In Defence of Multichannel mixes

[csuzor]

Todd Anisman raised the point about the importance of speaker time alignment when playing in muti-channel mode. Is there equipment out there that does time alignment for DSD sources? I haven't seen any. Is there still a substantial benefit to multi-channel SACD without time alignment?

There are a growing number of sacd players with time-alignment of speakers for sacd, including higher-end Sony and Denon, and Sony even claim to not require a conversion into PCM to do delay (and bass-management btw)

I have seen reviews where they claim correct time alignment makes a huge difference, but my denon doesn't have it, so I don't worry about the 1-foot difference in the center channel... but time-alignment capability will be mandatory for my next player.

[Brahma]

Great thread topic Ovation, and I agree with the majority of your sentiments. Very well sumised.

Personally I continue to alternate between multi-channel sound mixes (either DTS or 6-ch stereo) and normal stereo, depending on what I am listening to and my mood.

On my equipment anyway (it doesn't play SACD) bringing in all channels is more for overall enetertainment and fun rather than a pure listening experience. So if it's bassy and loud and I feel like I want to be at a night club then I'll choose multi-channel. If it is a high quality recording and I want to hear the precision of the music and the best my gear can sound, then I'll go for plain old stereo. My ear/brain has no difficulty re-adjusting.

Now is SACD worth the investment? Can someone tell me is there a drastic improvement with SACD over conventional CD played through multi-channel mixes?

It would be nice to have the same level of musical precision, and in the way the recording studio intended, played back in each corner of my home theater.

[aud19]

Great thread :T I personally Love my DVD-A discs but listen to the stereo/MC mixes based on the individual disc. I started a thread describing a lot of this in "In Tune":

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=5961

The Neil Young Harvest Moon DVD-A for instance has a horrible MC mix, )even though it's "accurate"!?) So I listen to it in 2ch. Fleetwood Mac Rumours is excellent in both but I do slightly prefer the 2-ch version as well. Metallica, both again are awesome but I prefer the MC on this one. Bucky Pizarelli's Swing Live is supposed to be awesome in MC (available on both DVD-A/SACD), I'm hoping to get it for father's day along with a Superbit Spiderman 2! :P My copy of Carmina Burana is also awesome in MC!

Todd, nice to have a pro here :T I think if the mixers would concentrate on simply making the soundstage deeper, wider and with a better defined centre for vocals that's all you have to do. (Sounds easy right! :P) Stereo's pretty good most of the time and you can get a good phantom centre and depth going with it. So basically expand on that to make the front sound stage more solid and the ambient more enveloping while spreading out the intrumrnts/vocals with the extra space afforded and the consumer will be happy. I don't mind the odd "gimmicky" thing especially, when as pointed out the music's supposed to be fun or it works with the material (Floyd's DSOTM). Just use it sparingly and when appropriate. I don't want to be listening to Bach/Bethoven etc and have violins and flutes swirling around my head in a 5 channel pan or popping in to a rear channel! :lol:

[csuzor]

Personally I continue to alternate between multi-channel sound mixes (either DTS or 6-ch stereo) and normal stereo, depending on what I am listening to and my mood.
...
So if it's bassy and loud and I feel like I want to be at a night club then I'll choose multi-channel. If it is a high quality recording and I want to hear the precision of the music and the best my gear can sound, then I'll go for plain old stereo.

Now is SACD worth the investment? Can someone tell me is there a drastic improvement with SACD over conventional CD played through multi-channel mixes?

It would be nice to have the same level of musical precision, and in the way the recording studio intended, played back in each corner of my home theater.

Brahma, you seem like the ideal candidate to jump into SACD (or DVD-A, Rebelman ) because of the mch capability and (arguably) high quality.

6 months ago I was listening to CD just like you, in stereo or DTS or 5-CH-stereo. However, it is never as real as a good mch mix, and on my modest equipment SACD sounds better (the sound opens up, less compressed, greater dynamic range, multiple instruments can be heard more easily).

Do yourself a favour, buy a decent mch player (sacd if you like classical, dvd-a if you like pop/rock), take the time to play with the speaker positions, I am convinced you would enjoy it.

Christophe

[Rob2ski]

MC versus stereo

Brahma, you seem like the ideal candidate to jump into SACD (or DVD-A, Rebelman ) because of the mch capability and (arguably) high quality.

6 months ago I was listening to CD just like you, in stereo or DTS or 5-CH-stereo. However, it is never as real as a good mch mix, and on my modest equipment SACD sounds better (the sound opens up, less compressed, greater dynamic range, multiple instruments can be heard more easily).

