Bryston vs Rotel

[gianni]

victor,

Nice to see you posting again. I always enjoy reading your well written and informative posts. I am betting however that there are some out there that don't want to hear what you have to say regarding their beloved Bryston amps.

As far as the amps go, I don't pretend to know even a fraction of what you do when it comes to the technical aspects. But my listening experience leads me to the same conclusion - you can do better for the money. That does not mean I do not like them or would not own one. I just would not pay full retail for one.

It does make me wonder though - why hasn't Bryston updated their design? I guess maybe that supports the view that no major gains have been made in linear ss amps in a long while.

[Victor]

victor,
It does make me wonder though - why hasn't Bryston updated their design? I guess maybe that supports the view that no major gains have been made in linear ss amps in a long while.

gianni,

This is true to a great degree. Although there some very unique amplifier designs out there, most power amp companies utilize the same circuit with minor variations. In principle there is nothing wrong with using proven and time tested circuit topology, - Bryston certainly does exactly that. It is just I find it difficult to justify the costs associated with a purchase of such amps when better, cheaper and also more modern alternatives are out there.

If you wonder about ‘not me too’ power amps, look at Sunfire products, look at Ampzilla, look at Bob Cardel’s feed forward amplifier, look at current feedback design by Mark Alexander. Although some are commercially available, unfortunately most of those amps only exist in the DIY market, as most power amp companies shy away from the complexities associated with those designs. For the record, there are tangible benefits to an end-user offered by Sunfire and Ampzilla products that designs like Bryston and others just can’t provide.

In my view with the availability of clean and cheap Class D power, it is impossible to justify the price that Bryston amps command. Look at UcD400, - 400 Watts for $150 per channel with more then acceptable THD and efficiency that no linear amp can touch. Don’t want to build your own, - its ok, the DIYcable.com will do it for you and the cost is more then reasonable, - how can you beat that?

regards,
Victor

[Armbender]

Regardless of price..i still love my 4BSST ugraded from the 1080

[sirbogey]

Finally Behringer A500 can be had for next to nothing. I bought 2 of them for $180 each locally in Toronto and they are currently replacing my trusty Bryston 3B. I hear no differences through my 3-way full range dipoles. I used them to drive the RD-75 section which extremely revealing as far as drivers go.

So, - as much as I like Bryston the company, their products in my view are fast becoming outdated and outright surpassed by others. Rotel is only but one example of a clearly superior deal, with UcD definitely outclassing the Bryston technology and the Behringer A500 is certainly the best bang for the buck of them all. My money is on UcD.

regards,
Victor

Victor,

I bought 2 hifi magazines yesterday and coincidentally in one of them, I believe it was in the HiFiplus issue 47, the Behringer A500 is being looked at... The 2 page review is pretty bad, so maybe you want to take a look at it. I need to double check if it was HiFi+ or the other magazine though..

Bogey

[Victor]

Victor,

I bought 2 hifi magazines yesterday and coincidentally in one of them, I believe it was in the HiFiplus issue 47, the Behringer A500 is being looked at... The 2 page review is pretty bad, so maybe you want to take a look at it. I need to double check if it was HiFi+ or the other magazine though..

Bogey

A500 is bad? Hmmm...Sure I would like to look at the review, - would you have a link to the article?

[sirbogey]

It's in the "Hi Fi World" December 2006, Vol 16 No 10 Issue, page 62 - 65.
or maybe somewhere on www.hi-fiworld.co.uk which is their website..

[Jmac]

Greetings All

I hope that I'm not taking the thread off topic here, but as an regular reader but seldom poster, I would like to add a few thoughts re my own experiences with amps, and differences in sound etc.

IME, the biggest differences in any given setup and return for the dollar spent is with the speakers and the room.

Amps and CD players do sound different, but relative to the speakers and the room, those differences are small indeed.

Cables and stands make a difference to the sound as well, but in the context of CD players and amps, those differences are even smaller again.

I"ve been 'into' music and Hifi in the home now for near on forty years, and initially became interested simply because as a trained classical musician in three disciplines, I was interested in better than 'average' playback in the home from a HiFi system.

I've had numerous setups over the years, my last being a full Naim-Audio system, which I've had ten happy years with. However, as well as being a classical music lover, I've also developed a strong interest in movies in the home as well over the last few years, a situation which lead to the purchase of some Sony ES components as an add on to the Naim setup for HT purposes.

The interesting bit is that for a long time I looked down my nose at the Sony kit, as regards it being 'serious' Hifi kit, as it didn't have a stellar reputation on Hifi forae, and because I own Naim-Audio, which whilst arguably idiosyncratic re it's approach to sound, is also arguably, one of the perceived 'best' brands out their in HiFi land.

Despite not really having the space with apartment living, at one stage I felt the ES Sony kit was being a bit wasted as regards just using it via the DVD player for decoding purposes, and using pre-outs for the Naim kit for the front channels re HT, and thought of somehow fitting in extra speakers to create two separate systems for 2 channel music and HT respectively.

