Denon DVD & Receiver decision

[aud19]

I'd guess different output from the two players....?

[David Meek]

What would cause colour variations between two player/processor setups when playing the same DVD on the same TV?

A couple of thoughts...

Are you using the same input on the TV to test both systems? A number of TVs have the capability of storing different settings on different inputs, so if you are using different inputs you need to verify that they are set to the same values.

Are you using the exact same cable(s) for both, too?

Once you've eliminated any variations in the common pieces then it points directly towards the systems themselves.

[Martyn]

Here are the results of the tests I performed over the weekend. Unfortunately I was unable to get hold of a Yamaha 2600 in time, so that will have to follow next weekend.

First I compared the following three arrangements for stereo audio quality:

1. My Denon 3300 DVD player into my existing Linn Intek integrated amplifier.
2. My Denon 3300 DVD player into a Rotel 1056 AVR.
3. A Linn Classik Movie (latest version) combined DVD/AVR.

In each case I used component video and analogue audio connections - nothing special, just typical OFC cables with gold-plated RCAs. I used the same component video cable to the same input on the TV in each case. I configured the Rotel for two-channel audio and used the CD audio inputs (the CD inputs seemed to produce a small improvement over the video inputs).

I'm confident that there was an improvement in SQ with each transition from 1 - 2 and 2 - 3, although I have to say that each improvement was very slight (and less than I was expecting). I'd describe it as an improvement in clarity and precision across the spectrum, although it wasn't always easy to spot. I could only make comparisons one track at a time, otherwise I'd begin to suspect that the changes could easily be largely imaginary. It might have been more obvious had I been able to switch instantly from one arrangement to another, although if you'd have to go to these lengths to spot the differences they are probably not worth paying extra for. For the serious testing I used some unaccompanied cello and classical guitar music, plus some more complex Diana Krall and Louis Armstrong pieces.

I then performed three further tests as follows:

4. Denon 3300 DVD player into the Rotel 1056 AVR as 2. above.
5. Linn Classik Movie line-out into the Rotel, thus using the Linn's DACs and the Rotel's amplification.
6. The Linn Classik Movie alone as 3. above.

The differences were about as hard to detect as for the first three tests. I think the Linn/Rotel combination was an improvement over the Denon/Rotel combination, and the Linn alone was better again, although again the differences were slight each time. There were times when the Linn seemed to be obviously head-and-shoulders above the others in terms of the overall emotiveness of the sound it produced, but it seemed to vary with the recording and I had no objective way to test this anyway so I'll put it down to my imagination.

On the video side, it was a straightforward comparison of the Denon/Rotel with the Linn Classik. I followed Jason's advice and picked a copy of Digital Video Essentials. I spent a morning fiddling with the TV only to conclude that it was pretty good out of the box.

I could detect no difference between the video images with the exception of colour. The Denon/Rotel produced remarkably life-like colour, while the Linn was rather too warm - tolerable but still a little irritating.

So in conclusion...

For home theatre the Rotel would do very nicely, although I would buy the later RSX 1057 just to get the HDMI as well. However, I'm going to try the Yamaha 2600 which claims to do up-scaling too and is cheaper than the Rotel.

For stereo audio the Rotel would be a marginal improvement on my current Linn, which would be an unexpected bonus, and I would think about adding external amplification for the mains at a future date. I like the clean simplicity of the Linn Classik, but the modest increase in SQ is not worth the considerably higher price (at least, not for me) and the video colour was disappointing.

I'm also thinking about separating the HT from the stereo audio. As I say, a 1057 would be more than adequate and I could run it from my existing DVD player until such time as new formats live or die. I could pick up a CD player (maybe a Cambridge Audio) and build a pair of interesting amps as a winter project for stereo audio. So many projects, so little time...

[aud19]

One: I find it hard to believe the disc made little to no, difference. This will likely sound harsh but... either you missed something or did something improperly. You put the set on the proper colour mode, turned off any noise reduction, black level "enhancement", VSM etc and reduced the sharpness to 0 or off? Then properly set your brightness and contrast followed up with using the blue filter to properly set your colour and tone settings so all the bars matched in colour and tone?

Two: You figured out that the Rotel surpasses your current rig for 2-ch and comes close to the new Linn gear at a much lower price and you want to go back to a mass-market receiver in the Yamaha....? I have to say I'm confused there.... :scratchhead: From your description, I'd be getting the 1057 and saving for a dedicated CD player or an upscaling player with an outboard DAC for better PQ and 2-ch SQ :T

[Martyn]

Jason, I didn't read anything about noise reduction or black level enhancement in the TV's manual, but I did do all the sharpness, brightness, and contrast stuff. I was unable to improve on the factory settings for matching the colours and tones through the filters. The blue was essentially dead on, while the green and red were very close.

