Any recommendations for a veneer vendor...

[CADman_ks]

Anyone have any online suppliers that they can highly recommend for buying veneer from?

I am not local to Rockler or Woodcraft or anyone like that, so for me, it's going to be online only.

Also, any recommendations on type? Paper backed or 2 ply?

CADman_ks

[JonMarsh]

There's a ton of discussion on this back in the Ardent thread- I'll have to go look to sort out the consensus. There are good online vendors with lots of options, if you don't live near a Woodcraft. OTOTH, ordering from Woodcraft is also a solid option.

Whether you chose paper backed or solid depends on your skill level, the veneering technique you plan to use, etc. I prefer solid, but if you want to go the iron on route, paper back would be the way to go.

[CADman_ks]

There's a ton of discussion on this back in the Ardent thread- I'll have to go look to sort out the consensus. There are good online vendors with lots of options, if you don't live near a Woodcraft. OTOTH, ordering from Woodcraft is also a solid option.
....

I'll go and look at that thread. That is hard to search for with search tools, because the word "veneer" shows up in about 1/2 the DIY threads.

...
Whether you chose paper backed or solid depends on your skill level, the veneering technique you plan to use, etc. I prefer solid, but if you want to go the iron on route, paper back would be the way to go.

Do you use contact cement then if you go solid?

While this will be my first "rodeo" with veneer, I like to think that I'm somewhat skilled as well, or at least understand the process anyways.

I have put down formica before, so I at least have some experience with a similar process. Trimming formica is a little bit different deal though, than trimming veneer.

CADman_ks

[cjd]

I've been poring over the tips at joewoodworker.com lately, and his business-side is veneersupplies.com - prices are quite good, and he has a specialty iron-on glue that looks to work well even with un-backed veneer, as well as an alternate to contact cement if you want something that's not cold-press (think a modern hide-glue/hammer veneer process)

On the other hand, joewoodworker also has super plans for building your own vacuum bag setup which would allow you to use the cold press stuff.

Even if you don't shop there, check out the tips side. Tons of good info.

tape-ease is another online vendor many like.

[CADman_ks]

I've been poring over the tips at joewoodworker.com lately, and his business-side is veneersupplies.com - prices are quite good, and he has a specialty iron-on glue that looks to work well even with un-backed veneer, as well as an alternate to contact cement if you want something that's not cold-press (think a modern hide-glue/hammer veneer process)
...

I've been to joewoodworker and somehow I missed the business side of things. I guess that I was only focused on the tips side. I'll have to check that out.

...

tape-ease is another online vendor many like.

Tape-Ease does seem to have some fairly good prices. It's good to hear that people have had good luck with them...

CADman_ks

[Evil Twin]

I'll go and look at that thread. That is hard to search for with search tools, because the word "veneer" shows up in about 1/2 the DIY threads.



Do you use contact cement then if you go solid?

While this will be my first "rodeo" with veneer, I like to think that I'm somewhat skilled as well, or at least understand the process anyways.

I have put down formica before, so I at least have some experience with a similar process. Trimming formica is a little bit different deal though, than trimming veneer.

CADman_ks

I dont' use contact cement EVER! (well, I did in the early 70's... live and learn).

For iron on, standard PVA glue like Titebond or Titebond II works well, but for more traditional style work, I like the Titebond veneer glue. Be careful, it has a definite shelf life.

Joewoodworker stuff appears to be pretty good, as CJD noted, there on my check out more list, but being able to buy locally, never went there in the end. I did a lot of reading there, it's a useful site.

[Hank]

I've used Tape-Ease for years with no regrets. I used another one and when the name pops into my feeble memory, I'll edit this post.

I HATE to run counter to Darth, but I've always used contact cement with zero problems. Good ventilation is a must, however. I used the Joe stuff - I think it's called Heat-Lock and it worked, but had to buy a half gallon minimum and the remainder went bad after several months on the garage shelf.