Hence, I gave the ES Sony kit some serious 2 channel music audition time, and found to my horror (considering the very substantial difference in price) that as far as I could assess/judge it both objectively and subjectively that it actually sounded better/ did a better job of recreating music in the home in terms of involving, believable, realistic and natural sound, than the much more expensive Naim kit.

I am now building one system for 2 channel RBCD, 2 channel and multi-channel SACD, and HT/movies, which the ES Sony kit handles with great aplomb, and selling the Naim.

My thoughts these days are that at then end of the day, the differences between the top of the line products from an mainstream manufacturer, such as Rotel, Sony, Denon, Yamaha etc, and a so called specialist manufacturer such as Naim, are quite few, when assesed from an design, engineering, parts quality, and sound quality point of view.

I have no illusions about Sony, in so far as their raison de etre is not really that of a high end manufacturer, however they can, and do, turn out such components; unfortunately though, a lot of what they make at the very high end never makes it out of Japan sadly.

I never thought that a mere 'Sony' could compete with Naim, yet not only does it, it betters it into the bargain, and does it for many, many thousands less in cost.

All IMHO of course!

Others will disagree, but I'd be looking at say the new Rotel digital/Class D amps before I'd be spending much bigger bucks on the likes of Krell, Conrad Johnson, Classe etc, simply because a lot of what one is buying IMHO, is the exclusivity and prestige that is involved, rather than any innate superiority of engineering, design, parts quality, or at the end of the day OVERALL sound quality. Different, yes, but better OVERALL? - well I'm not so sure of that, not from what I've been hearing from my ES Sony digital amp v's my analogue Naim kit.

Anyway, it's all good, just thought I'd toss my opinion/experiences into the thread, maybe some of it will resonate with you.

Best Regards

John.. :T

[warnerwh]

John: You are completely correct regarding what's important in a high end audio system. Room/speakers is the Major priority. You have me beat by almost a decade in this hobby and you definitely know what you're talking about. It's sad that so many people want to upgrade electronics when their room is the problem.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it but many switching amps are very sensitive to the load. In other words depending on the speaker and cable the amp will act differently. I don't know if the Rotel digital amps have this problem and I think the Ucd amps are ok here. This months Absolute Sound has alot of discussion between designers and reviewers about switching amps. There's also several digital amplifier reviews.

In my opinion I don't want an amp that's reactive to the load. This can make for a "nicer" sound but is not accurate. Also people like me who listen to alot of FM have the issue of the switching noise. This can ruin FM for you. I know the Nuforce amps are notorious for it. Just my thoughts. Great post btw.

[Jmac]

warnerh said:

I'm not sure if you're aware of it but many switching amps are very sensitive to the load. In other words depending on the speaker and cable the amp will act differently

Firstly, thank you for your kind comments. Yes, I'm aware of this issue; it is one of the disadvantages of a pure digital amp, such as the digital Sony S-Master Pro designs, and also the Danish TacT, and Lyngdorf amps, which basically share the same operating principles of a zero feedback design.

The so called 'digital' or rather analogue/digital switching amps such as the Nuforce, Rotels (with the B&O ICE technology) and other designs use feedback, and hence the interaction of the speaker with the output transformer of the amp used to filter out the switching noise, is more or less negated as I understand it.

In my opinion I don't want an amp that's reactive to the load. This can make for a "nicer" sound but is not accurate.

I tend to agree; it is also a problem as I understand it for valve amps.

However, in the real world, having seen some graphs, it appears the problem is fairly benign; we're talking about a 0.5db drop in frequency around 20khz for a speaker with an nominal 8ohm impedance v's one with 4ohms impedance. The Sony is rated, or rather they advise in the manual that it will be at it's 'best' with 8ohm nominal speakers - this is where the frequency response graph is perfectly flat to all intents and purposes as regards the effect of the output filter.

Presently I'm still using my Naim SBL loudspeakers, which are a nominal 6ohm load, with 88db sensitivity. Along with the rest of the naim kit, these will hopefully shortly be gone; the speakers on my short list (awaiting home demo) are the B&W 804/803s models, which from intial detailed audition in the shop, from anecdotal evidence from the net, and from my own thoughts re the sound balance and how they would compliment each other, seem to be an ideal match, and with an 8ohm nominal load, quite suitable (even though at some frequencies the load drops to 3 ohms or so).

But yes, it is a disadvantage to some degree. On the other hand, when using it with my main source, which is a Sony DVP-NS9100ES player, and the iLink/iEEE 1394 interface, which gives a very low jitter figure connection indeed, sounding much, much better than either SPDIF/Toslink optical, or analogue connections, one has in effect, a pure digital chain from the disc, through to the amplifier output filter/loudspeaker terminals.

