a picture in a magazine .

[2bluechris]

steve, lots of good suggestions so far, also take a look at your cabling, depending on its sheilding it could be a culprit, be sure if it is near any house Ac lines that they meet perpindicular to each other.

Yes , have you checked that this hum is a feedback and not an electrical problem such as twitch is decribing ?
Move the Interconnect at the back of your turntable away from all mains power leads .
Also , it is possible there may be a partial earth connection loose - check that the small wires from the back of the cartridge - under the headshell - are secure on the pins of the cartridge .
Unplug the interconnect then plug it back in - it may have become loose fit .

All the above can cause hum-noise sounds that continue when no music is playing .

[SteveT]

feed back hum

Hi guys,

I did the tap test and the tapping doesn't seem too loud through the speakers, definitely not as loud as the music. This hum only happens when I turn up the music to louder listening levels and disappears when the music is at a "more reasonable level". Also no hum when the needle is off the record. So I don't think it is caused by any interference from electrical lines. I think it may be due to poor isolation properties of the plinth. Also my turntable is placed a little higher than normal by about 5 inches as it sits atop my tuner with a thin piece of wood between the two components. I have read that getting a decent turntable of anywhere from $600 to $1500 will solve the problem. I have been considering the Project Xperience with the acrylic plinth or the more expensive Music Hall mmf-9.

[twitch54]

Hi Steve, Good isolation for your analog front end is essential. BTW, i just sent you a PM, if interested my Music Hall mmf-9 is For sale.

[SteveT]

Hi Dave,

I was just curious, why are you selling your MusicHall? Also, what kind of cartridge do you have on it?? Is it a MM or MC cartridge?
And lastly, how much are you asking for it? I am still hesitating yet as my Pioneer sounds good, just has that annoying feedback as I like to listen to my music at loud levels.

Thanks,

-- Steve

[SteveT]

OOps....one more question...LOL.....Can the speed be changed by a touch of a switch??

[SteveT]

down to 2 models

Well, I think I've almost decided at least between 2 turntables. Either the Music Hall mmf-9 or the Project Xperience. I have a Rotel RC1070 which I guess only accepts MM cartridges, and was thinking of possibly ordering a TT through Musicdirect. I wonder if they can upgrade the cartridge that comes on the Project with a better MM cartridge? Same with the Music Hall which comes with a MC cartridge I wonder if they could switch that with a MM cartridge? I like the clear look of the Xperience bu tthe MusicHall looks classy also. Has anyone used either of these two TT's or have any suggestions or comments??

[twitch54]

hey Steve, haven;t you read any of the PM's I sent you ????? anyway if your going the route of a decent TT don't go back to a lesser mm cartridge, save your $$ for a good inexspensive phono-pre (Musical Fidelity for example) that can handle a HO MC cartridge. Their are plenty of good HO MC's on the market today. Micro Benz "Ace" for example.

Anyway if your interested in a mmf-9, check mine out on the "Gon".

[SteveT]

Hi Twitch,

I don't want to sound dumb, but what do you mean those PM's you sent me? What are PM's? Just never heard the abbreviation? I only received one e-mail if that is what you meant? I am just concerned about the extra space of where to put another component on my stereo rack. But won't a good $300 MM cartridge be as good as a MC one? Also another question I had was regarding a turntable mat. I notice that the MM9 has a hard acrylic platter which I would think would scratch a vinyl record if put directly on top without something softer under the record?? Am I wrong here? The Xperience TT review states their platter is covered with a substance made from recycled vinyl from records, and again wouldn't that be hard too? Do I need to buy a TT plater mat? Please let me know what you sent via PM's??

[twitch54]

Steve, PM stands for "private message", check upper right corner on the screen, that's where you'll see if you have any awaiting to be read.

As far as MM cartridges , I didn't mean to imply that they wern't any good rather that MC have gotten so much better as of late and especially the high output ones have really improved over what was available a few years back.

as far as a TT mat, yes one comes with the mmf-9. As a general rule the design of the platter determines wether a mat is preffered or not, when one is designed as an example VPI Aries 3 with a record clamp then no you do not need a mat for the clamp,record and platter become one.

[SteveT]

A question about cartridges,...I have a Rotel RC1070 preamp, and I have read that today's high output MC cartridges can be used on amps that only have a MM phono prestage on the preamp. Is this true? Is there a disadvantage to doing this if this is possible?

[whoaru99]

A question about cartridges,...I have a Rotel RC1070 preamp, and I have read that today's high output MC cartridges can be used on amps that only have a MM phono prestage on the preamp. Is this true? Is there a disadvantage to doing this if this is possible?

A good phono pre, or a pre amp with a deluxe phono stage, will allow you to "tune" the match between the cartridge and the pre for best results, but yes, it is true that some can.

