Denon DVD & Receiver decision

[Martyn]

I'm heading towards 5.1 or 7.1 HT sound, but don't want to risk a drop in 2-channel audio quality over my present system (I run a Denon 3300 into a Linn integrated amp). I'm considering changing to a Denon DVD 2910 and AVR 3806 combination. Will the 2-channel audio quality decline? Would the Denon DVD 3910 be worth the extra cost over the 2910? Finally, can anyone suggest alternatives with more "audiophile" appeal for a comparable cost (I don't think I need quite so many bells and whistles - simpler is usually better). I'm also considering the Linn Classik Movie DI, but it's significantly more money. Thanks,

Martyn

[peterS]

I'm heading towards 5.1 or 7.1 HT sound, but don't want to risk a drop in 2-channel audio quality over my present system (I run a Denon 3300 into a Linn integrated amp). I'm considering changing to a Denon DVD 2910 and AVR 3806 combination. Will the 2-channel audio quality decline? Would the Denon DVD 3910 be worth the extra cost over the 2910? Finally, can anyone suggest alternatives with more "audiophile" appeal for a comparable cost (I don't think I need quite so many bells and whistles - simpler is usually better). I'm also considering the Linn Classik Movie DI, but it's significantly more money. Thanks,

Martyn

the 3910 will yield no improvement in audio, its improvements are with video- worth the extra money? i couldnt say
id say get the 2910 and then get an hddvd or bluray player when that craps figured out

i would not consider the 3806 simple... yamaha tends to be more user friendly
with that denon you are paying a fair amount for hdmi up conversion, for me it was something i didnt need

the one cool thing is that you can use just a single cat5 cable inbetween... i believe that is true for sacds too

i swapped the 3806 for rotel rc-1070 and rb-1080 and found a gain in sq but not exacly a fair comparison (i am just not interested in HT at this point)

i dont think you would be dissapointed with the combo :T

[aud19]

I think if you want to stay with higher SQ, seperates are the way to go. However as Peter elluded to, now isn't the best time to sink a ton of money in to a DVD player and/or pre/pro with HD-DVD, BluRay, HDMI 1.3, the HD DD/DTS formats etc all coming down the line soon.

My suggestion would be to go with the 2910 and upgrade/expand your amplifier(s) for now. The 3300 should have most of the current processing requirements etc you need now anyway. Hang on to it until you can get a pre/pro that's compatible with all the stuff I mentioned in a year or so

[peterS]

... it also depends on what speakers

let us know on what you decide, keeping in mind that that denon set up will be far better than what 99% of people have outside of this forum

[Martyn]

Thanks for your comments. As you may have guessed, I'm a buy-and-hold kind of guy - I like to buy good quality equipment and keep it for a long time. It seems to me that audio/video gear is moving in the same direction as computers - if you don't up-grade every two years, compatibility issues will soon render it inoperable. This may be something of an exaggeration, but the endless stream of new features, standards, and formats (especially the proprietary ones) is a handy way of driving the marketing machine. Call me a Luddite, but maybe a string of RCAs is hard to beat! On the other hand, maybe that's because I'm not familiar with hdmi up conversion, BluRay, and the rest.

Following up on Jason's sugestion, the problem with my 3300 is that it won't play burnt CDs or DVDs. This is only a minor inconvenience at present (although my daughter would disagree), but will become more of a nuisance as I start transfering my old vinyl to CD and fire up the digital video camera again. I guess I could always use my PC for these purposes as a stop-gap. So if I continue to use the 3300 as my primary source, I will still need to add a 5.1 amp if I want to embrace even basic HT...


....just been away surfing for a while and have discovered a Rotel RSX-1055 surround receiver. This is described as a 5 channel receiver to which a Rotel stereo amp could be added to make a 7 channel system. This makes me wonder whether I could use my present Linn amp for those extra two channels if I wasn't happy with the 2 channel audio performance of the receiver. Are any of you guys familiar with this product? How does it compare with the Denon 3806? I also discovered the RSDX-02 all-in-one product. This looks quite appealing although I'd imagine the performance might be lacking.

Finally, to answer Peter's comment, I'm using a pair of Eton 11.2 speakers (a kit design) as shown in the photograph on the left. I'd probably use some of Dennis Murphy's designs for the centre and surrounds in a 5.1 system. Hope this gives you some idea of where I am. Cheers,

Martyn

[aud19]

Sorry I assumed you were referring to the older 3300 receiver not the player. You will require something for processing. The 1055 is a good piece that should have better SQ than the 3806 but is nowhere near as current as far as features go being a older model. You'll also have to buy it used or get the newer 1056 model. Otherwise you should be able to use you Linn amp as you suggested

[peterS]

in my mind a dvd player is the least future proof
an external 5 channel amp is the most future proof

you will need an upconvert dvd player if you buy that plasma now
otherwise you could wait till high def players are mainstream, you will have better options in tvs too then

with that said you can get an upconvert dvd player for $100 that does provide some benefit to get you buy in the mean time
many ways to go about this...