[CraigJ]

CADman_ks,

I've had good luck using Tape-Ease. The iron on method is fairly easy and Pete Mazz has an excellent sticky on it:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=172379&postcount=189

Additional info can be found in the Archive of Reference Threads...located here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19225

Cj

not quite a "rodeo" but the first 2.5 minutes should show how easy the iron on method is;

[Sylvan]

I used Tape-Ease also for my latest build. I'm happy with the experience.

[CADman_ks]

Anyone ever used these guys:

https://www.monsterwoodshop.com/

They seem to have some really nice prices.

You can get quarter sawn red oak from them for about what rift cut is at tape-ease.

CADman_ks

[Hank]

No, but I remembered the other source that I've used: Oakwood Veneer:

http://oakwoodveneer.com/prices.html

[CADman_ks]

No, but I remembered the other source that I've used: Oakwood Veneer:
http://oakwoodveneer.com/prices.html

Yeah, I've checked them out as well.

Looks like it's time to start sharpening the pencil, and see who's the best, and get that stuff ordered...

CADman_ks

[Rolex]

If you want less expensive prices and are willing to spend time learning, www.certainlywood.com sells unbacked veneer. It's the route I've gone over the years. I would NEVER recommend someone get into unbacked veneering without a vacuum press though. I've tried many different techniques with unbacked and also learned many, many hard lessons.

I like the fact that the edge detail is unmatched by any veneer that has been backed, and also that I get to create my own seams.

[Hank]

VERY nice, Rolex. Unfortunately I've never had the time to learn nor the desire to get into the vacuum press thing. Obviously you've mastered it.

[CADman_ks]

If you want less expensive prices and are willing to spend time learning, www.certainlywood.com sells unbacked veneer. It's the route I've gone over the years. I would NEVER recommend someone get into unbacked veneering without a vacuum press though. I've tried many different techniques with unbacked and also learned many, many hard lessons.

I like the fact that the edge detail is unmatched by any veneer that has been backed, and also that I get to create my own seams.

That IS very nice looking indeed.

I actually saw certainlywood.com, and then I realized that they were unbacked only. For a brief moment, I had a lapse of sanity, and I thought about getting veneer from there, and learning how to do it that way. Then, reality pulled me around, and I had the foresight to realize that since this is my first real veneering job (I've done edge banding before), I really need to stick to the simple things right now, and I think that means using paper backed this first time.

While that may not be ideal, and some would argue that's not real veneer, I think that I need to learn what I'm doing before I progress up to the hard stuff. Couple that with the fact that I don't have a vacuum press, and PB really seems like a no-brainer at this point.

Thank for the information!!!

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

...

I like the fact that the edge detail is unmatched by any veneer that has been backed, and also that I get to create my own seams. ...

I forgot to add that this is one of the reasons that I originally thought about going this route. This allows you to pick and choose how you want to lay it out, and you're not at the mercy of the way that it is on the sheet.

I don't know why this has always impressed me, but I have a pair of Klipsch KG-2's, that have "matching" cabinets. And, amazingly, the cabinets do pretty much match from one to the other. I've always thought that was cool, but it doesn't make them sound any better. Just cool.

I thought that it would be cool to build my current project with matching cabs as well. Again, just cool. Wouldn't make them sound any better either...

CADman_ks

[Tieftoener]

If you want less expensive prices and are willing to spend time learning, www.certainlywood.com sells unbacked veneer. It's the route I've gone over the years. I would NEVER recommend someone get into unbacked veneering without a vacuum press though. I've tried many different techniques with unbacked and also learned many, many hard lessons.

I like the fact that the edge detail is unmatched by any veneer that has been backed, and also that I get to create my own seams.

I also would put a vote in for Certainly Wood. Love their products, and always courteous to me on the phone; tell them what you need, and they find it for you. :T

I don't have a vacuum press, and have had good success. Maybe I don't know what to look for though - I certainly don't claim that my results are perfect. I like the fact that there is real thickness to the veneer, allowing you to sand down smooth as a baby's butt without concern for breaking through to the paper backing. I also love the plethora of exotic options they have.

