Why raising speaker cable off the floor?

[audiofan]

Hi,
I see here and there that audiophile raises the speaker cable off the floor. What is the benefit of it? And does it matter which material to raise speaker cable or it has to be some specific material?

thanks.

[David Meek]

I admit I'm a sometimes tweaker, but this is one of those tweaks that I put in the snake oil category. Field-type interactions between a speaker cable and a carpet? I also have to admit it could just be my system isn't revealing enough or my ears aren't good enough to discern a difference.

But, I doubt it. :B

[audiofan]

David,
Thanks for the info. Yeah i don't understand why ... but i doubt it now.

[NonSense]

I believe the theory is that a uniform air dielectric is superior to all others. This could be why high tension wires are pure conductors strung on insulating elements. (or maybe no insulating material can suitably withstand the high voltage and harsh environment) I'm sure someone at sometime has wired an exotic system with bare wiring hung on insulating tri-pods and has realized superior performance. That's just before his cat nocked it all over and burned down the house.

There is likely some benefit, however it is at the point of deminishing returns and I would expect that it may only be audible on a true reference system. I think many of the principles behind the Nordost cables are with repect to air dielectric, uniform conductor separation and minimizing insulator interactions by having no cable jacketing.

[Lex]

nonsense, was pretty much nonsense. Just kidding, you were pretty much right on with what you said. Additionally, the cables are hoisted off the carpet for isolation. The idea is, if you isolate the wires from the ground, the system can sound better. It's also thought carpet can have static electricity running through it, so you avoid contact with that as well. Is this all nonsense? Well, it's certainly a tweakers last tweak I think in terms of priority. But it's not going to hurt anything anyway, and if you are creative with the platforms, it don't have to cost that much to do, so the question then becomes, why not? We isolate components, why not cables?

Lex

[georgev]

Of all the snake oil out there this has to take the cake. This would then lend credence to putting battery packs on the cables and then you wouldn't have to elevate the cables.
I am guilty of owning one of these fancy cables with the battery, and I must admit I LIKE to perceive differences compared to my other cables. Do I, dunno, but it made me happy to buy those cables(and the manufacturer, much happier).

[audiofan]

So , the cable elevator will be made from rubber? I see picture somewhere that diy cable raiser made from wood. I think it wouldn't hurt to try. I am not sure i can hear the difference as day and night or it's just there that my ears can't detect it. Thanks all for the info. Have a great weekend and to me it will be a busy weekend to do tweak ...

[scottielee]

my guess is that separating cables from the ground/wall/rack will also reduce vibrations getting to the cables. i must admit i am a bit vibraphobic for my gear. my westlake omega cable muffs were a fairly cheap $50 tweak. can't say i have heard a difference. but i like their looks, plus i get a little peace of mind.

[Blazar]

vibraphobic... lol

It's amazing how we can convince ourselves of almost anything ... however implausible. The mind is such a powerful thing yet so malleable.

[Snap]

:agree:

:LOL:

I think you will have more results sitting down with a RTA and a good set of CD's and adjusting the EQ's all over again then raising the wire off the ground.

Definatly Snake oil in my book. ANd Blazar you are right. we can sell ourselves just about anything..... :lol:

[audioqueso]

It's so the rats won't eat the cable... obviously! lol

[Patt]

I've seen them for sale made out of plastic, wood and porcelein (sp?). I would venture a guess they are designed for a highly revealing megabuck system.

What I dont agree with is quickly dismissing something as snake oil. YMMV

[Bob]