[David G]

Don't do it!
I bought a Denon AV receiver about 4 years ago, can't remember the model number. When I listened to it I was amazed - at just how bad it sounded!!! Seriously, it sounded flat & lifeless compoared to my old 2 channel Marantz, and was so unbearable I took it back the next day. And that's coming from a guy who until then had always thought that the differences between amps is minor.
I have yet to find a home theatre amp that's as good as a moderate budget 2 channel.

[Martyn]

I think I can pick up a Rotel 1055 store demo for under C$1,000 - is it lacking anything useful that the 1056 has? The option of using my Linn for the mains gives me a 2-channel hedge against disappointing sound, but at the cost of a more complex hardware arrangement.

I agree with your comments, Peter, which support the principle of buying separates, but buying good separates becomes expensive very quickly! I think I've figured out what you mean by "upconverting" - I now realise that my 3300 DVD player won't produce a signal for a 1080i TV, but if I were to buy one that would, wouldn't that become obsolete the moment 1080p TVs appear?

Looks like there's no easy answer to all this, but it certainly is starting to make my brain hurt. Checking on Rotel gear again, it looks like a pre/pro, multi-channel amp, and DVD player could be had for around US$2,800. This is significantly more than the two Denon pieces. Got to go to bed...

[Nick M]

Denon has absolutely terrible service. I had a 2900 that malfuctioned, and went through hell with it. It was eventually replaced with a used 2910 that I currently use.

If you're the type that likes to "Hold on" to stuff, seperates is the only way to go (it also usually sounds so much nicer).

Check Outlaw Audio out. Fabulous products, prices, and service.

http://www.outlawaudio.com

They have great package prices for pre/pro's and amps. I run their older pre/pro the 950. I currently recommend the 990/7125 combo to friends and family. The 7x125W dedicated amp will last you "forever".

Most soundtracks are 5.1, and some are 6.1. As far as I know there are still no discreet 7.1 tracks on DVDs.

[Martyn]

Well, last Saturday I bought a 50" Toshiba plasma TV and a Denon 3805 receiver. The rest of the weekend was somewhat traumatic, given that the TV weighs something like 130 lb and the Denon instruction manual must have been written by a sadist with defective reasoning and a poor grasp of English. Maybe that's a little harsh, but it does seem to be hard to find anything that's reasonably intuitive to use these days. Even my daughter's teenage boyfriend was baffled.

Anyway, I've only had time to run a couple of movies and a few favourite CDs through it so far, but my first impressions are: great picture, disappointing two-channel audio. Pirates of the Caribbean is a perennial favourite in my household and was a delight to watch and listen to, even with a cobbled-together pair of surrounds and no centre speaker. On the other hand, two channel audio does not compare favourably with my 10 year old Linn integrated amp. The bass is a little flabby, the mid and high frequencies lack clarity and precision, and the soundstage is shallow. On the other hand, if I didn't know any better, I would no doubt be very pleased with it.

I haven't replaced my DVD player and am still running my three year old Denon 3300. I'm using the optical output to the receiver for audio and the digital co-axial output for video. I'm then running component video to the TV. I have yet to experiment with analogue cables instead of optical for stereo - maybe this weekend. Here's a thought: if I run analogue cables for the mains and leave the optical connection in place as well, what will the receiver do?

If anyone has any comments on this set-up, feel free...

I bought the 3805 with the recognition that I'd probably end up running external power amps for the mains (and maybe centre) eventually, and maybe using my Linn for just the mains in the interim. As it's turned out, the TV dominates our living room with a correspondingly low WAF. Thus the whole HT plan might end up being re-worked in the rec-room, with two-channel audio staying in the living room. If this comes to pass, the 3805 will do just fine, although I'll need to build lots more speakers

Cheers,

Martyn

[aud19]

First of all you don't need to connect the optical and coaxial output. One should work fine for both DVD video and CD audio signals. I personally prefer coax generally but listen to both and see if you can hear any difference with music. Then compare that with the analog connection you mentioned.

As for what the receiver will do, you will have to connect the analog cables to the analog CD input for example and tell the receiver to switch to that input to hear the analog signal. I'd recommend a "bypass" processing mode as well (as opposed to DPLII etc)

Hopefully, your seperate rec room HT / living room 2ch will work out because as I mentioned earlier (and you seem to have discovered yourself) Denon receivers aren't overly impressive for 2-ch

[eddiem67]

Why dont you get the best of both worlds and get a Bryston SP2

[Martyn]

There used to be a time when your hardware had one set of terminals and you bought or made up your cables to suit. Modern equipment fairly bristles with terminals to the extent that a simple chap like me doesn't know whether to use one, some, or all! I was under the impression that the optical output carried audio only. I will try both the optical/co-ax options and the CD alternative when I next have a couple of wife-free hours available. The 3805 does indeed have a "CD Direct" mode.