[CADman_ks]

I also would put a vote in for Certainly Wood. Love their products, and always courteous to me on the phone; tell them what you need, and they find it for you. :T

I don't have a vacuum press, and have had good success. Maybe I don't know what to look for though - I certainly don't claim that my results are perfect. I like the fact that there is real thickness to the veneer, allowing you to sand down smooth as a baby's butt without concern for breaking through to the paper backing. I also love the plethora of exotic options they have.

OK, this interests me. What's your method then for putting it on? Iron on with PVA, or a contact type adhesive?

I would like to use the iron method, since I'm wanting the sides to "match" as I go around, and I think that gives me a little bit of flexibility to move it around to the "exact" spot that I want, and then start ironing.

Now, since I've never done this before, and only read about it, I'm making a whole lot of assumptions here that I've gathered from others and from reading.

I have done formica before, and I DO have a feeling for just how unforgiving contact cement is, but it DOES work. You had just better be ready, though...

CADman_ks

[Rolex]

OK, this interests me. What's your method then for putting it on? Iron on with PVA, or a contact type adhesive?

I would like to use the iron method, since I'm wanting the sides to "match" as I go around, and I think that gives me a little bit of flexibility to move it around to the "exact" spot that I want, and then start ironing.

Now, since I've never done this before, and only read about it, I'm making a whole lot of assumptions here that I've gathered from others and from reading.

I have done formica before, and I DO have a feeling for just how unforgiving contact cement is, but it DOES work. You had just better be ready, though...

CADman_ks

I think that because this is your first time, I would start with backed veneer. Contact cement is okay, but I prefer the iron on method when I'm using backed veneer. Grab a PVA of your choice. Almost as simple as contact cement, but a lot more forgiveness with the PVA. It dries before you put the veneer on the substrate so you can get placement exactly where you want it.

Cracking during and after veneering is one of the big concerns for me with ironing on unbacked veneer. I've had projects that were fine for the first 6-8 months and then developed cracks down the road. With the press, I've had none of those issues and it's been a number of years now.

[CADman_ks]

I think that because this is your first time, I would start with backed veneer. Contact cement is okay, but I prefer the iron on method when I'm using backed veneer. Grab a PVA of your choice. Almost as simple as contact cement, but a lot more forgiveness with the PVA. It dries before you put the veneer on the substrate so you can get placement exactly where you want it.

Cracking during and after veneering is one of the big concerns for me with ironing on unbacked veneer. I've had projects that were fine for the first 6-8 months and then developed cracks down the road. With the press, I've had none of those issues and it's been a number of years now.

THANKS FOR THE INPUT!!! ;x(

I'm taking all of the advice that I can get. I still think that I'm leaning towards going with paper backed my first time around.

My biggest fear with hot ironing, though, is this cracking issue. I'm not so concerned with the cracking during, as I'm with the cracking AFTER the fact, in the 6-8 months later.

BUT, I do like the idea that you can maneuver it wherever you want, and get it exactly like you like it before you start ironing. That definitely is what is drawing me towards that. I think that the risk is probably worth it...

Thanks again!!!

CADman_ks

[orbifold]

Thanks, CADman, for putting this in just as I am beginning planning to completely re-do my center. (No, I mean it! :B)
Long story for later as to why the re-do, but Rolex' replys are destined to change my plans for the end game. I have always loved your pics, Rolex. Now I get why. The veneer is just wood, no paper. The clincher is the info that years go by without cracks due to correct use of the vac press.

Out go the plan to save $ for a Jess-Em router lift. That stays home-do router table. Now I am saving for one of Joe Woodworker's venturi-based vac pumps and a bag big enough to encompass the U-shaped section once it has been glued up and smoothed, and sealed inside and out.

Planning is such great fun. Mid game is always a pain in the tuckus. Listening to the results is worth it all...