For an example, my old Yamaha C-80 pre-amp has five different externally selectable settings (various combinations of resistance and capacitance) that can be chosen for the phono input to provide a more optimum match to the cartridge. A standalone phono pre probably has even more adjustment than this, I'd assume.

[twitch54]

A question about cartridges,...I have a Rotel RC1070 preamp, and I have read that today's high output MC cartridges can be used on amps that only have a MM phono prestage on the preamp. Is this true? Is there a disadvantage to doing this if this is possible?

The phono-pre has a couple of basic specs that determine it ability, gain, Input Impedance, and Input Capacitence. The last two are where most adj are made for tailoring ones specific cartridge. If your HO MC has an output of 2 millivolts or more (most HO MC's do) and your phono pre has a gain of 50db or more you'll be fine.

standard input impedence is 47k, this is where matching the loading of your cartridge comes into play, keep in mind that when reducing this number significantly (adding resistors) you tend to have a negative impact on your S/N ratio.

[SteveT]

Well I'm not up on what all the electronic specs mean, but here are the specs for my pre amp. Do you think this would perform with a high output MC cartridge?



Input Sensitivity/Impedance
Line level inputs
Phono (MM)
-
150 mV / 24 k ohms
1.2mV/68 k ohms
Output Level/Impedance 1V/100 Ohms
Usable Headphone Impedance 8 - 2,000 Ohms
Frequency Response
Line level input
Phono input
-
4Hz-100kHz, +0, -3 dB
20-20kHz (+/-0.5dB)

Signal to Noise Ratio (IHF A)
Phono (MM)
Line level inputs
-
70 dB
95 dB
Phono Overload: 70mV

[SteveT]

Well the cut and paste option didn't line up the specs accurately.....ahhhh well the numbers seem to be there....let me know if you can make out what it all means....

[twitch54]

[QUOTE=SteveT]Well I'm not up on what all the electronic specs mean, but here are the specs for my pre amp. Do you think this would perform with a high output MC cartridge?



Input Sensitivity/Impedance
Phono (MM)
-
1.2mV/68 k ohms
Signal to Noise Ratio (IHF A)
Phono (MM)
-
70 dB



Steve, you should be fine, it loads fairly high at 68k(alot of MC cartridges like to be loaded around 1000 ohms) but this high impedence helps to improve upon it's S/N ratio.

what HO MC are you considering ????

[peterS]

Phono (MM)

[SteveT]

Probably the Goldring Eroica, MusicHall Maestro, Sumiko Blue Point Special No.2 or the Ortofon OM 40. Depends on how much I'd like to spend and depending on if I can use it with the preamp I have or if I decide to buy a phono amp....Hmmmmmm

[SteveT]

I think I found a definite answer....I went to view the instruction manuals on line for the Pro-ject Phono Box and they recommend to leave the setting on MM if the H O MC cartridge has an output of 1.5 mv or more. Most of the ones I was looking at have at least an output of 2.5 mv. So I believe as long as my cartridge has at least a 1.5 or higher then the Rotel RC1070 should perform fine with it.

Thanks for the input!! :-)

[twitch54]

Steve....... I gave you that answer days ago !! good Luck, Merry Christmas !!

[SteveT]

Hey Twitch, I think I meant to say that I confirmed your answer. People have been giving me mixed answers, so I wanted to confirm your answer. One other question now that I think of it.....if anyone knows,....would a MM cartridge with an output voltage of 4mv or more sound louder than a 2.5 mv MC cartridge without any phono box?? I guess I could always get the phono box later on if what ever MC cartridge, should I get one of those, doesn't sound loud enough.

Merry Christmas to everyone!! :T

[dknightd]

A new turntable with better isolation might help. But there are things you might try.
First, 1 foot is WAY to close to your speakers. You need to move it further away.
Second you need to determin if the feedback is mostly through the structure holding up the turntable, or directly through the air (likely to the tonearm).

You might try mounting the turntable to a sturdy shelf attached to the wall.
It is possible that the feedback is coming through the floor and up your stand - moving it to the wall eliminates this.
Does your turntable have a dust cover? Sometimes leaving it open or closed will effect feedback from your speakers.
You could try isolating feet, or, simply putting the turntable on a couple inches of foam rubber.

A high output MC cartridge will work fine with a MM phono input. It will play
quieter than a MM cartridge, but that can be compensated for by using the volume knob ;-) I use a sumiko blue point on a H-K T-60 table, and am happy with it.

[dknightd]

I've got to retract everything I said. Well at least some of it. I recently bought new speakers. I just tried cranking up an LP with my new speakers. I'm getting feedback. I thought I had got rid of that! Damn! I suspect my new speakers are exciting a room resonance my old ones were not. When I got new speakers I found I had to add room treatments to get them to sound good. Now it seems I also have to deal with feedback to my turntable! SFD! I'm not sure where to go next. . . Guess I have to start over, in the mean time I'll just have to listen to digital music when I want to turn it up. Double Damn. I listen to my turntable mostly when I've been drinking, and I'm not going to mess with it then. Maybe I should go back to my old speakers. . . But in many ways the new ones are better. ARGG.

btw I'm near Albany. PM me if you want to get together and share notes and music.