Using the power amps of my Linn for the mains was my insurance against the 3805 being less than compelling. The extra complexity of having an additional box is an untidy inconvenience, but that's about all. I'd already decided that I'm probably going to build two or three channels of DIY amplifier sooner or later anyway (another "learning experience"). If I decide to run two separate systems (HT and stereo audio), the decision becomes simpler - I'll go for something like a pair of AKSA power amps, maybe with the AKSA pre-amp too. This way I'll have a fit-and-forget HT system that will meet my family's TV/video needs for ever, and a stereo audio system that only I fully appreciate and can continue to tinker with.

Unfortunately, Eddie, Bryston gear is beyond my price point.

Thanks to you both for responding.

[aud19]

No problem Martyn :T

I was under the impression that the optical output carried audio only.

It does Optical and coax will both carry the digital audio information from a CD or DVD video in the DVD player to your receiver.

[peterS]

No problem Martyn :T



It does Optical and coax will both carry the digital audio information from a CD or DVD video in the DVD player to your receiver.

unless its super audio then analog is the only option something that i am starting top think i would have been better off avoiding altogether :roll:

because i like the thought of a nice silver cable vs a piece of plastic, my choice would be digital coax - unless he went with a denon dvd player and just used ilink


Martyn:
you're in for some headaches with that denon 3806 (i hope you ment 3806 otherwise you have made a poor choice in my opinion)
not only are the functions counter intuitive but the manual does nothing to help.... it will definitaly take some patience to fully use the 3806

toshiba's plasma is last years model i assume
i am curriouse as to the model number and price you payed

as for dvd players you do not need to upgrade as the 3806 will do the upconversion for you and has very good d/a for cd listening
i used it for cd listening for some time and felt it was rather nice
i only switched to a rotel pre and 2 channel amp becuase i have no interest for a ht setup and felt i was paying for things i wasnt using
the new setup sounds marginaly better but i do have much more power at my disposal. you can always decide that for yourself too but i think you're sitting good :T

[mattburk]

if you want to step up in 2 channel audio the best bet is to get away from denon. A equally priced marantz or rotel will do better.

[Martyn]

Some clarification and a correction...

First the correction. In Post 11 above, I said that I'm using a digital co-ax connection...I'm not. It had been a long day and I'd tried lots of different things to get the gear working. I was using an optical connection as I reported, but I also ended up using a big, fat composite cable for video in the absence of anything better in my box of bits. I will change this to component video when I get the chance (I'm running component cables to the TV).

This evening I ran a pair of RCA audio cables to the CD input as Jason suggested and then did a few quick tests. I couldn't hear any difference in stereo audio quality between using the CD input or the optical DVD input (in pure direct mode in each case). I'll pick up a co-ax cable and try again.

Peter, I was considering the 3806 originally but saved some bucks with the 3805 instead. I can do without the microphone, HDMI output, and radio stuff that seem to differentiate the two models. The manual is certainly obtuse but I'm starting to see the light.

The Toshiba is a 50HPX95. I paid C$4,300 including stand. I assume it's a current model although I'm not really all that bothered as long as it does what I want it to. The latest model becomes last year's model soon enough anyway.

[peterS]

if you want to step up in 2 channel audio the best bet is to get away from denon. A equally priced marantz or rotel will do better.

how so? snob apeal or do you have real life bench tests?

[peterS]

Some clarification and a correction...

First the correction. In Post 11 above, I said that I'm using a digital co-ax connection...I'm not. It had been a long day and I'd tried lots of different things to get the gear working. I was using an optical connection as I reported, but I also ended up using a big, fat composite cable for video in the absence of anything better in my box of bits. I will change this to component video when I get the chance (I'm running component cables to the TV).

This evening I ran a pair of RCA audio cables to the CD input as Jason suggested and then did a few quick tests. I couldn't hear any difference in stereo audio quality between using the CD input or the optical DVD input (in pure direct mode in each case). I'll pick up a co-ax cable and try again.

Peter, I was considering the 3806 originally but saved some bucks with the 3805 instead. I can do without the microphone, HDMI output, and radio stuff that seem to differentiate the two models. The manual is certainly obtuse but I'm starting to see the light.