I'm lucky in that my best audiophile buddy is the head of one of the electrical engineering departments at TRW, now Northrop/Grumman. He is pretty good at sorting through the the various tweaks that get touted by audiophiles, at least from a objective point of view. It also helps that he has a great system and is a amateur musician with very good "ears" for the subtleties of sound.
For almost a year he constantly played around with vibration control, something I had thought was b.s. for anything but turntables. He had no problem understanding the physics and electrical implications of vibrations and felt that taming the effects of vibrations was a worthwhile endeavor. He did a lot of experimenting, I mean boxes full of tried and then discarded materials. Everything from super balls cut in half inside of Japanese soy sauce dishes to exotic materials used by NASA and inside of submarines that he brought home from work. In the end all the experimenting paid off. It absolutely has made a difference in his system. Each of his components has various pieces of stuff layered under them. The improvements are small but, you do hear them when he removes the little piles. I guess someday I will mimic his little piles but, I don't find it very important.
The second "tweak" he believes in are Richard Greys power conditioners. He put less effort into studying various brands of conditioners than he did into his vibration control. I know he brought a couple of popular brands home for trials and opened them up and looked at them then sent them back. He felt the only one that made sense was the Richard Grey stuff. He uses them on all of his components but, says that there is no improvement in sound. When I asked him what the point was he went into a explanation that including graph paper and I was lost at the starting gate. This is one I just took his word for that they were a good thing and put some of them in my system.
Now, as to cable. It was at his house that several of us compared several cables and came to the conclusion that some cables did indeed improve a audio system, most did nothing different than plain cables that come with your inexpensive VHS player, and some were harmful to the sound. We also felt that interconnects seem to have less effect than speaker cables. We have since experimented several more times with different cables and different listeners and each time came up with the same answers. So, I feel very confident in saying that sometimes cables can make a difference and silver v.s. copper is only one of the parameters that matter.
As to cable elevators and batteries for cables. Again, deferring to the engineer. The reasoning behind both is sound. And, he uses plastic picnic glasses turned over to raise his cables. Does it sound different? No. Why does he do it? He feels that since it costs almost nothing and the science is sound, why not. Sometimes several minimal changes added together suddenly make your system sound better. The batteries are the same thing. The science is sound but, remember, they are only supposed to avoid the need for a warm up period, not improve the sound. Since your other components still need to warm up before sounding their best, I would say they are a waste of money. But, I have them

[Snap]

What I dont agree with is quickly dismissing something as snake oil. YMMV

Patt what does "YMMV" mean? Just wondering?

[Patt]

Hi Snap,
YMMV= your mileage may vary... :rofl:
Thats the first time I've used that abbreviation, and probably not the neatest way to say something.

[Burke Strickland]

In God we trust; all others have to explain. :&gt

Again, deferring to the engineer. The reasoning behind both is sound.

Would you care to elaborate on what his reasoning is regarding the wire platforms? (Go ahead and let us know how he explains the batteries too, if you don't mind.)

Thanks,

Burke

PS -- I also use Richard Greys (singular RG/plural RGs) on my system. Can't really hear more than a very subtle difference (which may be the "want to hear an improvement" effect, but with my old projector, I had to recalibrate after plugging it into the RG (my new projector has always been, so its initial calibration already accounted for that). In addition, the RGs saved my HT system when an electrical storm took out the control unit for my central AC.

[Bob]

Would you care to elaborate on what his reasoning is regarding the wire platforms? (Go ahead and let us know how he explains the batteries too, if you don't mind.)

Right now I am working odd hours on the last few days of Brian De Palma's latest film and don't have time for socializing during the week. Larry ( the engineer) will be coming over this weekend and I will re-ask him this question and try to get a simplified answer regarding the electromagnetic forces that surround our cables and why raising them up has the potential of some benifit. As to the batteries, I beleive that his explanation was the same as AQ's. They don't change the sound of the cable, just keeps them in a already warmed up state. If your asking me to defend either of these things, your asking the wrong guy. I already stated that we don't hear any differences with either of these tweaks. That doesn't mean the physics isn't sound in regards to what they do but, they may have no impact on what we hear.

[Jesse111]

Definately snake oil. C'mon. Does anybody really believe this? No one could blind test this "tweak" and tell an audible difference. We as quality audio listeners have got to stop falling for this crap and also ridiculous claims with power cords (which is a real joke) as well as very expensive cables and interconnects.

[David Meek]

Jesse111, cool it with the antagonistic rhetoric. Everyone is entitled to their opinion in this forum, right, wrong or indifferent. Your's is just that also - an opinion.

Discussion of the issues is good and hoped for, but posts of an "everyone is an idiot if you believe. . . ." nature aren't going to be tolerated.

Audio Hideout Moderator

[Jesse111]

No problem David, I suppose my comment is a bit forward. My motive is just trying to help those who "I feel are mislead". But, you are right, that is just my opinion. I will cool it, and thanks for the warning.

[Andrew M Ward]

I Love Cable !!!