[twitch54]

would a MM cartridge with an output voltage of 4mv or more sound louder than a 2.5 mv MC cartridge without any phono box?? I guess I could always get the phono box later on if what ever MC cartridge, should I get one of those, doesn't sound loud enough.

Merry Christmas to everyone!! :T

Steve, answer to first question..... all things being equal, YES, albeit marginal

answer to second question..... as long as you go with a High Output MC, your Rotel Phono stage has enough gain, so you will be fine.

[SteveT]

OK...Cool!! Now I just have to make the decision as to which TT to get from the two I decided to go with now. The one thing I worry about with the Music Hall mmf 9 is that a motor that is totally a separate entity from the TT body is that wouldn't the tension of the band eventually pull the motor towards the TT plinth? I guess I wonder about it getting moved slightly here or there if it gets bumped into or something. Or just making sure you have it placed in the exact spot it should be??? Hmmmmmm

[twitch54]

Steve, The isolated motor assembly is the BEST way to go, reason is that isolation further lowers the noise floor. Having owned the mmf-9 for little over a year I can assure you it is a very good table / arm combination. The motor assembly is firmly weighted so you don't need to worry about it "moving". I can also recomend the Benz Micro "Ace" (high output) cartridge, it mates very well with the carbon fiber arm and would work nicely with your phono section. One big plus in favor of Benz Micro is their ease in mounting, the cartridge body is threaded thus making attaching to head shell very easy as well as the alignment adj. that follow.

[SteveT]

Hi Twitch,

Thanks for the recommendation. I was thinking of ordering from Music Direct and if I decided on a different cartridge like the Benz Ace, I'd have to have them mount it as I don't know if I would do as good of a job. Also when ordering from Music Direct, the cartridge that comes premounted is the Music Hall Maestro. Would that work also just as nicely...(does that have the same output voltage as the ACE??

[twitch54]

Check out www.elusivedisc.com , they are having a Christmas sale which ends wed 12/27, everything additional 10% off !!

If you call them talk to Jason, good guy.

[SteveT]

Interesting discovery

Well, I made an interesting discovery. I did a test of my current Pioneer direct drive PL530 turntable and to test the feedback problem, I unplugged the turntable from the powerstrip and put the needle on the record while it was not spinning. The record was totally still and slowly turned up the volume. I still get that loud hum/feedback through the speakers with no sound coming out!!! The platter is metal, probably aluminum with a rubber mat. To see if it was a reaction between the cartridge and metal platter, i raised the record off the platter by placing the record on cd jewel cases. I still got the lound hum as I turned up the volume. Now does anyone know why this would happen....how does feedback happen with no sound or physical vibration coming from the speakers????

[Armand]

Hi Steve. You actually found the most effective test of isolation as this method goes way back. There is sound eminating from speakers even with no music signal this is what is being aplified by the table/arm/cartridge system. I found this quote from John Atkinson:

A qualitative way of testing for tonearm/cartridge/turntable
resonant behavior is to play the stylus on a stationary record and
envelop the player in the soundfield from a nearby loudspeaker.
The output of the cartridge reveals significant mechanical resonances,
depending on the design of the individual components. The BBC
actually broadcast the output of a stationary turntable excited in
this manner to show how severe this problem could be.

If the table or speakers where in a different room, you'd probably not experience the problem

I hope this helps.

[SteveT]

Hi Armand,

I am confused by something. What sound is coming from the speakers with no record playing? I don't think I hear anything? What would the sound be coming from? Now I don't hear any hum with volume turned up with the needle off the record. Strange huh?? LOL

So now would buying either one of the TT's I have been thinking of, the Pro-ject Xperience or the Music Hall mmf-9 solve this problem???

[dknightd]

It often doesn't take much to get the feedback going. Watch out when it gets started, likely your woofers are going nuts when it happens.
I've started looking into my problem (it is not something I can do easily when the wife and kids are in the house, they don't like the vibration in creates). I found my problem seems to be that the shelf the turntable is sitting on is vibrating. If I grab the shelf it stops the feedback. I think if I increase the weight of the shelf maybe that will help.

It is funny that I didn't have this problem with my old speakers. My guess is that the difference is the woofers are a different height from the floor and I'm exciting a vertical room mode that I was not exciting before. But who knows.

I don't know if the turntables you are considering will help you or not.

[SteveT]

Hey, thanks.. Well, TT's are finicky components!! It's almost a sure thing that if you want to play records at high volumes, you have to have the TT in a separate room from the speakers....Unfortunately that is unrealistic and not very practical...LOL.