The Toshiba is a 50HPX95. I paid C$4,300 including stand. I assume it's a current model although I'm not really all that bothered as long as it does what I want it to. The latest model becomes last year's model soon enough anyway.

i am just curious as to why you would get a hd tv then not be interested in up converting all the video to hd quality.... that is really what you are paying for with that denon piece, also the ability of that mic to be placed in all seating arrangements for it to determine the best time alignment is great
id strongly suggest looking into it, especially since your tv only has one hdmi input and your dvd player only progressive scans (id assume it does at the very least).... to me it is more cost effective to get the 3806 instead rather than buy an upconvert dvd player in my mind

nice screen btw.... there is not a newer model but it is last years version
that is the commission based model (few extra frills and black frame) seems like you got a real good deal as long as it wasn't a previous display model.... take the time to set the picture quality properly and get the 3806 and id say you are set

as for the sq side of things the sound differences are not as black and white as some make it out to be on here.... id focus more on using everything you got to its fullest potential by setting it up properly

[peterS]

i am just curious as to why you would get a hd tv then not be interested in up converting all the video to hd quality.... that is really what you are paying for with that denon piece, also the ability of that mic to be placed in all seating arrangements for it to determine the best time alignment is great
id strongly suggest looking into it, especially since your tv only has one hdmi input and your dvd player only progressive scans (id assume it does at the very least).... to me it is more cost effective to get the 3806 instead rather than buy an upconvert dvd player in my mind

nice screen btw.... there is not a newer model but it is last years version
that is the commission based model (few extra frills and black frame) seems like you got a real good deal as long as it wasn't a previous display model.... take the time to set the picture quality properly and get the 3806 and id say you are set

as for the sq side of things the sound differences are not as black and white as some make it out to be on here.... id focus more on using everything you got to its fullest potential by setting it up properly

i was just reading the 3806 manual and it seems it doesnt upconvert the resolution after all.... only switches.... that changes everything ops:
seems denon doesnt even offer video upconversion in any of there recievers
i guess the yamaha 5990 is not the only reciever the claims to be "hdmi upconverting" when only hdmi switching :M
this one will and is the same price as the 3806 http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/r...rs/RXV2600.htm

[aud19]

how so? snob apeal or do you have real life bench tests?

Peter, there's numerous professional reviews, with bench tests not to mention our own ears that show Marantz/Rotel (and better companies) to out-power and generally outperform most "mass market" gear, particularly in regards to 2ch

[Snap]

Yammy is the way to go for HDMI, and just about everything. :T If you do not need HDMI switching I am supprised that no one mentioned the RXV-2500! 8) Yammy kept it around to get people to stop complaining about them stopping production of that unit. 130 watts a chan, and it is a sweet unit. No HDMI switching and is the same price as the RXV-1600. $900

Some one said that the Denon Manual was rough! :yesnod:

I agree their manuals are a pain in the butt! Great sounding amps they have. But user freindly they are NOT. :twisted:

And Nick is right there service is......below par! (Talking about Denon) :evil:

I have the DVD-950 for my DVD player. The only problem that I have with it, it is SLOW as crap to load, change tracks, well do anything really. And do not go crazy hitting buttons either. That thing does not like it. But I do like it more than the 2910 that I had to have repaired 3 months after I got it! (The 2910 has sence left the building!)

[Martyn]

I've now tried both a digital co-axial cable for two-channel audio and component video for, well, video between the DVD player and the receiver. At first I thought that the co-ax was an improvement over the optical, but then decided that it was too close to call (just my imagination). The component video was an obvious improvement over composite when viewed up close - high-contrast diagonal edges such as in on-screen text were smoothed very effectively, although I'm not sure that my eye could resolve this at my usual viewing distance of fifteen feet. I can't say that I noticed any other differences, although I spent no more than 20 minutes in total on the above tests.

I have to admit to being somewhat confused over the whole HDMI issue (which is probably fairly obvious from my various posts in this thread). Thus I really don't know whether this is something that I need or not. On the one hand, I can imagine that HDMI should be a useful form of connectivity in the future, if only for the convenience of fewer cables in the short-term and for some form of auto-detection and configuration function in the longer-term. On the other hand, a succession of home computers has taught me that paying extra for future up-gradeability is a waste of time and money. The cynic in me thinks that HDMI is really more about copyright protection for big business and less about the needs and wants of the market. If anyone can give me an objective assessment of the real benefits of HDMI in a couple of sentences, I'd much appreciate it.

The manual for the Denon 3805 says: "The AVR-3805 is equipped with a function for up-converting video signals. Because of this, the AVR-3805's MONITOR OUT jack can be connected to the monitor (TV) with a set of cables offering a higher quality connection, regardless of how the player and the AVR-3805's video input jacks are connected." It seems to me that this statement has nothing to do with converting 480i to 1080i (or whatever), but is really about improving the quality of the output signal when using a higher level of output connections relative the the input connections. Even so, the value of this function is unclear since I've just demonstrated that using component-in/component-out gives better quality than composite-in/component-out.