I'm a huge fan of exotic interconnects...

I can't really hear the difference, but so what, i love the way they look and the quality of construction. I have over $5000 in AudioQuest and about $3000 in Straight Wire running through my system. I am deleriously happy with them.

People buy things for all sorts of reasons, performance is only a small portion of the mental excersize required to make the purchase.

I mean really, there are a few Subaru models that out perform BMW's buy a measurable quantity, yet cost $20,000.oo less

But there are a myriad of resnons to drive a BMW, performance is only one of them. The Car industry and the Electronic industry suffer no less from those trying to protect people from theri foolish purchases, i'll tell you what, don't try to save me, i'm already lost. (and happy)

Frequently I have noticed Mid-Fi useres criticizing exotic electronics. Frankly most Receivers are painfull for me to listen to yet receiver owners are quick to shoot down the other guy as wasting money. A fascinating study in psychology / envy / pride / fear are all revealed based on a few simple sentances.

No worries,

P.S. Save yourself.
Just my 2 cents

[StefanColson]

I have no problem with people spending their money however they want, and I'm glad you brought up the car analogy. Your BMW has a great deal of features that justify the $20k price difference with the Subaru. The interior is of much higher quality, in terms of the build and the finish. Much painstaking detail has been taken to ensure that what you are recieving is truly a product in a different class. That 20k is spread around in many areas, including but not limited to: Upholstery (ack, I've never tried to spell that before) which is probably a very fine leather, finish of the dash and other interior fixtures (I'll bet it's not plastic like the Subaru), features like automatic seats and fixtures (I'll bet the subaru only has an automatic driver seat, if that), seat warmers, dual zone climate control, an upgraded stereo, more advanced engineering features (traction control stuff and other goblygook that I don't completely understand), refined safety features, blah blah blah. You get the point. At $45-50k-ish your BMW doesn't represent a bad value when you consider all of the refinements and compare it to a $25k-ish Subaru. For twice the price, you're getting twice the automobile (we buy cars for more reasons than just pure performance).

Let's talk about exotic interconnects now. It's true that you are recieving a superior finish and build, refined aesthetics, and a higher quality cable. However, unlike the BMW the exotic cables don't surround you in enhancements that you will experience every day. Even you feel that the interconnects you have represent an improvement over more reasonably priced models that's on par with the improvement the BMW represents, the increase in price associated with the cables would be like the BMW costing $2.5 million dollars compared to the $25k of the Subaru. If that was the case, would you still be interested in spending your hard earned cash on the superior car? To make matters worse, you said yourself that you can't hear any difference between the cables. This leads me to believe that because the improvement is based on aesthetics alone you probably feel that the Subaru to BMW jump is more significant than the cable jump. Now we're looking at something more like a $25k Subaru vs. a $2.5mil Subaru with leather interior and a body kit. If you're a bazillionaire and you want that $2.5mil car, more power to you, but I think it's a little crazy.

Bottom line, if you like the expensive interconnects, you can afford it, and it makes you happy - GREAT! Glad that you have found something that pleases you. Satisfaction is worth whatever you can afford to pay for it. I'd probably buy some pretty crazy stuff (by alot of people's standards), and the B&W speakers I have on their way are crazy enough to most people. On the other hand, I think paying 100 times as much for a product based on aesthetics is insane. The real problem is that companies are charging thousands of dollars for cables that many times don't offer a discernable difference in sound quality from less expensive alternatives (again an opinion, and some interconnects make a difference... most do not IMHO). We'd all be happy if someone made a cable that looks like a $3000 cable for $30.

[Burke Strickland]

Having heard a mere change of speaker wire turn a pile-of-crap-sounding system into the high quality listening experience that the level of the individual components would lead one to expect made me much less of a skeptic regarding the potent effect speaker wire can have.

I can attest to the difference a couple of sets of speaker cables made in a friend's system. With the old "hand-me-down" cables he was using that had been salvaged from his dad's vintage 1970s system, his Vandersteen/Arcam system sounded muddy in the midrange, tubby in the bass and had a rather constricted soundstage. We first played around with speaker placement and improved the soundstage, but the aural quality of the presentation was still more boom-box than hifi.