No need to be confused - Yamaha is indeed mass-market equipment, although I'd hardly describe Rotel as being niche, boutique or whatever. I'd imagine that their production runs are quite substantial. There are arguments for and against how this might affect their respective sound qualities. Be that as it may, I have the opportunity to demo the Yamaha for nothing more than the cost of my time. The Yamaha is slightly cheaper and might offer some up-scaling advantage.

A couple of further comments: the Denon 3805 receiver I returned a week or so ago produced a sound quality noticeably inferior to my current two-channel system. The drop in SQ was more noticeable than the Rotel's slight improvement. We might expect the Yamaha to be closer to the Denon than the Rotel, but I'm willing to keep an open mind on this. Perhaps more interestingly, the 3805's video performance produced better shadow detail than either running my DVD player directly to the TV or when using either the Rotel or the Linn. The difference was very significant and is an important one for me in a home theatre system (and was apparent before I started tinkering with the TV's settings). I don't yet understand the reason for this difference, but I'm rather hoping that the Yamaha may provide an acceptable compromise.

I know almost nothing about outboard DACs, but I assume that their performance would have to be significantly better than those in current Rotel or Yamaha equipment in order to be worthwhile. Can you suggest a few models and prices (preferably available in Canada)?

[Martyn]

I picked up a Yamaha 2600 last week and played with it on and off over the weekend.

First, two channel audio. I ran the same CDs as previously using the same connections and cables. Although the sound was fairly clear, it was somehow flat and lifeless. It was enough to deter me from using it for stereo listening. The Denon 3805, although maybe not quite as clear as the 2600, was a lot more pleasant to listen to.

Now the HT stuff. On the audio side, the 5.1 performance was OK for my purposes. I don't know whether it would suffice in a high-end dedicated room, but for my multi-purpose living room it seemed quite adequate. The 2600 certainly has plenty of features, including a method for compensating for the reverberation time of the room. I didn't try any of these features because I'd already decided to return the unit for the reasons above.

The video quality was good too. The 2600 up-converts, de-interlaces 480i to 480p, and also up-scales via its HDMI output to the TV. This is where I ended up feeling somewhat bemused. Turning on the de-interlacing reduced the aspect ratio of a widescreen movie and also increased its contrast. I've no idea why this should be, although there's no doubt a simple reason. Switching to the HDMI output, I could detect no visible difference between the previous 480i image over component video and the HDMI image at 480i, 1080i, or 720p. I finally changed to component cables direct from the player to the TV and could see no difference. I can only assume that either the TV is up-scaling equally well or I wasn't using the 2600 correctly (but all the on-screen messages were correct). I'm concluding that I don't need an up-scaling player or receiver because the TV does it adequately. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please feel free...

So what's next? Well, I'll need to build a few more speakers before I can set up an HT system properly, and that will have to wait until later in the year. The Rotel 1057 is the front-runner at the moment, but maybe the HD format situation will be clearer by the time I have my speakers ready. In the meantime, I might see whether I can find an Arcam AVR300 to try. It's more expensive than the Rotel, but I'd expect the two-channel audio to be better.

My sincere thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I've learned a lot (enough to be dangerous, anyway).

[aud19]

Sounds like you've got a good game plan started anyways :T

[peterS]

sorry the 2600 wasnt to your liking
in rare cases i have seen tvs that scale better than external scalling devices but usualy 480p is needed..... the fact that 480i was indistinguishable to 720p has me somewhat sceptical
it seems that the toshiba does desirve some credit though

i think you need to just get a dedicated 2 channel set up for music and use a reciever for ht, there is no way around it imo

[Shane Martin]

i have a strong suspicion that alot of the pixelation i see on high def tvs may be attributed inferior 'hd' source material and reliance on the processor to scale

Alot of pixelation is due to OTA multicasting. The more multicasting the more the channel s bitrate gets cut into.

DIrectv is downrezzing like a mother right now so that would also attribute to the pixelation you are seeing.

Rarely do I see a scaler cause what most people see as pixelation.

[Martyn]

To be fair, Peter, the 2600 would be a fine receiver for many HT folk and would meet their needs admirably. It just isn't the right choice for me. I too was surprised that I didn't see any differences in the scaling. I spent a couple of hours on it and eventually wondered whether I should be looking for differences that were more subtle than I expected...but if they're that subtle I probably don't care anyway.

Still, the 2600 went back today and my wife is happy once again (which is what really counts) now that the living room is no longer strewn with boxes and cables Thanks for all your help.