Where does all this leave me? Well, I have about three weeks of headroom on the retailer's return policy on my 3805. You guys have already suggested Yamaha's RX-V2500 and 2600 (depending on the outcome of the HDMI question). Certainly the price of the 2500 is in the right ballpark; the 2600 looks like quite a lot extra to get the benefits (?) of HDMI. Are there better choices in this price range (bearing in mind that I'd like to improve the two-channel audio quality over the Denon too)?

I've seen references to separate scalers/switchers/converters from the folks at Rotel and Sherwood - do these things essentially fill this HDMI gap? (I don't really understand what these things do).

In case I haven't already said it, your collective wisdom is much appreciated.

[aud19]

For better 2-ch performance look at receivers from the likes of Rotel, Sherwood Newcastle etc...

You should have noticed more than a "slight" improvement from the composite to component change... and yes you'll want to connect component from the player to the receiver and then component again from the receiver to the TV or directly from the player to the TV if you don't require the receivers video switching capabilities.

Have you calibrated your display? That could be the reason you're noticing little improvement. I would recommend calibrating the set either by an ISF tech (ideal with the best results but not cheap) or do it yourself with a calibration disc like AVIA or Digital Video Essentials.

You're pretty much on point regarding HDMI. While it has the capacity for slightly better PQ over component (VERY display/source dependant), it's primary raison d'être is copy protection. However (because of copy protection) the upcoming HD-DVD/BluRay as well as most current upsampling players will not transmit anything higher than 480p over component. Which means HDMI will be required for 720p, 1080i and 1080p signals. Upcoming HDMI 1.3 will also support the new HD audio formats from DD and DTS ( though no current receivers support HDMI 1.3 as it's still being finalized).

[peterS]

i would suggest an upscalling of some sort as anything lower than the native rez of that pannel will look pretty bad.... to me a reciever that does it is the easiest and most cost effective
external scallers are outside of my knowledge

[grit]

It's too early to think of HDMI. It's not finalized yet, and whatever pre/pro you get will not suppor the upcoming audio format. As Jason pointed out, the most prominant reason for HDMI is to have compatability with upcoming HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray discs. However, no pre/pro in current production will decode the audio, so there goes 1/2 the reason to worry about HDMI right now. I'd wait.

And yes, shoot for Rotel or Sherwood, or etc. I think you'll get LOTS more out of your money that way.

[Sim reality]

I dunno about other people but I had the choice to wait for HDMI 1.3 or buy my RSX-1056 now and I decided to buy it now... Maybe I am just justifying my decision to myself but here are my reasons:

1) HDMI 1.3 is yet to be finalized and Dolby and DTS HD decoders might have just hit circuit designers test benches.
2) I don't have room to expand past 5.1 (WAF)
3) I don't think I will be able tell between current Dolby and DTS digital and HD soundtracks on movie soundtracks (just not enough complexity in the soundtrack) and my music preferences right now is 2 channel.
4) I am going to need an external video Scaler anyways b/c I live in Canada where the government has not mandated the end of analogue broadcasts in 2010 and it ends up cheaper to buy an external video scaler then buy 2-3 video sources that upscale for me.

[Vinny]

I'd agree to ignore the HDMI situation right now. Personally, I don't think I'll get the HD-DVD or bluray even one of them wins out immediately when they just released(while a normal player sells for $1000 and the disks are 30ish each with much lower popularity than DVD, and DVD sells for 10-20ish everywhere). The new preamps prices will spike like sky rocket(double or even more) when they just get released. I'm one of the majority that reasonable pricing is much more important than being a pioneer of the new tech. That pushes me another year behind the release. In other words there's at least one and a half year to two years until you hit the roof and have to buy a new pre. Don't forget your TV probably needs to be changed to accept HDMI 1.3(or possibly higher) as well.

[aud19]

Don't forget your TV probably needs to be changed to accept HDMI 1.3(or possibly higher) as well.

Current HDMI already passes 1080p video. 1.3 is more about audio formats etc

[Vinny]

Current HDMI already passes 1080p video. 1.3 is more about audio formats etc

From Martyn's previous post he has the Toshiba 50HPX95 right now, which is upto 1080i. He needs to change the TV for the full 1080p

[Martyn]

You guys are making a lot of sense, although there are still lots of gaping holes in my knowledge.

Jason, no I haven't calibrated my display (and haven't a clue how to do so), but I will pick up a disc and get to it. By saying that "most current upsampling players will not transmit anything higher than 480p over component. This "means HDMI will be required for 720p, 1080i and 1080p signals", are you saying that HDMI is essential for any image that is higher than 480p? If so, it would seem that I need to pay attention having just bought a shiny new plasma HD TV.