We replaced the old cables with some "other" cables that retail for about $1,200 a pair and which look like a couple of six foot pythons had each swallowed a couple of lengths of wire and were now spitting and sh***ing the spade lugs :>) (brand not specified out of respect for the site sponsor). With that single change, the sound became much more listenable.

We then switched to yet another brand (also not specified out of respect for the site sponsor) which retails for about $600 per 10 foot pair. They made the system not just listenable, but actually enjoyable. The midrange "opened up" with more clarity and body and the bass got tighter, more "musical". Not perfect (still need some room treatment to tame a very "live" space). But enough better to say "if you can't hear the difference, you might have a hearing disorder".

I should add that I had brought over the $600 cables. I had purchased them years before in a "weak moment" (a local store was having a sale) :>) before I had any association with this site. I didn't pay anywhere near their MSRP, but a LOT more than I had paid for the generic 12 gauge stuff they replaced.

Although I knew they didn't hurt the sound in my system, (in fact, seemed to make subtle improvements in an already refined sound), I wasn't prepared for the enormously positive difference they made in someone else’s system. I had assumed that the subtle improvements I had discerned in my own system could, maybe, possibly, be ascribed to the "placebo" effect. However, the difference we heard in the other system was more than just the "power of suggestion".

The manufacturer of my semi-high-priced cables allegedly engineered them to synergize as an "extension" of the power amp I am using on the two main front channels. So I was even more surprised that they had such a dramatic effect when used with a different brand of amp.

There was no possible way to set up a double blind test on this, but with the obvious -- not at all subtle -- results, sorry, don't need it. Before this little non-scientific but persuasive demo, I didn't believe in my head, or my heart-of-hearts, that speaker cables really made all that much difference. Now I'm convinced that at least in some situations, they can make a significant difference -- and that difference is worth the investment.

Burke

PS -- Soon we plan to arrange a "blind" test (the "test" listeners won't know which wire is connected when, but the person making the connections will know, since the wire has to be physically connected to the component terminals rather than switched via a control box) with some other friends and see which cable they prefer with the same setup. I'll be quite surprised if anyone selects the old hand-me-downs as their favorite among the choices offered. (I'll let you know either way, but no firm schedule -- it may not even happen this year, given everyone's busy schedules.)

[audiofan]

To my opinion, good power cable and interconnect will make my system sings even though the difference is not day and night. I first replaced my speaker cable from HomeDepot to Canare 4s11, which i made as DIY project. THe sound was different and louder. I thought it was it until i tried Straightwire Rhapsody. The sound was cleaner.

Next is the power cord which i bought from audiogon.com and the bass is tighter.

I can go on and on , but the whole thing makes my system enjoyable and i'm pleased. Note that all of my stuffs bought used so that i don't have to spend a fortune for them (gosh, i'm poor ....

Anyway, i can only tell the difference when i sit down, and pay attention to the sound first time and especially, no kids around....

Happy listening, everyone.

[Bob]

I promised that when I finished the Black Dahlia that I would post why my electrical engineering friend thought raising cables off the floor made sense. Well, I'm done but now he is off water skiing. When he gets back I'll revisit this.
Again, I don't beleive anyone is going to hear any change in their system by doing this. Then why try it? Well, it costs next to nothing (you probably already have some plastic glasses taking up space in your cupboards). There is a chance that when you employ several tweaks that have similar effects, when added all together you do get benifits. Vibration control of electronics is an example. Trying to eliminate any outside emf's is another.
In regards to wires that bind our components together. Unfortunately, they can make a difference. Not always, and high price doesn't equal high gains. And, yes, many if not most cable products are all about profit and not science. But, not all.

[audiofan]

Yep, i tried to raise cable off the floor and I don't hear any difference at all.

[Snap]

:tts:

I wonder if there is a place that we could try all this stuff out? Like some sort of "Blind Test Heaven"

Silver vs Copper, flat vs round, 25 twist vs 10 million twist, gold plated vs silver....... I think that is why we love HT and Audio so much....it is an art and we will never arive....There will ALWAYS be.....UPGRADES.

Ya'll need to be nice! :nono:

[Jesse111]

A fascinating study in psychology / envy / pride / fear are all revealed based on a few simple sentances.

No worries,

P.S. Save yourself.
Just my 2 cents

And all this time I thought we were talking about music. What was I thinking? Just kidding Andrew.