Do yourself a favour, buy a decent mch player (sacd if you like classical, dvd-a if you like pop/rock), take the time to play with the speaker positions, I am convinced you would enjoy it.

Christophe

Agreed,
Once you hear a well mixed multi channel mix on a properly set up system you will rarely listen to the stereo mix.

[csuzor]

In support of many more future multichannel music releases, an interesting market research on industry professionals shows that most
"believe that surround sound will play a very important role in the future development of the ‘high-end’ recorded music market....
there is a low level of general consumer understanding regarding surround sound (particularly surround sound for music)...
few consumers understand the nature and potential of surround sound and that many consumers believe that all surround sound is similar to that experienced on DVD-Video movie soundtracks...
believe that the evolution of high resolution music formats, such as Super Audio CD are an important development in the audio industry due to the superior surround sound quality it offers music lovers. They believe that this quality, in terms of its specialist multi-channel audio abilities is something that will be valued more and more as people’s understanding of the technology and its capabilities are more fully understood...
more music should be made available as good quality surround sound"

http://www.superaudio-cd.com/news/newsitem.php?id=79

[LEVESQUE]

Once you hear a well mixed multi channel mix on a properly set up system you will rarely listen to the stereo mix.

I totally agree. I had alot of die-hard 2ch aficianados at my place recently, and they all came out of my room with the mouth wide open. They were really impressed with our little multi-ch sessions. All those guys are using high-end Krell and the likes 2ch set-up and didn't believe how good the multi-ch experience was in my room.

The problem is that multi-ch need the room, and the set-up to really shine. Well implemented, it's really impressive, and a totally different experience compared to 2ch.

[csuzor]

I must tell you that, since I have swapped my dedicated center speaker for an identical speaker to the L/R, and moved it forwards to have all equal distances, the soundstage has become alive! In stereo you get some impression of depth, but mostly it's about direction (to the left or right). With 3 front speakers, depth is very accurate... tiny phase differences from the 3 speakers accurately provide direction and depth. I am sometimes completely fooled into focusing behind the speakers, where the instruments were during the recording. Fantastic realism!

My sacd player does not have distance/delay compensation, so I set all 5 speakers physically at equal distance. I heard an interesting theory from a sound specialist, that states "distance" compensation through "delay" is absurd, because this assumes the sound only travels directly to you, and ignores the mixing of different sound sources on walls and ceiling. So the recommendation, is to avoid delays, and move the speakers if necessary. Otherwise, realism is compromised.

[Shane Martin]

"believe that surround sound will play a very important role in the future development of the ‘high-end’ recorded music market....
there is a low level of general consumer understanding regarding surround sound (particularly surround sound for music)...

So much so that Vinyl is outselling dvd-a and sacd combined??

Once you hear a well mixed multi channel mix on a properly set up system you will rarely listen to the stereo mix.

Unfortunately those are RARE indeed. There is a reason why Multi Channel music hasn't caught on.

[csuzor]

Hmm, Shane, sounds like your taste in music is not covered by the current good mch recording and mixing engineers. There are only hundreds of good mch disks available, so if these don't meet your tastes, fine. For others, there is a range of good mch music available. And with the right setup, it sounds great.

Let me add that I spoke to a recording engineer today, who confirmed he and his buddies were setting up a new label to distribute mch recordings, on dvd-a, and would include classical and non-classical music. The mch scene is alive, the future is bright.

Other than the Dark Side of the Moon SACD Multichannel, I've yet to hear a good or even IMHO acceptable Multichannel mix.
The Eagles last concert on TV was another prime example of how poor multichannel can be and is.

It mostly sounds hokey and instruments are misplaced or in the case of several mixes put into places that they don't need to be. The Eagles HFO disc is a good example. Personally I feel that mc music is a gimmic at the moment. Great Mixes are far and few between.

[Pieter]

Give it time.

Time for the recording engineers to find their feet.

Time for consumers to become aware of the format and its potential. (HT is an aid.)

Time for the format developers to sort out their avaricious squabbling.

P.S. - I think that last one is the one to scuttle the ship.

[Shane Martin]

Hmm, Shane, sounds like your taste in music is not covered by the current good mch recording and mixing engineers.

Actually it's plenty covered with the Eagles, Sting, Rolling Stones etc. I just wish they would start doing mixes for some more mainstream bands. If they do then the appeal will grow. Right now hi res music is a niche format at best and failing. It can't outsell Vinyl.

I do understand that they are likely just getting their feet wet with MC mixes so it will take time. If they can do DSOTM the way they did, I think they could apply that to the others. Unfortunately they get lazy. Poor mixes(2 chan or multi channel) have been around for ages.