My general feelings are a good match with Sim's and Vinny's, and I don't really expect to get very excited over new disc or surround formats, but I do need to run some kind of HT gear and I don't like to change $1k+ pieces of hardware every few years.

Now my existing DVD player isn't even a progressive scan model (I don't think), so it's already a weak link. I see that Sherwood has a universal disc player (US$799) that does 5.1, upscaling, HDMI, and just about everything else I can think of. With a player like this, wouldn't you run the HDMI straight to the TV and therefore not need an HDMI receiver? It seems to me that most of what a receiver does is sound processing rather than video processing anyway. In fact, how essential would a receiver be anyway if you were to run the player's 5.1 output straight to a 5-channel amp? I guess you'd still need the speaker set-up and delay stuff, but wouldn't a receiver like the RSX-1055 be more than adequate in this scenario?

Alternatively, I see there's an RSX-1057 which appears to be a dead-ringer for the 1055 only with HDMI. I guess this would still need an up-scaling player unless the arrangement included an external scaler. Somewhere there's got to be an optimal combination of hardware that does a good job without duplicating many of the functions...actually the Yamaha RX-V2600 looks quite slick since it has HDMI and does up-scaling, although I don't know how it's priced.

Ooops...my wife just called - I've been summoned home...

[peterS]

You guys are making a lot of sense, although there are still lots of gaping holes in my knowledge.

Jason, no I haven't calibrated my display (and haven't a clue how to do so), but I will pick up a disc and get to it. By saying that "most current upsampling players will not transmit anything higher than 480p over component. This "means HDMI will be required for 720p, 1080i and 1080p signals", are you saying that HDMI is essential for any image that is higher than 480p? If so, it would seem that I need to pay attention having just bought a shiny new plasma HD TV.

My general feelings are a good match with Sim's and Vinny's, and I don't really expect to get very excited over new disc or surround formats, but I do need to run some kind of HT gear and I don't like to change $1k+ pieces of hardware every few years.

Now my existing DVD player isn't even a progressive scan model (I don't think), so it's already a weak link. I see that Sherwood has a universal disc player (US$799) that does 5.1, upscaling, HDMI, and just about everything else I can think of. With a player like this, wouldn't you run the HDMI straight to the TV and therefore not need an HDMI receiver? It seems to me that most of what a receiver does is sound processing rather than video processing anyway. In fact, how essential would a receiver be anyway if you were to run the player's 5.1 output straight to a 5-channel amp? I guess you'd still need the speaker set-up and delay stuff, but wouldn't a receiver like the RSX-1055 be more than adequate in this scenario?

Alternatively, I see there's an RSX-1057 which appears to be a dead-ringer for the 1055 only with HDMI. I guess this would still need an up-scaling player unless the arrangement included an external scaler. Somewhere there's got to be an optimal combination of hardware that does a good job without duplicating many of the functions...actually the Yamaha RX-V2600 looks quite slick since it has HDMI and does up-scaling, although I don't know how it's priced.

Ooops...my wife just called - I've been summoned home...

all recievers serve a dual purpose... audio of course and video switching so you dont change inputs on the tv and only need to worry about one long cable run (great for inwall stuff)
most will switch up to component, some will even progressive scan
then some will switch up to hdmi and some even will "upconvert/upscale" to hd resolutions (720p/1080i) for your screen you will want to look for 720p as that is its native rez

in some rare cases you can feed high def through component (analog) how much of a degridation it is is contingent on many things
cable and satelite boxes allow hd through the component but most upconvewrt dvd players do not
its your call if you want the either the reciever or the dvd player to upconvert but id say it is important for at least one of the two

[Audiophiliac]

I swear by Denon receivers for people who fit the "receiver" category. They are bulletproof, user friendly, and easy to setup and use, and have lots of useful features.

However, yes you can get more performance from a receiver if you move up to Rotel or the like. (We sell Denon, Marantz, and Rotel for receivers).

It depends on what the rest of your system/budget is made of.

[aud19]

From Martyn's previous post he has the Toshiba 50HPX95 right now, which is upto 1080i. He needs to change the TV for the full 1080p

My point was that current HDMI specs already surpass his current requirements up to 1080p

[aud19]

its your call if you want the either the reciever or the dvd player to upconvert but id say it is important for at least one of the two

* Or the TV. They have internal scalers to match all incoming signals to their naitve rate as well don't forget It's just that sometimes players or other external scalers do a better job. Also external scalers (either in the rare receiver's like the Yamaha or a stand alone scaler) will scale multiple sources (generally better than the TV) where a player will not.