I suppose in the end it's all about how one feels. Personaly, I completely agree with Stefon. If it helps one enjoy their system or causes them to believe it sounds better by spending large amounts of cash then good for them. My only concern is folks that don't have the cash that may feel they're missing out on something sonically (not bragging rights or aesthetics). But there in lies the rub. Those who have, say it does, those who don't, say it doesn't. But there is another group. There are those of us who have the funds available to make these very expensive purchases but have made a choice not to. I just simply can not hear any difference. My DHLabs speaker cables and interconnects are great in my opinion. I wired my whole system for a couple thousand bucks. I've listened to very expensive cables and I can't hear any difference as well as with some of these other exotic "tweaks" we read about like power cords and such. I'm not dissing on those who choose to buy these things. I do think however, some folks come to this forum with concerns about hype and may find some good direction with all points of view. As I've learned, we just need to be civil and kind about our comments.
I think it would be a disservice to accuse those folks of being envious, prideful or fearful because they make a choice not to spend thousands and thousands on speaker cable and another couple thousand on a power cord.

[AndrewM]

If it helps one enjoy their system or causes them to believe it sounds better by spending large amounts of cash then good for them.

Nice and condescending there How about if they spent no cash? Maybe a little cash? It's always amazing to me how money is the root of every "tweak" discussion on these various forums. Somebody mentions a "tweak" that doesn't cost anything and hardly anybody responds with the "Prove it with quadruple super-duper blind tests" type comments. Mention that a tweak costs some X amount of dollars that is above some personal "value limit" and posters come out of the woodwork trying to save the tweakers from spending their money.

I think it would be a disservice to accuse those folks of being envious, prideful or fearful because they make a choice not to spend thousands and thousands on speaker cable and another couple thousand on a power cord.

One can turn that around as well into;

I think it would be a disservice to accuse those folks of being hearing impaired, easily influenced, deaf, whatever because they make a choice to spend <some amount of money above what you believe is "proper"> on speaker cable and a power cord.

[Jesse111]

Sorry about that Andrew. I honestly did not mean to sound condescending. It truly is all about what each one likes. Hard not to slant your statements with your own opinions. I'll try to mellow it out even more next time.

I do have a question for you though. Do you think there is an audible difference in raising speaker wire off the floor as some "audiophiles" say? No expense at all in that so called tweak.

Sorry again for the way the statement appeared to you.

[AndrewM]

Sorry about that Andrew. I honestly did not mean to sound condescending. It truly is all about what each one likes. Hard not to slant your statements with your own opinions. I'll try to mellow it out even more next time.

I don't disagree with any of that, but just keep in mind the "bias" you show against various tweaks is just as strong as the "bias" for them. When you say that the audiophiles are easily influenced by price, looks, phase of the moon, that influence works just the same on your end, you "know" what works and what doesn't, and you will likely "hear" just that.

I do have a question for you though. Do you think there is an audible difference in raising speaker wire off the floor as some "audiophiles" say? No expense at all in that so called tweak.

I couldn't say if there was or not, I've never tried lifting my cables off the floor. I'm not going to dismiss it just because it sounds "strange" or foreign to me though, but I'm not going to say yes either. I do know that my system at home doesn't have nearly enough resolution to make use of a lot of "tweaks" that are out there.

I'd also agree with the point that there are a lot of people out there spending time/money in the "wrong" place when it comes to their various systems. I once visited a friend who had a nice little setup going, $15k speakers, $8k amp, $4k pre-amp, $400 CD player (I have no idea why), he also had probably around $2-3k tied up in cables for all of this. Yet because of the room the speakers were a whole 6 inches from the walls, not a single room treatment, etc.

Andrew

[Bob]

I'd also agree with the point that there are a lot of people out there spending time/money in the "wrong" place when it comes to their various systems. I once visited a friend who had a nice little setup going, $15k speakers, $8k amp, $4k pre-amp, $400 CD player (I have no idea why), he also had probably around $2-3k tied up in cables for all of this. Yet because of the room the speakers were a whole 6 inches from the walls, not a single room treatment, etc.