I will post this and it will all make sense later, once their are pics

[Rolex]

You can actually specify the backer material in a lot of different options. Paper is a pretty common one. But, wood is an option as well. Much stiffer because of the thicker back. You'd think that would be a negative. However, I did a pair of large floor standers in very nice curly maple. Okume is a standard wood backer, but I specified bass wood for the backer of the maple. Very similar tone to that of the maple and that went a long way to making a nice edge detail. Still not to the level of unbacked, but a nice compromise.

[zephyrtear]

If you want less expensive prices and are willing to spend time learning, www.certainlywood.com sells unbacked veneer. It's the route I've gone over the years. I would NEVER recommend someone get into unbacked veneering without a vacuum press though. I've tried many different techniques with unbacked and also learned many, many hard lessons.

I like the fact that the edge detail is unmatched by any veneer that has been backed, and also that I get to create my own seams.

Pardon my ignorance but i have have never veneered and have yet to do my first veneer job on my speakers. What do you mean by you create your own seams?

And here in Brazil I've looked all around and have only found unbacked veneer. I've been told that if you glue the veneer and scrape it with a bare mdf peace repeatedly and strongly all around in the direction of the veins of the wood not to ruin the looks it will hold well and remove all bubbles from underneath. Have you ever heard of this or tried it? Now that I read your vacuum press comment I'm kind of skeptical about this method...

[CADman_ks]

Pardon my ignorance but i have have never veneered and have yet to do my first veneer job on my speakers.

...

I'm a greenhorn like you, so I can't answer any of your specific question based on experience.

However, did you see this video from one of the earlier posts in this thread?

CADman,


... the first 2.5 minutes should show how easy the iron on method is; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2an-k5P_n7k

This guy is using paperbacked (as near as I can tell), and he is using a piece of MDF like a scraper, just like you describe. I would think that a piece of MDF wouldn't be that much different than using a veneer scraper. But again, I have no real world experience, so I don't really have anything to back up this claim with...

CADman_ks

[Rolex]

Highlighted in the image below is the seam that I created when I joined two leaves of veneer. This was necessary because the flitch of veneer was not as wide as my cabinet. Therefore I needed to make my own piece of veneer that is wide enough.

Creating your own seams allows for a lot of creativity. You can create different patterns with the veneer, or hide the seam almost completely if you are using the species of veneer that allows it.

[Tieftoener]

OK, this interests me. What's your method then for putting it on? Iron on with PVA, or a contact type adhesive?

I would like to use the iron method, since I'm wanting the sides to "match" as I go around, and I think that gives me a little bit of flexibility to move it around to the "exact" spot that I want, and then start ironing.

Now, since I've never done this before, and only read about it, I'm making a whole lot of assumptions here that I've gathered from others and from reading.

I have done formica before, and I DO have a feeling for just how unforgiving contact cement is, but it DOES work. You had just better be ready, though...

CADman_ks

I normally use contact cement. I know it doesn't last forever, but I've never had a piece peel up after application in my 15 yrs of woodworking and veneering with it. I don't intend to say or imply that I am a "professional," just to say that in that amount of time, I haven't had a problem. You have to apply liberal coats to both sides and make sure there's plenty of adhesive left on after it soaks in (especially with un-backed veneer - the wood sucks it in like a sponge - it always amazes me how many coats it takes!). Another set of hands is crucial to help elevate the unapplied sections. A good J-roller and lots of elbow grease go a long way to flatten out the bubbles. I often have the cabinet on the floor and apply the majority of my 220 lbs to the roller - it takes lots of muscle control to not fall off the edges and crack the veneer (be careful - experience talking here :W ). I go over it with the J-roller immediately, obviously, but I also come back about 15 min later to check if any bubbles have come up. And then there's always an iron+T-shirt to heat up the glue through the veneer if needed. Then roll it immedately. For that to work, you really need to make sure you have enough glue on before you bond the veneer. Too much glue (oozing goo) isn't good either. I look for a nice glaze with the appearance of ~3 coats of satin polyurethane when the contact cement is tacky dry. Large pieces present difficulty. Keeping enough cement on the piece as it wicks into the wood and keeping it "wet" on large piece of veneer and the subsequent substrate you're bonding to (presumably another "sponge" like MDF) wears on the patience. It seems like it'll never end. Another set of hands + brush helps with the application on large pieces too.