As Peter also pointed out Martyn, most HD cable/sat boxes will do HD (720p/1080i) over component... at least for now. But upsampled DVD/HD-DVD/BluRay will require HDMI/DVI.

As for the calibration of your TV, don't worry, both those discs will walk you through the process. Just make sure you get one of those two discs, there's lot's of generic "setup" discs out there that don't work nearly as well. Also to calibrate your surround sound you will require a Radio Shack SPL meter

[aud19]

Oh I almost forgot... you're not likely to find a 1055 or even a 1056 at this point unless you buy used Also the 1056/1057 have upgraded processing over the 1055 so I'd try to go that route if you can.

[peterS]

* Or the TV. They have internal scalers to match all incoming signals to their naitve rate as well don't forget It's just that sometimes players or other external scalers do a better job. Also external scalers (either in the rare receiver's like the Yamaha or a stand alone scaler) will scale multiple sources (generally better than the TV) where a player will not.

As Peter also pointed out Martyn, most HD cable/sat boxes will do HD (720p/1080i) over component... at least for now. But upsampled DVD/HD-DVD/BluRay will require HDMI/DVI.

As for the calibration of your TV, don't worry, both those discs will walk you through the process. Just make sure you get one of those two discs, there's lot's of generic "setup" discs out there that don't work nearly as well. Also to calibrate your surround sound you will require a Radio Shack SPL meter

i have a strong suspicion that alot of the pixelation i see on high def tvs may be attributed inferior 'hd' source material and reliance on the processor to scale
while it only happens during fast frame changes tvs with superior processing (sony xbr lcd and pioneer) are least likely to do it, but even running 480p into these two looks noticably degraded

so i think the greatest benefit will be with a receiver that upscales and a dvd player that progressive scans well... that the most bang for your (Canadian) buck in my mind... hope we arnt sucking all of the fun out of your new toys

[Vinny]

My point was that current HDMI specs already surpass his current requirements up to 1080p

Got beat :bash:

--------------------------

BTW Martyn, enjoy for what Rotel offers now, especially in seperate since you can replace the preamp for more easily(which is two years or so as we discussed, or even longer if something killer format blows both of them away :W ).
If you want a player that do all HDMI/upconverting for now, I would highly recommend Oppo DV971H. I ordered it by mistake as I wanted a multiregion player and thought I would return it even before it shipped out from stock. Now it sits over both of my region free dvd player and the quality is simply amazing and I decided to keep it. The pioneer and another philips dvd player(which also has 720p upconverting) I have were simply back to VHS level upon A/B comparison with the Oppo :B . And it's only $200 afterall, future proof is out of the question and it is not a big money.

In response to your reciever question, here's my crazy thought:
you do not need the reciever upon such case if you only have one source(DVD player this case). If you have more than just DVD player(let's say you want to put in TV for the sound as well, or a decent CD player), get a source switch and get an 5channel amp for the moment(or with the two channel amp to make up 7.1 as well). The volume of the amp can be controlled through the DVD player and save the money on the preamp(well that's when you only have one or two sources). I guess it's the cheapest solution out there since you do not really need the reciever/preamp part.

I actually worked this out from one of my friend's setup. They wanted a cheap setup back in 3years ago or so, $500ish but better than HTIB setup. I used Klipsch promedia 5.1(it was computer speakers level, but still better than many HTIB by that time) and their digital decoder(act as a switch for TV+DVD source, $150) and a cheap dvd player. After set it up I was amazed what the price could be done with the lesser amount of money of HTIB but better quality(HTIB were ranged around 700-1k for basic setup 3years ago). It was far from a HT system that most of us have but it was pretty good for a normal family. But yea the thought of source switch to get around with preamp would still work if you want to save the buck for the preamp until new format kicks in. Moreover, you can jump right into seperate with a decent amp right away. A good 5channel amp can probably serve you 10years without any problem!

I do not know how good the internal DAC of the Oppo is. But I can give you some clue after I try it tomorrow, it's too late to crank it up now :B

[Martyn]

... hope we arnt sucking all of the fun out of your new toys

Not at all. In many ways, "ignorance is bliss". I was watching a movie last night with my wife and found that I enjoyed it much more once I stopped looking for artifacts and started watching the movie.

I was watching with the DVD player connected directly to the TV and thinking: "this is pretty good for 480i on a 50" TV", but if the TV is doing its own up-scaling, what am I seeing? Does a TV up-scale automatically to its highest level of resolution, i.e. 1080i? I guess the quality of the final image comes down to the algorithms that the component uses to fill in the gaps...

[Martyn]

Thanks, Vinny. I've been thinking along these lines, but finding it difficult without having a good understanding of what's going on technically. Thanks to the folks in this forum, I now have a much better grasp (albeit it still a little shaky in parts).