You are absolutly right, Andrew. First you take care of all the non controversial major improvements that you can do to optimize your components. Proper speaker placement and any room treatments that are needed that don't conflict with your decor or ability to use the room for other intended uses. Then you start experimenting with the minor tweaks that may or may not get that last ounce of improvement out of your system.

[Andrew M Ward]

I have no problem with people spending their money however they want, and I'm glad you brought up the car analogy. Your BMW has a great deal of features that justify the $20k price difference with the Subaru. The interior is of much higher quality, in terms of the build and the finish. Much painstaking detail has been taken to ensure that what you are recieving is truly a product in a different class. That 20k is spread around in many areas, including but not limited to:

Awesome!
Stef, your whole quote was well thought out and entertaining as I've ever read. I certainly agree with your perspective and enjoy reading your input.

Every purchase is a reflection of ones own privately held delusion.

Radio Shack Zip Cord at $00.29 a foot or Audio Quest stuff at astronomical prices. My point was simply that performance in its purest measurable sense was not usually a reliable measure of personal value to the buyer.

All of this stuff is fairly well studied and documented...

Simply relating an interconnect purchase based on price / performance differences is not uniform with how we measure every other purchase we make every day over our entire life.

When we criticize interconnects based on price we're identifying ourselves as "Not too sharp" in the bigger picture. Do we criticize all items in all industries that cost a lot? Do we only base purchases on measurable performance differences, based on one group or set of criteria?

Nope,
But that's what makes me smile, if you could see my face right now. I laughed and giggled as I read your response and enjoyed it fully. I believe you are right on the mark in so many ways, yet ultimately those points are almost meaningless when divided out over time and over all categories of purchases and human behavior.

Just my 2 cents
Keep smiling and never take this forum too seriously
Andrew M Ward

[David Meek]

Keep smiling and never take this forum too seriously

Just this forum?

[maddog]

Every purchase is a reflection of ones own privately held delusion.

At last, a statement worthy of a quote. :T

[Jesse111]

Oops, pressed too many buttons.

[Jesse111]

[QUOTE=Andrew M Ward]Every purchase is a reflection of ones own privately held delusion.


Have to completely disagree on this one. I see no delusion with measured spec numbers and reasonble science that supports the purchase of quality high end equipment. I know, I know this is only my opinion. But, blind tests have been done in many areas and it's rather embarrassing how much folks can't tell differences. Yet claim they can when they know what's being added or subtracted from a system. I thinks it's a bit of a "tell" that most blind test haters (not all) are the guys who love the super big buck and controversial tweaks. But, of course that's ok. No doubt someone could put together a system for a lot less than mine and in a blind test I might like theirs even more. So, to a certain degree, yes, I have components that cause me to enjoy my system simply because I know they are there. I have no problem admiting that. I love "feeling" good about my system as well as knowing it definately sounds superb. Science doesn't have to prove whether or not one feels good about a componant they have in their system or not.

By the way Andrew, you seem to fancy yourself as a bit of a human behaviorist. That's cool, you might say I've studied it a bit myself. Please note what delusions actually are. Delusions are an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary. Ah yes, there's that refreshing word, evidence. Blind tests and double blind tests are a proven science that has helped us understand human behavior immensly. They work because they eliminate all predetermined desired results. To say every purchase is a privately held delusion is what's refered to as a global statement reflecting that you may be a bit of an all or nothing type personality. Hence your enormously expensive equipment. LOL, Ok, not serious just having a bit of fun with ya. I respect anyone who loves a quality system. I must admit I'd sure love to hear yours.

[Andrew M Ward]

[QUOTE=Jesse111]

Every purchase is a reflection of ones own privately held delusion.


I see no delusion with measured spec numbers and reasonble science that supports the purchase of quality high end equipment.

That statement perfectly defines a privately held delusion...


I know, I know this is only my opinion. But, blind tests have been done in many areas and it's rather embarrassing how much folks can't tell differences. Yet claim they can when they know what's being added or subtracted from a system. I thinks it's a bit of a "tell" that most blind test haters (not all) are the guys who love the super big buck and controversial tweaks. But, of course that's ok. No doubt someone could put together a system for a lot less than mine and in a blind test I might like theirs even more. So, to a certain degree, yes, I have components that cause me to enjoy my system simply because I know they are there. I have no problem admiting that. I love "feeling" good about my system as well as knowing it definately sounds superb. Science doesn't have to prove whether or not one feels good about a componant they have in their system or not.