For small, flat pieces, I just use normal Elmer's wood or PVA glue and apply the veneer with the glue wet. I then put a couple large sheets of MDF and lots of bracing a Caterpillar mining dumptruck worth of clamps on it. I've done this with paper-backed and un-backed veneer, and it works great. Curved pieces are another matter, but flat sides aren't a problem.

I finish with Polyurethane mostly. I don't like the acrylic stuff; it dries without yellowing (which I do like), but it just doesn't seem to have the same luster to me. I find it difficult to build up a thick-looking finish with acrylic; it takes 2x as many coats, in my opinion.

I know the poly and contact cement don't get along long-term and can tend to de-laminate, but so far so good. The way I see it, it'll give me an excuse to build another pair of speakers down the road :lol:

I'm no pro at this... just sharing my experience. HTH.

[CADman_ks]

...

I'm no pro at this... just sharing my experience. HTH.

Sometimes, it's not necessarily about being a "pro", but rather real world experience, and in my eyes, that makes people with real world experience somewhat professionals. This is not a slam on true professionals on this forum, or anyone who does this for a living, but often the "professional" approach to something is far to complicated for novices, or requires tools that the normal novice doesn't posses. You end up buying all of this stuff to only do a job a couple of times, and often at the end of the day, it ended up being a lot harder than you wanted, because you're trying to do it the professional way. Us novices have to face the facts: sometimes the professional way is just out of the reach of us novices.

This is what I love about THIS forum. A LOT of people sharing invaluable advice, and not making the non-pro users feel like idiots.

Tieftoener, ALL GREAT INFORMATION!, and THANK YOU!!! :thanku:

[CADman_ks]

Veener rich!!!

Well, my hunt for veneer is now over, so I'm at least veneer rich for the moment.

On a whim, I called a local cabinet shop to see if they might have some 4x8 sheets of red oak that I could buy from them. He said that they did, and they would sell them to me for $45/ea.

I went there and looked, and it's paperbacked: check; it appears to be flat cut: check (or at least I can live with the grain pattern); the price is right: check.

So, all of this talk about online vendors, and I end buying it locally. Go figure. :huh:

Now, I need to get my cabs done, and get it laid on there...

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

Another vendor...

I just got my veneer home, and I was looking for the supplier name, to see if it was anyone that has already been mentioned.

This stuff came from a company called EdgeMate:

http://www.edgemate.com/

Seems to be on par with the other stuff out there. This company does give a discount on 2 sheets, and a bigger discount at 10...

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

...

On a whim, I called a local cabinet shop ...

I've bought lacquer from this cabinet shop before.

So, while I was there, I also asked if they would sell me any lacquer for finishing, and they said that they would. The nice thing about buying it from them is that they have it already catalyzed, and you don't have to buy that as well.

Of course, the one issue with that is that it has a shelf life, once it's catalyzed. But, the way to get around that is to just buy as much as you need. If you run out, you can always go back and get some more.

If you're a lacquer user, this is actually a pretty good outlet for lacquer, if you have a local place to buy it...

CADman_ks

[PMazz]

These days I wouldn't re-sell lacquer meant for industry to a non-pro unless it was something anyone could buy off the shelf. The veneer is another story. Professional shops have access to vendors that do not sell retail.

Sometimes the only difference between pros and hobbyists is that pros need to make money doing it.

[CADman_ks]

...

Sometimes the only difference between pros and hobbyists is that pros need to make money doing it.

I'm assuming that they are making money off of me when I buy it from them.

It is no lie, though, that the stuff that I get from them is better than the stuff that I used off-the-shelf. I only used off-the-shelf once, and as long as they will sell me lacquer, I'm buying it from them. The stuff they have does just work better...