I'm going to move back to the main thread for my follow-up post (the fragmentation is getting hard to follow)...

[aud19]

I was watching with the DVD player connected directly to the TV and thinking: "this is pretty good for 480i on a 50" TV", but if the TV is doing its own up-scaling, what am I seeing? Does a TV up-scale automatically to its highest level of resolution, i.e. 1080i? I guess the quality of the final image comes down to the algorithms that the component uses to fill in the gaps...

It is upscaling to your sets native resolution, which is 1366 x 768

[Martyn]

Well, I had a very interesting morning yesterday (mixing a little A/V in with some business meetings).

I returned the Denon 3805 without any difficulty. The retailer agrees that the Yamaha RX-V2600 looks like it would resolve the various up-scaling and HDMI issues (setting aside the impending new standards and formats) and should be getting one in next week. I've been offered it for C$1,299 which was significantly lower than I was expecting. I hope it will arrive in time for me to test it over the Easter long weekend.

I then paid a visit to my upper-end retailer who is going to bring in the new Linn Classik Movie 05. This is really too expensive for me, but does have some interesting pro and cons so I'm going to give it a try. The machine is much closer to my needs in terms of limited formats and unnecessary bells and whistles (for me, simplicity is better), but has some up-grade impliciations since it is an integrated player/processor/amplifier.

This retailer is also a Denon and Rotel dealer, although he brings in the Rotel gear on special order only. He tells me that the Rotel 1057 receiver has an MSRP C$200 lower than the 1056 - this might reflect increasing competition in this segment, or it could be in preparation for the launch of the new gear. The 1057 is an HDMI machine although it appears that it doesn't up-scale. We also discussed a Rotel 1068 pre/pro with a 1075 five-channel amp, but the price is moving up rapidly (~C$3,500) and is getting close to the Linn (which also includes a player).

There is also a new Denon - the AVR-2807 - which is well priced at C$1,200, but again is doesn't seem to up-scale (and it'll probably have the same two-channel audio weakness as with the 3805 so I'll give this one a miss).

So here are the contenders in summary:

1. Yamaha 2600 for C$1,299. It's got it all but might not do stereo audio well enough.

2. Rotel 1057 for C$1,585. Probably better stereo audio but doesn't up-scale.

3. Rotel 1068/1075 for C$3,500. Lots more money, not sure about up-scaling (probably not).

4. Linn Movie 05 for C$4,300. high initial cost but almost certain to exceed my present stereo audio performance.

The Linn's all-in-one construction eliminates duplication of DACs, processors, scalers, etc (except for the TV, of course), and all the interconnects are internal so those issues go away too. It only does 5.1 surround, but then that's all I want. Linn is very thin on detail when it comes to the technical stuff, but the Movie doesn't appear to up-scale. It also ignores HDMI (as indeed most British gear seems to). Linn's philosophy appears to be to keep it simple but do it well - I like this approach! The only logical option is to test one, and doing so alongside the Yamaha should be a very interesting exercise.

I need to give some more thought to the potential for up-grading an all-in-one piece, but it might not be too bad. These things hold their value quite well, so the trade-in cost is probably much the same as replacing one or more components in other brands. The alternative would be to add a new player as an external source if that should become necessary, and it has the usual pre-outs that would permit power amp up-grades. As I've said before, I'm a long-term buy-and-hold guy so this kind of scenario would occur only with a major shift in technolgy (like vinyl to CD, or tapes to DVD).

I should really write a lot more in response to the collective comments you've all given me, but I think this post is already long enough. Suffice to say that I will still have to decide whether the HT continues to be combined with my stereo audio, or whether the HT moves downstairs and runs as a separate system.

In the meantime, if you have any suggestions for specific tests I could run on the Yam and Linn over Easter, please let me know. These could be in the form of highly revealing CD/DVD discs, or whatever. If any of you Vancouver boys will happen to be in Victoria that weekend, you'll be welcome to swing by. Cheers,

Martyn

[aud19]

I wish I was swinging by Victoria, I love visiting there with my GF (who's originally from Victoria BTW )

Personally if was my money I'd likely go with the 1057 (which you should be able to get at least 10% off that price ) and buy this Oppo upsampling DVD player for video:

http://www.oppodigital.com/opdv971h.html

[Martyn]

What would cause colour variations between two player/processor setups when playing the same DVD on the same TV?

I was unable to get my hands on the Yamaha 2600 in time for the weekend, but I did get a Rotel 1056 and a Linn Classik Movie. I'm using the Rotel connected to my existing Denon DVD player via component video, while the Linn has its own built-in player. In both cases the output to the plasma TV is via the same component video cables. The TV's calibration is good. One setup produces very good colour rendition while the other is too warm. What could account for this difference?