By the way Andrew, you seem to fancy yourself as a bit of a human behaviorist. That's cool, you might say I've studied it a bit myself. Please note what delusions actually are. Delusions are an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Facts and evidence are presented from a perspective, all availabel to be argued later...

Ah yes, there's that refreshing word, evidence. Blind tests and double blind tests are a proven science that has helped us understand human behavior immensly.

Blind tests prove that blindfolds work to obstruct vision, little else.

They work because they eliminate all predetermined desired results. To say every purchase is a privately held delusion is what's refered to as a global statement reflecting that you may be a bit of an all or nothing type personality.

All is nothing...everything can't be measured and neither can nothing.

Hence your enormously expensive equipment. LOL, Ok, not serious just having a bit of fun with ya. I respect anyone who loves a quality system. I must admit I'd sure love to hear yours.

I love it!

[Jesse111]

You say my statement of specs and reasonable science;
"perfectly defines a privately held delusion"

what delusion might that be in your estimation?

You say;
"Facts and evidence are presented from a perspective, "ALL" available to be argued later"

Ok, let's argue whether 2+2 equals 4. Ya gotta watch those global statements, they tend to sneak up on ya. By the way, what you got against facts and evidence anyway?

You say;
"blind tests prove that blindfolds work to obstruct vision, little else".

LOL!!! Good one Andrew. That really is funny. So you're a bit of a comedian too. Man of many talents.

You have some interesting little quips my friend and using them to prove anything is certainly comical. No doubt you are a jokester.

You say; "All is nothing...everything can't be measured and neither can nothing"

Excuse me? Could you please repeat that? And what does that have to do with anything in the world that makes sense?

LOL Stop..please stop.. your killing me man

By the way Andrew, on the serious side, when you quote me please do not include your comments in with my quote. It's a bit confusing and if my collegues see that, and think I've made those statements they will laugh me out of the office.
You're a lot of fun dude but I guess it's about time to wrap up the thread. Go ahead and lay some more comedy on us. You get the last word. Talk to you later.
Thanks.

[RobP]

WOW! :E All of this over two pieces of wire............. :roll:

[Andrew M Ward]

Pissing Match

Well I see we've digressed into a semantics pissing match, which doesn't say much of either of us, but here we go.

1). Jesse111 said:
You say my statement of specs and reasonable science;
"Perfectly defines a privately held delusion"

Jesse111 question to Andrew:
Q: what delusion might that be in your estimation?

My Answer
A: What is reasonable Science and are you the person who decides what reasonable science is? (That pompous statement is fraught with delusion)


2). Jesse111 said:
You say; "Facts and evidence are presented from a perspective, "ALL" available to be argued later"

Jesse111 question to Andrew:
Q: Ok, let's argue whether 2+2 equals 4. Ya gotta watch those global statements; they tend to sneak up on ya. By the way, what you got against facts and evidence anyway?

My answer
A: I would certainly agree that 2+2=4
It happens to fit in with my own personal reality. But more on topic; AudioQuest has reams and reams of data that "proves" how much better their cables are, frankly I don't really care about that either, and other engineers argue that copper is copper and that that's the only fact that matters to them.

It goes on and on, facts from all kinds of sources are used to create answers that meet one group or another’s desired results. No one has ever personally witnessed an electron yet one group of electrical engineers will argue (from the perspective of electrons; which can't even be proven to exist) frankly it's hysterical to watch.

Hey, I would agree most of the available data suggests that electrons exist in a manner very close to the theory put forth in modern science. That said, there’s a whole lot of theory floating around disguised as fact, and what’s a fact when it’s built from the foundation of a theory? Hard to say? Very hard to argue.

3). Jesse111 said of Andrews comments:
You say; "All is nothing...everything can't be measured and neither can nothing"

Jesse111 question to Andrew:
Q: Excuse me? Could you please repeat that? And what does that have to do with anything in the world that makes sense?

My Answer
A: I was simply responding to you saying that I had an “all or nothing personality” and in the next sentence you made the statement that Blind test removed ALL of some kind of undesirable effect...