CADman_ks

[orbifold]

Cadman,

Take a look at Target Coatings, http://www.targetcoatings.com/
I used to use a pre-catalyzed lacquer and loved it, but now I strictly use this no-lacquer thinner, h2o based stuff. Once you clean up with water, you will appreciate the change. You can also brag that you drink the thinner :B

I have found I can polish this almost as simply as the 'bad' stuff (using enough coats, of course!) and that is the kicker for me. I seriously recommend using this because of the no organic volatiles released into the atmosphere-especially the part the spray-guy (you) is breathing, even with a good respirator. once you are done and take off the mask, while you are cleaning up, your are taking in bad stuff at that time. Also, the lacquer thinner is just expensive.

you can tint the stuff with Trans-tint, or make opaque black or colors with Mixol colorants, just like the nitro-based material, and that stuff just actually got too hard for me to find.

[CADman_ks]

Cadman,

Take a look at Target Coatings, http://www.targetcoatings.com/
I used to use a pre-catalyzed lacquer and loved it, but now I strictly use this no-lacquer thinner, h2o based stuff. Once you clean up with water, you will appreciate the change. You can also brag that you drink the thinner :B

...

WOW. I don't know that I can try water based lacquer. That just doesn't sound like it would work. Water and lacquer don't even belong in the same sentence, let alone TOGETHER! :E

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE catalyzed lacquer, and the way that it goes on. One thing that I really really like about it is that IF it does run on you, you can spray it on heavy in that area, and wipe it off with a rag, and then IMMEDIATELY re-apply. It will "melt" away the edges, and you'll have a hard time seeing where that spot was by the time that you're done, unless of course, it's really bad.

Lacquer is almost dry when it comes out of the end of the gun. Does water based dry that quickly? Quick drying is another thing that I like about lacquer.

I also like the fact that the next layer dissolves the layer below it. So, when you're done, you basically end up with ONE layer, just super thick or thicker, depending on how many coats you put. Lacquer does / can be built up pretty quickly as well, without much fear of it looking bad. That's NOT the way that poly-urethane works, regardless of oil based or water based. Each coat goes on top of another coat.

I'm just scared to try it, since I KNOW what's going to happen with catalyzed lacquer.

...

I have found I can polish this almost as simply as the 'bad' stuff (using enough coats, of course!) and that is the kicker for me. I seriously recommend using this because of the no organic volatiles released into the atmosphere-especially the part the spray-guy (you) is breathing, even with a good respirator. once you are done and take off the mask, while you are cleaning up, your are taking in bad stuff at that time. Also, the lacquer thinner is just expensive.

...

I'm not going to polish these cabs out, so I'm not as concerned about that aspect of it. As for the mask, that's something that I already have, and using a mask isn't the end of the world either.

....

you can tint the stuff with Trans-tint, or make opaque black or colors with Mixol colorants, just like the nitro-based material, and that stuff just actually got too hard for me to find.

Tinting isn't an issue for me either in this case, but this is good information to know.

I'll look into the water based stuff some more, but it's gonna be a hard sell.

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

GREAT link on veneering...

I don't know if this link is posted anywhere on this site, but I came across this last weekend while doing some research on veneering.

I do have the PMazz link bookmarked from this site, and while that's GREAT information (from a pro, no less), sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words, and I ran onto the site below:

https://www.afterness.com/audio/veneering.html

This link has a lot of great pictures, and just a general step-by-step.

I think that this fella is a member here as well...

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

Question about jointing edges...

I often see people talking about jointing the edges when you're laying two pieces side by side. That makes sense with solid wood veener. You have to get those two edges trued up.

I'm going to need to do this with a couple of pieces of veneer that I have, but mine is paper backed. I have to do this on end grain when I do it, which probably makes it that much more difficult.

But, how do really go about that? With a jointer?, or do you use something sharp and cut them both at the time, leaving the two cuts exact, even if they are not perfectly straight?

CADman_ks

[cjd]

veneer saw.

[Hank]

I've done that a couple of times - overlapped the veneer edges a couple of inches, then using a straight edge and single edge razor blade or utility knife with a new blade, cut through both pieces, then after contact cement application, they lined up perfectly.