This really comes to the fore when using SACD's, as the amp utilises the same principles of one bit SACD technology for the amplication, i.e. DSD, and hence an SACD disc, is DSD from disc to output filter/loudspeaker terminals with no intermediate conversions as I understand it.

The results have to be heard to be believed; it's an stunningly fast, dynamic, bright, incredibly transparent, open, but smooth and warm sound, with a very full, palpable, textured and entirely natural presentation of timbral and tonal colour, with some of the highest resolution I've ever heard from any kit anywhere, regardless of badge or price.

Not that I'm saying it can't be bettered; I'm sure it can, but the question to my mind would be by how much, and if it would be in every area of assesable performance, and what would it cost to achieve it?

It's sure not perfect, but I am very well pleased indeed, despite the lack of HiFi kudos re the badge. If the B&W's work out with it, I am going to be in HiFi and music heaven!

Thank you again for your kind coments

Best Regards

John..

[bigburner]

Interesting comments John. You should post more often!

Nigel.

[Ralph]

Well, as far as Bryston Amps, we have had one with a hum. Sent it in for a free repair. (10 yrs. later)
The Rotel amps fail quit often. As does their preamps. I see them in & out all the time. I'm not saying every one fails, but more than krell or Bryston.

[warnerwh]

As stated in Absolute Sound the reason for the wide disparity in opinions of the digital amps can probably be traced to how they react with different loads. This may or may not be good.

In my opinion I'd rather start with accurate and make sure my room acoustics were as good as I could get them. I also use a Behringer DEQ 2496 to help tame room modes. Between the treatment and the Behringer unit you can do quite alot.

Of course with a digital equalizer you can adjust the anomolies in the frequency response of a digital amp also. I'm not convinced the frequency response is the only non linearity of the switching amps though.

Guess I'm too conservative. Been at this for over 3 decades and making a switch into a new technology is difficult. The widely varying opinions don't make it any easier. I was offered some Nuforce 9.02's I believe to try in my system and I turned it down after I read all the posts on the Nuforce forum at audiocircle.

[gianni]

As stated in Absolute Sound the reason for the wide disparity in opinions of the digital amps can probably be traced to how they react with different loads. This may or may not be good.

In my opinion I'd rather start with accurate and make sure my room acoustics were as good as I could get them. I also use a Behringer DEQ 2496 to help tame room modes. Between the treatment and the Behringer unit you can do quite alot.

Of course with a digital equalizer you can adjust the anomolies in the frequency response of a digital amp also. I'm not convinced the frequency response is the only non linearity of the switching amps though.

Guess I'm too conservative. Been at this for over 3 decades and making a switch into a new technology is difficult. The widely varying opinions don't make it any easier. I was offered some Nuforce 9.02's I believe to try in my system and I turned it down after I read all the posts on the Nuforce forum at audiocircle.

Why let those varying opinions keep you from passing up the opportunity to have a listen in your system and draw your own conclusion? I know if I were offered a pair to try, I would accept. All the varying opinions tend to make even more curious. Not that I want a pair of 9.02's - but the mixed reviews do make me curious to see how they'd sound in my system. I'm curious about class D in general even though I am slightly skeptical.

[warnerwh]

The reason I turned down the offer on the Nuforce amps had been because I listen to FM jazz radio daily. Even Nuforce admits the RFI can cause problems. I do have quad shielded cable coming from my antenna but the rfi is broadcast through the speaker wires. If FM tuner performance weren't so important I would have auditioned them.

I'm skeptical also. I've been in this hobby too long to jump ship on the tried and true linear amps. Actually I use a hybrid on my planar/ribbon section of my speakers but the tubes in the input stage are actually superior to transistors in this role.

As far as I'm concerned I'd not care what any one else likes. When I say something being new here and nobody knows me please remember these are my opinions only. There's alot of happy people with switching amps as well as a few people that I respect owning them. To me however it would bother me to have an amp that's not stable into various loads.

I should add that I've heard tube amps have liked the sound to the point of considering trying a pure tube amp on the top portion of my speakers. And as we all know tube amps aren't known for their linearity

[gianni]

The reason I turned down the offer on the Nuforce amps had been because I listen to FM jazz radio daily. Even Nuforce admits the RFI can cause problems. I do have quad shielded cable coming from my antenna but the rfi is broadcast through the speaker wires. If FM tuner performance weren't so important I would have auditioned them.

I know this is a known issue with these amps. Since you are a regular FM listener, I can completely understand why you passed on the demo. Unfortunately for me, I'm in an area with terrible FM reception so that is not an issue. I still would like to hear these given all the chatter, more from a standpoint to see what class D is like in it's various incarnations. At the end of the day though, I'm taking the stance that class D still has alot to prove and that the linear amps are still a good safe bet.

[warnerwh]

Another problem may be resale. Being as most of us realize Class D amps have alot of evolutionary changes on the way the value of prior models goes down exponentially.