All? I was interested in the word all. All isn't measurable, and not a good word choice there especially after identifying me as an “all or nothing guy”

Other than that, I think we’re pretty much on the same page and I happen to agree with the bulk of your opinions and we’d probably get along great if given an honest chance.

Oh, I use Classe’ gear as well. (Love it)

Just my 2 cents
Andrew M Ward

[maddog]

I don't want to get in the middle of this dog fight (and I thought I was the mad dog ) and I certainly don't want to take sides, but I do want to make a few comments on the whole blind-test issue. I mean I just want to know who are these people who can't tell the difference between all of this gear and how exactly are these tests being conducted? Of course the average person off the street can't tell the difference. You have to know what to listen for, it depends on your hearing abilities, and it depends on your brains ability to process that information. Most people are not detail oriented and are highly succeptable to suggestion and prior held biases (on both sides of this issue). Not to mention that you're dealing with human memory, which is to say the least, less than perfectly reliable when dealing with something as complex and subjective as sound.

I am not saying that I could tell the difference between every piece of equipment if I did not know which was which (although I do think I could do better than most). But, the issue to me is if you hear a significant difference between two components, and then you take a blind test and also hear a difference, but for some reason, fail to correctly identify which one is which, does that mean that the difference between the two is not meaningful or does not really exist? I mean the fact that most people do hear a difference but then fail to correctly identify which is which is IMO a bit contradictory and evidence that there is something fundamentally flaud with the conclusion that blind tests show that there really are no meaningful differences between components. I don't think that dismissing the claim of a difference as being the result of pure human phsycology having nothing to do with sonic difference is the correct answer either. I know what I hear. Blind tests are not real world listening scenarios. I could not care less what a bunch of people that I never met think or don't think they hear in a test that I don't know the details of.

For anyone that's interested, there is a good article on John Atkinson's personal experiences and thoughts on blind tests in the As We See It section of the July issue of Stereophile. Check it out. It's a good read.

- maddog

[Victor]

What an interesting thread! I would like to make only one comment here, - any attempt to relate the mechanical vibration of the cables to the electrical signal propagating in those cables would constitute a violation of physics as we know it. To put it another way, quantum mechanics does not allow this.

One can dance around with the cables while listening to music with no overall effect observed or most definitely measured.

…regards,
Vic

[StefanColson]

maddog:

I don't know about everyone else, but when I refer to someone not being able to differentiate between two cables (for example) in a blind test, I'm talking about the inability to hear any difference at all. The whole idea of a blind test is to see which of two variables you prefer. Not being able to correctly identify which cable is which during a blind test tells us nothing. The whole point is picking the one that you like the sound of better and then finding out which it is. If you (think) you can hear the difference between a Denon reciever and a Mark Levinson amp and then you take a blind test and hear a huge difference but incorrectly identify the Denon reciever as the "vastly superior" Levinson amp then you've affirmed that the difference between the two is meaningful and does exist and your preference is the Denon reciever. Your preconcieved notions of brand and assumed quality are taken out of the equation by the fact that the test is blind, and you are able to choose the gear that you honestly prefer (not the gear that you think you should prefer). If you take the same blind test and fail to hear any difference between the amps whatsoever, then you've proven that the difference between the two is negligable. The test is even better if it's presented to you as "Rig A" and "Rig B", where you don't know what's being compared. Then you are truly free to choose without any previous bias.

Andrew:

According to the dictonary:
Reasonable:
1) Being within the bounds of common sense.
2) Not excessive or extreme; fair.

Science:
1) The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2) Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

[Bob]

any attempt to relate the mechanical vibration of the cables to the electrical signal propagating in those cables would constitute a violation of physics as we know it.

Where did that come from? I know this has been a long thread but, I don't remember anybody saying raising cables off the ground was about mechanical vibration.
In regards to blind testing for audio gear. Although I have participated with friends in side by side testing for the fun of it at our houses I wouldn't put much stock in blind testing for audio. I know the sound of my own system very intimately yet, sometimes it takes me weeks of listening before I recognize something I don't like or do like or hear something new.
Some things can be immediate and startleing like changing a major component or discovering that moving the furniture had an affect on the sound but, most things take awhile to notice and sometimes only after they are taken away. I think in a blind test I would be trying to hard to see if I heard a difference to really be listening.